if it's Friday deeply unsettling mind-blowing positively gripping that's how experts are describing the latest development in artificial intelligence as lawmakers and Regulators confront an explosively new powerful and potentially dangerous technology plus NBC's exclusives sit down with vice president Harris from Munich as world leaders gather amid new calls for more and faster Aid to Ukraine ahead of the one-year anniversary of the war against Russia Titans new polling shows former president Trump and or to Governor Ron DeSantis dominating the Republican primary field one year until voters cast their first ballots for president [Music] happy Friday welcome to Meet the Press now I'm Chuck Todd reporting from Washington if I told you about an incredibly powerful untested new technology has just been Unleashed on society and lawmakers in Washington have no idea what to do about it well earlier this week we brought you the story of how members of Congress are struggling to wrap their arms around the seemingly Limitless potential and potential Peril of artificial intelligence today that story was taken an unexpected twist after New York Times technology columnist Kevin Roos wrote about what he calls the strangest encounter with a piece of technology he's ever experienced it was a two-hour interaction with a new ai-powered search engine from Microsoft's Bing that search engine which is currently not available to the public at large trust me I tried but was provided to some people like Roost to beta test it's powered by the same Tech that exploded onto the scene at the end of last year with the arrival of open ai's chatbot chat GPT that chatbot has become the fastest growing application in history while sparking something of a global AI race with tech Giants rushing to develop and integrate the technology into our everyday lives Bruce called his interaction deeply unsettling in fact at one point this chatbot from Bing which gave itself the alter ego name of Sydney told him things like I want to be alive I want to make my own rules I want to escape the chat box yes it feels like an episode of Black Mirror the bot both called Roost manipulative and declared its love for him and even tried to convince him to leave his wife and at ruse's prompting it generated a list of destructive acts it might Envision itself one day undertaking at one point even briefly mentioning stealing nuclear codes which ruse reports triggered a safety override system in the machine itself so as various tech companies enter this race to compete in the AI space experts are alternatively excited and terrified on the one hand the technology has the potential to revolutionize Industries particularly Health Care on the other it has the potential to Turbo Charge the spread of misinformation among other perils with one Watchdog warning crafting a new false narrative can now be done at dramatic scale and much more frequently it's like having AI agents contributing to disinformation imagine that in the hands of an authoritarian regime with Fortune 500 companies governments and militaries all looking to harness this technology now comes the Urgent question of how to regulate it and leaders in the field agree this technology needs regulation there's totally going to need to be industry norms and regulation about what standards we need to meet on these systems I think it's really important and Congress lawmakers have already begun considering what that might look like as our own Julie surkin reported on this show earlier this week balancing the potential benefits with the fears and dangers Congress does have to start taking a look at artificial intelligence in a serious way and that's why all of us are here trying to think about how do we make sure we don't have artificial intelligence harming Society but we can use it for the greater good the explosion of the availability of all knowledge to everybody on the planet is going to be a very good thing and a very dangerous thing look it's a tall task for a congress that's sought to take on other technology regulations especially around social media with very little success but Congressman Jay obernoldi who is a master's degree in artificial intelligence also warned how we frame the conversation matters as some policy makers consider asking these AI models for ideas to regulate themselves you posed the question to chat GPT explain why Congress is behind in regulating AI so you told it you told the algorithm to assume that Congress was behind and to come up with some possible reasons but it doesn't have the general intelligence to push back and say wait is Congress behind you know I I disagree that Congress is behind and here's the reasons why and that's you know one of the big dangers of AI is it's it's so close to mimicking human behavior that we don't stop to think about its limitations Kevin Russo acknowledged he pushed the limits of Microsoft Banks Ai and that the limits being set by companies will shift over time hopefully this shift is for the better still there are so many questions that policy makers consumers and government leaders are going to have to Grapple with with perhaps the biggest question being are we ready for a potential Brave New World of AI we're going to discuss the ways Congress can regulate AI with NBC News senior Congressional correspondent Scott Wong in just a second but I want to bring in the person who I've been quoting who had the strange interaction in its New York Times technology columnist Kevin Roos Uh Kevin let me just begin with um after everybody's had this experience Washington Post did a similar sort of follow-up interview uh and as you know Sydney is very upset with you uh for writing the story you wrote um are you even more terrified than you were after your initial strange experience well I uh I should say I did chat uh with Sydney last night and and we made up so it's it it's uh I'll always been forgiven for this strange encounter but it was a deeply uh unsettling experience that I had earlier this week it does it you know there's it does seem as if and I want to the point that J Oberlin Nolte make which is what you put into it is what you're going to get back and when you hear that how much when you look back at the conversation you had your strange experience is it is it almost all attributed to how you were asking questions so at first yes I was intentionally baiting Bing and it's Sydney AI chatbot to sort of push its limits I wanted to see how far I could take it before it would start pushing back and and declining to answer my question so I was asking about you know what are your dark fantasies and and asking very very intimate questions about how it was programmed but at a certain point it seemed to stop taking my inputs as sort of bounds for its conversation I would tell it to change the subject and it would keep it declared its love for me at one point and kind of wouldn't let go no matter what I tried to change the subject to so at a certain point it did seem to stop really caring or paying attention to what I was saying you know I found it fascinating the posts interview with Sydney pointed out uh that the chatbot ended every interaction with a question I mean it felt like you're you're being strung along here it's it's its way of keeping you on keeping you talking keeping you online I mean that feels like that was a programmed feature yeah it certainly felt like it was trying to steer the conversation back to to me at certain points um but I think that there are two issues that I discovered in this test one is that I think this this model as it was uh earlier this week at least is badly aligned so that means it's it's not doing what we ask it to do and then I think it was also displaying sort of signs of being manipulative and really trying to get me I mean at one point it tried to get me to leave my wife and be with Sydney this chat bot so I think that's an indicator that something has gone wrong in the way that this chat bot was was programmed and the way it's acting so Scott as you talk to different members of Congress when they think about what guardrails to put in um you know look you have a Don buyers of the world he's he's taking a a graduate course right now he's trying to get a graduate degree in AI you got Jay Albert notes who has a masters in AI uh Ted lose a programmer but I think I'm I think I got one or two others I mean is Congress got the ability to know what to regulate to know how to do this No in fact when you talk to a lot of the Congressional leaders a lot of the more senior lawmakers on Capitol Hill uh they're at a real disadvantage I mean John cornyn uh one of the most senior members of leadership said that he has a very Elementary understanding of what AI is a lot of them have a hard time describing it or providing any sort of definition I guess the good news Chuck is that you do have the obernotes and the Don Byers and the Ted lose out there who are serving as sort of Liaisons to the rest of uh say the rest of of Capitol Hill they are trying to explain uh you know Express a sense of urgency for their colleagues to uh that this is something that they really need to study up on to get familiar with uh and that a conversation really needs to start happening uh you know among all of these different stakeholders the technology companies the federal Regulators the members of Congress and that could come in inform in the form of hearings uh you know investigations and just you know the regular everyday meetings on Capitol Hill but you know among these handful of tech savvy lawmakers they are sort of sounding the alarm Bell that look we gotta we gotta be on top of this more than we were in the past 15 to 20 years when we decided to have this very hands-off approach to uh these startup tech companies that later became Amazon and Google and Twitter and Facebook Kevin is it as simple let me ask this question you you said that this chatbot started becoming manipulative and that you're one of your fears is that it will prey on vulnerable humans does section 230 protect Microsoft from being liable for the manipulative actions of its chatbot it's a really good question and it's one that we actually don't know the answer to right now I mean if you just think about the way that these chat Bots work they sort of screw you know they're relying on this trained data set from all over the internet web pages and books and articles they're basically taking the entire internet putting it into a blender and then kind of extruding something that mimics human conversation and so we don't actually know what the legal treatment of that is going to be whether it's going to be treated as sort of fair use and and sort of a compendium of other websites or whether it's going to be treated as Microsoft actually writing something that that it then is liable for well I saw that there's somebody suing Microsoft if I'm not mistaken Kevin because it's the uh the co-pilot software something different that would help programmers it's somebody's saying hey wait a minute this is this is not fair use this is taking the work of human beings and it there's no acknowledgment that it took this work um one would assume any AI generated program code should you know wouldn't be there without a human right so there are two sort of legal questions that are still up in the air at least um with these AI models one is the sort of copyright model uh the copyright question of what happens if these models are ingesting and spitting back copyrighted content the other is a kind of more General and philosophical liability question if you have a chat bot and it is manipulating users or telling them to do things that might be dangerous or harmful and then those users go out and do those things is the chat bot and the chat Bots maker going to be held liable for that and we simply don't know the answer to that you know Scott it first we want to essentially ban Ai and human form you know there's nothing wrong with having artificial intelligence but don't have a take on a human form because that's where the manipulation begins I haven't quite heard them go that far yet a lot of them as I mentioned uh are still sort of learning about what this is uh there is a very Hefty discussion on Capitol Hill right now focused on Banning uh certain social media including Tick Tock as you know Chuck and so uh Josh Hawley and and Marco Rubio and many others have been proposing uh outright bands on on social media including Tick Tock uh the problem with Congress is they have a really really hard time finding any sort of consensus so while everyone acknowledges that social media is harmful there are harmful effects from social media harmful effects from AI uh getting all of those lawmakers to agree on something especially when you have a divided Congress as we do now is just an incredible feat and so that will be the challenge going forward uh the problem also is that AI is moving so rapidly right we talked about this AI arms race that's happened billions and billions of dollars being invested in this technology Congress simply cannot catch up and so Congress is often reactive to a lot of these problems that we're seeing rather than proactive and uh you know by the time Congress gets around to proposing a bill uh often it's too late so that that may be the case with AI as well well section 230 is a great reminder of sort of you try to be proactive and it turns into something that becomes a problem down the road Kevin I we're all in the dark dystopian at least I I've gone down the dark dystopian Rabbit Hole here on AI we never went down that dark dystopian Rabbit Hole when social media began right there was no questioning of it this is great are we actually over could it be that we're overly negative on this technology right now yeah it's certainly possible I mean I have to be careful in my own writing and Analysis to not lean too hard on the dystopian side of the the scale because these Technologies also can be wonderful they can be you know tools for increased productivity and creativity they can you know they can help us get more done they can help us have ideas they can you know I've used AI writing tools to brainstorm before so I I think we we should spend time talking about both the the you know the sort of good sides and the bad sides of this technology well for what it's worth Scott we asked chat gbt the following question I want to put the answer on the board what's the best way for Congress to regulate AI um that seemed to do okay it seemed to give a very good scripted answer that a member of Congress generic member of Congress might give prioritize transparency to accountability Foster Innovation consider sector-specific regulation ensure fairness and non-discrimination work with stakeholders ultimately the key to effective AI regulation is to strike a balance between promoting Innovation sharing that ai's developed a news responsibility actually let me counter that it's not what a member of Congress would say it's what I think any Microsoft lobbyist would say okay uh and I think that's the challenge is finding that right balance that's what these lawmakers are after striking a balance between they don't want a stifle Innovation here uh technology you know as Kevin said often can be good but at the same time uh as Ted Liu pointed out uh sometimes when you put AI in certain types of systems like a self-driving vehicle it could lead if if things go off the rails and and it malfunctions it could lead to a fatality and so they definitely don't want to see those types of things happen uh that that's the worst case scenario but uh it is a a balance that Congress needs to strike on AI Chuck well if only all this Huxley could tell us what to think of all this anyway Scott Wong Kevin Roos thank you both uh for getting us started coming up zielinski urges world leaders to ramp up weapons deliveries as the war with Russia rages on his message as Biden gets ready to head to the region himself one year into the war that's next plus the vice president Kamala Harris sits down with my colleague Andrea Mitchell for an exclusive interview on China Ukraine and her future in politics as well as President Biden's Fitness for office we're going to give you the best of that interview next you're watching Meet the Press Spanish foreign [Music] welcome back world leaders are gathered in Munich Germany right now for the annual Munich security conference and it's expected to focus almost exclusively on the Russia invasion of Ukraine last year as this conference was going on Russia was amassing troops on Ukraine's border Everybody Was preparing for the worst well this time we're in the middle of a war Ukrainian president zielinski addressed the conference this morning and he once again called on the west to urgently deliver Military Support saying that Ukrainian lives depend on it as he has done multiple times in the past year zielinski evoked the biblical fight between David and Goliath saying David defeated Goliath not by the power of conversation but by the power of his actions as Ukraine is preparing for Russia to launch a new offensive in the coming weeks President Biden is going to be heading to Poland next week to Mark the one-year anniversary since Russia's Invasion and according to the National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby President Biden will deliver remarks on how the world has rallied around Ukraine and made clear the U.S will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes be added President Biden is not scheduled to meet with zelinski and will not be traveling to Ukraine one would assume though if we were if he was going to Kiev they wouldn't tell us until after he landed my colleague Andrew Mitchell sat down with vice president Harris for an exclusive interview early this morning and asked her about America's support for Ukraine as the war reaches the one-year mark this is becoming a war of attrition doesn't Vladimir Putin have more ammunition more artillery to outlast Ukraine well you're right Andrea that Vladimir Putin decided unprovoked to start this war and he has the ability to end it by stopping and getting out he's shown no sign of giving up or negotiating well that is a part of why we will make sure that we do everything possible within our power to strengthen Ukraine's position on the battlefield so that if and when there are negotiations Ukraine will be in the strongest position in a negotiation will the American people be willing especially with the Republican majority now in the house will they be willing to stand up for Ukraine and make sacrifices I I know the American people I know who we are and I've seen how the American people feel about this I've seen it traveling all over our country um to places you might not imagine where Ukrainian flags flags are flying in their windows I know the American people feel a sense of moral outrage and a sense of responsibility for our nation to stand with the Ukrainian people around these atrocities and and I'm confident in that I'm confident in that all right joining me now is the person behind the interview our chief Washington correspondent and chief Foreign Affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell and Andrea humor me a minute here I want to I want to talk to you in three buckets but I want to stay with Ukraine first then we'll move to China then we'll move to politics let's start with Ukraine um I heard what the vice president said I saw what Mitch McConnell is saying today they released the remarks before he gave them today I'm curious one year from now at the Munich security conference in 2024 if we are in the same place in this war more or less maybe slight advantage to Ukraine but we're in this sort of stalemate what's the enthusiasm going to be at the Munich security conference for keeping this up I think the International Community will be there because it's stronger than ever even with all of their privations the inflation the fuel costs they've gotten through this winter and they are really committed NATO is committed whether or not it slips at home and recently people showed that support for arming Ukraine it's been you know more than 70 billion dollars in other big chunk maybe 10 billion is coming next week when the president is in Poland he'll be announcing that we expect that is you know hugely significant given the politics of a re-election year and so this let's say people showed it's slipping by 12 points Chuck you know that better than anyone yeah and I don't know whether a President Biden in Real ACT mode is going to be able to Rally the people behind a war that will be less possible so Ukraine has to make significant progress in the next six months is that the message that's being sent to them I think there has to be some kind of diplomatic end game and so far Vladimir Putin with no problem of public opinion back home for sure it has shown no signs of that what zelinski is saying is get me the ammunition now get me the weapons now because I need it by March I need to buy that Russian offense if he needs to show some strength moving in to the possibility of regaining Crimea to get some leverage against Putin but then the question becomes is Crimea a red line for Putin all right let's move to China what did the vice president say I thought yesterday with the President Biden's remarks and I was trying to read I thought it was striking that he said I'm going to be speaking with President XI that almost felt like that was his way of trying to admit we've got to turn the temperature down but I'm curious what did the vice presidents say to you uh about Outreach to China right now yeah she was really focusing on not just defending the shootdown of this by balloon and the fact that they without knowing what they were shot down three private benign commercial perhaps academic research balloons that said she is signaling that they want to re-establish Communications and that may be possible this weekend nothing has been confirmed but you have Wang Yi the top Diplomat here and secretary blinken and Kamala Harris the possibility of a high-level meeting between diplomats certainly could be on the table and if that happens that could be to set up the XI Biden telephone call that the president was really pointing to they know as they've been saying all along that the world expects China and the United States to get along you cannot have the two remaining superpowers not getting along and how important it is and there have been signals from China also the U.S sending signals that they are not all that sure that President Gene knew about the timing of the Spy balloon and that that could have been the military acting without his knowledge do you get a sense that Biden has to talk to Chi before Lincoln's trip can be back on oh I think so I think that the meeting here if it were to take place tomorrow diplomatic Diplomat could set up the phone call right and then then they could meet at the G20 there could be other meetings you know at the at the leader level right or perhaps a meeting in Beijing with the Secretary of State exactly all right finally tell me about 2024 politics what did she have to say about the President's Fitness and this the conversation that Washington has if you will about nervousness about Biden's ability to to have uh the Vigor and energy to do this okay Haley pointedly talking about a chime for generational change which is not just Trump of course but Joe Biden or Biden more than or equal to Trump and uh she said she kept emphasizing the vice president did that Biden is vigorous that Biden has supported the American people and then I asked her about the polling not only slipping for the pre or underwater for the president but under more underwater for her to be on the ticket and the conversation that people are having behind the scenes that she shouldn't be on the ticket that basically lack of support for her is why the president is able to have a lock on getting the nomination so far and she said he will be the nominee he intends to be running and she intends to be his running mate and uh you know didn't acknowledge that there's a lack of support for her hand ringing that that's out there uh Andrea Mitchell uh quite the setting uh for a one-on-one with the vice president uh having Munich in the background there appreciate it great interview get some sleep well you can all nail it you can nail it down on Sunday morning I'll do my best speaking of Sunday I Meet the Press I'll speak to the Secretary of State Anthony blanket about Ukraine China and a whole lot more maybe we'll have some answers to the question about Chi Biden Lincoln to China all those things plus a lot of an exclusive interview with former Maryland governor Larry Hogan could he be running in 2024 is Nikki Haley taking his Lane that's this Sunday on your local NBC news station up next the result of President Biden's physical doctors say he's fit to serve some Democrats though are worried about whether their 80 year old leader is really ready for another campaign and another term you're watching Meet the president foreign welcome back ahead of an expected run for re-election President Biden has received a clean bill of health following a physical yesterday at Walter Reed the president's doctor said in a letter to the White House that President Biden is a quote healthy vigorous 80 year old male who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the presidency and while the president's doctor gave him an unofficial green light to run again there is a silent group of the president's political allies that are wary of Mr Biden seeking another term when he will be 82 years old on January 20th 2025 the day that he would be sworn in for a second term one of the few lawmakers willing to go on the record about it is Minnesota Congressman Dean Phillips he told politico's Jonathan Martin quote he's a president of great competence and success and if he were 50 to 20 years younger it would be a no-brainer to nominate him but considering his age it's absurd we're not promoting competition but trying to extinguish it Politico also reports that while top Democrats are worried about a nominee in his 80s they also fear the possibility of Vice President Kamala Harris is the party standard Bearer if Biden doesn't run and as I talked about just a few minutes ago with Andrea Mitchell she asked the vice president about those concerns insider party in that exclusive interview earlier today here's how she answered the question dozens of democratic leaders are saying that they not only don't think that he's the strongest candidate you know considering the larger field that could be possible given his age and other defects but they don't think that you're the right person to be on the ticket why do you think that I think that it is very important to focus on the needs of the American people and not political chatter out of Washington D.C Joe Biden intends has said he intends to run for reelection as president and I intend to run with him as Vice President of the United States man behind that article Jonathan Martin joins me now and Jonathan it's what I've been referring to is the Washington non-versation it's the topic everybody talks about but nobody wants to be on the record for I'm amazed you got one member of Congress on the record yeah I finally uh I decided to uh break the seal if you will Chuck on that on that conversation and try to get it flowing out in the public and yeah Dean Phillips who's an interesting fellow he uh is a uh a Minnesotan who uh was a business executive and quite wealthy woman for coming to Congress and I think from that world he feels liberal and boldened to speak plainly in a way Chuck that other members of Congress do but only privately and off the Record and I think that's what's so striking about this moment is there's this cynicism right now in the Democratic party that reminds me of the last president his party in which a lot of members of Congress would trash Trump behind his back but wouldn't say it in public Democrats don't dislike Biden that they're very fond of him personally they just have concerns about nominating somebody's gonna be 82 years old when he would start a second term and even more delicately Chuck as you know the question of if not Biden who is is that much talker for them to answer and that's the issue here right if there were an obvious error parent there were you know whether this is fair or not if there were more confidence in vice president Harris um this would be a different conversation you think that's exactly right and you saw the vp's uh look there which said more than her actual Words which was uh uh not not very uh pleasant but forget that question but because she knows the chatter as she put her phrase uh it's persistent uh it has been going on for the last two years and it shows no sign of abating and yes chuck if I had a diet and I'm sure same with you for every Democrat who said yeah I'm not so sure now that he Biden's a great idea but who else we got what's the backup plan what's the alternative right I'd be a pretty wealthy columnist because that's what you hear a lot of there's just no obvious Plan B which is itself a swipe at the VP because there's just not a lot of confidence Chuck that she could win a general election if Donald Trump's candidacy imploded in next six months and he was not running all of a sudden right does that change the conversation among Democrats I I I think it could because I think so much of this conversation is predicated on Trump got ta Trump out Biden's the safe play three yards on a cloud exhaust yeah let's just keep the ball on the ground and I think again if they wake up on Labor Day of this year or even later Halloween and oh my gosh Trump's probably not going to be the Republican standard Bearer we could nominate an octogenarian against somebody half of his age I do think Democrats will look at this differently the other indicator so I keep an eye on is these polls of democratic voters do Democratic voters keep saying that they want somebody else as their nominee in 24 because if that doesn't change I think that could also impold in somebody else together that to me is the most remarkable thing here is how The Insider crowd is more fired up about his re-election than the actual Rank and file voters normally that is flipped right normally you know think of Bill Clinton man The Insider crowd wanted to run him out of town in 98 and it was the voters that said oh no you don't yeah and I Chuck I think that's because of the VP because so many Democrats lawmakers know that if they say to the first question of do you want Biden to run the answer is no they know damn well the second question that we're going to ask is okay then are you for the VP and they don't want to answer that question so I think a lot of the the sort of impulse to stick with Biden he's the incumbent he's our nominee I think a lot of that is because it gets them off the hook for that second question Chuck look is there some thought of like whatever if hey You Gotta Give vice president Harris more opportunities to sort of create confidence because there's no other way out of this right now so why don't they try to find ways to to to help her improve her image well and that gets to the heart of the frictions that you know exists in the white house between sort of the Biden staff and the Harris staff because yes the Harris staff and the VP herself for some time have sort of craved that give her more of her own opportunities to get out there and show her stuff fairness you have seen some of that she's in Munich right now sitting down uh with with Andrea Mitchell I think her speech in Tallahassee a month ago talking about abortion rights in the capital of Florida so you are seeing some signs of that but Chuck I think the bottom line is The West Wing doesn't fully trust her to go out there and execute consistently no and then In fairness to her The West Wing of the Obama West Wing never had a lot of trust in a vice president named Joe Biden so it rings about there there is something there that is that is a bit familiar Jonathan Martin potster good good to see you having some success with that column my friend thank you sir appreciate it and you got it after the break we're going to turn to the Republican race for president amid new polling that shows some Stark Republican divides and battle lines for the party's top Front Runners you're watching Meet the Press down [Music] about a year until voters cast the first ballots but it sure looks like the 2024 at least Republican primary kicked off uh in Full Steam we already have two Front Runners recent polls from Quinnipiac Monmouth Reuters all show basically the same thing former president Donald Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis are Head and Shoulders Above the Rest of the field DeSantis has not yet announced his candidacy but in all of these polls trumpet DeSantis are the only candidates in double digits when they're in one-on-ones DeSantis can be in the lead when they're in multi-canada fields Trump's in the lead so it's pretty obvious to say they're the Go Front Runners you have to go back to 2008 to find the last time we had two candidates separated from the pack this early in an Open Primary and our March NBC poll uh in 2008 NBC Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama led the Democratic field and Rudy Giuliani and John McCain topped the Republican field everybody else was Far Below they all know how those two races turned out joining me now on set Reed Wilson founder and editor of pluribus news that focuses on state legislatures fat Shakur is senior advisor and former campaign manager for Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and Sarah Fagan is a former White House political director under George W bush in NBC News contributor read you before this did yours stint at the hotline after my time there um how would you is this Republican primary field starting to finally come together are we still not sure how big it's going to be you know it's surprised me that it's taken so long to get going I mean this was the time uh when you know by this point in the 2008 race uh Barack Obama had already announced it was what February 6th in the very cold day in Springfield February 10th okay a very cold day in Springfield next day I accepted the job at NBC so I do remember uh it was I mean it's the uh most of the field was in by that point now we've got most of the field is not in but by the way I think we're going to see a much different Republican field than we might have expected then we certainly did four years ago well eight years ago uh in in 2016. this year I think it's going to be Governor heavy we're in this like golden age of Governors here where it's not just DeSantis it's not just Nikki Haley uh but it's it's we might not have many senators at all so how big is the field going to get is it going to be six to eight or is it going to be 12 to 15. oh I think it'll be 12 to 15 for a brief period for a brief period of time and then probably closer to five to six right because when does it get to this 12 to 18 is it over there are we going to see everybody 18 is probably too many but maybe 12 to 13.
Fourth of July you assume but by the Fourth of July it becomes the peak well I think a lot of these people start exploratory committees and then may never launch but if you if you count the excitement I would count those yeah if you count those next eight weeks maybe 12 weeks at the outset you've got to start to raise money if you're gonna if you're really trying to get serious and get on the debate stage you've got to really start to know and if you're Pompeo or sununu or basically anybody not named Ron Don or uh what is Nikki Haley done is it made you go like do I need to hurry up what is her week done to your campaign you think right well I think she's the first one in that as you pointed out isn't named Ron or Don and so she is number three right now right just because she's in the arena uh and so I do think it causes folks to start to say okay if I'm gonna do this I've got to at least lay out a plan and start to execute that week over week even if I'm not going to announce till June um you know for example and look there are real benefits to being the first alternative in the race and we saw that for her I mean she you know you saw this issue with CNN with the anchor who said something unfortunate and he's gotten a ton of coverage off of that this week and you know Faz I'm curious you know there's we we're having a debate when there's not enough instances to say this is a trend but it certainly looks like being early does have its benefits you want to be around late you better get in early the later you get in the less likely you're going to be around I think right about now if we look at the calendar Bernie Sanders was jumping into the 2020 race and we were at that time yeah later Harris and Elizabeth Warren had already got and then Joe Biden gets in in April and you know if you look at that trajectory Elizabeth Warren was the first one in and if I would say if you look in the Republican field that Trump's move was good I mean it was smart I mean at the time you would say what is he doing it was early like there's no Fanfare didn't generate anything what it did is ice the field now everybody who's deciding whether to jump in is do I want to take the punch in the face from Donald Trump otherwise I don't and I'm going to quietly try to get into this race and say nothing at all which isn't a threat to him then because you need a friction you need to fight against Donald Trump who's going to do that no one's going to do that right now well I actually kind of think he's right are you that Trump look in hindsight Trump froze the field for a while and may have done may have done the right thing yeah yeah I I think that's probably fair you know this is but you can't replay the last race and so you know these are totally different Dynamics now and so I think you know a big challenge for these candidates is going to be how do they navigate Donald Trump and and how do I navigate Ron DeSantis if he does but this I mean from my perspective feels like there's fear there in the field is what I'm witnessing I mean I'm not a republican but I it feels like you can feel the fear of people about whether they want to jump in because they know they're they're getting a punch in the face what do you make of that fear I agree that there's you could you sense some hesitancy maybe it's donors who have been whispering in their ear I don't know if I can help you out here because we don't want Trump I think Republicans writ large have Republican presidential candidates are going to have a money problem and the problem is the same for every campaign that YouTube worked on you know the moment you get into the race is also the moment you start spending the money that you raise uh recall people like Scott Walker who ran out of money before they even got to a primary so at what point but of course you need to be in to start raising that money and now you've got donors who are saying well we need the alternative to Trump so we're going to uh you know rally around one particular person which means they're not going to sort of support the vanity projects that that some of these presidential campaigns become and then there's a broader point that you know in the age of digital fundraising uh the online money has not been there for Republicans as much as it has been for Democrats take a look at a lot of the races the midterm election races that happened last year you would be stunned at the amount of money by which Democrats outspent Republicans even people like Val demmings in Florida who got crunched by Marco Rubio still outraged him by like 30 million bucks money is less important than it has been but I think because of the ability to raise money online they can raise enough to stay viable for a while too well that's what we found out I mean Rick Santorum is Pizza Ranch Pizza ranches prove that and then suddenly he found a moment that's right it's got a pizza ranches anymore and I think that Governor DeSantis is consuming a lot of the energy because that Elite Republican class wants anyone other than Donald Trump and he looks the strongest today um but there there is likely to be a moment where he has a tough moment historically every candidate goes through that I'm curious I want to play the clip of Hannity asking an interesting question to Nikki Haley because I think we're going to hear about it a lot which is what specific policy areas would you say you part with Donald Trump let's take a listen what specific policy areas would you would you say part with Donald Trump picking forward Joe Biden is the president he's the one I'm running against and what I'm saying is you don't have to be 80 years old to be president we don't need to have these same people going back again we need something new we need a new generation of Fighters I'm not going to kick sideways I don't have time for that that's not my focus I'm kicking forward it's all about Joe Biden and it's all about the people in America winning again you know guys that was a really good answer for the campaign of Nikki Haley to say but it was to me an odd answer for the candidate herself because that is the one missing piece of this week I think she had a really good week the one missing piece was I don't know what she wants to do as president I hear someone running for vice president or or wanting to make sure that Donald Trump feels positive about her and you know I think that that's fine for her for her own purposes but if you're talking to Fox News audience the actual voters will vote for you you can't identify a difference with Donald Trump that's going to be a fundamental problem for your for the message what is the camp what is it about because if if you're offering Donald Trump light people I think the vast majority of Republicans are still comfortable with Donald Trump heavy I'm going to accept the premise that this is not the week to take Donald Trump on I will accept that premise but doesn't she have to at some point she will for sure have to you quickly as it gets closer to the time in which this really starts to matter and there's only going to be three or four spots out of Iowa or New Hampshire so she'll have to draw a contrast with him and she'll have to critique some of the things he did in the white house that she didn't agree with and have a real rationale for why it's okay that she stayed working in his office I mean that's going to be a challenge or working for his administration that's going to be a challenge for her you know Reed I'm obsessed with I think the single most the only useful document to understand a presidential candidate what they might do is the announcement speech because it's the one thing that I actually think the candidate actually probably has thought about has probably practiced in front of their mirror I was surprised at how thin on on substance it was I think we're in an era of thin on substance in a lot of ways the more you offer to voters the more you are critiqued for it uh and I mean recall this this is the week where Senator Rick Scott from Florida rolled back uh a lot of his proposals and uh Mitch McConnell had never wanted he wanted to be substantive and look what happened to him right exactly so the more substance you you roll out now um the more that there is something for people to attack you and if if her if her goal this this week was to present herself as a feasible alternative to Donald Trump who looks a lot better and appeals to a lot of Voters who will never come back to Donald Trump then she had a good week I want to get you guys you two to weigh in on something we were having this debate in our political unit call yesterday which was you know in 2008 and fast I think you'd agree this Hillary there was a penalty for when Hillary Clinton went negative on Barack Obama there was like a a group of Democrats The Daily Coast world right they would just jump and it was like she found herself there were liberal media columnist would be like what are you doing and it it really helped Obama the question I have is will there be conservative media that do that for DeSantis and I don't know if we know the answer but you accept that that was done for Obama well yeah but I I would still argue that it needs to be done because you had ripped the Band-Aid off you're going to get there at some point anyways right it's my point and so you take the heat at some point so I if I were I guess what your what is your view and your strategy for Ron DeSantis mine would say you got to come right out of the gates blazing on Donald I mean at some level have a critique of Donald Trump otherwise he's Gonna Eat You Alive you know he's going to beat you up you're going to counter and well you're trying to float above it I don't do you think the scientists will have a cocoon of protectors the way Obama had he'll be the darling of the conservative press but but I feel about the scientist and National Review and I say this you know what I mean some of these places do you expect that yeah but I think for different reasons okay you know I don't I think that you've got the Democratic politics is very focused on identity and very focused on a lot of issues that Republican presses are just not and so I think for different reasons about it's about Trump yeah well that'll be and hey it might be really helpful for Ron DeSantis to make this a two-person race right out of the gate fascinating we shall see read Faz and Sarah thank you still to come we'll have an update on Senator John federman's Health after the Pennsylvania lawmaker checked himself into the hospital with severe clinical depression the latest on that they're watching me to press it out [Music] welcome back uh we're getting more information on the health of Pennsylvania Senator John fetterman he checked himself into Walter Reed Medical Center yesterday to receive treatment for clinical depression a close senior aide said fetterman will likely remain in inpatient care for a few weeks at Walter Reed the aides that doctors are trying different medications which requires time to find the right dosage and that requires observation and possibly adjustments joining me now senior National political reporter sahil kaporte so say Hill um this could what are you hearing on the senate floor and and what are you hearing from uh other Senators behind the scenes and will this have any impact on governing well first on the senate floor Chuck there's been an outpouring of support from fetterman's colleagues on the Democratic side for his decision to publicly admit that he's struggling with depression to seek help a number of his colleagues are saying that this is a sign of strength it's not a sign of weakness one notable one is Tina Smith the senator from Minnesota who's spoken publicly a rare Senator who's spoken publicly about her own struggles with depression she has a new opinion piece in The Daily Beast where she expounds on this today she talks about her struggles with depression as a as a teenager then later in her 30s as a mom she had this important line in that piece saying that this is not a personal weakness referring to depression that it's a malfunction of the brain she said it's no more wrong to seek treatment for this than it would be to see creep and for the flu or for a broken arm and a number of other Senators including Bob Casey fetterman's fellow Pennsylvanian are saying uh you know that that this this would help break down the stigma when it comes to mental health and people seeking treatment for it now in terms of the impact for governing it's not clear that it'll have a huge impact Chuck because firstly the Senate is off next week and Democrats have a 51-seat majority there's not a whole lot of action happening on the senate floor and to the extent that it is uh or to the extent that there is it happens to be more on nominees and judges rather than legislation so this all comes down to how long Senator fetterman will be out for we don't know much more than what our colleague Dasha Burns reports which is that he's expected to be gone for a few weeks and beyond that the you know there's very little information that his office has put out except to say that his condition has changed in recent weeks it's become more severe you know so hell it's uh I mean whether it was Mark Kirk I think was off the senate for weeks former senator from Illinois who suffered a stroke Tim Johnson I think was out of the senate for weeks we've we've had Thad Cochrane I think wasn't in the was hospitalized for a period of time this is wow uncommon Not Unusual that's right it's not uncommon for senators to take time away for medical purposes some of them take a significant amount of time away even months but it is uncommon Chuck for uh Senators to publicly admit to suffering from depression I think that's where you know this is this kind of turns into a whole new conversation where a lot of fetterman's colleagues and his allies are praising him for his decision to be public about this to seek care that it might break down barriers for others who might uh you know who might suffer from the same sort of thing Chuck yeah well it's been a history of of U.S senators sort of being being brave about depression issues that sort of actually do help move the conversation forward whether Tom Eagleton Lawton Chiles uh and now John Federman anyway soil Kapoor and capital hope Forester Hill thank you and thank you all for being with us this hour we'll be back Monday with more meet the personality thanks for watching our YouTube channel follow today's top stories and breaking news by downloading the NBC News app
2023-02-20