Hybrid Working - How Technology Can Impact The Workplace - Podcast Episode 3

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hi everyone and welcome to episode three of i  am's podcast on navigating hybrid working and   this episode is going to focus on technology both  how to use it successfully in a hybrid working   environment and some of the kind of considerations  around and how it can be a hindrance and some of   the pitfalls of using it and so if we kick things  off with you phil in terms of your perspective   on a full roll out of digital transformation  make everything digital eradicate face to face   problem solved yeah um i mean it's an interesting  topic that and i guess it's easy to think   from everything that's happened that digital is  the be all and end-all solution um and if you   look at kind of what we've had over the last  18 months or so you could argue that it is   the correct solution if nobody ever went  into into the office again then digital   has to be the only solution but where  people are kind of going back to the   office or being hybrid or being solely remote i  think there's always going to be a place for um   a blend of all the solutions really still  face to face resources knowledge basis courses   um and it i guess the key thing is  not kind of trying to follow the trend   um i think it would be very easy for  us to say oh everyone's moving over   into 90 digital and they never do any  face-to-face training anymore or very little   and because everybody else is doing that i need  to do that or my business needs to do that as well   i think we still need to keep that right back  to basics of a training needs analysis and   saying what is the best solution for the  end result that we need to actually get   one of the big debates at the moment is obviously  resources versus courses i still think there's a   place for both of course sometimes you need a  more hefty course sometimes you need a resource   so yes for me it's always going to be digital  enhances an experience and it's utilized in   the right way that's what makes technology a good  solution not just following the trend i just want   to dive in there actually the resources versus  courses conversation um this has come up a lot   recently um i know lots of us have posted about it  on on social media we discussed it in other places   and i think the biggest thing with that is when  you look at where it came from uh the excellent   book by nick nick shackleton jones about  how people learn and people pulled from it   resources not courses but that's not what he said  what he said was courses are great for developing   long-term understanding and preparing you for  future events resources are great if you need   to do something right now the argument was  never and should never be one or the other   it's all about using the right solution  to get the results that you want   so i think you're spot on there with the  starting with a needs analysis um kind of   it dispels that as even being a debate because  the right solution is just the one you should   go with regardless of whether it's course resource  coms digital face-to-face mix of all of the above   so looking at it from the right solution  perspective what do we think are some of   the things that digital can contribute  and what does it fail to replicate i guess to me it depends on a what experience  you want to create for your people i think   that's still a big part of it um you know  if your values are about being a people   business i think that still needs to drive your  learning solution as well um there's still ways   that you can convey that in a digital medium  of course um being kind of a people company but   you there is that argument to say well let's  create a solution yes that's right for the   the the outcome but also that represents our  company values as well um and again it depends   on the overall solution i think so for example  simulations are always a a big debate about   whether they're useful or not useful you know  system simulations and they do have a place i   think um are they the sole best way to potentially  do a simulation uh to train out systems probably   not because it fragments a learning experience  sometimes where you're learning a system   then later on you learn the policy in a different  course and you don't get that kind of connection   between ask x question at this part of the  process but a simulation can be useful for uh post   training and kind of that you know i've forgotten  how to do x process let me go on and complete this   simulation to refresh myself but the main process  is learned potentially in the training room so i   think it's very hard to say that any particular  um type of content is better suited to digital   and it's about looking at the overall solution  never look at something as an individual   solution i think somebody goes oh we have this  issue so therefore we create this course and   before you know it you've created 100 courses  on multiple different things and they never   link up you always need to step back and say  well how does this fit into the bigger picture   and is there actually something else that we've  already created or already doing that actually we   can just enhance that particular piece of learning  rather than create something completely new   yeah i think i'd i'd mostly agree is that the  the content weirdly doesn't necessarily drive   particularly digital or face-to-face solution um  and i kind of this kind of got reinforced to me   this week actually i've been a fairly long-term  and vocal um thorn in the side of vr in the l d   space in the it's not good enough and it's  not really that effective um but just this   week actually i experienced some excellent vr  training um that was all to do with mental health   um it's very very clever very well made it's a  topic that historically i would probably have said   you need to get people together to discuss to  really make an impact because it's human right   it's a highly personal topic but actually i think  that's probably the most effective um sort of bit   of um uh kind of walk in the shoes of training  that i've ever i've ever seen done uh obviously   highly specialist and it could only be done in  a digital world but um historically i think it's   a topic we would have said oh you get them in  a room and you talk about that kind of thing   so i think it's far less content driven and much  more about the actual quality of what you produce   you've got historically digital content has  been ah make it a powerpoint slide and put   some next buttons in and we always talk about  this is that you know digital is not all it's   not an equal playing field there are different  levels of quality different levels of design   and visual quality different levels of learning  design quality and i think that's actually got   far more to do with what works digitally and what  works face-to-face as opposed to just the content yeah and just to build on that as well i think we  always need to go back to the kind of that first   question of what does somebody actually need to  be able to do or do differently and if you can't   create that experience in a face-to-face  or digital format whatever that might be   then to to still go for that solution is always  going to be the wrong solution you know there   is always that kind of reactive uh part to being  in the in the l d space uh especially in internal   teams where an x issue comes up the director  says we need to solve this problem and suddenly   you have to jump on it and solve that problem  and often the solution to that is well let's do   something digital because it's cost effective  it's easy to schedule people in and it's it's   quick to get out there and train all of our staff  but if that's not the right solution there still   needs to be that consideration to say what's the  right thing for the people and what's the right   thing for the business as well and and that flips  itself on its head as well sometimes people will   ask the an l d team for what is the right solution  and we'll go well let's do it digital and we can   do this big game and we can do all of this stuff  big fiasco stuff off the back of it because that's   what our people want we need to engage them but  sometimes there does need to be that place to say   absolutely um you know people need to be a  consideration in a learning solution but if a the   business still needs to be a consideration there  as well so sometimes almost quick and dirty does   need to be the solution if that outweighs the cost  of doing something a longer term in regards to   like the volume of complaints for example that's  always a key driver to to train him so i think   technology there's always a time and a place  to go big and bold and there's always a   right time to go face to face versus digital  but it's about assessing here and now what   your business is and what the problem is and  what you need to get out of the back of it let   that drive it all the time no matter hybrid or  not hybrid that should have always been the case and how much do you think we should be taking  note of the technology that people are using   in their personal lives and how they're learning  socially and is there a value in us starting to   you know try and jump on board with  some of that with workplace learning i think i would say for sure i  mean i think there's a reason why   you see an increased amount of posts around  how can l d use tick tock for example you know   i guess you know there is definitely some  crossover i think it's finding the right   vehicles for these things isn't it  but i think i don't know the general   my sort of personal view probably on this is that  these things are a little bit cyclical but i think   certainly um if a few years ago you know because  i think micro learning and kind of short courses   content was actually a bit of a dirty word but  i think um it's kind of come back very much very   much on trend and that kind of sort of short bite  size content you know and you just look at the way   the majority of people learn these days and it's  new and this whole generational thing is probably   you know rubbish really actually you know i know  if i i was doing something the other day and i   couldn't work out to do it so i went on to youtube  and watched the six sixty second video you know um   and i think it there is definite lessons to be  learnt from that crossover between those worlds   yeah i think i i think i kind of agree  uh i think we maybe pay slightly too   much attention to it at times though and i think  the biggest way you see that is with the kind of   2018 to 2020 everything's going to go mobile and  then it didn't because no one wants to use their   mobile phone for their job unless their work is  providing them a mobile phone and that's perfectly   reasonable why should i give my personal mobile  phone to the business to load up learning on it   that's my phone not theirs if they want me to use  a mobile phone they can give me one if they don't   i'll use the equipment they have given me and  i feel like that's an example of where l d kind   of got a bit ahead of what was actually going to  happen because it looked at social learning which   is a great place to look and it's where we see  things like youtube and as you say tik tok and i   think they're fantastic examples of platforms that  we can mirror we can benefit from we can imitate   but assuming that everything's gonna go mobile and  then it didn't meant a lot of businesses invested   a lot of money in mobile first approaches and all  these things that then proved to just kind of be   a waste of time and money because that jump was  never going to happen and anyone with a little   bit of sense would have gone hang on shall we ask  people if they want to use their mobile phones   no we'll just assume that they use them at  home and therefore they will use them at work   and we never quite thought about the difference  between home and work which almost sounds strange   when we say it out loud yeah and it's still a  piece for mobile learning of course isn't there   you always want to have that mobile first approach  still in your design because obviously there might   be somebody who does eventually complete it on  their mobile phone but if you know if you look   at the the stats out there the majority of people  that complete a piece of e-learning or digital   learning on their phone are very small they use  it again more for those kind of quick resources   um because it's easy accessible like like youtube  for example or a quick google search whatever it   might be but people don't really want to be  sat there for probably 15 minutes unless they   have to because they're out in the field and  that's their only device that they can maybe   that they have and then really most people will  still use a tablet laptop or pc because that's   what they tend to work on anyway i guess taking a  more strategic view to to kind of the the social   learning aspect i think from my point of view  having spent years having to report on data   and and and stuff like that i guess another  consideration that you do need to utilize uh or   think about sorry when when using social media  and things like youtube and stuff like that is   what needs to be tracked and what doesn't need  to be tracked um obviously the the reason for an   lms historically has basically been to almost say  well this person has done x course on x date and   they've completed or not completed realistically  do you need to see if somebody's done this   motivational video on on a ted talk or youtube  have they researched customer service skills   on google do you need to see that that's a  decision for you as a business and again that   drives your solution and what you promote and what  you don't promote because if you want visibility   shall i say so you need visibility of that there's  a very difference between want and need let's just   clarify that if you need visibility  that people have completed these more   social aspects to their learning then probably  look to get your own internal resource or course   available to those people if you don't need to  track it utilize them absolutely promote them   of course there's a consider  i.t consideration of course   a lot of companies do have things like tick-tock  youtube and stuff blocked as a as a site so   there's a bit of trust there as well in your  people and saying well if we unlock these we   need to trust that you're using it as a learning  resource and in the right way you're not sat there   watching youtube videos of  cats between between your job that's what i'm doing right now i feel like  we're all minimizing windows as phil's yeah   yeah the cats are so cute though but let's  not deny you know youtube is a very powerful   learning tool um you know i've probably used  about three or four times myself this you know   in the last couple of days alone um especially  for software and adobe is a classic one you know   you can use adobe for years and there's still  something you go no idea how to do that because   is such powerful tools the first place you go is  youtube of course it is um it wouldn't necessarily   be the first place you'd go though of course if  you're in a particular job trying to do a process   because if that's on youtube well i think you've  got some bigger issues in your company as to   why your processes are on youtube so there is  a time and a place for it it's a powerful tool   and we don't always have the time a resource to  build these uh kind of courses or resources in   your business excel is a prime example where a  lot of people will say we need an excel course   program catalog because we use excel people need  to know how to use it so therefore they spend   months creating these courses when actually  all of that is available for people on tap on   youtube and if anything they'll probably still go  to there rather than doing your course on the lms   do you think sort of on that note  that causation is harder than ever   to pin down because people are learning so much  socially and outside of work and through through   all these programs that the organization  doesn't have oversight of so are we getting   less confident in being able to say no it was  the internal training that's resulted in this   you know great improvement because we just don't  know what else people are accessing i think if   anyone ever had total confidence in that it was  false confidence and they they should be glad to   be rid of it um because i think it's one of the  the big sins that perhaps uh much of the industry   certainly myself has been guilty of in the past  of going correlation equals causation we did this   training things got better training worked did  it are you sure did nothing else happen in that   time um did a manager do some coaching was there  were there performance updates was there a system   change has the time of year altered the customer  base or what they're called you know there's so   many variables going on in most businesses at any  given time i don't actually think it's that much   more difficult now to prove causation i think it's  always been exceptionally difficult to prove um   the with any absolute certainty the effectiveness  of training you you can set metrics um but you   have to kind of allow for the fact that  other stuff is going to happen as well as   your training whether you like it or not you  can't kind of sterilize the work environment   to the point where the only uh the only  stimulus people are receiving is your training and the flip side to that of course is when  people use the argument that training didn't work   so you you track the metrics off the back of  doing x intervention or or whatever it might be   you see that your your data and kpis improve off  the back of that for two or three months and then   suddenly it dips down and people go well training  wasn't effective but behind the scenes of course   if those skills aren't coached if learning and  coaching sorry training and coaching aren't   aligned and working together then those skills  don't get embedded they don't sustain so therefore   of course they they appear off if they're not  used but it's very dependent on whether people   have or haven't used those skills in that time  frame so yeah you know i'm an agreement it's a   very hard thing to pinpoint specifically that  your intervention has improved x metrics so   therefore you've saved why money um there's  always going to be a place for it of course   one of the biggest things we always have  to do is justify uh as as l d teams are   what we're doing and our value because often  whether first people get cut whenever there's   a new deal or money needs to be saved so if the  more you can try and prove your worth of course   the better and i think then it becomes about how  you prove that and rather than trying to prove it   with absolute statements of this happened and we  100 caused it it's more about demonstrating your   involvement in key performance increases in the  business or compliance you know if you aren't   being sued because you haven't reached gdpr or  whatever you it might be that you could have been   sued for that that's clearly a demonstration  that at some level the training is working   it's one of those it's never going to make you  money it just means nothing happens when that's   the best scenario and that is happening  the training is being proven effective   it just doesn't always feel like it there's an  education piece here as well i think isn't it   because a lot of what you're talking about here  is well i guess as as is all training ultimately   it kind of introduces the behaviors or the change  that you want to engender and i think ultimately   culture isn't just gonna suddenly miraculously  shift you know in fact culture can you know well   it's probably quite quick to break down but  it will certainly take you a lot longer to   hit that kind of cultural high note so i guess you  know yes it's obviously like we've been discussing   valid to track and to to see whether your  interventions are heading in the right direction   you know you can track that to you probably  your normal business kpis almost but   ultimately you kind of need to be in this  for the longer term and recognize that all   these things are hopefully going to combine  to take you to where you want to be culturally   yeah yeah well if we shift focus a little bit and  and move on to sort of accessibility conversation   around digital you know what do you guys i  think think about some of the kind of key   concerns around that and how do we make sure that  we're not isolating people and just providing for   the tech savvy um so i mean i guess there's two  conversations there there's the quote unquote tech   savvy and there's accessibility um technically  the same topic but i think there's there's   there's two different groups of issues there's  the i don't like using computers and refuse to   develop those skills at which point my belief  is actually that businesses should say well look   you you now live in a digital world i appreciate  it may not always have been that way we're going   to support you in learning it but we're not  going to create a non-digital option just for you   because i don't think that is the right  solution because where do you stop with that   that means potentially you've got two versions of  everything you would never go okay well you don't   like using technology so you don't have to use the  internal computer systems you can print everything   off and work on paper and that's obviously the  extreme end of that conversation but you know   i i think training should apply that kind of that  kind of thought and say the solution is not to not   go digital because some people go oh a computer  i don't know it's to encourage those people to   engage with that um kind of digital world it'll  help them outside of work as well guarantee you   they've got a phone in the facebook account if  they can do that i'm pretty sure they can log into   an lms there it's far simpler let's be honest  um the accessibility side i think is far more   on the sort of l d design world and  there's been a big shift over the last year   um certainly in the uk where it's not a legal  requirement yet but i think it is definitely an   ethical and moral requirement on anyone creating  content and we see that championed by people like   susie miller all around the country really just  to abide by simple kind of what called the whackag   standards that apply to all websites anyway  and just thinking about basic stuff like closed   captions and transcripts and naming things and  providing alternative text that you know we all   spend a lot of time making sure it's embedded in  every single step of our content um and it doesn't   take much work and i think that's why when people  sort of say oh i don't want to do accessibility   because it's more work i don't want to do  accessibility because it kills courses and this   kind of thing it doesn't have to it doesn't need  to it just needs to be applied in a sensible way   so i don't think that and the technology is  there now to mean that everyone can access   um sort of digital content so it really doesn't  need to be a barrier as it might have been five   ten years ago do you think it's it's basically  we're at a point where we just need to be   designing that as a default so rather than you  know i've seen some articles around how do you   encourage staff to have honest conversations about  their accessibility needs and their disabilities   and and make a culture which allows for those  conversations but i guess part of that is or   one approach to that is just that you design for  everyone to accommodate everyone from the off   yeah yeah i mean i think so we're going for a  good time i'm just gonna say that you know a   lot of workplaces have potentially gone well we  don't have a large um kind of uh workforce that   with disabilities that have been being claimed  um but it's not just necessarily that there's   a lot of people potentially that are dyslexic and  maybe never been diagnosed with it um you know you   just need to look at my spelling to probably say  actually um it is probably you know at 32 years of   age and i still can't spell very well probably  i've got a degree of dyslexia there that i've   never bothered to to check out um but also it's  environmental kind of situational sometimes   um so a busy workforce if you're working  in a call center and you have nowhere to   go and do your your e-learning while trying  to listen to some audio or watch a video   it can be really hard no matter what headphones  you you've got unless they're noise cancelling   which often are provided by uh companies  having some closed captions there just to   help with that kind of environmental noisy  environment can really help and you know you might   break your arm and then you can't use your  mouse so suddenly you need to resort to   maybe trying to to control the e-learning via your  your keyboard so it's not just about disabilities   it's also about what enhances that experience  just to make it a bit easier for people when   they want it really yeah yeah that was exactly  my point really that i think when we think about   learning content we designed i would say that a  lot of it we did just because we thought it was   best practice not necessarily because it was for  accessibility and you know i mean i could think of   plenty of examples even now actually where we talk  to you know different people and i'm still always   surprised when people say to me do we have to use  voiceover as in our computers don't have audio   um you know so you know the idea statements  out there is so varied even today you know   organizationally you know people are  still catching up on that front but   you know we just you know felt that you know  you do do these things because people like to   to consume content in different ways it's more  about the learner experience than anything else   you know we we had a podcast into the content  which isn't really a podcast it's like the   voiceover in mp4 format we get a lot of feedback  from people that say i just love it because i can   download that and i just like stick my earbuds  in and i listen to it um and it's not for any   particular accessibility reason but you almost  don't know how this content gets used but it's   the right thing to do because it satisfies a lot  of different you know learner um desires i guess yeah how about um kind of issues  with digital fatigue in terms of   how do we spot the signs that you know people  are getting overloaded with you know face-to-face   meetings always being on camera and that  they're they're lacking maybe kind of that   or feeling overwhelmed by that reliance  on technology and what do we do about that question one simple way  just ask people you know if   if people are getting fed up with zoom meetings or  whatever it might be then you you know if you've   got an open and honest culture you would hope  that somebody would raise that with their boss i guess you do you know zoom is a great example  where people still hate it there is a great need   for it and there's a great place for it um i know  there's certainly meetings with either clients or   even internally when we're discussing stuff where  just having that camera and being able to see   somebody does surprising how much of a  difference it does actually make um and plus   it forces people to actually pay a bit more  attention as well i know it sounds silly   but when you're when you're on a phone call  and somebody can't see you it's very easy to   either do this email or do this quick reply  or actually pay no attention whatsoever um   if you know that x person isn't quite a talker and  they're having their little piece in their meeting   so i think just that camera piece does does add  a bit of interaction um but yeah you just got to   ask people a thing you know get the feedback if  it's not working is there a different way that   it can be done and change your approaches not  everything is we're not going to get everything   right straight away um and we still need to keep  going well we've tried this how's that going   engage with your people utilize surveys anonymous  surveys and stuff like that how are you finding   it if you don't like it why don't you like it make  sure you get that why you know just make sure it's   not personal preference over uh accessibility or  it just doesn't work because my wi-fi is rubbish   at home whatever it might be um so yeah just just  ask people we're too scared to sometimes just ask   people outright just to say do you like this or  not is it it's like when um some years ago when um   with one of my leaders it's the same with  um coaching what is the name we've got all   these models around coaching theories and how to  coach different people and social style styles   and myers-briggs and all this stuff but nobody  actually just thinks to go well why don't i just   ask you how you like to be coached and managed and  get it from the source rather than trying to guess   and put them into your model and then theorize  and then use your nlp skills to to coach them in   a certain way uh it's a you know conversation more  powerful than a model or guessing whatever will be   totally great i think more practically i was  just saying sorry tom three um as i suppose more   practically i think certainly seen a lot more late  where you know i don't know making sure that you   don't book zoom calls between 12 and 1 you know  kind of let people have the natural time to break   i mean we use hubspot as our crm they've got a  well-being week this week where they basically   kind of give everybody pretty much everybody in  the organization the week off and they've kind   of implemented processes obviously they still  kind of maintained that core tech support but   they're sort of saying hey look for this week talk  to your account manager before they go if you're   renewing this week do it before this week you  know if you've got a bill coming up you know if   you need it delaying let us know the week before  um we've got our help pages if you need us you   know anything urgent of course we'll deal with it  here's the dedicated mailbox somewhat more to this   you've seen that increasing i think so i  think there's lots of practical steps that   you can take to help break some of that tech  sort of vicious cycle that you get into so   sorry tom the other tom what interrupted you  there oh just because one of the elements of   fatigue we often forget about then is actually  that it's not zoom or google chat or what   you're doing it's how you're doing it it's bad  facilitation especially in the learning world   when everything first jumped onto zoom you just  got a trainer sat there for three hours going   and here is the content and i'm going to talk  to you and you're going to answer questions and   so on and so forth and if they were really  stretching it they might use the chat   um it was a bit like going back to msn messenger  days for those of us that remember said messenger   and rather than school to talk to the same people  you were sat with like 20 minutes ago all evening   um that's what we did it's how you pass  the time before netflix was invented but after the home phone was kind of  obsolete that was the important thing   but we don't live in that world anymore  we live in the world where you can have   breakout rooms and polls and interactions in your  zoom call or you can use teams to split people   off into completely separate calls to go and do  activities and come back you can replicate far   more of those interactive elements that we would  typically say was face-to-face training than we   used to be able to on digital platforms but very  very few of the sort of digitally facilitated   sessions be them lnd or be them general meetings  use that functionality and when we talk about   fatigue and someone says oh it's another same  old one-hour zoom call sit here listen turn   off well it's no wonder they're fatigued you're  using five percent of what the software can do   and all that extra stuff has been added to  help you engage and excite your audience   um so kind of what do you expect to an extent if  you refuse to use that functionality if you've   got the software you're paying for it it's a bit  like buying like a i don't know a fast car i don't   drive and never going above 30. why not use what  it can do to help prevent or at least stave off   um that kind of boredom that you get with  some digital content you can do a lot more   if they're actually interacting with it  rather than just passively sat there going   yeah and great you consider the amount of  time as well that people actually in their   day-to-day life spend on technology then all of a  sudden you get into your work environment and you   can't stand using technology then you need to ask  yourself what why is that um you know yes people   go oh well i'm stuck on a zoom call for one hour  whatever it might be but i'd certainly rather be   doing that than being back in the office in stuck  in back-to-back meetings you know i've been in   that scenario where your entire days back-to-back  meetings meetings about the meeting you've just   been in and then a meeting to prep for the next  meeting so you know you could argue that actually   it's a bit more efficient using this  technology people are used to it um so   if somebody can sit there for an hour scrolling  on social media but they can't stand being on your   zoom call for 15 minutes like what you're saying  tom 3 you've got to look at the facilitation   and how you're using those tools rather than  saying well this isn't necessarily right um   for our workplace and we've all just done that  sorry before we move on i can see you've got the   move on face about to come on gemma so wrong face  but i was just going to say as well we have to   remember that the last kind of year and a half is  not a good measure of this because the last year   and a half has not been let's do hybrid working  because it's the right thing to do it's been   oh everyone go home go home now we'll figure it  out as we go don't go outside you might die yeah   it's this kind of this has not been a good measure  of how to create really great digital content this   has been a measure of how quickly can businesses  adapt to something they were completely unprepared   for uh and when we talk about people being oh  they're not willing to sit there for this well   a lot of people have gone from being potentially  very relaxed people what they were normal people   to being very anxious people or people in  situations that they don't know how to handle   um so i think a lot of what we hear at the minute  is probably not the best measure of what the   what the real long term view will be of being  at home and doing digital and using zoom   what what about fatigue in terms of ability  to switch off so we've introduced you know   we've got this real reliance now which is probably  here to stay with things like teams and slack a   lot of people have those apps on their personal  phone you know people are chatting well into the   evening and the weekend how you know i appreciate  you know a lot of it is will you set the culture   as the leadership team of what's okay and what's  not but some people like that for some people   that's part of their social connection and they  like the flexibility of being able to jump in   you know when suits them so how  do we get that balance right i i think we just need to be it's going  to be a learning curve it certainly is um   i i think like you said yes it's more than  culture but it starts from that leadership   and down really and then making sure that it's  acceptable for you to not feel obliged to reply   um the joy of hybrid work and of course is um  and even remote working is that you can flex your   hours that that little bit more so if you want to  do 10-6 you you you almost can you know we spoke   about that in one of the previous podcasts  that it's more about output than than kind   of clocking in and clocking out which is because  you're there between nine and five doesn't mean   you're productive if i'm more productive because  between the hours of 12 and 8 and that doesn't   impact the work then allow people to do that so  it's recognizing that people might be working   different hours you need to make your own personal  choice with that work-life balance and saying   do i or don't i want these  apps on my device and if i   do need them on my device um so i'm you know  i'm a prime example where uh we use slack   i have it on my phone uh i have that on my phone  i don't really know why anymore because i never   really use it it's more of a backup but if i'm  popping out to the the shop something like that   it's more peace of mind for me knowing that i'm  not missing maybe something an urgent message   but i do have a setting on there that after six  o'clock it doesn't notify me of any messages so   if i do check it it's out of my choice to do so  rather than uh kind of that notification pinging   up and and feeling obliged or kind of having that  inquisitiveness about your behavior and going   i need to see what that message is is it important  because you can only see the first two lines   uh and then you kind of sit there until 11 o'clock  at night scratching your hair going i wonder if   i'm getting fired tomorrow uh or maybe it was just  something really simple um yeah is that one of the   the dangers of the flexibility of ours where  you feel like if you don't reply at seven you   can miss out on an important conversation or you  hold something up you know if we're all working   at different times on this 24 7 tech that's a bit  of a risk isn't it or that some people may feel a   pressure that they they must engage at the point  where everyone else is chatting or fall behind   there's two sides to that i think if your  workforce is so dispersed that the hours they're   working are preventing the job being done that's  mismanagement and so it's a slightly different   conversation because i don't think anyone would  argue that everyone should just be able to work   whenever they fancy it you know everything should  be in the frame of assuming it works for you and   the business because otherwise you could go okay  i'm going to work from one in the morning until   you know whenever that might lead you up to  however long your working day is going to be   and you're the only person working there um so  there are some sort of sensible limitations that   to an extent prevent that but i think there  is a massive responsibility that businesses   i think perhaps a lot think they live up to it  but maybe fall slightly short of the mark in   this world we're talking about when it comes  to things like people with anxiety disorders   or people who worry beyond the oh well don't worry  about it response or just leave it you can get   that message tomorrow for some of us we'll kind of  go hmm yeah it'll lurk me but never mind it's fine   there are people who can't that's just not how  it works for them um and i think they're the the   the solution is very simply that managers need  to speak to their people they need to make sure   they're regularly in contact with them being  digital being remote does not mean you don't   need to speak to them every day it doesn't mean  you don't ever meet up it doesn't mean you don't   have phone calls just because you've got zoom as  well prime example being some people don't want to   discuss something on camera but they might discuss  on the phone they might discuss it by email   it's keeping those open lines of communication  and when you know something isn't right   doing something about it not just saying oh  well if there's a problem they'll tell me   well no they won't because that's what the  problem is and that's but we see it all the   time right and people end up six feet under  before they go there's a problem over here and   then everything's been dropped um and so managers  actually now need to be more proactive than ever   because they can no longer see the person sat at  the desk getting worried or upset so they need   to have those conversations more regularly and  be a bit more direct in there not just you're   right but actually getting to that next level  of look i've noticed that xyz what what's going   on um and what do you need from me how can i fix  it rather than relying on people to come forward okay so how how do organizations  take all of this in and decide   what digital tech is right for them and  their people is it an lms is it an lxp you   know do we use slack are there aspects  of teams you know what are kind of the   key things that the conversations they  need to be having to think about this i need to stop by oh god tom i was just gonna  say start with what do you already have in house   um is the most always any question  really is what have you already got   especially these days for most businesses  you've got microsoft chances are everything   runs windows in-house more or less by the sort  of few businesses that base everything on macs   and if you've got windows and your business  chances are you've got office well that means   you've got the full office suite you've got teams  you've got to do you've got pretty much everything   you want already on your doorstep so before you  start looking at shiny stuff that's advertised   look at what you've already got in house look  at what your it team has already got inside   the infrastructure i think that's where a lot of  mistakes creep in when people immediately jump to   the most popular or the shiniest new solution  rather than looking at what they've already got   yeah very similarly i i guess my was a  slightly different starting point but get   very similar kind of process i'll say  start with what you need to be able to do   and then map what you have already that does that  job um similar principle don't bring something in   and disperse everything just because this  product does this need and this does that need   figure out everything you need to be able  to do and why you need to be able to do it   look at what technology you've got does that  do the job if it does is it the best way of   doing that job so yes use existing tech if  it's working and it's doing the right thing   if it's not is there a system that can combine it  or another system that you've already got that you   could be utilizing all of these particular needs  into one particular system um so yeah that that   would be my starting point always start with the  need and why yeah the danger of over complicating   it and we've got loads of different technology  in play and no one knows where to go for anything   yeah yeah i think so i think i guess as  well you know i always think was it sort of   people change delivered through processes enabled  by technology you know so as a kind of sort of   sort of way of cementing it so in other words i  guess people might be tempted to jump straight to   that technology piece right early on but that's  probably the last place to begin you know and   it really is you know ultimately i think most  of this should really be people transformation   people change which also means you need to look at  your processes and then probably your data as well   and then and then think about well what's  the stack because these guys have been saying   you know and then what have you got what do you  need to add to and how do you continue to make   sure that all builds together because i've also  seen plenty of i.t technology stacks that are   really really disparate and therefore you know  they really struggle and ultimately you want it   to be integrated to probably be cost effective but  also to have any chance of really being used and   embedded in the organization feels like a nice bit  of wisdom to finish up on tom thank you for that   and so next time we'll be moving on to episode  four and focusing on leadership in the hybrid   working space so we'll be exploring things like uh  trust which keeps coming up a lot and and you know   having that trust in people and also upskilling  our leaders you know are there new areas around   well-being around performance management when  you're not together you know how do we get   people and managers especially in a position where  they feel confident and competent to deliver that

2021-10-17

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