Honey bee s social learning pesticides problems and lessons for society - Dr James Nieh

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foreign Professor welcome to the show it is a pleasure  and an honor to have you here I have requests   from my audience to bring you here for a long  time and I this is finally happening and I'm   very happy for that. How are you today? Very good thank you and it's wonderful to   be able to join you and I really look forward  to our conversation. You recently published a   paper very interesting paper in a very prestigious  Journal science I would love you to give a little   introduction about this article with us after  you tell me a little bit how you get into the   bees what's your background and how you get into  the bees. I'm I'm really curious to know a little  

bit more about that sure so uh it's a question  people often ask me when I was an undergraduate I   was trying different things and I took a course  in animal behavior and communication that was   taught by bird heldubler at the time who is famous  for his work on social ants and I decided that I   when I learned about the honeybee communication  system and the waggle dance which ironically is   what this paper is about I decided that I wanted  to study it I wanted to learn more I thought it   was unbelievable that an animal like a bee or  actually any animal would have a language that   was this complicated so I did a summer research  project and I was trained in how to work with   bees and train them to feeders by Professor Tom  Seeley from Cornell University and I then became   a graduate student in his lab so that's how I got  started wow it's something that get attention of   everybody about is I think he's one of the most  magnets about how people get into business to   understand their society how they communicate and  so it's so impressive and interesting I think is   one of the main magnets that attract people to to  honeybees and and behavioral tell me a little bit   about this publication because this is this is new  to me apparently the bees teaching the other bees   they need the older bees tell me a little bit  more about that right so um the collaborators   from China from the Chinese Academy of Science in  Kunming Dr led by Dr Ken tan were interested along   with me in this question why do we need to learn  a language you know bees have a really complicated   language is it possible that they just have it  completely genetically encoded or do they need   to learn in order to produce a waggle dance this  is a question that many people have asked me over   the years but I think the bigger question we were  interested in is why is it that some animals need   to learn language humans for example or even  naked mole rats or canaries can learn parts of   their Communication System but many other animals  don't have to learn it at all imagine if you were   born being able to speak Portuguese or English  or Chinese it would be much more convenient but   the the answer is as to why it's important to  learn usually come down to two reasons number   one you want to adapt to your environment  so for example you might as a bird live   an environment where you have different acoustic  parameters and so you would want to optimize your   communication so that your vocalizations could  spread farther and be less distorted in that   environment so that's a good example of why you  would need to learn you can't exactly predict   where you're going to be born the second reason is  that communication can be very complicated if we   think about how canaries communicate or many other  animals it requires a lot of fine muscle control   it requires the refinement of neural Pathways  between the vocal tract and the brain and if you   think about honeybees they have a really complex  communication system of the wackle dance which   we'll explain in a moment so it's quite possible  that for either or both of these reasons honeybees   might need to learn how to communicate from  bees that are already older and more experienced   wow and how how you do that how you demonstrate  such things it's quite interesting the design that   of that scientific article so we were following  up on observations by other researchers that   showed that when a honeybee and this requires  monitoring a b throughout its lifetime which   is possible now with video tracking and RFID  they typically tend to follow older experienced   bees as they get older before they themselves  begin foraging now we should realize that how   honeybees work their division of labor is based  on how old they are they start out as nurse bees   and as they get older they transition to become  foragers so when they start becoming foragers one   of the signs is they become very interested in  waggle dances maybe that's just because they're   interested in foraging but maybe it's because  they're learning how to waggle dance so for the   experiment we had to create two different  kinds of colonies experimental and control   in the experimental colonies we created what's  called a single cohort Colony all the bees are   the same age they were large colonies they had  thousands of bees they had plenty of food so   everything was fine and they also had a queen but  they were all the same age in the experimental   column in the control Colony same number of bees  same amount of food also had a queen and the same   genetic background meaning that we actually took a  source colony and then split it into two which is   very important but they had bees of all ages so  they could learn from older bees whereas in the   experimental Colony everybody was the same age so  it's kind of like growing up without any teachers   everybody has to go along at the same rate what  you then have to do is you have to have a lot of   help and you have to watch the bees in the colony  not every bee in the colony but we individually   painted on their thorax on the back different  colors 200bs so we were able to track these   200 B's and when a bee is Young And A Nurse B it  tends to hang around inside the comb but as it   gets older it displays more interest in moving  towards the nest entrance eventually starting   to fly out and beginning to forage so in the  experimental colonies we watch these bees every   day throughout the day and when the first bees  started to be interested in moving to the Colony   entrance to begin the part of their life that they  have as foragers we were able to immediately train   them to a feeder now this occurred at nine  to ten days of age in both the experimental   and the control colonies which was great the  difference was that in the control colonies   at around this age they were also interested in  following waggle dancers which they did but in the   experimental Colony they could never follow any  waggle dancers because everybody was the same age   we then train these bees to a feeder and we  looked at their first dances inside the nest   when they came back so we could measure a lot of  things about these dances we can and we'll explain   that in the video but the dance communicates  distance Direction and food quality how that   works I'll discuss in a minute but there can be  errors in all of these they might communicate the   wrong distance they might communicate the wrong  direction and we could compare the first dances of   bees in the experimental Colony versus the control  colony and as the the paper discusses in fact the   first dances of the experimental Colony bees  bees that grew up without any teachers without   any ability to watch older dancers they were  significantly worse at communicating Direction   distance and also this thing called Dance disorder  they were not producing a normal orderly dance   now the second part of the experiment is we came  back 20 days later and we looked at the same bees   remember all the bees are marked so we know the  bees that we're looking for in those 20 days   in between we didn't provide the feeder so they  just had it on the first day they were foraging   and then 20 days later 20 days later however they  were fully mature foragers they were actually near   the end of their adult lifespan as foragers and we  wanted to see did they improve in the control bees   nothing changed they were still as good in their  dancing 20 days later when they were fully adults   forgers as the first time they tried to dance in  the experimental colonies they also improved they   improved their communication of Direction and  they had dances that were more orderly that had   less dance disorder however they were unable to  communicate the correct distance in fact in the   experimental colonies whether they were their  first dances or 20 days later when they were   much more experienced they still communicated  distances that were too great which is really   interesting um we know that in many languages  there is a critical period where if you don't   learn to do it the correct way that persists for  the rest of your lifetime and it might be that   this distance communication error is something  that is persisting for The Bee's lifetime very   very interesting and the way you summarize thing  I think this is is the art because I was trying   to summarize try to make it easier for for people  to understand and I was having a lot of trouble   Professor can we show that video and you can guide  us about what we were seeing sure that's great   please let's start the video and I will go ahead  and narrate what we're seeing all right so here we   see the image of the waggle dancer in the middle  and the dance followers that are following it   and here's a video actually showing the b in the  center it's got the white orange dot on its back   and it's being followed by other bees so this is  the classic waggle dance now notice that the angle   the B is moving when it's waggling it's about I  would say 20 degrees to the left of the vertical   position here's an example of another waggle dance  and they're all pointing in the same direction   because they're all being trained and indicating  the same food location now these are pretty good   waggle dances notice that each time she's more or  less pointed in the correct direction the duration   of the waggle run communicates food distance the  farther away the food the longer the waggle run   the direction as I just said points to the  direction of the food relative to the Sun   now you see other dancers and notice they're all  pointed in about the same direction some of them   are not exactly in the same direction this green  one is making some errors but overall on average   they're pointing in the correct direction now in  this experiment we found that novices are able to   learn how to dance better from observing other  waggle dancers and you can see there are a lot   of painted bees here these are all the bees that  we were training and following in our experiment   and this is a fun thing because there's a  lot going on so it's good that people can   train themselves on looking for the other  dancers so I wanted to mention the amount   of time that they should waggle to communicate  distance as I said if they do it incorrectly or   Learn Somehow incorrectly when they're young it  appears to persist for their entire lifespan and   this could be a form of cultural Transmission in  other words maybe one generation will teach the   next the incorrect distance encoding and I'll  go over that in a moment but another reason   that maybe bees need to learn is look at the  dance floor so some bees are dancing on this   brood cone that's covered with this fluffy wax  some bees are dancing on the open comb we know   that the dance surface influences the accuracy  of the dance so is it possible by practicing by   dancing on these different surfaces that they are  actually learning to dance better over time that's   something that's an experiment that we hope  to to work and explore in Greater detail so   people can now see the waggle dance and I just  wanted to see if you had any questions for your   viewers about things that they might want to  know about this dance I was discussing with the   people my patrons I have the patrons that who  have discussions and some of my pages asked me   and I was quite interested in that question too  um because of the nature of the experiment that   we force all the bees to have the same age and  so they basically were kind of forced to mature   faster if that would implicate in anything of  the results that we're seeing do what what your   thoughts on that so that's really interesting um  however I should say that in both the experimental   colonies and the control colonies the bees that  began their first dances were the same age they in   both cases they started dancing when they were 9  to 10 days old so it so yes in general there were   probably some bees that were maturing more rapidly  than they would have normally and that could mean   that their brains weren't as correctly developed  but since the control colonies also had bees at   the same age we would expect the same level of  cognitive development yeah interesting we are   this is this is the main question that came from  from my viewers uh the behavior of honeybees are   not my background it's just something that  fascinates me bring me to the question is   what do we know about the communications of honey  bees do I what do we know about them how how they   communicate pheromones touching noise tell can you  give us an overview about the current knowledge on   how to be communication so honeybee communication  is multimodal meaning that honeybees use multiple   sensory abilities in their Communication System  we can think about the sense of smell or olfaction   which is largely through the B antennae so that  is important because there are B pheromones like   the queen pheromone now I'm going to focus on  senses that are related to the waggle dance   and B communication for foraging we know that  when honeybees are waggle dancing they can heat   up and as a result some odors are released  from their body from the waxes that surround   um their um their cuticle and these odors can be  attractive to other bees similar to a pheromone   but this is actually just the increased release of  the odors and by attracting other bees to follow   the waggle dancer these dance followers can more  effectively get the information about where to go   I just mentioned that bees are warmer when they  are recruiting for a good food source part of   that might be to release these attractive  odors but bees can also sense temperature   differences and so if a bee is a couple of degrees  Celsius warmer she can be more conspicuous inside   the colony and we think that that thermal  difference is also attractive to followers   bees when they're dancing if you think about  it are moving very rapidly they're moving more   than one body length a second and so they're also  generating vibrations and sound the vibrations are   fairly weak when they're running on the comb but  they are something that we think that bees within   one or two cells of the dancer can probably sense  and again they may help her to find that dancer   when the bees in the waggle phase I know that we  had turned off the sound but you will actually   hear a sound when she's waggle dancing and you  can look at this in other videos or maybe you can   show a clip later on but it's kind of a buzzing  sound and that coincides with the waggle phase so   the duration of that sound is correlated with the  distance to the food source and we think that also   provides information but speaking of information  and B senses how exactly are the followers getting   this information keep in mind that it's normally  completely dark inside the colony so they can't   see each other so what they are sensing is they  can still sense the temperature they can still   smell the body of the dancer and by the way the  dancer brings back the odor of the flowers that   she's been visiting either if she has pollen  which is stuck on her legs or in the hairs   of her body so she's conveying that information  she's generating these vibrations she's generating   these Airborne sounds that bees very close to  the dancer might be able to hear but the most   important thing appears to be touch if you are  looking at those videos you might notice that   the Rival dancer is waggling and the other bees  are very close by and in fact in some cases their   antenna is being hit by the body of the dancer  so this Direct stimulation of the antenna this   tactile sense is probably very important to  sense where the dancer is and the angle of   the dancer inside the nest so that's a review of  the basic senses that are involved in honeybee   communication I said earlier that I would tell you  how bees communicate food quality there are two   ways the number of times they repeat this waggle  dance so one waggle circuit is a waggle run and   the B returns around and then she Waggles again  that would be the beginning of a second circuit   if a bee really likes a resource like good food  she can do this hundreds of times and the more   she does it the more bees are informed about the  location of the good resource so that's a major   way in which they communicate food quality another  thing that people have talked about for a long   time in Carl Von Frisch who discovered the meaning  of the waggle dance noted this as well is that b   seem to be more excited when the food is better  we now know that they're just faster so when the   bee is waggling she's largely moving at the same  rate but when she goes back around to waggle again   she can do it slowly or she can do it really fast  and if she does it very rapidly that return phase   duration it means that she's more excited that the  food or the resource is better so that's basically   um the waggle dance in a nutshell communicating  distance Direction and food quality uh the Weigel   dance of course can also communicate the location  of a nest site the location of water sources bees   also need water and propolis or resin that bees  collect for their health benefits but also to   help build the column when you stimulate  my mind professors so much uh because   I want to ask you what happen if we disrupt this  communication in small doses and I'm in the center   there is a concern of mine a personal concern of  mine because most of the pesticides are targeting   neurons or the brain and and and when I look  at the registration and how people see safety   I it's my personal opinion I feel some gaps is  in understanding the damage that pesticides of   that nature could cause and I was wondering if I  could ask you your thoughts on that matter do you   think pesticides might be damaging their learning  abilities or other things that may perhaps the   regulatory systems are not being able to catch  that's a great point so the the regulation is   based largely upon studies of mortality do bees  die or not within 48 hours or so of being treated   with a pesticide but there are long-term effects  on Survival that we know but whether you live   or die is very very coarse way of looking at it  because bees need to communicate and they have a   lot of sophisticated behaviors work that um I have  done with colleagues in my lab and with students   has shown that there are multiple effects on B  behaviors their ability to walk their ability to   dance and their ability to learn so many research  researchers have now shown that when bees and   these could be stingless bees uh or it could be  honeybees or even other kinds of bees when they   receive sub-lethal doses of pesticides meaning  they're not dying right away their cognition is   impaired they have a reduced ability to learn and  they have reduced memory and this can happen at   any life stage for example larvae that are  fed food by nurse bees that's contaminated   with pesticides when they become adults they  can also have poorer learning so in many ways   for example we talk about lead and the effects  of lead on human children when they grow up it   actually reduces their IQ reduces their ability to  learn very similar to the problem with pesticides   that fascinates me um it is a really a real  concern of myself um and I don't know what   to do about it to be honest other than try to  educate people here in this Channel and to perhaps   convince people at home to to at least to be  informed about the consequences of this chemicals   that I see everywhere I go when I walk in my dog I  can't get rid of them in my life so it's a concern   of mine maybe can I perhaps stick your brain  about something else about honey bees Society   is that it's also something that fascinates  me what honeybee's societies could teach us   about to be a better Society I would like to to  know your thoughts on that that's really great   point I think that humans have long admired bees  because they live in a largely harmonious Society   where they're working together and cooperating now  there are exceptions to this of course but in fact   there's a great deal of cooperation which we think  originally was largely driven by the close genetic   relatedness of the bees inside the colony in fact  of course even today we have a society which is   which has a queen and then the workers who are  all her daughters are therefore closely related   I think what we could learn is two things yes they  work together but there are still actually police   in the Bee Society so um I I think the lesson  is it's not as harmonious as we would think but   some of that disharmony does have a function so  maybe I'll give you an example the most important   thing in maintaining the society is that the  queen produces all the eggs and so the workers   are all her daughters now very rarely about one  in ten thousand eggs the queen can lay about two   thousand eggs a day but one in ten thousand eggs  it turns out if you genetically analyze it is not   laid by the queen it's laid by a worker so this  is called Rebel Behavior because you're rebelling   against the Queen by producing your own offspring  not taking care of your brothers and sisters but   this could cause a problem however what happens  is that there are worker police so there are   bees that are specialized in going around they  can smell the eggs and from that they can know   whether or not it was laid by queen or by one of  her daughters and they will eat the egg that was   laid by the daughter so you could say well one in  ten thousand isn't very bad right but obviously it   is an issue because the worker police have  evolved there are cases where colonies are   called anarchistic colonies meaning that there  is anarchy because they have genetic mutations   in which worker cheating is much more widespread  and in these colonies and and I think maybe this   is also something that Society could learn they  don't survive that's because it needs the harmony   of every Everybody cooperating together and  working to take care of the Queen's Offspring   for it to actually survive the only way that we  are able to maintain these anarchistic colonies   which are fascinating to study is by artificially  feeding them because they are unable to really   sustain themselves by providing for their own  food so I think that's one of the things that   we can learn from honeybees another thing that  we could learn is we talk about the queen and um   you know it's ironic we are about to have a a new  monarch crowned right uh King Charles of England   but the queen is not sitting there on  a throne telling people or bees what to   do in fact the queen and the workers  are in a very symbiotic relationship   when a queen gets old if she reduces the number of  eggs that she can produce then she can be replaced   which means simply that her daughters will kill  her and they will take one of her eggs and raise   a new Queen now the workers have a lot of say in  raising those new Queens they take the eggs they   will actually put them into Queen cells and if  the workers decide that the colony has grown very   large and needs to split by swarming and creating  two colonies they're going to need two queens one   Queen to leave with a swarm and one Queen to stay  behind so the Queens are producing tooting and   quacking sounds which we think May communicate  to the workers that they are about to emerge the   workers have communication signals as well that  can apparently tell the queen that they should   not yet emerge because when a queen emerges she  will go around and kill all the other queens in   a normal non-swarming situation when the workers  decide that they need multiple Queens then they   could actually suppress the Queens from emerging  so it's not quite a monarchy that we think it is   the workers can kill the queen if she's not a good  Queen they can decide when the Queens emerge and   they can prevent the Queens from killing each  other the other thing that is important to   realize is that we know that honeybees have  a haplodiploid sex system what does it mean   well basically virgin birth a female bee like the  worker can lay Sons because she can produce eggs   that egg is not fertilized it becomes a  male if it's fertilized with a sperm then   it becomes a female so it's a very interesting  sex determination system what it means is that   a queen mates at the beginning of her life and  then she stores the sperm from multiple males   inside her body in a spermathica for the rest  of her life she never goes out again to mate   she as the egg is passing through the oviduct of  the queen she can decide to open a little muscle   and let sperm from the spermaphica contact the  egg fertilize it and it goes down and then it   becomes a female so you would think great the  queen can even control the sex of her offspring   but there's a catch drones are bigger than workers  you've ever looked inside a colony you'll see the   bigger bees with the very large eyes so drones  need to be born in drone comb which has a larger   diameter than worker code who builds the Drone  cub the workers so if the workers decide that they   don't want any drones they can either not build  drunk home or they can fill the Drone comb with   honey and pollen so the queen can't lay any male  eggs now you might say well how does the queen   know if it's a drone comb or a worker comb when  she's going inside the cell to lay an egg she's   actually measuring how big it is with her legs  and she can then know that this is something   where she can lay a male egg or something  where she can only lay a female egg so the   lesson from that is that there really is a kind of  reciprocal relationship between the queen and the   workers it's not just that the queen is telling  people what to do or telling the bees what to do   I think that's that's tells a lot about  what we need to learn about them there is   no dictatorship or any sort of mandatory is it  is a cooperation or everybody it's United for   a specific goal of survivorship of that Society  it so I think that tells a lot but first I want   to thank you very much for your time this was  a great discussion and congratulations with   your uh publication and good luck to you  and your team to to do much more of that   thank you very much it's been great to chat with  you and I look forward to to seeing the podcast

2023-05-31

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