Greg Ryzhov Exploring the Future of Healthcare Technology

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hi hi guys my my guest today Greg ROV uh one of  the most prominent Health Tech uh fed Tac CTO in   Berlin and uh you know we we happen to meet today  just to share our regular ideas and thoughts about   technology hi Craig Hi T nice to meet you and  thanks for inviting me on your podcast and just   to kick it off you know um you know you are in the  big number game when I'm saying big number game   like you know there are startups with u couple of  thousand users you know when I look at uh clue and   this is what what you're uh what you're doing  right now or before the my probably uh second   favorite startup in the world Urban Sports Club  you know you're solving problems that for many   um is a luxurious point to reach so you are in  the basically in the mass Market what is is it   you know how different it is from what you've done  before maybe just share your experience about con   conson Pro being in the big number games oh yeah  I I actually enjoying it quite a lot and it's not   really about big numbers but specifically clue is  about um having direct access to um to the user of   our product so it's a direct to consumer product  uh we have more than um 10 million uh users and   it's really great that you you get all this  feedback all the um suggestions uh complaints   you can really solve uh like specific uh people  issues uh previously was also interesting with   uh with Urban sports club because it's a it's a  really as you mentioned it's a great product um   connecting people uh to to uh to sport students  inspiring them to to be more active and uh and   Lead healthy lifestyle so that was also quite um  quite empowering and U great to um because it was   such a such a nice product it was really easy  to to get in touch with uh Sports enthusiasts   and uh know about what they would like to do  what kind of information they'd like to to see   on the product and so on did you have previously  yeah yeah to do sport yourself like when you were   there oh yeah I mean it's uh it's right like  a kind of multi-level dock fooding right so   you you need to use your product but at the same  time you you need to use what what your product   is offering so it was actually quite nice and um  it creates a feeling of U togetherness because   like it wasn't just like me you know like we  were discovering new sports from from I mean   like we had team event which was a pole dancing  so people like employees are like tried to like   what it is to actually um like what what this  kind of sport um is I think po dancing is one   of the hardest gymnastic activity that one could  imagine it's it's definitely not easy so there   is a absolutely no laughing about that but you  know staying with this analogy eating your own   duck food uh how do you actually do the customer  uh Discovery or collecting feedback at clue uh   it clue or maybe maybe just you know just for our  audience maybe just like a two minutes uh elevator   pitch what is clue what are you doing what is the  uh you know mission and vision for the next years   to come so clue is the um reproductive Health  um app that helps um a lot of people a lot of   women wom and people with Cycles to uh to get in  tune with their body and understand uh like what   like track their symptoms and U be able to better  understand their health and um affect you know or   improve it uh moving forward there are a lot of  um anecdotes we have about people while using our   app being able to uh discover some like or being  d noosed with uh some issues that otherwise they   had for for a very long time period and doctors  weren't just um accepting that or wouldn't confirm   the diagnosis because uh they were lacking data  so providing this data um Equity equality uh to   um to women people Cycles that's one of the  missions as and then stay with the topic how   difficult it is actually to uh to build mass  Market product and that field yet still give   a feeling to user that you know it's personal  well first of all uh we I think have of one   of the best um customer support in in the in this  kind of market so we really trying to be in touch   with with our users through multiple different  channels so it's like uh our direct uh support   like we have real people uh who are well aware  about our product um about the domain of the   female health and can actually help to not just  solve an issue with um with the app but advise   people on on specific issues that they might be  uh might be facing so then is like a channels we   we with different channels we have social media we  actually our product team is doing user interviews   multiple per week so we are in the like constant  like permanent state of being in touch with with   our users learning from them um taking their  feedback taking their complaints reacting on   it and delivering improved uh experience back uh  through our product was it uh any did you have a   funny feeling what kind of startup am I going  to be doing like because it's it's it's it's   tailored for female uh primarily for female  like I at least from the outside perception   I mean like first thing that that was actually a  question I got asked uh during the interview and   uh you like you never think about it that it's  somehow connected but it actually is so we have   like our like females in our lives like uh a a lot  right so I have wife I have a teenage daughter so   I can actually relates to a lot of things that  happening in their life and uh honestly I'm I'm   really um appreciative that I can contribute to uh  help them on first on the like literacy topic and   like being educated uh from the uh you know like  scientific sources rather than just learning about   uh certain things from their friends or families  um and the second of on of all actually like help   them to deal with uh with certain um things in  in their lives you know I'm I'm I'm I'm recently   it's probably come with the age the older we  get the more conscious we become about our uh   body and U uh longetivity and um what you're  doing is basically um you know helping helping   people helping user to stay really conscious  about their biology and I'm I'm just wondering   if you if you already untapped that potential of  user treating an app very consciously How likely   is it to start adding on more and more to clue  like I don't know some kind of explainability   of your blood results or explainability of your  uh blood pressure because like like let let me   just keep keep on with my questions yeah like if  I ask you you know my my blood pressure is 120 by   170 whatever like whatever we we normally get I  wouldn't know if it's good in my for my age for   my body type or bad and I always thinking damn  would it be nice just to have like results but   better better explainable absolutely I mean I'm  totally with you more or less in the same I guess   age group right so i' really like to know about  is it normal and that this is the question um   a lot of users on our platform asking it's like  am I normal because there is like might be they   might be going through some experience that um  they might might feel it's like totally unique   and like no one else has it gives people anxiety  um and so on so actually like this is one of the   one of the questions that um that we'd like uh  them to answer through through our product um we   we have like a lot of data collected as you can  imagine from like people tracking their symptoms   um recently we started a focused uh like work on  actually giving back to uh to our users providing   them with um with insights with statistics  about um about their health and helping them   on this like Journey uh like discovering is it  normal or um or it's better to actually see a specialist do you imagine uh I don't know next  year like just like you know moving forward start   adding on more and more towards what you have  already in your portfolio or clue will always   going to be in this Niche with uh how did you  frame it reprodu reprod Ian it's a reproductive   Health reprodu reproductive health so I think one  aspect is there is a lot to do in in this Niche   right because it's actually it's something that um  females liveing with from uh basically their first   period till um the last period and and Beyond so  it's really kind of a life companion uh product   um as you can unink so recently we launched um  a peram menopause feature that expands the uh   the life stages that we support and yeah but like  the the number of life stages is finite uh there   is like an nend to it but there lot like there  is a huge depth in terms of what we can U do and   what kind of functionality we can provide for  uh for each of the stages great and and if if   we're talking about like you know bringing the  live companion in terms of Technology because   technology always change and evolve what is  your uh Tech stack uh for the for the mobile   apps it's a native um at the moment so we we  using Swift for iOS with like Swift UI and um   cotlin uh with like a jetpack family like jet pack  composed specifically on Androids um I also want   to say that our apps are pretty modern we just uh  rebuil them um last year after like having Legacy   for almost 10 years uh with a lot of changes you  can imagine what what code uh looks like after   after 10 years of like active development so we  actually built a pretty uh slim um app where on   which we can iterate super fast which is super  stable um honestly like in the whole my career   I never seen such stable app uh in terms of Crash  rates and and so on so yeah um that's I would say   it's pretty modern tax Tech that we're currently  using and yeah we're looking further how how we   can make it better um especially in the area of  the artificial intelligence and like figuring   out what what else like how can we improve uh  delivery of in insights to to our users have   you been playing around with uh I don't know Apple  watch uh the OS that you know uh allows basically   people to have their uh yeah period tracks right  in the watch yeah because up Apple is quite like   you know pushy when you have like one e ecosystem  covered and it just rolls out to any other I I   think that's what Apple does right and they've  been really good at it they been really trying   to cover um a lot of use cases from the uh like a  breadth perspective um in terms of the depths um I   think as it's our top priority probably we would  be uh better in terms of actually like digging   deeper into uh into reproductive Health topics  and like definitely Apple like as well as Google   as any other producer of um wearables let's say  um it is really a great insights or data we can   uh we can get and like help to proove our um our  assessments our results when we were preparing   for this uh podcast the main topic is always AI  on the on the top of people's mind and you know   how How likely it is actually that let's say the  next version of sha GPD and by the way they've   just just just announced the the new like a turbo  chat with all kind of new features would be I'm   I'm just driving up scenario that I say okay you  know my period started today just like remember   this date and then then uh drive up all the uh  simulation what's going to happen next because   I believe that in theory your app also works  based on specific time time stamps and then   predictabilities and analytics of what what might  happen and you know how to behave in a specific um   you know like time time zone How likely you would  compete with ch GPT in the next couple of I would   say mounts not years because the time goes so  fast right now I mean I don't know if compete   is the right word um I think it's U it's about  actually um so if you think of it there is no   like in the end it's like a personal person Health  right and I think the compete in this area it gets   us somewhere where you know like it's actually  not like not the benefit for the person is uh   is on top of the prioritization or you know like  doing something but rather figuring out how can   you make more profit from it so that's kind of  my personal perspective on things but I think   utilizing Chad gipt or any other form of AI for  the variety of aspects uh that we we can have   that definitely uh it's going to happen like  there is there is no really other way around   it in the current um in the current environment  well maybe not in a German Market because uh in   Germany and this is what I what what I've learned  in U by being also in a medical sector right now   people don't have a habit to to pay pay for their  medicine and actual uh to be kind of uh conscious   enough to be a self-pay there's always like this  uh institution of uh crank con or basically P like   a pension pension State ins insurer who would  cover that up and if we stay with that because   you're you're private up up like you the users  pay premium to to get an insights was there any   uh consideration and the um for the for this  product to be covered by K conas in Germany   I mean definitely yes so and um like maybe just  taking a step back um while ger like while while   we based in Germany and uh we we are protected  like all data protected by gdpr and so on um   our main Market is actually the United States  so um we we had a product which was certified   by FDA um and uh yeah we had it running for a  year collecting Insight so there is actually um   we we developed good connection to um to like  Health Care Providers say in the United States   and here and so on so we we are in the again the  permanent state state of like figuring out what's   the better path to um address people health and  help them and and definitely honestly if having   insurers paying for that that's a great benefit  yeah the FD FD FDA is the uh for the listeners   it's a and administration what is it what is it  again like Food and Drug Administration Food and   Drug Administration why why food are they also a  suppl they look at everything yeah probably yes   yeah I've heard like you know one of my favorite  uh podcast is Andrew huberman or uh leex fredman   and they they they they many time they have  guests and they all uh call the FDA either evil or   greater evil with the good intention so basically  you know although they they have this uh you know   patient uh Patient First mentality but until until  you get there basically there is either like the   corporate always wins and otherwise I mean I don't  know like because you've been going through this   process we you know I've I've only have experien a  different type of certification um if you want to   be like a medical op that is able to be subscribed  by the prescription by doctor you need to have you   need to be a medical product yeah um or medicine  product how we say it in Germany and a lot of time   when I read these you know compliance do docs  I don't understand does it even make sense but   like you know the way it's been written it looks  like it's been designed still for The Med medical   devices where they operate as a in a surgery room  and not for the digital product yeah exactly that   that's exactly how it is all like majority  of Regulation is designed to treat software   as a medical device as a real physical medical  device which is not uh 100% aligned with uh agile   methodologies that are um like basically adopted  by by software development since you know almost   30 years if not more um but um it is exactly like  that we are also regulated as a uh software ascal   device um but we actually trying to get say like  the the positive aspect of that because you know   as a software engineer you always talk about oh  the importance of documentation the um how great   it is if you can uh connect the certain bug or  issue to a specific feature that was developed   at a certain point in time um and like have the  proper postmortem processes and so on and so forth   I I Curr I personally see that uh compliance  um helps in in a lot of this um areas so I I   wouldn't I wouldn't call compliance topics as  like evil but rather you know we can coexist   it's definitely possible to uh to move fast uh and  be compliant you know uh touching touching upon   that topic we we've been going through the isms  certification and that requires exactly the uh   traceability of every work unit that goes through  software development process so when you're doing   when you're merging your uh pull request uh in the  in the head of a u message you write the um the   ticket number yeah from jir yeah yeah and then  uh so every merge pull request is kind of like   a representation of a j board so it I actually  yeah I was at the beginning I was saying what   the what the heck like you know what do you want  me to to do with that but once it start working I   realized there is a lot of kind of chronology  that you could leverage for for a benefit but   only in some parts some some other parts I I'm  still quite a you know uh rebeling against so   question to you as a CTO of that organization and  it looks like you've you've managed FDA and many   other certification uh how to stay sane and still  be Innovative to how to take risks basically uh   in such a regulated environment I mean first  of all like risks is the main part of this   regulated environment right so like while while  you developing something you are always looking   into how to mitigate those risks and what kind  of controls you put in place um to be able to um   to mitigate those risk or reduce them to uh like  to to Bear a minimum before I went into uh Health   um and like Fitness uh industry I was working  mostly in operations so Logistics supply chain   warehousing and so on there are a lot of processes  so you actually like you help build systems that   help people to get through this routine processes  through automation through um like you know   speeding things up like some performance or like  algorithmical improvements if it comes to like   fulfillment and so on so I honestly think that  uh like a regulated environment is the like it's   the environment with predefined process where you  can actually um first automate it like automate a   lot of uh steps of this process and the second is  this process actually enforces accountability so   you really need like you have uh people or roles  that are responsible for um for making certain   decisions which is also um I'd say it's it's good  um you have you have accountability by Design you   have like processes that you can speed up by  Design so you do it and then you can focus on   creative stuff you can figure out actually okay  hey there is this risk let's let's figure out   something to to mitigate this or it's it's just it  doesn't stop Innovation otherwise you know there   won't be any innovation in the field of Health uh  and I think this industry um is like grew a lot   over past say like 100 years or something well it  looks like we grew we grew a lot and we grew fast   but you know once you start diving in into into  like a medical sector or you it does it doesn't   need to be General gener German or or American um  even the fact that data patient transfer is sent   in hl7 standard which is coded in uh uh in the  format that's been designed in pre- Internet era   so this ADT connection comes down to like before  before Jason before we had Json now they start   adapting to this new methodology of fire where you  could you know be uh file agnostic but still like   my challenge right now with every time you talk  to a clinic hospital or like a chain of clinics   and very first question how do we integrate with  you and it's a puzzle basically there is a always   like you know this elephant in the room oh we  actually don't do it it's someone else like you   need to we need to talk to this company the  other company we just provide like a medical   service the other comp company provides compliance  the other one server management so somewhere at   the end at the value chain there is somebody who  could answer your question how do we connect and   then it turns out that connection isn't even  possible because like I don't know some legal   some legal issues so you know I'm curious how do  you think about like technology being a driver of   innovation or is it even possible or we still  going to be just optimizers like in logistics   we only optimize some specific algorithm speeds  and quality but Innovation is still going to be   done somewhere else that's a good question thank  you uh well I mean it's a I think currently the   the the most of evolution is happening on the like  software side of things um and while uh the whole   kind of maybe regulations or like catching up to  that or catching up to the uh like possibilities   that that new software brings um mindset I think  still mindset is changing like mindset is already   um I was I was written some um statistics couple  of years ago um and there is a like in Germany   specifically 40 or 50% of young doctors that's  uh like that starts at uh like practices like   they they are asking for um for like a software  for like improved uh systems to to be able to do   their job to improved you know communication uh  like uh data transmission and so on I mean the   demand is there um in general I mean like reg  regulated environment is lower to catch up but   I think it is already happening like technology  drives Innovation uh it's just you know maybe   there will be some some Tipping Point when uh  when regul regulatory side catch up um and it   all going to go like uh start moving exponentially  and it it is changing really it's like from the   from the younger generation people who grew up  with mobile phones um with computers with like   technology everywhere it is going to change they  just like won't be able even to do their job like   in in some governmental institution without uh  using the uh the tools and services that they used   to so I think it's it's just uh it is helping  it is changing maybe in this particular area   is going a bit slower but um it the Innovation is  happening it is happening the question is if it's   happening in our backd door or not I was yeah sure  I mean but you know it's uh I I know like a friend   of mine he is working on on the uh platform that  helps to um modernize this medical uh record and   uh the the doct workstation uh sort of software um  it's a lot of work it's a huge amount of work you   have to you know like visit a lot of um cabinets  let's say but in the end uh in the end the there   is a demand and there is like a huge desire to  have those areas be on par with what's happening   in and say other companies that are less Reg I  was I was listening to podcast with Joe Rogan   as like probably everyone knows him so he uh he  had this uh treatment done with uh I think it's   called uh uh uh stum cells so basically some kind  of like you know Innovative way of injecting um   this kind of you know native material into broken  knees and shoulders but it's not permitted in us   so they they all do this in Mexico and I um I've  been res researching this uh Innovation clinics   about like you know the the those who experiment  with things that not normally allowed in Germany   or us they they always either in Mexico or in  Bahamas or in some kind of like you know exotic   States but this guy seems to basically come up  with all this crazy [ __ ] or even remember this   Chinese Doctor Who who cloned a human now he's  in prison I forgot his name but he was like a   very famous doctor for for cling human uh he was  also doing these experiments outside of us but   then they know they got him so I'm just like you  know I'm I just wonder how how it's going to look   like in a couple of years uh Greg looking back  at your uh personal track record of stuff that uh   you know you could say okay in this company there  was a single killer feature that actually change I   don't know the history of the company would you  be able to like say that was there some like if   you look at the clue or uh or previously Urban  sports club was there something like you know   mother feature or killer well killer feature  normally it kills but like a mother feature is   like the most important feature that you could  group everything else around would you would   you would you name name this kind of feature for  clue and uh the previous uh startups that you were building if you asking for a silver bullet that  would probably stuff related to uh monitoring   and observability it is not user facing but the  amount of benefits you get as an engineering team   that just overweights uh like almost every user  user facing feature that that you deliver because   you know that your platform is stable you know  like when the issue is happening before it gets   you know escalated to uh to support or somewhere  in in social media um you you actually know how   your your platform is behaving so I think um in  like throughout my history like a main focus from   like a day Zer was on improving um observability  um of the platform then improving reliability on   the platform so that what I I would say is the  the killer feature that changes a lot um for for   the company and how it operates so that's that's  really kind of uh would be my answer like super   interesting because like uh observability tools or  uh monitoring tools is not the first uh you know   the the first thing that is normally integrated  you you yeah and that's very unfortunate yeah   that's very unfortunate exactly what are you using  for uh monitoring observability I mean we're using   day to dog I don't know I don't want to advertise  I have experience with other tools so uh I I use I   think like the most of the main players and it's  really it's less about the tool more about the   mindset and the um kind of the approach you you  have um to software development where um obser   ability comes like if not first but like really  like a second is the least place you can put it   yeah I we we use data do too uh I love everything  but pricing oh well but other otherwise great   great tool like you know we we actually use it  for all kind of monitoring in including like you   know real time user monitoring and like you know  what what they do what kind of video they watch   ET ETA I mean honestly it's just like where where  to invest right so there are some companies who underinvested and so on and when you know  something happens uh people start actually uh   thinking about that but it's a bit too late um  so I'd really I'd really like to to prioritize   those topic topics and and Greg like just to play  uh again with you you and I we we we we about to   start a new company in the medical sector and  you are known for uh for building great teams   so one thing that I've already uh learn from you  so before we even you know like code our backand   and then start thinking about architecture we  need to uh really think about observability   and user uh Analytics and like platform analytics  so we need to have this layer of uh understanding   what is happening and then build on top so this  is this is covered but how do we how do we attract   great talents how do we build great engineering  culture that is resilient actually to elevate us   above any other competitors in the market I mean  what uh worked for me or what I feel works for me   um is um kind of trying to be as transparent  as you can be when it comes like with people   when it comes to actually um addressing why  like why are we doing something like what's   the problem I trying to address um and and just  kind of be be honest and direct right right so   um then when people have this Clarity of why  are we doing um I mean for sure there is like   the emotional component some people can commit to  certain things some people cannot um but I think   just like having the um the eye level uh dialogue  with with folks um works for me so I I honestly um   I never isolated myself from the team so I would  like to think of myself as a as a part of the team   as being approachable being on more like a helping  side rather than just you know uh running around   screaming on everyone but um I think having this  like honest relationship like I Lev relationship   with with your team uh helps to to actually make  make this team um a high performance um Team what   what about if we uh got in a team then have and  have some toxic members and they already start   like I don't know was was there any well sure I'm  sure you had a lot of um stories to share how to   deal with toxic members or how how to eliminate  toxicity in a team an engineering team there is   always some some level of toxicity there here  and there I mean again through uh timely and   direct feedback right so uh there is a tendency  of like maybe recently so like that I see a lot   um of like conflict avoidance so people tend to  not bring topics that um uncomfortable or that   may frustrate someone else and it just makes the  conflict grow to the um to the extent where the   environment becomes toxic just because certain  things um are not being addressed in time so I   think U basically calling calling things by by  their names um trying to eliminate number like   reduce number of elephants that you have in the  room uh with you would would really help to um to   address situations that might be might becoming  toxic and if you identify the situation uh as I   mean like toxic is really is like a just a it's a  weird uh term to use because you know some people   tend to call toxic just behaviors that they they  don't like personally but it's it's just about   them not about the the other person um but if you  really feel that the the team morale um is going   down then very important to react on on thing  fast and not let it Let It Grow but Greg you   you L the team of uh various sizes I don't know  you had like a what was what was the biggest team   you had I think it was around like 90 people  90 people well that that's that's a very big   engineering team so you probably had different  teams or squads or whatever like a chapters   depends on the structure so normally when you  when you already building this environment or   you are in this environment you don't interact  with individuals you normally have engineering   leads where you interact on a daily basis but  your one-on on with team members you know depends   on the the size but you could you could not talk  mounts with some some guys especially if you work   in the in the um remote environment and then your  engineering leader comes to you and says hey you   know actually you know there there is this and  this situation so I'm asking like for you for   your tips how do you actually make sure that you  operate on this you know strategic level but still   be remain part of the team this is how you frame  it I mean it it again it depends like what what   are you bringing into the team right uh you you  have all these team leads uh or any other leads   for a reason and like this reason is that you  cannot manage the above the I think it's like 15   uh people like you possibly cannot maintain the  level of of uh communication that's enough for   like creating trust but people that you um that  report to you or that you manage you really need   to trust them so if some like I think I I also  kind of tell to uh to considered trust as a as   a default setting in my relationship with with my  reports so in this case I think that that creates   certain like a again environment which I I believe  is good so people uh empowered to make certain   decisions they know their mandate they can um act  accordingly I can only support I can provide some   insights can provide opinions but in the end the  accountability is with the person um and the other   thing is how to be the part of the team is to  try to um like share your experiences um share   the knowledge you have like try to bring it to  the team but uh find the right way so it's like   should be really oh I know better and you should  do like exactly like this uh but at the same time   if in for certain things um you just know okay  it's like this industry practice or like you   know better but like still you need to put effort  uh in properly selling certain things to the team   so they they get Buy in they see you as a again  on eye level it's it's really just like comes   down to for for certain things I mean you you  really need to consider everyone as as equal and   don't play oh I'm CTO card every every time you  want to make certain decisions so that's that's   how I go how how often have you been uh actually  playing the C your card or been guilty of sneaking   up some decisions into individual Team Planning  not often I'd say I like maybe like it it's more   often happens on the on the organizational side  of things it's like team design as you said you   know like there might be certain you know like  when the organization goes through different   stages there might be certain adjustments um in a  team structure so I think this is where like from   the structure perspective I could play this card  just because like the context is is wider so I I   have like a maybe some other aspect that um are  not known to uh to the team lead but honestly   like when it comes to software development like  Engineers know better than us like last time I I   wrote code was I think four years ago already so  um I need to trust them I need to uh like just   figure out how what's the what are the principles  that I cannot um like sacrifice or like the team   should should have and how I can ensure that  uh you know team team leaves uh to these like   principles Greg just for the uh way of advice um  um because I've been known to play this card a   lot you know like for maybe it's also part part of  my personality and I I uh I I like to wa Bic like   before I was uh I was saying like I love I have  to move fast and break things so famous Facebook   thingy not always working in regulated environment  but uh you know throughout my time I've learned to   trust my team and actually more uh buil empowered  team structure where you delegate your ownership   and accountability um directly on individual  however sometimes I have this feeling oh my   God it goes too slow it goes to SL it could have  been done faster we could have simplified this we   could have we could have skipped a few steps  and just I don't know like make that simpler   and I and then I join refinement meetings and I  say oh what about this and that so and you know   you play this card although you don't you don't  impose Authority but it feels in the room oh my   God this guy is here and he's my manager and if  I say no you know I don't know what's going to   happen so you you do this unintentionally but  you've actually learned uh not to do it so how   would you advise or how would you coach someone  like me and say hey Sergey you know like you know   I've been there I've done that there is a better  way what should I what should I do um so like how   I learn it for myself I think it's uh it's kind of  differentiating between um I don't care and I let   it uh I let it go so I don't care would be like  oh just like yeah whatever like whatever happens   like really I'm just like I'm just here like not  gonna um not going to interfere like Let It fail   and whatever um Let It Go is uh for me it sounds  more like empowering so you need to let people   fail as well I don't know if you look back in  your history like how did you learn things like   you probably learn from a lot of failures right  I learned for sure like I you know uh all these   kind of like incidents that that were created by  me in the past like this learning or experience is   still with me and it allowed me to grow it allow  allowed me to to be where I am so I think you need   let to let people fail um you need let people make  decisions uh not to prove them wrong but like to   actually give them an opportunity to learn and if  you have this opportunity like if they learn then   you actually uh will will spend like way less time  worrying and uh trying to interfere with them and   you know like they will they will be autonomous  and and empowered but like you need to take uh   you need to keep like uh to hold them accountable  it's like that that's the key right so if they   fail you really need to ensure that the learnings  are somehow uh like reflected in some shape of   form and then um transmit it further so if you  lose learnings from the certain incident it's   just like yeah uh as you didn't learn you're just  like failed basically but if you failed then learn   that's that's actually pretty good um outcome  so if I um um um like recop it so if someone   fails it needs to be also linked with the postm or  basically some kind of like you know investigation   that that would lead for these individual or a  team to to learn from mistakes yeah yeah like and   if if if if we if we repeat the same mistake then  then it's basically something something is wrong   with the process Well yeah if we keep repeating  the same things like that means that we we don't   learn and I think uh in a lot of um performance  platforms or Career Development platforms learning   is the one of the um criteria of of progression  so you just see why learning is not happening   and then address that GRE what is your golden or  like you know I wouldn't call it Silver Bullet   engineering kpi like how how do you if you if you  come and see different teams how you measure them   against each other well uh I don't that's uh I  think you like if you measure against something   that should be the the top targets or like goals  that you set for uh teams and individuals um I I   honestly like I kind of feel the same with we  say recruiting I'm not a big fan of comparing   people with each other I'm rather go with like  okay is this people fit for the job yes or no   pros and cons um and like make a decision but like  really when you start comparing um that uh doesn't   doesn't get you to to the right places um in terms  of the kpi I mean honestly H so one thing that you   can tell for sure that there is no silver bullets  like abs like it does not or at least like no one   figured it out um there are a lot of aspects  uh there are a lot of things that you can look   into um to evaluate performance of the team or  performance of an individual but is really uh   it's like a combination It's a combination of I  think um some more kind of qualitative things like   again like learning collaboration communication  and so on then the uh the outcomes which is what   like what team uh can achieve or what is what  team is achieving how they are doing against   their their goals and targets and uh the output  so I I personally think that the output is the   the same met like also metric that you need to  look into um and it basically goes the number   of say deployments um whatever p i I know I like  the very controversial thing to say like looking   at poll requests or tickets but honestly uh if you  look at at it from the say uh from a distance you   start seeing patterns so it's like if your team is  relatively stable so you can actually see patterns   that are related to certain like decisions or  events um that affect output and also like one   one one team is like went through this you know  like storming norming uh phases like it does have   like have consistent output so the fluctuation  you can actually see and use it as a as a metric   as well yeah pretty interesting uh I'm I'm asking  this question because it's it it appears on every   um discussion like every time you have engineering  uh versus business you know you always want to   establish some kind of like you know performance  kpi and many believe that uh number of deploys   or number of releases um seems to be like the the  uh like quite Universal metric however I've also   started to look at my board as you mentioned when  you come from perspective and I look at releases   and I see One release contains two tickets  the other release but might might be eight or   10 so it's basically there is the you can only be  consistent if you if if you are inside inside the   team and you know what's been shipped otherwise  it's basically a nice number to communicate but   otherwise doesn't reflect on the on the reality  yeah I mean like deployment is also tricky number   because say like um on mobile you you cannot I  mean you can but it doesn't really make sense if   you release multiple times per day I'm not talking  about you know like feature flags and and uh and   like a over the- year updates but in general like  if if you if you're using traditional methods for   the mobile development uh you are quite restricted  and there is also dependency on sech party that's   been like Apple and Google reviewing your um your  apps but it's definitely one of the key components   so we we have achieved like a weekly releases on  on our mobile platforms it helps a lot it helps   also to um to create this sort of like feeling  of um say relative safety because you know like   if something goes wrong mildly like if there is a  noncritical bug or the design Improvement that you   need to do or yeah or like something around that  um there is a release coming in seven days or like   less so you're just like it's it's predictable  uh like velocity of the releases and that creates   kind of feeling of oh yeah okay so we forgot it  this time but it's coming like next time um so I'm   not talking about like incidents where you need to  hot fix and like so on so but in general kind of   creates this like a bit of a warm safety feeling  of yeah like I can I can actually change it next   week and not wait for another months have you  noticed uh increase of velocity when they you know   how fast they do reviews and uh up app store and  and and Google Play because like be before it uh   I was at fre sometimes we could have waited three  to four days uh an up store but they they getting   I I wonder if they also start using some kind of  machine learning algorithms if there is no major   changes in the code because my recent experience  I was uh uh renewing Android application it was   only like slight text changes and it was renewed  within a minute so no human would def did look at   that and I was probably okay so the pipeline works  like okay no code changes automatically flag is uh   you know approved so with I wish it will be done  by something yeah something artificial maybe it's   going to be not days but hours in the future so  there's going to be like a threshold for mobile   applications to be released on a daily basis let's  see let's see uh the you know to wrap it up like I   would love to ask who do you normally use as your  coach or advisor or somebody who do you like who   do you look up to to become a better aito thanks  for your question it could be your mom I don't   know like someone some everyone has someone in  in their life no I mean like I think a lot of   uh a lot of approaches that I use that they are  coming from from my family like the the way I   was I was raised what was um what was important  for for for them and me and uh uh so yeah that's   that definitely influenced uh me a lot I think  I'm just like uh I'm trying to read a lot um and   analyze stuff that that is coming from from like  a different um different sources like I really   cannot call it a name um that I would say okay  that's a one name I can like maybe like on the   personal level like one one um very influential  CTO in my life was uh Christian hardenberg from   um rocket internet so like we're gonna we're  gonna take Christian tomorrow in the LinkedIn   so Christian will get the I mean he's super great  when it comes to you know figuring out what's good   for for Engineers for business and so on so um  like personally on me I think while we haven't   really worked directly a lot but I was part of  the uh of the rocket internet ecosystem for some   time and uh yeah just like uh learning from like  observing that that kind of gave me also a lot of   yeah any recent authors or books that you read  that made a um you know impact on what you do   and how you do things uh just ordered today new  book by ger orish um who is like the author of   The pragmatic engineer uh pragmatic developer  blog so let's see um there are really there's   like a lot of good stuff around um yes staying  pragmatic is very important in our trade so uh   to um you know to to wrap it up um uh you know  I'm going to ask Greg for more links uh some   recommendations uh also his startups uh you know  uh anything that he would like to share with us   please find in the in the posts below the video  and yeah and if you like to hear more um talks   with um powerful and um mindful engineers and  C in Berlin just uh uh subscribe and uh let's   stay connected thanks a lot Greg and uh thank you  thank you it was really a lot of fun and pleasure   to join you yeah I I enjoyed it a lot thanks  a lot and uh take care buddy yeah take bye bye

2023-11-15

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