Hello. And. Welcome. I am nella for her diet, and this. Is doha, debates, a very special, edition, of doha debates, brought to you from our virtual, studio. With our guests, our speakers. Our virtual audience, connector, and moderator. All joining. Remotely, from all over the world due to the coronavirus. Pandemic, i myself, i'm here in my house in london. It's so good to have you we have an astounding. Show coming up uh. Our season finale, of season one i believe our tenth, episode. All of us are here, to ask, and try and find solutions, to one very important. Question, the debate topic. Of this show. Is answer, asking the question, do we need. New institutions. For what feels like a new, era. Do we need new institutions. For what feels like a new, era, this is all about global, cooperation. And what we need to do to ensure it in the future now the debate. Topic is a very important one and the speakers, that we have lined up are incredible. Layma bowie. Is a liberian, peace activist, and nobel laureate. Echi. Temo koran, is a turkish, author and political, commentator. And janis farofakis. Is a greek economist. And a politician. Hanging on to their every word, will be, our virtual, studio, audience who you should be able to see there behind me i'm so thrilled to have you all there, joining us remotely, from all over the world wave if you hear your nation we've got folks from south africa, rwanda. Palestine. Wave if you hear it, lithuania. Poland portugal. Qatar, you are all welcome, cambodia. Mali zimbabwe, indonesia, ethiopia, south africa. South korea, even i've run out of breath just saying that i want to see a little way from all of you just to know that you are real and you are there good to see you guys. We will also be joined, by, our, wonderful, connector, dr govinda, clayton, who joins, me now, dr clayton. Uh this is a very big, difficult, broad, subject. How are you going to be listening to see if we can find some consensus. And. Clarity. I can't hear govinda. Yet. But i'm sure we'll figure that out. It's all live i did say so great. Great to see you um yeah i think this is exactly, the right topic to be having, time to be having this debate. As uh the secretary general of the uae and antonio, gutierrez. Recently, said. Um, the international, institutions. Are across, roads. At the moment and so the direction they go is really not clear so i think this is exactly the time for us to be having this discussion, and and my role is going to be to try and come in and, stitch the discussion, together and feinstein, find some points of consensus, and common ground. Well our virtual audience who are behind us there govinda. They will be vital because we will be voting, at two points during the show to see, what everyone, makes of their wonderful, solutions, and the interesting, insight that our three, amazing, speakers, will bring, i think everyone is virtually, ready, to get online, and have this out, i'm very excited, to have you guys our audience, from around the world joining us on all our social media platforms, remember. I love hearing from you your comments. Your questions, your thoughts. Is what you're hearing enraging, you, is it, inspiring. You let me know what you think, use the hashtag, dear world we are. Doha debates, on every social media platform you can think of. So i think the set is ready, our guests are ready our moderator. Factory, is ready, i'm going to hand over to her now, for this, doha debate. Dear world. We need to talk. Welcome to doha debates. Where we are searching for solutions, to global. Challenges. The pandemic, has affected, us all, no country is spared. When it comes to fighting a global pandemic, there is no place, for, me first, all of those countries, were ripping off the united, states for many years. International, cooperation. Is at the crossroads. Is that a chance for the world, to reboot. If you want to continue, doing the same thing you did in the past, fine, i think they should do something, different, i don't believe, that a big bank reform.
Is The way forward. Climate, change, hunger, racial, injustice, and poverty. Our world is in crisis, and in desperate, need of leaders and institutions. Who can work together to address our global challenges. Leaders who can tackle pandemics. Resolve, conflicts. And break down barriers. Institutions. That represent, all nations, all peoples, fairly. Our global institutions, were challenged, long before the covet 19 crisis. Today, they are on the brink, but will this pandemic. Push them over the edge. Can global institutions. Build on the power structures, of the last century. Guide us through the next era. Can they be reformed. Or should they be dismantled. And replaced, by institutions. That befit, our times. And meet today's, challenges. That, is our debate, please welcome your noha debates, moderator. Pita. Fakhri. Hello and welcome to our second virtual, doha, debate, over the past 75. Years the united nations has played a central role. In forging, the noble ideal, of multilateral. Cooperation. Overcoming, the cold war, and maintaining. As much as it could, world peace. But today, its role its standing, its effectiveness. Its very credibility. Are at stake. As is the case with the bretton woods institutions, the imf, and the world bank. Which were established. Three quarters of a century ago. To organize, international, finance, based on a gold standard system that has long disappeared. And on the vision. Of its powerful, members. But the world has evolved, new political, forces, new technologies. New financial, means have emerged. Do current global institutions. Need to be retooled, to serve us for another 75, years or more, or has the time indeed come to dismantle. The existing, architecture, and build new institutions. That reflect. The balance of powers. The paradigms. And the needs, of the 21st, century. A sign of the times perhaps today our audience will be online, including our voting panel made up of young people from around the world. And we count on everyone's. Spirited, participation. And as always we're live streaming on facebook, youtube, and twitter. And here to tell us more about how you can all join the conversation, is our correspondent. Nedo farhadayatnel. Thank you rita yes, we are always, excited, to hear from you our show. Is dependent, on your perspectives. And, i will be, feeding a lot of the questions, and the comments, that our viewers, who are watching. Send through as ever you can get in touch with us, on twitter, on instagram, on facebook, on many of the social media platforms, we are at doha debates use the hashtag, dear world, so we can easily, find, your comments, and put them into the show, that's what i want to do i want to get your comments and thoughts into our debate. Thanks very much lafarn before we get started with this timely. Debate, let's get a better sense of what we're actually talking about. Institutions. Like the united, nations have helped stabilize, the world for decades. But they seem to be no match for today's problems. They're struggling, to take meaningful, worldwide. Action on climate change racial injustice. And inequality. And now they're stumbling, on a coordinated. Response to coven 19.. But there is hope. Multilateral. Organizations. Like the un. Nato, the imf, the world bank. Were all born. From a global, catastrophe. The second world war. So in the 1940s. World leaders came together. To create political. Economic. And military. Systems. That would, maintain. Peace and a balance of power and of course. Rebuild. War-torn, europe. It's just that now, these institutions. Are, well. Pretty, old. And the world looks, very different, today. Plus, these institutions. Were created, by and for the richest. And most powerful nations, in the late 1940s. Some of today's most outspoken. Activists. Are starting to hold that power to account, and demand, action. Can these global organizations. Change. Or is it time for them to retire. In parts of the west a growing nationalist, movement, has brought a ways of authoritarian.
Leaders To power. It said the uk to separate from the european, union, and the us. To pull out of alliances, like the paris agreement, on climate change, and the iran nuclear, deal, which it had itself negotiated. And five non-western, countries, that represent, nearly half the world's population. Are leveraging, their own economic, power. Known by the acronym, brics. The countries, have formed their own bank to rival the imf. And world bank. Here's the thing. The un, and other multilateral. Organizations. Have always, relied, on the leadership. And economic, commitment. Of the largest world powers. These institutions. Are only as strong as their members. And it really comes down to their will. And their sense of responsibility. From the hashtag, metoo, movement, to fridays, for future, to black lives matter. Activists. Across the globe are taking to the streets. And demanding, real change. Could these movements, lead to new, ways of organizing. And wielding, power. Can they hold, our stodgy, global institutions. To account. Or even, maybe replace. Them. Too old and archaic, to set in their own ways, is it a question of change, or retire, the world has certainly, changed. Over the last seven, or eight decades, so what does the future. Of global governance, look like can we fix, our current international, institutions, to face our global challenges. Or do we need to simply rethink, and rebuild, them, from the ground, up, we'll be exploring, this and much more with our guests and they are, nobel, laureate, and peace activist, leima bowie. Author, and political, commentator, et cetera. And economist. Academic, and politician. Yanis, varuvakis. It's great to have you all with us for this debate, we'll of course be joined a little later by our connector. Govinda, clayton. And it is always good to see you govinda, will be with you, shortly but first let's go straight, to our guests. Our first speaker, leima, bowie. Is a woman's rights advocate, and peace activist, from liberia. She won the nobel peace prize in 2011. For her work leading a woman's peace movement, that helped to end the second liberian, civil war. Every time there, is a problem, in our world, every time. We have a crisis. Our first instinct, is. Let's develop. New institutions. To replace, the old ones. Almost 80 years ago the un. The world bank the imf, and other entities. Were started, as a means. Of looking, at some of the crisis that the world was faced with. I must submit. We need to empower, and reform, our current global, institution. Equal, representation. Of the global, south. I refuse, to accept. That in this current dispensation. Of our world, that five countries. Should continue. To, deal with, security. Have five permanent, membership, at the security, council. When the u.n was established. Many of the countries. Were in. Colonial. Life. It's time for us to move away from that, it's time for us to reform. With women empowerment. Finding equal spaces, for women to be in those positions. I believe. Any new institutions. That come with the current war structure. Of power, over, will, turn out to be the same, we saw 50, years ago later after the u.n, when the, g20. Started. It came as a means of mimicking, the u.n, and other entities. What happened, now the g20, is finding it very difficult. To do the things that is set up to do, i believe, any, new institution. That starts. And starts with the same structure. That we see in our world today. Will continue, to, do what it did, what we need, right now. Is to have structures. That cause, together. Our collective, humanity. The global, crisis, that we see happening, in our world today, has only, amplified, the loopholes. And today, we need to address, those, by reforming. The entities. And making sure that we start looking at people. Centered, around the values, and the visions.
That Those entities. Were established, for, in the first place, and the core. Of any reform. Should be, our, collective. Humanity. Not one group, after against the other, we should decide, and determine, that we'll work on racism. Sexism. And all of those things that pit us together, as a people, until our world begins, to think. Collectively. We will continue, to have the problems, that we have. No new institution. Will function. And do any better than any of the current institutions. If people. The values, of human life the values of equality. The values of justice. Are not, front and center, and these are the values, that these current entities. Were formed on and we should just go back, and reform, them, i submit. Our second speaker. Tempuran. Is a turkish author and political, commentator. Her forthcoming, book, together. 10 choices, for a better now, outlines, a path to put faith in humanity. First. International, democratic. Institutions. Like the un. Lost their moral, ground. And global. Credibility. At the start of the war in iraq. Their last residue, of prestige. Is wasted, in syria. During the war. The power vacuum, that is left by the failure, of these institutions. Is now filled by global leaders. With fascist, inclinations. Who are making, personal. Bargains. Over the destinies. Of their people. These leaders. Are toying, with the with these institutions. More easily. And more dangerously. Than we could ever imagine. Right-wing, populist, leaders, are rendering, these institutions. Ineffective. So that, the consensuses. Of humanity. Are removed. To create a vacuum. In which these leaders. Can operate. Relentlessly. As they desire. What is even worse, is that these democratic, institutions. Prove themselves, to be completely. Incompetent. When it comes to, defending, their principles. New political, organizations. Will also, arise, from. The developing. New political, organisms. That are taking place, that are emerging, from the streets, today. The protest, movements, around the world, are reaching, out and rising, up, it began in tahrir. And now it's it continues. With black lives, matter. Masses. Who are considered, to be, indifferent, to global, affairs, and politics. Are now. Withdrawing, their, consent, from. This current, representative. System. The scenes that have been emerging. From these demonstrations. Are of those. Of a system, that is at a breaking, point but there is no guarantee. In which direction, it will break. So our challenge today. Is to organize. These spontaneous. Spontaneous. Expressions. Of solidarity. Towards, an enduring. International. Movement. Democratic, institutions. Like un. Has to change. And this is only possible. If we push them, towards. Opening, up, to a more equal. And true, participation. That stands, upon, grassroots. Politics. Our third speaker, janis farufakis. Is an economist, academic, and politician.
As Greek finance, minister, in 2015. He led the struggle against the european, union, and global. Institutions. Every, major, challenge, humanity, faces. From climate, change and unbearable, inequality, to unpayable, debts and involuntary. Migration. Are. Global, problems, in need of international. Solutions. And this is our conundrum. Never before have we needed global governance, more. At the time when many see the united, nations as dysfunctional. Including, good people working, at the united nations. Clearly, we. And the governments. Claiming to represent, us, have a duty. We have a duty to reimagine, new international institutions. Capable of addressing, these multiple, challenges. The only time humanity. Created, global institutions, that made a significant. Difference, to people's everyday, lives. Was after a global catastrophe, in the 1940s. I hope, and trust, we do not need another catastrophe, for us to unite. Against the oligarchy, without frontiers. Raiding. And robbing, today's, youth, of their future. What kind of new institutions, do we need to tackle. Climate, change, and the crushing, inequalities. Within our countries, and also between the global north and the global south. Here are three, examples. An international, clearing, union. Modeled. On what john maynard keynes once proposed. For ending the global, imbalances. Feeding. Economic, crisis. A new organization. For emergency. Environmental, cooperation. Backed. By a successor, to the international, monetary fund. To administer, a green manhattan, project aiming, instead of mass murder. At preventing, humanity's, extinction. And thirdly. A new empowered. United, nations, assembly. Having. Effectively, moved away from the security, council. A new united nations assembly democratically. To oversee. The two aforementioned. New institutions. In short. The world needs a new common plan. And it needs new institutions, to implement it. Nothing less can deliver humanity. From unnecessary. Suffering. And climate change. All our speakers. We just heard, from janice, there, and before, him, eche. And, leima. Thank you for all of your insights and perspectives. Let's quickly. Recap, let's give, our viewers a summary of the three positions we just heard lema bowie, says we do not need, new global institutions. Let's simply reform, them. Says global institutions, have lost moral ground let's unite, and apply pressure from the outside. And finally as you just heard jani sarafakis. Says we need, new global. Institutions. And let's not shy away, from starting. Over. So you have heard the arguments we now want to hear from our voting panel, our virtual audience that is watching this debate, with us today will vote, on these, three statements. And here is how it works. It's time to vote, we need your input to find common ground among the speakers. We want to know exactly how much value you attach to the arguments you've heard. You have a total of 100, points to divide. You can divide them over one, two or all three statements. To do so simply assign, points to the statements, on a sliding, scale. All right and while our voting panel makes up its mind, you can join, the debate, by using the hashtag, dear world at doha debate send us your, questions, and comments. And let us know what you think. Should we attempt, to deconstruct. The existing, international, order at the risk of ending up without. Any credible substitute. Should we simply tweak, what we already have or should we turn the page and start, with a blank slate.
While You're sharing your thoughts let's go to nelufar. And see what reactions. We're seeing online, now what are the trends that are emerging, online. Thank you video those are very interesting, positions, that have been set out and a lot for my virtual, and online audience to consider, if we can have a look at our audience, right now, who are voting and casting their votes for the first time that will be great. Now we put uh these two questions. In a poll, for our social media, uh uh followers. And we asked two very distinct, questions to see what their take was and i'd love for our speakers to be able to comment, on us. We asked do you think that global institutions. Like the un world bank nato and imf. Do you think that they can take on the challenges, of today 35. Percent of you said yes and 65. Of you that voted on our social media platforms, said no. We then asked another question. We asked, how do you think global institutions. Like the united nations are handling the response, to the coronavirus. 22, percent of you said well. 78. Of you said poorly. And just to get into some of those comments, from our uh viewers who are watching online who are commenting. At doha debates. Ibrahimow. Tweeted, today to say the global institutions. Have failed. They failed to serve, solve any of the problems they were created to solve. However the little. Things that they are doing is better than nothing. We can't afford, to discard, them without. Providing, an alternative. So that is an interesting, perspective, what is going to happen in that interim, between, one system and another i wonder if we can get into that wayne, in the us, says global, cooperation. Is a good thing, and is already in place for many different issues. Still, sovereign nations will need to continue to govern themselves. Based on what is best, for their own citizens, this is interesting, cooperation. Cannot turn into centralization. I really like that perspective. And then madeleine, in italy says i see the value, in multilateral. Organizations. And global cooperation. And i've definitely, met the very competent, and knowledgeable, folk, who work in these institutions. So a mixed bag and i'm sure that my, uh online, audience will be contributing, much more as the debate goes on. Back to, you. Mixed bag a bit of a conundrum, as janice, mentioned, certainly a catch 22 for many of the, viewers weighing in, i believe we have the results of the vote, so do we need to keep our institutions. And simply, tweak them. Reform them or do we bury them all together and create new ones. So looking at the results of the votes there that you see on screen. There's a very. Little. Distance i think between the first and last, position, in terms of how they've resonated, with our audience. We don't need new global institutions, let's reform them instead that was layman's. Argument. 36.8. Percent, of the vote. Janis we need new global institutions, let's not shy away from starting over 39.6. And a somewhat distant. Third position for h.a. Who believes that global institutions, have lost moral ground, and it's all up to the grassroots. Movements, to apply the pressure. From, outside. So these are the results, as they stand at least for now. Will they change, once our speakers have elaborated, on their positions. And once you've also had a chance to ask a few questions, please do keep those coming. As we go into the next phase, of our, discussion. Welcome to the meslis. A traditional, arab consensus, building practice. Focus of the mesh list is to welcome critical, conversations. And reach solutions. Keto will encourage our speakers, to bridge differences, and find common. Ground. All right so let's see if we can find common ground let me go to you leima first you say we need to hold on to the existing, institutions. We just need to reform, them, but frankly for the past 50 years. Reform, has been a buzzword. In the u.n system including, the bretton woods institutions. And at best one might argue. Reform has been cosmetic.
Clearly, These organizations. Do not want to make any meaningful. Structural. Reform. So hearing you say that we need reform, yet we need to hold on to these organizations. Almost sounds like, someone wanting to make, omelets, but not. Wanting to break, the eggs. Shouldn't we consider, instead breaking up these institutions. And shaping new ones just as janice. Argues. No i i don't think so i refuse, to to to. To agree, with the point that we need new institutions, and let me just go back to janie's, point. Even though he talked about, new institutions. Emerging. But he still comes back to the same u.n, he still comes back to the general assembly, being broken, up i mean having, some kind, of, position. In his the new institutions, that should be established. In 1979. I believe muhammad, ali when he. Gave his talk at the u.n, general assembly one of the things that he put forth was that there was a need to deconstruct. All of the different things and start building the u.n from the foundation. Not to start a new u.n, and i want to stand on that to say that, when the u.n was established, the principles, and the values of which the u.n was established. Was firmly, grounded, in people. People. Over, time. Member states that have gotten so powerful, has taken, on, their own politics, different roles, and the u.n has become. So bureaucratic. And i feel, that the value, of the u.n still stands. We should still go into it we should still work with it because if we move outside, and inside, and i think h's, point of the civil society, being involved applying, pressure. Can be accommodated. But establishing. New institutions. Because, the u.n was established, for people, and who are the people the vast majority. Of the population. Outside, civil society. They should have a voice in the governing, structure of the u.n, so i buy into her idea, a bit, but to break it down, i refuse, to accept that because. As long as we continue. To focus, on, the politics, the policy, the resources. The money. Militarism. And take humanity. Out of whatever, we're doing. Any new institution. That is started. On those grounds that the world continues, to operate, from, we feel. Just as we're saying the u.n is failing, so reform, is not refusing, to break the egg, it's opening, up that egg, and taking the yolk and using it for what it's supposed to be used for, and taking the white and using it for what it's supposed to be used for, be careful when you use food analogy, for me. All right, so there you have it janice, we can make a perfectly, good uh, omelette without breaking. The eggs, uh. Lema believes i mean i know that you're a rebel a rebel with a with a cause you might argue, you have taken on the powerful, the imf. Powerful institutions, but let's face it in the end. Aren't, institutions. As good as the people who lead them. Even if you established, new organizations. As lima suggest, won't you run into the same old problem. Of, having people at the top who lead them who will promote the same failed policies, let's face it that's possibly why you will never be head of the european, commission, isn't the problem, less. About a systemic, problem than it is about the kinds of people who lead the organizations, and who may or may not be ready to take risks and frankly do the right thing. An error. I am not more of a rebel than les mis or edger. These are wonderful, women, that. Have been truly radical, in the way they have transformed. Their countries their communities. Public opinion. And allow me to say that. I really, cannot see, any difference, of substance, between. Our three positions. I agree entirely. Dama, that, the whole point is not to go back to ground zero. And rebuild from zero. This is not we're not paul pot right. Uh, what we want is to reform those institutions. And create new ones, to support, the reformed, existing ones, so of course i rely on the united, nations i want to see the end of the security, council, and i want to see and empower the democratic. United, nations assembly. Uh aj is absolutely. Spot on when she says that the international, institutions. The ones we're discussing. Lost all credibility, with iraq war and not just with iraq war, and that we need grassroots. Pressure. In order to have the reform. And rebuild. That we are discussing. So i know that these debates, become more fun when people vote between different positions, but. The good news is that our three positions. Are effectively, won. And i do refuse, to be part of this you know, fake, uh. Contest, between us, to answer your question directly. No i don't think that institutions, are as good, as the people who lead them. Institutions, can be systemically. Evil. They can be structured, in such a way, that they turn good people. That. Stuff them. Into. Impotent, persons. You know when i was from, struggling, against the international, monetary fund the european central bank the european commission. I was struggling against bad people. I was. You know most of them were decent people trying to do their best with institutions.
Whose. Uh structure, however. Was such that it was they were meant, to to serve the interest of an oligarchy. So we need to restructure, institutions. So as to. Restructure, the persons, and we need to restructure, the persons, in order to restructure, the. Institutions. All right. What do you think is it an issue of restructuring. Restructuring, the the leaders, the people, or. The governance. Systems, themselves. To what extent. Does, grassroots. Movements. Actually affect change. On an international, level they may at the regional. Local. Level certainly, at the national level but the constituents. Of these, global institutions. Aren't, people they're states, and governments, how do you affect change there. Well this is going to be a very easy, comfortable, mesh list because we all agree, at the, very bottom, of the, you know, topic. We are all three of us. People who believe that people, should be living a more dignified. Life uh, the you know the world should be more just and so on and so forth so. Youngest was right we are not in competition, here and what we have. Brought. Up, three of us, actually. Uh complete, each other so it's going to be a very, fun match lease. So to speak. Um. My, uh, first of all i didn't say civil society, i have a problem with that. Uh con. Concept, i said grassroots, move grassroots. Movement and i mentioned, political, organisms. That are still developing. Uh. On the streets, all over the globe uh during these demonstrations. What i see when i look at the world since, especially, since tahrir. Um. Is that people. Uh. You know. The the protests, movements, the resistance. Is organizing. In the same manner, and each time they are developing, themselves, uh. Towards, a, towards a, you know concrete, organization. We are not there yet but we are getting there. And. This, um, this manner, of, organizing. This manner, of spontaneous. Solidarity. I think is a, very important. Inspiration. For the. For the organizations. That we. Want to have. And i, i feel like un, and such democratic, institutions. Are like, sinking, ships, they have already, sunk, maybe. And what we have to do, actually. Like in occupy, movements. Occupy. These, sunken, ships, in order to turn them into. New organisms. In order to transform, them into reefs. Full of new life. We cannot get rid of un we cannot get rid of, you know the institutions. That the humankind. Achieved, so far. But what we can do. Is to, uh, spot the problem. That um. That corrupts, these institutions. And then, get rid of that problem, and that problem, in at the very heart of it, is, that. We are living in a contradictory. Uh. Crossroads. So to speak. The main contract, of capitalism. And the main. Fundamental, contract. Of democracy. Are contradictory. To each other, democracy. Says that, we are equal and we are going to be represented. Equal, whereas, capitalism. Said, say, well we are not that equal. So what happened, after the 1980s. In the world, all over the world and to all institutions. Is that, the world. Chose the contract, of capitalism. Over the contract, of democracy. That is why, including, un. All the. International. Institutions. Have been corrupting. Uh. Gradually. Uh it is not the people it's not the institution, itself, but what the, system of the world, is. Diminishing, democracy. To a. Theatrical. Act, representative. Democracy, is today. Is not really understood. As a, as a system where people are feeling represented, that's why they are going on streets, to show that so let me let me jump in and they are not agreeing okay. So sir, you put your finger on it even though you did call the u.n, democratic, institutions. Institution, many would argue that it it is far from that the theatrics, of the general assembly, where you've got every. State represented, 193. Of them, really, pales in comparison, to the real power that's, concentrated. In the hands of the five permanent members, of the security council, as we know but, let me take this point. To to leima. Leima who wants to, who still believes, in the un, has faith, in it, wants to somehow, push the united nations. To reform itself. To to gain equal representation. Let me say lima as you well know. Africa. Your continent, has been, shortchanged. For decades, granted the un has played a critical role in the whole decolonization. Process of the 60s, and 70s but economically. Africa is still lagging, behind. And you've got all these major powers. Still pulling the strings, i mean we know about the the blood diamonds in in the context, of the liberian, war but look at the drc.
The War there has been raging. Uh. For decades, now still goes on and you've got these. These, countries. Competing, economic, interests. Keeping, keeping, the conflict, alive. Well, let me go back to. To my point. I don't think it is. Necessarily. The institutions. That have caused all of these problems, and i agree with everyone. I think it is, really, our failure. As, people. To to to to see humanity. From the perspective. Of to see the world from the perspective, of humans, or from the perspective, of people. And being able to really, look, in depth. Um. Talks about, the. The protests, and all of the different movements. And i think these are very good pressure that people are putting, out, on governments, and institutions. I won't probably be out here, if i wasn't part of a popular, movement. Grassroots, movement, to end the liberian, civil, war, but one of the things that we're seeing, over, time, is how these protests, are now turning, into, the same. Monster, of institutions. Where, people protest, women protests, and then when the governments, are toppled. You don't see women anymore, and that same structure. Of, of leaving, one group of people behind. And running with another group of people comes into perspective. I think if our world, and i i can't continue, to say this even harder. Can look at. Humanity. From the way the world is supposed to operate. If our leaders especially. In africa, were really concerned, about the people, and not their huge swiss bank account in many instances. And, whining, and dining with western, leaders, and selling the resources, of the continent. I think we will be at a better place, the u.n is as strong as its member state. If we have member states that are corrupt, if we have powerful, nations, that have no interest, in other nations. Regardless. Of which, kind, of entity, we bring to bear again. We will still find ourselves. At the same place you cannot. Have a world where leaders, are self-seeking. And calling other nations, as whole nations. And all kinds of different things and expect that. How do you change the world if you establish, a new system. Without, say powerful, countries, like the us. France. Breaking. All of these different things they will still infiltrate, these institutions. And it would all be about. Their position. Their, interests. Resources. And all of the different things, humanity. At the core of all of this. So you mentioned collective, humanity and i want to put this point, quickly to janice before bringing in our connector, who's as she says, whose job is already, uh pretty much done but but janice to this point of, putting, collective, humanity. At the center. Of things at a time of a global, crisis, a pandemic, that has already affected, 30 million people around the world, and counting. Oxfam. Sounded the alarm bell by saying that a small. Group of rich. Nations. That represents, barely, 13 percent of the global population, has already. Bought up and reserved. More than 50 percent. Of the vaccine, supply, and yet, you do not hear a word, of criticism. From the president of the world bank or the secretary general of the united nations unwilling to call this papers paid, so back to the point that we made earlier, isn't it really also about. Individual. Political, leadership. Leaders who are willing. To call things. As they see them and to stand, up to the powerful, and the rich. Very much so uh, you do need people to take personal, responsibility.
For What happens, and call is paid in spade, even if it means losing their job because those who appointed, them didn't put them there to speak for humanity, they put them there to speak, for them for the vested interests. But look. Speaking again about institutions. Look at the pandemic. You know the need for the proper, public, health, system. Around the world in the united states as well. Look at climate change. That it's my estimation, that we need, at least 10 trillion, dollars. 10 trillion dollars to be spent every year. On, climate change mitigating, climate, change and. Public health, globally. That's not a huge amount of money if you think that about 100 and 110, billion trillion, is the total income. Now we need to talk about how this is going to happen the united nations does not does not have the means to do this, uh, even if mr gutierrez, made a wonderful speech he just doesn't have the means it's the imf. And the world bank that were created. In berlin woods, in order to play that role but, since the end of bretton woods in 1971. These became, institutions. Acting on behalf, of the large finances, of the west, as bailiffs. For calling in, the loans of the third world africa in particular if you remember the special adjustment programs in the 1970s. So this is why we need a combination, of personal, responsibility. And new institutions. With the capacity. To shift resources. From the, idle, rich, financial, institutions, that are swimming, in huge quantities of money, that are doing. Nothing, productive, even in the west. Shift these resources, to public health, mitigating, climate change creating good quality, jobs public education. All right not a huge amount of disagreement, between the three of you but still worth bringing in, our connector. Dr govinda, clayton, is a senior researcher, in peace processes, within the center for security, studies at eth. Zurich, dr clayton's research interests, include negotiation. Mediation. Conflict, management, and civil war. As our connector, dr clayton will provide guidance, on identifying, common ground and steering towards bridge building, and consensus. Kevin you've had tough ones before this one looks like a walk in the park doesn't it. And thanks a lot gida and thanks to all the speakers i've really enjoyed the discussion, so far. Um but i think most of the consensus, that we've heard up to this point has been, really focused, on the broad, understanding. That things have to change. So nobody is suggesting, that, the system that we have now is is functioning in the way in which we'd like it to and that the status quo is is acceptable.
In Any ways. But equally we've seen the consensus. Around, the. Around the fact that we shouldn't be ripping up the existing international, order and we have to look for different ways in which we can build around that. But what i'd really like to see as we move deeper into the match list, is a bit more focus, and potentially. Points of consensus. Around what the new or the next iteration, of international. Order might look like. So here i'd love to hear the speakers, more clearly, articulating. What is their vision, or their goals. In terms of the future, of international, order. In particular for some of the younger viewers that are watching today it would be great to hear like what's their vision that might inspire, other people to support the kinds of reforms that you're talking about. I think this other type of consensus. Could be really powerful for everyone watching at home. Thank you, all right govinda, thank you, as always, for these words of wisdom let's uh, let's head straight then to to leima. Uh leima, you know in terms of inspiring, the younger generation. As a nobel, peace. Laureate, yourself, as an organizer, of a women's peace movement in liberia, that's been credited. With ending the civil war there, when you say these organizations. Should be reformed, i mean would the best reform and possibly even, the only, needed reform be that women. Lead these organizations. Well that would be my first take um we remember, when um, banky, moon was leaving the u.n, we had put on, such as um cso. And grassroots, organization, there was such a movement. For bringing in the first female, secretary, general, at the u.n. Unfortunately. For us. We didn't get that so, i would think that in this moment. When we're looking for reform. Beyond. Having, a woman, as the head of the u.n. The un has a lot of policies, around gender equality. And all of the different things my key interests, most times, or primarily, is the peace and security, processes. We still have yet to see women, leading, peace mediations. In different, parts of the world. A lot of the mediation, processes. Are primarily. Male dominated. And we already, know from statistics. That. Negotiations. And mediations, that have a lot of women, input. Tend to last longer than the ones with all men, the u.n.
Had A security, council resolution, one three two five, calling, for the participation. Of women, the protection, of women in conflict, situation. Conflict context. I still we still have yet to see the un, um prioritizing. So as part of that reform. Titan, 25, should be front and center. Of every peace process, every peace negotiation. Every. Peacekeeping, mission, it should be not just in words, but in action, followed by the resources. One of the key reform, that i think needs to happen in the u.n. Is the security, council. Gone are the days where africa, had countries. That were in colonial, rule so the u.s could say we have, britain could say we have countries, under our rule, it's over, now, africa, is proving, that we, can do we are doing better, regardless. Of some of the areas where we have our leaders who, don't know where they want to take their individual, countries. But i think it's time for us to shift. The way the security, council. Is is conducted, there should not be, five permanent, members, it's time for us, to have a membership. Kind of thing that is rotational. No u.s, no russia, no china. No, no five feminine, members. Every, nation, is equal. Under, god. One nation. One vote another, in other words janice very quickly before we get, to a uh, a member of the audience who's ready to ask a question i wonder what you, uh say to the idea of women. Being. Better piece builders, and and. Making, uh, better, negotiators. At the end of the day and and having more women, lead these organizations. And to the point of, whether or not, these institutions. Uh and regional, groupings, are, democratic. Enough i know that you have launched, a progressive, pan-european. Party to, democratize. The eu before it disintegrates. But quite frankly looking at the u.n the eu seems, pretty democratic, in the fact that you. You don't have any state, with a with a veto, they're all equal, of course, with a caveat that some are more equal than others your thoughts. Well the world would be a far better place if women were in, in government, rather than us, members of the defective, sex there's no doubt about that. Uh having said that. Um. I don't think it's just. It's not as easy as that or as simple as that, um i negotiated. With um. The head of the international, monetary fund who, was um. Very pleasant, very clever very smart woman, christian lagarde. The chancellor, of germany at the time, was um. And another. You know stupendous, woman, angela merkel. And he had those institutions. And those governments, continued. To. Impose. Not so much because of the, pre-election, of those women or the people in power. But because of their systemic. Tendencies, to impose. Misanthropic, policies on, on our people. I'm. Very pleased to say that our pan-european, movement here in greece in the greek parliament.
With More women members of parliament, than, than men. But it is important. To ask the question, okay let's say we replace all the men with women. How do we how do those women deal with the fact that they don't have the levers. The levers by which to control. Finance. You know there's 750. Trillion. Trillion 750. Trillion. Dollars, worth of derivatives. And, you know fictitious, capital. Doing the rounds, in the world markets. A tiny, amount of that, would be fantastic. If it was diverted, towards. You know creating, good quality jobs, public education, public health, mitigating, climate change, and yet delivers are not there for doing it, none of our institutions, can do that the imf, doesn't have that what the imf does exactly the opposite, it takes from the poor, gives to the rich. So. For women, in power, or in government, to be able to bring power. In order to empower, the things that humanity, needs. We need the new institutions. And the systemic, change that, i've been speaking about okay. All right thank you janice let's go to. One of our audience members. A student i believe who's ready to ask a question please introduce yourself. And, go ahead. Yeah my name is augustine, i'm calling from the, from the us. My question, goes to. Lima. I would also like, janis to to weigh in. One could argue, that. The dysfunctionality. Of the league of nations. Paved the way for the first world war. How could we ensure, that the deterioration. Of the un. Uh doesn't, pave way for. The same outcome given, the current happenings. All right lima to you first briefly. Technically, it's already, at war. I'm sorry to see i mean the virus. Has, taken, us in a way that we've never seen before. But. Right now, where we find ourselves, the question, is. How long is it going to take us. Really and truly to realize. That. It's not just the institutions. That would establish. Peace in the world, as we want to see it. It is all of the nations, of the world, and if these nations of the world are hell-bent. On doing things the way they've always done it before we find ourselves. In the same situation. Over and over. Recently. We in a conversation, with a group of people. We had the same argument, about the un. And the u.n, is as strong as its member states, and if the member states decide, that they are going to conduct, business the way it is being done, our world will continue, to find itself, in the way in the place that it finds itself, so i don't think, necessarily. The u.n, acid, is as is functioning, we're all saying that there's a serious, problem. It's going to lead to. Any more problem than we're already seeing in our world. What we need to do now is to determine. How we want to move forward, on this, i don't know if i answer your question. Oh yes. I know that um. Augustine, wanted you to weigh in as well, so we've been talking about the slow death of the u.n for a long time, and where it might lead, briefly, what are your thoughts. Well, think about in 1999. The west bombed yugoslavia. A european, country they didn't even ask the united nations for permission, to do this, then you had the gulf war the second gulf war that edger, referred to, again the united nations was sidelined.
Uh So i very much fear, that, yes exactly like the league of nations the united nations become toothless. And the great, powers will do whatever they, think they, is in their interests. So to answer your question directly. It is we europeans. That have. A moral duty. To stop european, nations, from conducting, war like they are in libya today. It is for american, progressives. To bind together, to stop american, government. From persecuting, war. It is for the chinese citizens for the russian citizens, the citizens. And residents, of the countries. With the power to wage war. We must, act, in order to prevent that and in order. To re-empower, the united nations. And to create the new institutions, that need to go along with the united, nations. In order to create global peace, and, shared prosperity, across the world. All right let's go for another question, from the audience i believe we have another student. Standing by. Go ahead with your question. Hello i'm natasha. And i'm tuning in from doha. My question, is for yanis. How do we solve a problem like climate, change given that our social, economic. And political, systems. Seemed designed, to resist, it. You mentioned it briefly but could you go more in detail, about what those, alternative, systems, could look like. Thank you. Janice. To you as a politician, and an economist, the nexus between big corporation, fossil fuel industries, and governments. What does the future look like there. Well the large corporations, already know what needs to be done even british petroleum. Has just recently announced that it's moving away from fossil fuels. Uh the question is, who determines. The, the pace of change in the direction of change and the distribution, of the green technologies. And the of the good quality jobs that will create. Come from that, we are going we know we're going to rely on hydrogen, we know that we will deny, rely on renewables. We need to very quickly move away from extraction, from fossil fuels. Uh the. Possibility. There. For massive public investment, that will crowd in private investments. Even entrepreneurial. Companies, that want to be part of this new, green revolution. It's all there, but somebody needs to fund it and, somebody. Needs, to, coordinate, all this this is why i suggested, during my introductory, speech, a new organization. For emergency, environmental, cooperation. To be backed by, a successor, to the international, monetary, fund this is not the time to, be technical, about it but it is perfectly, possible even without, taxing. The west. To create, public, financial, instruments, that shift, a huge amount of wealth. From the global, north to the global south in a manner. Which, funds the green transition, that the planet needs while at the same time. Creating the good quality jobs from which, poor people are going to be elevated, from poverty. All right and we have a question here uh, from our online, audience, brandon. In the united, states this is a question for eche. How do we organize. All of these grassroots. Groups at the end of the day one might argue it is only indigenous, forces, that can bring about peace. And social and economic development, how do you organize. These, movements. They are already, linked to each other they know about each other they even make the same jokes. From, you know egypt, to. Minneapolis. So they are linked they are connected. To each other. Through social media and so on. What i propose, is the international. Alliance, of these movements. From black lives matter to hong kong, from egypt from beirut, to, i don't know iceland. So. We need this. Not only because. To to save the u.n, or anything. But we need this for the. Future, of the humanity, because. Uh, young people are watching us today, mostly young people, and i know that, i know that, this generation, the new generation, as far as i can see, is. Quite cynicist. And nihilist, and i totally, understand that because, they found a you know crumbling, planet, on their lap, and they don't trust in institutions. I mean i wonder how many people know the, you know had a name of the, head of un, today without, googling, it, when we were growing up we knew it because u.n, then mattered.
But Now it does not really matter and everybody, actually. Pretty much knows that um does not. Do anything, he they just sit there like a, paralyzed. Giant. When, you know, bombs are flying, over. So, what we need, is to assemble. These. Movements, all around the globe. To. Open and to make them occupy. These, places, where big decisions. Are made, like un, like imf, or like world bank. And. Not only from outside, maybe, maybe. Through infiltrating. To these institutions. And changing, them and we have to. Find, we have to redefine. Power. In a way that does it doesn't, uh corrupt, so, easily, as easily as it is today as layman, said, and what is happening today on the streets. I think is people are looking. For that kind of power. How, to come together how to organize. So that. The institutions. That they are going to create. Would not corrupt, as easily, as, today's, institutions. Interesting actually you bring up the issue of the credibility, gap. Of the u.n many would argue it hasn't just started in the last few years but in fact. Dates back to. Two or three. Decades. Ago and the fact that the security council at the end of the day, doesn't have. Authority, really over its member states, if they do decide to violate. Any resolution, and, go to war, or anything, of of the sword but let's head, to our. Audience. One more time and with a final, a question from one of our audience members who's ready to, to ask the question, there you go go ahead please. Hi i'm fiona, coming from seoul south korea. And my question goes out to all the speakers. So despite, how all the speakers. Stress the importance, of global, governance, and reform during this time. Critics of globalization. Would argue that, the pandemic, is actually the perfect, opportunity. For states to remove, themselves. From global institutions. Altogether. And focus more on domestic, policies, and affairs. What's your take on this perspective. Who is this question for fiona. Um it's open to anyone speakers. Right any takers, uh leima, perhaps to, you. Well. I i, first just want to rush back to um something you said. About the un. Being an institution. Feeling. For some time. I want to ask. A hypothetical. Question to anyone. 20 30 years ago when the u.n was still. Functional. In the eyes of the world. What. Was that thing that made it a functional. Functional, institution. The answer would be that we had leaders, around the globe. Who were interested. In humanity. Who were interested, in peace, and security.
Who Was interested, in the global, community. And how, interrelated. They were, today, we find ourselves, in a world where, we have leaders, who are only interested. In. As powerful, as they can get and to answer your question fiona. I don't i think what the virus, has done for all of us, is to see, our nations, become. Individual. In their way of thinking. Every country went on lockdown. Every country, went on shutting down their borders. Every country, went on it's all about, me, and my people or me and my politics, and what are we seeing, that there are still calls, now for them to come back, to the global, world so i don't think. Removing, themselves, from globalization. And focusing, on, their individual, countries, is going to do any of us any good, we say we all live in a global, village, one sneeze, in africa. Can impact someone, in europe or asia, so i don't want to believe that removing, themselves. Is going to make our world any better than it is right now. So before we head to a second. Round, of voting, thank you fiona for that question, janice let me ask you briefly about. The bretton woods institutions. Sure many, people if not everyone would agree that they are indeed anachronistic. Certainly after the main tenet. Of the system was dropped but still the primacy, of the u.s dollar as we see it as a principal. Currency, of international, trade and finance, is it up to, other nations. China, russia. And the other emerging. Powers, to challenge. This. The fundamental, problem. Is it, the fact as you see that the world has embraced this neo-liberal. Economic, system. With its various flavors. Is this part of the problem that we face today. Well, china can do nothing about. The exorbitant, privilege of the dollar because, china. Relies, to very large extent, on that privilege, to remember. That the the chinese government, has entrusted. A huge. Savings, of the chinese people. In american, debt in, the american dollar so. You know there is a symbiosis. Between, the chinese economy, and the american economy, american, capitalism, and chinese capitalism. Uh. Despite. The. Clash. That you can see. Evolve. Especially, coming from the united states side. So. No i don't believe that that that any particular, country russia china, or europe. Can do anything about the exhibit and privilege of the dollar. What we need to do and i'm coming to the second part of your question. Is, especially, those of us progressives, in the united, states, in europe. We have to work. Towards. Uh, reframing. The international, institutions. Which. In the end are not even conducive. To the interest of the majority, of the americans. The majority, of the europeans. It is the minority. Of americans. And the minority, of europeans, and some minority. Perhaps in china even in russia. Who benefit from the exorbitant, power of the pro. Of the, of the dollar. So, you know this is not a clash between america and china it is not a clash, between russia and america. Here is a clash between, an oligarchy, without frontiers, which benefits, from the current system at the expense, of the wealth community. And if i can. Add, a quick answer to fiona. Uh, who asked the pertinent, question and a great question. I fear that covet 19. Has massively, boosted, nationalism. And has allowed. Those who benefit, from the present, world order, against the interests of the many. To bolster, their opposition. At the expense. Of humanity. Uh in but in a manner that serves their private interests. All right thank you janice, uh we'll get your thoughts as well on this ed shea but, let's uh do a second round of voting now and see if our discussion has changed the minds of our voting panel, in any way, before we do so though let me quickly remind.
Every One of the three positions, we heard, earlier today layma bowie says we do not need new global institutions. Let's simply reform, them. H.a. Believes that global institutions, have lost moral ground let's unite and apply pressure from the outside and janis. Says we need, new global, institutions. Let's not shy away from starting over, so after listening to our guests as our voting panels thinking, shifted, yet again, you can all join this debate by using the hashtag. Dear world at doha debates, let us know what you think and let's go back to to neliphar, once again to see what's going on, out there in cyberspace, now far. Thank you, yes people are very much, uh. Enjoying. And and celebrating, but also. Taking to task a lot of what our speakers are saying in their very, passionate, possession. Positions. Um i want to thank our viewers in berlin, florida, islamabad, pakistan. Argentina. Ireland, new york malawi, philippines, bangladesh, somalia, and so many more places. From joining on all our many platforms. Now, you ask me what everyone online is saying and i'll tell you, um in oakland california, emma says i am personally, interested, in alternate ways of mutual aid and support, in grassroots, communities. We can't expect the un or the world bank to solve everything. Without any cooperation. A lot of what echa was saying, kind of being drawn on there, uh someone, else has commented to say it's time for a new dawn, out with global corruption. Corrupt institutions. Global cooperation. Is not found in vip, places. Where racism, is perpetuated. And all, and old, boys, club, systems, exist to divide. So this idea of people being torn. Between wanting to fix, the institutions, that we have, but to, burn things and start anew. Is very much still a debate that's being had online. And a debate that we can go on. With for another hour or two but uh, time is, indeed running out and i do know that we have. The second. Round of voting the results, there we can actually put them up and compare them to the original. Results. At the end of at the beginning, of this debate so what we had, originally, was this uh janis's. Position, was the one that garnered almost 40 percent of the vote and then lemurs. Almost 37, percent. And h.a 23. With the fact that global institutions. Have lost moral ground everyone sort of agrees on this, she believes it is up to. Pressure from the outside, to make a difference now the current vote. Reveals. Somewhat of a different dynamic. Layma's. Perspective, has moved up, in terms of. The resonance, it's, had with our audience. Our voting panel we do not need new global institutions, let's simply reform them. Over 40 percent, of the vote, there. Janis, on the other hand, let's not shy away let's simply. You know, break down and rebuild the institutions. Has gone from 39. Of the world to 29, percent. And, aha's, perspective, has also moved up. There. In the ranking. So this is, where we're at we've got just a couple of minutes left let me ask each of you about, concrete, steps you would suggest, our, young, audience. Take up and what you make of these results so to you first layma, are you surprised first off by the results what do they tell you about what young people want what they need, and what would you advise, the upcoming, generations, what concrete, steps.
Would You say they should take. I think one of the the reasons, why we see our world in the crisis that we find ourselves, is that, a lot of our political, institutions. Today. At a place where. Our young people are voting. Towards. Celebrity, the celebrity. Culture. Um, i think it's time for our young people as they're interested, in social media and all of the different things, to really get interested, in the political, life of their different nations. Study those who are going to parliament, study those who wants to be president, and different things in their countries. To ensure that as they take on this leadership. It would not be people who would just be interested. In their nations. While sovereignty. Is important. But interconnectedness. Is also important. Court, or key to all of that, is someone, or individuals. Who have, the heart, of our collective, humanity. The south africans, will say um. In my own native language you say. Meaning we are all one, and there is no way that we can do a world. Do a new world, order. In the way that we're doing it now, without, putting, people at the center in the heart of it and young people need to really, understand, that they are the next generation. Taking on the power of our life of our world. Means that we're interested, in people, if you're interested, in people you're interested, in peace if you're interested, in people, you are interested, in climate, change if you're interested, in people, you're interested, in education. Justice, and health care. Thank you very much lima. To you at shea what you say to the millions of people who out on the streets protesting, for climate action for racial justice. Uh those young people who are disillusioned. And want, to take things into their own hands what is your advice, to them. To those who feel that they cannot, influence what is happening, on a global level what steps can they take to make their voices heard, first. Here's to them. I am proud of them because they are already aware, that we are on our own. Our democracies. Are hijacked, by right-wing populists. And they are working together. Although they seem. Like fighting with each other uh, because of, nationalistic. You know they are stirring this nationalistic. Uh, feelings, and so on. We are on our own, uh. And we have to. Uh we can build a better world, right now with starting right now, but what we need. Is, uh, to refresh. Our faith, in humankind. And in ourselves. Because we lost it and, you know our, hope, and our, faith in humankind. Have been. Corrupted, by. You know. By everything, that happened in the last decade. So. Our, my. Advice, or. I would tell, all these people, especially, the young people. That we can do this together. What we need, is to. Go around this sunken ship. And. Occupy, it to transform, it, into a, living, alive. Reef, once again. Thank you yanis what would you tell your students, today what would you tell, students around the world who are yearning. For change for social. Justice. Like edgar i will also, congratulate. Uh, youngsters, around the world for their friday so future, for their. Um you know, climate. Strikes. For. Protesting. You know the, black, lives, matter. But we need to go beyond protest. Because we've seen, many waves of protests. Over the last 30 years or so the, era of neoliberalism. Or financialization. As, my economist. Mind thinks of it. We've seen those waves come and go. And fizzle out. You've got to be able to answer, you know the stronger you are as a movement. The more pertinent. The question becomes. When a journalist, like your good self, you know puts a microphone, in your into their face and says okay. So what do you want. You know what should we do. You we know what you don't want. How are we going to mobilize, 10 trillion dollars. For the purposes, that you want like climate change good quality jobs social justice and so on you've got to have an answer.
And This answer includes institutions. So there's no, doubt that we have to use the existing institutions. And reform, them. In or
2020-09-27