FinallyFriday Episode# 9: Same Questions, Different Places

FinallyFriday Episode# 9: Same Questions, Different Places

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Hello and welcome to #FinallyFriday.  This chat session is run by EXARC,   the society for archaeological open-air museums,  experimental archaeology, ancient technology,   and interpretation. My name is Matilda Siebrecht  and today I am joined by two specialists from our   EXARC community, focusing on international  approaches to experimental archaeology. 

Professor Shanti Papou is a specialist in  prehistory and interfaces with paleo-environments,   ethno-archaeology, and public archaeology based  in Chennai, India. She, along with Dr. Kumar Akhilesh,    runs the Sharma Centre for Heritage Education, which conducts research in Indian   archaeology and communicates the same through  outreach in the form of experimental archaeology,   including workshops and courses for university  students, schoolchildren and local communities.   Dr. João Carlos Moreno de Sousa is a  specialist in lithic technology based   in the Laboratory for Human Evolutionary Studies  at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, focussing   predominantly on using experimental archaeology  to investigate technologies from Paleo-American   and Paleo-Indian cultures. He is the founder of  Arqueologia e Pré-História, which is a collection   of online resources, aiming to communicate  archaeological research and information,   and especially to promote the local archaeology  and Palaeontology of Brazil to non-specialists   and academics alike. So welcome to both of you.  So I have a quick question to start you off.   How did you both become introduced to experimental  archaeology? Shanti, perhaps you could start. 

SP: So thank you very much for having me here.  And I'm really excited to talk to everyone   and to participate in this program. Well, it's  quite an interesting story. When we first began   our research way back in ‘99 and Akhilesh and I  started excavating sites and investigating them,   we realized right from the beginning that there  were two things lacking in the Indian context.  

Most of our data in prehistory comes in  the form of stone tools. We have very few   fossils or anything else and making  and using stone tools, as you know,   in India is not any more living tradition. So we really felt that there was a need to know,   and to learn how these tools were actually made.  So way back, I attended a workshop in France   organized by professors Texier and Pelegrin which  was absolutely amazing, except that I was rotten knapper.

I just couldn't make tools. And then  years later, Akhilesh went to the same workshop   and he turned out to be absolutely brilliant. So from there, when he came back to India,   he started experimenting with our local raw  materials and then he never stopped. And it  

became a key aspect of our research to interpret  the Palaeolithic sites that we are working on   to sort of understand the technologies at these  sites and this project is still continuing.  And the second thing, which we realized that in India, because we have such wonderful monuments   and other aspects of heritage, there was not  really a great awareness about prehistory at all.   So when we, in ‘99, we began a tiny  little children's museum in a school here,   and then from then on, we have been growing  and developing and we felt that experimental   archaeology should be key in any public outreach  workshop for children, teachers, or anyone.  So we started teaching children,  Akhilesh especially, how to knap flakes,   use the flakes to scrape food or do something, get  a feel of lithic technology. And then we moved on   to pottery and making bricks and rock art modules  and so many... lost wax, so many traditional crafts   which are also part of our archaeological record. So, this is what we did. And then we moved on to  

teaching university students in courses. So  from there we've been running these courses   in our centre in Chennai and also traveling in  India, across the country and to other countries,   to Sri Lanka as well. So that's our story. So it's a combination of experimental archaeology   for research to address research questions and for  public outreach, sort of weaving it all together   into interfaces and networks which go together. MS: Did you have a similar experience, João,   in that you kind of went elsewhere... because  I understand you were also a flint knapper,   so that you went elsewhere to learn the sort  of techniques or did you know about it before?  JM: First of all, thank you for inviting me. It's an honour to be here and to be  

part of EXARC. My first experience actually was  during my undergrad somewhere between 2009, 2010.   I can’t remember exactly. There was this optional  course on experimental archaeology. It was not   a usual course. So the program, the professor  didn't even have experience in the approach,  

was more like an excuse for her and the students to have first experience on knapping,   cutting flakes and using pottery. It was great to  have this first experience, even though it was not   systematic at all, because many students start to  look to the materials with new eyes after that.   Through this, I got even more interested  on lithics and we kept trying to make stone   tools by self-teaching until we met Professor  Bruce Bradley from the University of Exeter   in 2016, it was, this was during my PhD.   I participated as a student in the course on   Method and techniques of flint knapping, that was  carried out in Brazil by him. And after that,   I got a scholarship for a part of my PhD  in the University of Exeter with him.  

And there's where I finally got really involved  with experimental archaeology and learned how to   really do cool stuff with lithics, complex stuff.  And being on this track since then. And now I'm   teaching a little bit of flint knapping to  students here in Brazil, even as a professor   on this courses of methods and techniques. MS: So it sounds like for both of you at least,   the whole concept of experimental archaeology was  something that you introduced to your universities   or your regions, would you say that's true? SP: Not for me, not in India. People had been   knapping before us as well. There are many people  who were doing that, but in our own Institute,  

yes, we founded the Centre and we  have brought experimental archaeology   in as a major element here. Actually, it's quite interesting  that the first experimental studies were done way   back in the 1960s and even earlier, in the  colonial period also, people experimented in   lithic knapping a bit. In India, there are many  people who do knap, but in our case, we took it   on as a major project, for our own research, as  well as for teaching, especially for children,   for university graduates and others. So that's  become now a major part of our Institute.  JM: In Brazil, we did have some past works on experimental archaeology,   including flint knapping. But it was like what  we used to call ‘first time experimenters’,   actually ‘one time experimenters’, people  would make something in flint knapping,   but never worked on that before. So this is not  experimental archaeology, not an established part   of archaeological research, in Brazil yet.   The laboratory that I worked for, the Laboratory  

for Human Evolutionary Studies is one of the  few in Brazil and in South America in general,   that have been applying the experimental approach.  And it is actually very recent since 2018.  There was some of these experimental  research since the seventies, but it's like,   there are very few people have done, but no  researchers that are actually specialized on   the subject. Currently we only have two other  institutions in Brazil doing experiments,   which is, the Federal University of Minas Gerais  that have some researchers, although they’re not   yet specialists. They're starting to do some  stuff on both lithics and pottery and with   the Federal University of Santa Maria in  Southern Brazil, with people there working   just in pottery. But in general, all these  researchers, including most of us in our   Laboratory, are still beginners. No Brazilian  archaeologist has ever been in an experimental  

archaeological centre before. Even myself, I just  did part of my PhD research on the team. And now   our idea in our Laboratory is to get more involved  with researchers and institutions abroad that have   been working with experimental archaeology and  develop it as a research line in our institution.  SP: I think the story in India is quite similar  in the sense that people have been experimenting,   but very sporadic and not as a major activity as such. So that's, I think in many ways,  

similar to what he was talking about. MS: And do you find, because you mentioned   already, especially Shanti, there are still a  lot of other more traditional crafting techniques   that are still kind of a part of everyday life  for a lot of communities, a lot of people.   Is there much collaboration between, for example,  kind of academic experimental archaeologists   doing research into that topic and local  craftspeople or regional craftspeople who have   more experience in those techniques, maybe not  knapping necessarily, but other technologies?  SP: Yes, absolutely. Whether you talk of  pottery or bead making or bangle, craft, textiles,   glass, shell craft, sculpture, lost wax method  and so many other traditions, even making grinding  stones, you know, traditional millers and other  grinding stones. These are all living traditions.  

In fact, we have a grinding stone in our house  and we use pottery and these are very much in use.   So there have been a lot of studies done by  archaeologists, both Indian and foreign.    We've done some great work interacting with traditional  craftspeople. So this fantastic legacy has been   drawn in both in experimental archaeology and  of course with experimental archaeology to   investigate questions related to the past. As regards stone tool manufacture, this is very sporadic  

and it's only confined to experimental studies  by trained flint knappers and archaeologists   working together in India and abroad as well. So, that's the thing about India,   we have this great living tradition, which is a huge  potential to study for experimental archaeology.  MS: Is it similar in Brazil or...? JM: It's similar in the point of view of the lithics there's nothing traditional for knapping  or something like that. But if we talk about   pottery there are many indigenous groups still  making pottery and traditional people doing   many types of pottery and there are academics  that are learning with them. But if we talk  

outside of indigenous people, people who [...]  craft things, no, there's no collaboration at all. In Brazil, few craftspeople actually  have any interest in archaeological themes.   Most of the craftspeople in Brazil are  white men, followers of military ideals and   survivor on the wild, like those shows on tv.  There was one time my girlfriend and I   were both invited for a festival in bushcraft to talk about her work in experimental archaeology,   but it was not a really good experience,  especially for her, a woman in an openly sexist   environment. So it's really, really hard to get  this collaboration with these guys; many of these   craftsmen carry out and disseminate very wrong ideas of  what are native American traditional technologies.  

But the few ones that are really interested to  learn have been in contact with us. And one of   them is a biologist that is now considering a  master degree with experimental archaeology.   So that's, that's a good thing. MS: Fantastic. So there's   potential for the future. SP: I just agree with what  

he says and I think there's huge scope. And in fact, we do have traditional craftspeople   come into our Institute for it, especially  related to pottery, to teach children or to   have demonstrations. So there's a huge scope  for the research and studies as well.  MS: I actually am curious because I mean,  Shanti, you said you've been doing this since   sort of 1999, I think you said. And João you said  that it's been relatively recent for you guys,  

more since sort of 2018. What kind of advice would  you both give to someone who, for example, might   also be living in a country that is not so focussed  on experimental archaeology or who have different   focuses for their archaeological research, but  who wants to start their own kind of research   or their own community project in this topic? SP: Yeah, actually there's a huge potential.   It's a great thing to do because we firmly  believe that you, at least for prehistory,   you cannot understand lithics just from theory  or just by measuring or analyzing the tools,   you have to experiment. You have to knap. You have  to have structured programmes to understand this.   So I guess it's essential whether it's lithics  or pottery or whatever you're talking about,   as regards the past. So I think in countries  like India, it should be a part of the mainstream   syllabus in a very practical way, not merely  on only theory but it should be a proper course   introduced into most universities to work with  as a beginning. And if any new groups want to  

come up, that would be fantastic. And I think  we've had very good experiences and I think   it is a must, it is the future to do this.  And without that, you are stuck at some level.  JM: Yeah, I totally agree on having an  experience of producing the artifacts   that you're studying and replicating them because  you have a new point of view on everything that   you're doing. When you look at something, just  look for example to an arrowhead made on stone.   You see the negatives of the flint knapping and  everything, but you will just understand that   completely if you try to make one yourself.  For people that live in countries like ours,  

where we don't have these institutions that are  focussing on experimental archaeology, like Brazil,   I can say that: please contact researchers that are working  in the subject to have some orientation.   I'm sure it's true that you can ask for supervision  and to spend some time abroad learning.   That's exactly what I did and other close colleagues in  Brazil are doing now. Of course, self-teaching   is always an option. Anyone considering working  with experimental archaeology will do have to do  

some self-teaching at some point, since we cannot  always depend on someone to teach us everything   in practice, what you're practicing. MS: Yes, I think that's a good point,   learning from other people, but also not being  afraid to try things yourself, I suppose.  SP: Absolutely. You have to work with the  materials you have in hand and at a certain point   it's a lot of self-learning also. Akhilesh has  been experimenting with different raw materials  

and different questions in his mind and what he  said was absolutely right for us as well in India.  MS: I'm curious as well, because I mean, obviously  at the moment with the whole international   pandemic going on, there is less travel. And  you both mentioned that both of you have kind   of travelled to learn the different techniques  more specifically, and also then enhance these   techniques at home. But you also do both focus  very much on your local prehistory of course,   because of where you're based. And do you think  that archaeology now is often considered a very   international discipline? For example, for me, I  am Scottish based in the Netherlands and studying   material from the Canadian Arctic. It's quite easy  to go sort of all over the place and to focus on   a region that's not necessarily your local one  or where you're based. But do you think that  

sort of focusing more on local prehistory,  do you think this is something that should be   prioritized? Or why do you think that  local focus is such an important part of   archaeology, but also experimental archaeology? JM: I think, yeah, we should prioritize   local focus. It is a shame that when we talk  about prehistory most of what the public has   access to is about European prehistory, I don't  know about India, but that's the case in Brazil.   Most of the commentaries, podcasts, [...] similar other types of media do not talk about other   places except Europe. The good news is that  it is time to change in this decade.

Until recently, if you’re going back to the books on  prehistory and human evolution, when we get to   talk about homo sapiens, they're only things  written on the European Upper Palaeolithic,   although modern humans were in every continent by  40,000 years ago, including Brazil. When I was in   my undergrad I only learned about the history of  Brazil and the Americas and Europe. I never heard   about the prehistory of India for example, until I  was finishing my masters, when a foreign professor   offered the first history of Asian continent, and  I really doubt that students from other continents   learn about the archaeological culture of Brazil,  that we are studying here now. Even though there   are many publications on the [thing] in English,  even the Brazilian public does not know much of   the native history of Brazil, because most of  the content they see immediately is related to   pre-Columbian civilizations, Egypt, Rome, Greece,  Viking, et cetera. So how can we say that   local focus is important if we do not even  consider to disseminate this knowledge?  MS: Shanti, do you have anything to add? SP: Yeah, actually in India, the first   Palaeolithic stone artefact was discovered in the  area where Akhilesh and I are currently working,   way back in 1863, so not very long after the major  discoveries in Europe. So we have a really long  

tradition of local studies of the archaeology of India. India, as you know such a huge area,   huge region, different geomorphology, different  environments and fantastic to history. And in fact, the sites we are working at go back from  1 million to around 1.5, 1.7 million years.   So it's a marvellous heritage in our own  backyard. And it's been really well-studied  

for the past century, by numerous universities  and scholars in India and abroad and everywhere.  So when we began our research, there was  never any question about going anywhere else,   but just going out to our own backyard. And  go deeper into questions, which people have   touched on all these years. So much using whatever  new scientific techniques are available, new theoretical approaches to go deep into very local  problems that have a global significance. So that   has been a tradition in Indian archaeology. It's  always been about the sub-continent. So I think we   definitely love to compare our lithics and  our material with the neighbouring countries   and with Africa and Europe and elsewhere and  we are working with collaborators to do that,   but the research focus has always been very  local and I think that’s something very important   because as you correctly said the prehistory  of India is possibly not very well-known   anywhere in many places of the world. So this is  what we are trying to bring it to global notice  

in many ways. So by going deeper into problems  and obviously with collaboration of scientists in   India and abroad and a focus on what we have with  us here right now, that's always been our focus.   And of course, as he said to communicate this  knowledge, because as I mentioned earlier,   we have our focus always on big monuments.  So abroad you'd have heard of the Taj,  

but you would not have heard about the thousands,  literally thousands of prehistoric sites we have   all over the country. So that's the second aim  to make the knowledge of our local prehistory   available and accessible to not only the academic world, but also to the local stakeholders and to   children, teachers, and local populations to know  that they have such a wonderful heritage right   next to them. So that's been our aim, always. MS: That's really interesting, that there’s such   a difference between your two experiences. So in India, it's mainly focused on Indian   heritage and India prehistory, but then in Brazil, it's a lot on Europe as well as Brazil.    Do you find though, because João, you're teaching a lot more about Brazilian prehistory,   for example, do you find that students or members  of the public are then more interested if they   hear about Brazilian rather than European? Is it  sort of similar? How how's the reaction to that?  JM: Most of the time when people come to study  archaeology, to make an undergrad in archaeology,   they come because they're really interested  in these monumental things from the   pre-Colombian, Egypt, Rome et cetera. But when  they finally join the course and start seeing...,  

discover a whole new world on what  actually is Brazilian archaeology...,   because most of the public doesn't know about what  we have in Brazil. It's for as the academic people   that know much of what we have in Brazil. But when  all these students know they get so fascinated   that we actually have, like also having some  metal stuff, it's just not very disseminated,   or it wasn't until two years ago. And when the  general public learns about these things, they get   also fascinated on what we have here, because,  well, I'm not the best person to ask for it, but if you asked me, I would say that the  Brazilian prehistory is really fantastic.    So it's something that we fall in love for. MS: I guess as well for people if it's something local,  

then it's always a lot more interesting anyway,  because you can relate a lot more to it and   it's something more familiar, perhaps, even  if it's new to learn. You mentioned, Shanti,   collaborating with other groups in different  countries. How easy has it been for you to   connect with sort of experimental archaeology  groups in different parts of the world?  SP: Actually after that training in France,  I mean, I told you I was not good at all,   but Akhilesh sort of had a knack for it.   So definitely we have a lot of collaborations   with archaeologists and other scientists,  with people in different parts of the world.  

But so far, apart from EXARC, we've not had  really a tie-up as we’ve got our own lithic   knapping programs. Although we have a lot of  discussions with individual experts   and sort of sharing ideas with a lot of people who  are individually knapping, but not groups as such,   though we'd love to tie up more. And in fact,  I think it's great that EXARC is bringing us   all together under some sort of umbrella.  So that's fantastic. I'll be really keen to   collaborate and to build new projects and explore  new avenues within this field. So that's where we   are right now. So that's it, I think there's huge scope and we're really excited about it and some more papers  

and hopefully our book will be out regarding  our own research. So let's see how it goes.  MS: And following quickly up on that. Do you  find that there's other places in India that are   sort of starting up, trying to emulate the work  you're doing? How much collaboration is there   within India as well in this kind of thing? SP: Firstly, we are not a big centre. We are  

quite small. There are a lot of other people  also knapping and who have knapped before us. So we've learned from them and we learned from  their experiences also, and in our courses,   which we have taken to different universities  across India, so we have two types of courses: one is in-house, which we run in our Institute and the  other is very short duration traveling courses,   maybe a few days or a week or something like that  at different universities. So there we’ve had   excellent interactions with different people and  trained a number of batches of students, who are   now doing experimental knapping themselves and are  getting very good at it. So that's very satisfying   for us, that what Akhilesh has been teaching,  because he's the main knapper in this whole project. Those students are now coming up and  running their own projects for their own research.  

So this is really nice and I think we've had a  lot of cooperation and help and we do discuss and   interact with people who are interested knapping  and microwear in India as well. So on the whole,   it's been very positive so far. MS: And hopefully also a nice future,   if it seems that the knowledge is spreading out gradually throughout everyone.  SP: Yes, I think so. And we  did two in Sri Lanka as well,   those students are also doing knapping themselves now and are running their own projects I hope. 

MS: Great. AndJoão, so you also, obviously  you went to Exeter and you spent a lot of time   there learning about knapping, but in terms of  other parts of the world, non-European countries   or other places in Europe, but also other South American countries, but also within Brazil,   what are the difficulties or the eases, shall  we say, of collaborations in that respect?  JM: So when I started my PhD in 2015 it was  really difficult to connect because I didn't   know anyone with experience in the subject apart  from Professor Bradley. It was only in 2017 when   I was doing my studies in Exeter that I finally  met more people and got involved and got to know   many other institutions where people were  working with experimental archaeology.   I found out about EXARC for example. And so  I have become a member of this great group,  

hoping to see more Brazilians there soon as well. And after my girlfriend was working   with also experimental archaeology but focused on  bone tools. She is now also having contacts with   other institutions that I wasn't aware that were  doing other types of experimental archaeology,   for example, in Paris and Ushuaia in the extreme  South of Argentina where people are doing very,   very great works on this subject. And we found out how easy it is to   connect with people, especially on  experimental archaeology, because they also   are aware that there's few people in the world  doing this, especially non-European people doing   experimental archaeology. So they also want to be  connected with us. And every time we make contact   with these people, we basically have an automatic  invitation to go there as soon as possible   to collaborate with projects so this  has been very, very nice, very cool. 

MS: That sounds great. I'm very happy to hear  that so many people are getting more involved   in experimental archaeology in these different places. Moving to a slightly different topic...   so both of you are also very much involved with,  as you said, sort of public outreach and sort   of demonstrations and that kind of thing. When  you give examples of the different experimental   archaeology projects, so either when you're  demonstrating or when you're giving the courses,   what would you say is the most popular kind of  technology type or demonstration or example for   the public? So for the locals who are watching? SP: That's a great question. Actually, it depends  

on the age. So when we run these programs  for small children that is from six years   onwards, school children, then they are very  excited just to see a simple flake being   knocked off and when Akhilesh knocks  off the flake, and then he uses it on leather   or wood or something else they get very excited.  And when you come to a slightly older age group,   it's obviously the hand axe. So it's the bi-facial  knapping, which everyone is fascinated with,  

the symmetry, which takes shape in front of you  as he knaps and transforms a piece of rock into a   beautiful symmetrical hand axe. That's what people  really love watching. And obviously it depends on   the time, if there's not much time, we demonstrate  bi-facial flaking in stages. And if there is time,   then he makes a little hand axe for someone. And another thing which people really like to get   their hands on is making blades. So when Akhilesh  prepares a core and then individually helps people   to knock off a blade. So that is something which  is really popular with college groups.

In our longer courses and workshops, we take them right  from knocking off flakes, through bi-facial level,   wall blades, microliths and polished stone tools that is for university graduates.  And I think everywhere there’s a sort of  fascination for hand-axes and blades in our   experience, generally the hand axe. Otherwise,  it depends on how you teach them and how you   excite interest in the whole thing.  This is what our experience shows.   

So we modify the demonstration or the interaction  with people depending on the type of crowd   available and the age group of course. It's really fascinating. We have to do that.  MS: Do you also find, I'm just curious  that there's a difference between,   you mentioned the age groups, but is there  also a difference between men versus women?  SP: In terms of knapping skills maybe yes, to  some extent in some of the groups, but in terms of   interest, no, it's universal. I mean the  simple act of detaching a flake and using it   to cut a piece of leather or wood or something,  generates equal fascination, whatever the age   group for a novice, for someone who doesn't  know anything about this. And once they are   aware a little more of prehistory, it's the hand axes and  the symmetry, which is achieved through clicking,   which is really always popular. I think it's a mix of aesthetics   and technology. Both. For a general audience. MS: The general public. Yeah, exactly. Do you   have a similar experience or do you find,  it's different with your crowds, João? JM: Making stone tools for a group of people is  always the most liked thing. It’s mind-blowing  

when we show them that we can break rocks with  our hands and we can shape them the way we want   and how we can predict the shape of every flake  that gets out. What I'd like to do is getting a   piece of chalk and drawing the form of the flake  that I want to get off. And then we strike it and   the flake comes exactly in the shape that the chalk is there. People just get “Oh my God...”  MS: I wish I could do that! JM: In my lectures, people are regularly paying   attention to what I say and oh... and etcetera.  But when I say let's make a demonstration, dozens   of cell phones pop up all around me. It was like,  since like, this is the only thing they came for  

actually sometimes. And of course they always love  to have the opportunity to try and make the flakes   themselves and using them as knives and  arrowheads if we do some practice experiments,   So, yeah, when we talk about stone tools,  or anything experimental with stone tools is what people most get excited for. SP: Yes I think we have the same experience here.  MS: A universal trait. Everyone just  loves stone tools! Well, on which note, 

I have one final question before we open this  up to our listeners. So you've already sort of   briefly mentioned a couple of ideas, but what are  your kind of general plans for the future and how   more specifically can the EXARC community who  are listening today help to make a difference,   do you think, in regards to the points that we've  discussed today? Perhaps João, you could go first?  JM: My plan for now is to finish my  Postdoc research, to get a professor position    in university, hopefully, and keep researching South American prehistory,   even if I get a job somewhere else. Because again, I'm in love with Brazilian   prehistory and it's important to know everywhere.  Keep disseminating archaeology to the general public,    as I'm doing now with the Arqueologia e Pré-História network of science communication   and to make any efforts to develop experimental   archaeology in Brazil. EXARC is already  helping me with some of these aspects,  

not just by being here in the show today but by  making experimenters more closer to each other,   allowing us to learn and teach and make  great discussions and plans for the future. MS: Okay. Glad we could help. Shanti? SP: Yes, I think we have actually three   main aims for the immediate future. I can't see  what's going to happen later, but the first   is to develop our own experimental programmes in  terms of research and network with more people   who, if they're interested, can join us in this  and to structure more systematic modules,   to address questions related to prehistory and  develop our microwear centre as well. So that's,   as far as research is concerned, so that involves  a lot of networking and in that EXARC also plays a   very important role. And the second is regarding  children and outreach through our interpretation centres.    So we have already been developing these  modules in different, not only lithics, but also   other aspects of experimental archaeology and we have now plans to expand that and that's going on right now.   

And the third is regarding our teaching programs. So every module which we design,   when we've had these short term courses, we try to improve on that   and add something new every time. Our aim  is to improve these further and to continue,   once this pandemic is over of course, until then online and then later on offline again.  

We developed better courses, in terms of  experimental lithic knapping, and prehistory. [...]   So these three aims are there and that's what  we have been working at and I hope we can do it.   And EXARC of course forms a very important part  in this, in all aspects, actually, not only the research,    but also the public outreach. We're quite excited about speaking about our work in   this conference, and I'm hoping we can get  feedback and new ideas and collaborations.

2021-03-12 11:37

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