E Waste, Circular Economy and Innovation

E Waste, Circular Economy and Innovation

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[Dr Robyn Remke] Welcome all of you who  are just now entering to our webinar today.   I’m going to turn it over to Dr Stowell  who is a senior lecturer in our department   of organisation work and technology here  at Lancaster university management school.   She's also the associate director of the  Pentland centre, which is an amazing research and   pedagogical centre focusing on issues  around climate change and sustainability   from a management school perspective. Which is a  quite exciting intersectional space to be in. So   with that I’m going to turn it over to Dr Stowell  and give her the floor and I will come back   at the end of the presentation to help facilitate  any kinds of questions that you might have   so, welcome everybody and Alison over to you. [Dr. Alison Stowell] Thank You Robyn,   I’m just going to share my screen so I’ve  got some slides to share with you before I   introduce the presentation. I’m hoping  that when I do this can you see my slides? 

[Robyn] I can yes. [Alison] Great okay, so one thing   I just wanted to mention to all of you before we  start is that this presentation is being recorded,   but we will stop the recording at the end  of the talk so that we can have a very open   conversation about any questions that you may  have. So my presentation is called e-waste the   circular economy and innovation. And the pitch  of this presentation really is around what sort   of management and organisational challenges we  may have in in regards to our resource usage.  

When I talk about electronic waste, I talk about  it in very specific terms. Now electronic waste   can be anything from your kettle to a novelty toy  with some kind of electronic current going through   it. It could be your computers it could be a  PlayStation, your washing machine your fridge   freezer, this term has a very huge scope. But for  the purposes of this presentation and my interest,   when I refer to electronic waste I’m going to  talk about it in the context of technology.  

Like our laptops, like our mobile telephones.   So I wanted to give the start of this  presentation a little bit of background   of how I became interested in electronic waste  before we go through the rest of the session So my research interest really is, as an  academic, the organisation of electronic   waste and more recently and more broadly complex  wastes. So I’m interested in how societies,   organisations and management  respond to these challenges   and what type of values we attribute  to waste. Also the type of occupations  

now how I became interested in this really  sort of became apparent when I worked at IBM.   I’ve had a lot of experience prior to becoming  an academic in the public and private sector   spheres even. But when I worked at IBM I  was put on this staff retention program   which allowed me to use it as a springboard and  to actually do a masters which is how I first   encountered Lancaster. Exploring, sort of, some  areas around technology and change. But at the  

time when I did my masters I became very curious  as to what IBM were doing with all the discarded   technology. At the time when I was working there  they were also selling off their manufacturing   sites to Lenovo, so I started becoming curious and  I wanted to know you know, sort of, where do these   products end up. You know there's so much  creativity in it and you know ingenuity   put into developing these devices where did they  go and you know at the time you know this was sort   of in the mid 2000s there was big NGO campaigns  around you know sort of all the global north's   discarded technologies were going to the global  south. And some big exposes which I think you  

know sort of that's a legacy story now. I also  became curious as to what type of organisations   were involved in this. So I’ve had the privilege  of working with many organisations, from companies   that provide recycling services, to companies  that reuse these devices , to companies that   retrain using old technologies and retrain people  in skills in this area. Also companies that deal   with asset recovery, governments and so on and  so forth. I also sort of was really curious   about policy and as I said you know when I was  doing my study for my masters, there was lots   of new policies especially in the UK that  were trying to tackle our electronic waste.  

And I love this photograph at the end here because  this at one of my research sites was my stripping   bench where I actually physically stripped  computers to find out what was actually involved   in the process. So the talk I want to give  you today is to sort of think about what is   our issue with resource usage, what are the  potential solutions and then I want to talk   about why are we not capturing our resources  but very specifically in relation to e-waste   and then sort of conclude the presentation with  what are the alternatives or what sort of things   could we think about as practicing managers and  organisations around this particular domain.   So in a nutshell we've got a significant issue in  regards to climate change and our resource usage   contributes to that. The image that I’m showing  you on the screen indicates that if we carry   on using the resources at the rate we do, taking  them from the earth, you know making our products   and then disposing them. We've already surpassed  100 billion tons of resources which is more than   the earth can actually sustain. But if we carry  on in this trajectory by 2050 that will be 177   you know giga-tons of resources that we'll use.  Which, I can't even compute that number. But when  

we're actually extracting and we're making things  and we're producing and selling them, all of this   has a carbon footprint and a significant one at  that. So if we carry on this trajectory of our   unsustainable resource usage we're also going to  carry on the trajectory of warming up the planet.   And quite simply if we hit, if the planet warms up  by over three or four degrees it starts becoming   uninhabitable for human life. So this is just a  newspaper article that I found from last year,  

which indicated you know the world consumption  habits have now reached this milestone.   But what we use our resources in our housing, is  communication is you know sort of delivering of   services and we're extracting minerals, ores and  all sorts, but a lot of our materials are idle   you know you think about I mean not  at the moment in the global pandemic,   but you think about how often your house is laid  idle or how frequently you use your car. Some of   the resources that we use are already built into  products and housing and infrastructures that   are sort of idle, but there are is a vast  amount of resources that we're throwing away.   I should say that there's a report that's  published every January around the world the   same time as the world economic forum, and it's  called the circularity report. It's been going   for the last three or four years and what they're  trying to do in this report is capture how we use   our resources and understand how circular we  are with our resource usage. When it was first  

published it showed that the world was successful  in recapturing some of its resources, about nine   percent but over the last couple of years that's  dropped down to eight point six percent. But it's   well worth looking at that report. Now how we've  got here with this resource usage I always think   of an interesting dichotomy for want of a better  word is, you know, we have industrialised, we have   developed since the 1800s around the industrial  revolution, but what our development's given us   and what the Stockholm Resilience Centre has shown  in these hockey graphs for want of a better word,   is the positive socioeconomic trends now you know  we see that we've got an increase in population,   which is fantastic because it's showing that  people are living for longer and our health's   improved. We're seeing that more people are  becoming more affluent, we're seeing that you know   we've got transportation which is allowing has  allowed us pre-Covid, to travel around the world,   share products, we've got telecommunications  and we've got sort of international tourism. So   there's lots of positive signs that have happened  with how society has developed in some regards   right and I’m not saying that these benefits are  um equal across the world. But on the flip side   what this resource usage is showing  is the unsustainable trends,   so we've got carbon dioxide rising and even in the  environment with coved where we're not travelling   or moving around so frequently. Signs are showing  that the carbon dioxide is still increasing in  

our atmosphere, we've got ocean assistive  acidification we've got biodiversity loss. We've got issues around land usage, so whilst  we've got these positive development activities   we've also got these negative activities.  And one contribution is our resource use.   Now part of this too is how our  economies developed and there was   an Economist Schumpeter who really was interested  in why the economy seemed to rise and then fall.  

What was happening here? He studied you know  different economic circumstances, but what   he found here and this is how it's going to tie  into sort of electronic waste if you like. Is   that he saw that the economy there was a boost in  the economy when new innovations were introduced.   So what he saw was every sort of 40 to 50 years  we'd get a new innovation. And this would then   boost the economy drop the economy until  something new came along. So if you look on  

here on the charts you know sort of around the  1950s and 1990s where we have electronics here   and you look at some of the companies that started  up around this time like Microsoft and some of the   technology giants we have today. This was sort  of the introduction of our digital networks our   software and our media. Now Klaus Schwab from  the World Economic Forum wrote a publication   called The Coming of the Fourth Industrial  Age. The next wave he argues is us moving   into more sustainable pathways of creating  new products and services. For me one thing   that's key here when we think about discarding  things it's always one wave behind innovation. So here are sort of some of the major concerns  that are put forward from policy and business   spheres, you know if we continue this resource  usage if we continue this economic development   that's very much in this linear fashion. We're  going to continue to degrade the environment.  

The Circle Economy, in their gap report, they  indicate that if we moved to a better way of   reusing our resources then we could  halve the greenhouse gas emissions from   our production and consumption services. There's  issues around resource scarcity you know the earth   can't sustain the amount of resources we're using  so with resource scarcity comes price volatility.   So if we're only using sort of 8.6 of the  materials that are out there that's a huge,   in business terms, that's a huge financial loss or  a missed opportunity. There's also issues around   reputational capital, you know, your clients,  your stakeholders, your consumers are starting   to ask questions about where are your products  and services made? Are they environmental? Unless   we pay attention to sort of the resource use and  how we extract out where we get it from where we   source it and use it, then you know this causes  issues for reputation for many organisations.   There's also concerns around compliance costs,  there's lots of mobilising agendas, the EU have   the circular economy package for example. There's  lots of environmental legislation companies are  

doing shadow carbon pricing preparing for more  legislation coming in and again you know sort of   this this is an area of concern. Then finally, and  I’ve put these in no particular order by the way,   there are social costs with our resource usage  you know climate change is unequally distributed.   Some countries suffer more than others. Also  you know if we're creating an environment   where the earth temperature is rising  we're having more extreme weather   events and so on and so forth. We're also creating  issues around healthcare and we're also recreating   poverty so for example in in rural places in say  somewhere like Peru or Bolivia where farming is   very important, if all of a sudden the land  becomes arid and dry or it becomes flooded,   then people who live in those urban environments  and are working in agriculture will then go into   poverty themselves because they can't produce  the crops that they may sell in the future.  

So a big solution around this, and this has  really been mobilising probably since around   sort of 2005-2007, is in policy and business  fears is this notion of the circular economy.   Now I’ve put a definition up that comes from  The Ellen MacArthur foundation and this is   one of the most pervasive definitions of what  a different type of economy could look like.   So a circular economy, as it says here, is one  that's restorative and regenerative by design   and it aims to keep our products components  and materials at their highest utility   and value at all times. It distinguishes  between technical and biological cycles.   Now there's lots of debate around whether this is  an appropriate definition whether this definition   is one that's just focusing on eco-efficiency,  it misses out people but nonetheless this is the   definition that's very  pervasive all over the world. So here's the model that goes with  it right and if I put my arrow,   I’ve got two screens that's why I’m turning  to the side, if you can see my cursor here.   What the circular economy is trying to address is  to move us away from this linear economy of take   make and then dispose. What it's saying is that  we've got lots of leakages here, there's lots of  

negative externalities and you know if we actually  adopt different cycles and different ways of   working with our resources, we can use renewable  energy we can decarbonise in this biological cycle   and then in this technical cycle we can  look at other alternative business models.   The type of business models they're offering here  are thinking about circular supply chains I’ve   already mentioned you know shifting energy usage  to renewables, biomaterials, resource recovery.   Thinking about building products or services to  last and different sharing platforms or thinking   about whether we could actually, instead of  owning a product, whether we could use it as   a service and a mobile phone is quite a good  example isn't it here in terms of a lot of us   lease our phones, we have contracts that we  then hand our phone back in, or some of us do. So then, what has this got to do with  e-waste? Now where e-waste fits in here   is we are generating so much, you know, so much  so that in according to the UNEP global e-waste   monitor report that happens every couple of years.  The world is throwing 53 million metric tons   of these electrical and electronic devices  away a year. So that's 800 laptops per second,   so you think how long we're together today you  know in that 60 minutes. How many laptops are  

going to be thrown away? Now these products  combined the materials contained within them   are worth anywhere between, I’ve put this in  euros actually, 47 billion euros which is similar   to pounds or 57 billion us dollars. So it's  a lucrative business because these devices   can be made up of anywhere between 700 to 1000  different chemicals, they use rare earth metals   some that are on our critical resource list like  copper, unless we can find a better conductor   for electricity at the moment most of the  electricity is conducted through copper,   which is in all our devices. And you know we have  we haven't got many years left of mining for those   metals. In this report too it indicates that we're  only recapturing 20 percent of this 53 million.  

Now a lot of triggers happen around  electronic waste and partly the   reason we're generating so much especially  around technology is due to upgrade speeds   and for many of us it's our desire  to have something shiny and new. Us wanting you know the speed  at which our computers operate   and I always found it a fascinating fact when  I first started researching this, that most   of us only use the 10 of the functionality our  laptops and computers give us. So whether we need   you know the latest version is questionable.  There's also issues around sort of trying to  

encourage right to access, there was a big drive  in the European Union and across the world where   people have the right to access information  and how we access information can be through   technologies you know there's more mobile  phones on the planet than people at the moment.   In some countries there's issues around landfill  capacity reaching its maximum, you know we've   got nowhere to put this waste now. I’ve mentioned  critical resources and there's challenges around   waste infrastructures, some are more developed  than others and that we've also got this mind-set   about short-term economic gain versus long-term  sustainability. I mean do these devices enable   us to foster our business in a more network and  capable way than whether we could think about   whether we could do something in a different  way. We purchased laptops that might be cheaper,  

when actually we could think about is  the laptop made sustainably for example?   So I’d like to take a break here  right and ask you all to open up   your browser on your computer because I’d  like to hear from you what you think are the   challenges with capturing electronic waste, so if  you could open a browser on your screen and type. www.menti.com and then put in the code 88 95 69 8  we can have a look at some of your responses as to   why you what you see are the challenges around  capturing e-waste. So I’m going to stop sharing   my screen and go to the menti presentation  just to see what some of you are putting in.

[Robyn] Alison can you put  that code back up for us   or maybe put the code in the  chat maybe some of us missed it. [Alison] It's just going to come up on the  screen now again. Can you see my screen? [Robyn] We can but we're already  starting to see some emoji’s,   I think if you could, oh there's  the code there I see it okay. [Alison] All right it's 88 95 69. So, let me  just go back here and make sure I’m on the   wrong here right okay. So I’m starting to  see emoji’s, I’m not starting to see words

[Guest] Yeah same hear, I think the  quiz is taking time to load. [Alison] If I leave you answering  that then we'll come back to that   and we'll see how many we share at the rest of  the presentation. So bear with me with that one. [Guest] So it's currently just saying, get  ready to play so I don't know if you've,   it needs to be started or...

[Alison] I thought I had bear  with me, let me just go back here. [Robyn] I seem to be having  some issues as well Allison. [Guest] I think if you press  enter it will start it.

[Alison] Thank you very much for that,  who would believe that I worked at IBM?   with my technology usage. Okay Okay so that's great, so here we've got  come back here we've got some great points,   collection points and eco waste  awareness cooperation with corporations,   ease of disposal, lack of collection points,  consumers not knowing how and where to dispose   and the complexity of disassembly. I’m hoping  that some of these we will actually now cover.   So I’m going to stop sharing this screen but  please remember keep that browser open because   I do have a little bit of work for you to do  again and I’m going to re-share my slides. Okay so from the research, I’ve been  very, as I mentioned at the start,   I’ve been very lucky in working with some of  the organisations that I have around this.  

Now one of the big reasons I think we don't  recapture e-waste is the term waste itself.   Now the term waste itself when I did my sort  of explorations into this is a term if you take   it back to its theological and also ecological  roots, was described as wasteland and wasteland   is a threat to humanity because it's a piece  it's a landscape where humans can't survive.   So waste then starts to have  this negative connotation with it   and over time where we've been developing you  know in the world we and we started to urbanise,   we started to view waste as something that was  very static and controllable but it still provided   some disorder to our communities and urban areas,  especially in terms of health and hygiene. So lots   of infrastructures were set up to move waste  out of cities and to stop you know sort of the   transmission of diseases. So you know sort of we  shifted we still saw it as something negative we  

wanted to sort of move it away out of sight out  of mind. Until today we actually now have really   complicated wastes, you know historically we've  had by um biodegradable wastes because we didn't   have um things made out of petrochemicals and  so forth. But waste now has become something   that circulates so you know you only need to  think about the plastic crisis. So I think one   of the key reasons why we're not recapturing  e-waste too is how we understand that term,   we assume that as soon as something's waste we  want to you know sort of get rid of it so it   encourages us not to see value. Another which you  mentioned on the Menti meter too is the challenge  

of tracking the flows and fates of e-waste.  Now this map that I’ve put up on the screen   was um a map of thinking about when I was doing  my PhD research and some research after that,   was what happens to a computer and I always  found it fascinating that you nowhere in the UK,   that's where I did my PhD research,  could actually recycle a whole computer.   So these errors on the screen show where all  the different parts of the computer went and   for reuse I found it fascinating that one company  was supporting and I didn't find it fascinating   that they were supporting a charity that needed  computers for schooling but I found it fascinating   that they transported the computers to the country  and then transported it all the way back and never   thought about setting up an infrastructure or  opportunity there to dismantle the computers.   So they took a 16,000 mile round trip. And I think  also you know it's really hard especially sort of  

today too is where you know trying to track where  we're selling all these materials. There's so many   places you can sell secondhand goods online  but circuit boards inside our technologies   were going on slow boats to Japan to smelters to  extract gold silver you know sort of palladium,   there were batteries were going to France and so  on and so forth. So one of the issues really is   around tracking the flows and fates. Where do our  resources go? Another area of concern is around   disposal practices, we automatically, there is an  assumption that when we discard something it's a   wasteful act, and it actually isn't you know when  we discard things it can be a space to consume,   it can be an economic opportunity, it shows some  sense of freedom that you know we have the power   to throw something away we think we don't need. So  we have to recognise that disposal practices are   really connected into how we already organize  our world they're connected into issues of   how we consume, what our identities are either as  individuals or as organisations and what we value. There's also concerns around data security,  you know, when we're getting rid of our   organisational devices are they wiped of  security data. This can often mean that  

sometimes organisations hoard their devices you  know I know I hoard some of my mobile phone and my   computers here until I’m satisfied that I all the  data is gone and I can send it for end of life.   So that the picture here shows some of the  systems that were getting rid of some of the data   on discarded devices. There's also concerns about  when we discard our e-waste whether they're going   to organisations that are compliant do they  have good organisational practices. You know   are they extracting the right values  from this complying to legislations. There are also issues where people  have concerns about reputation,   in regards to if they were to sell off second-hand  devices for example. Where would they end up?   So for example one of the  organisations I worked with   had concerns and they needed a third party in  to make sure that the second hand goods were,   it's IPAT testing I believe, were elect you know  sort of compliant that if they handed them on to   a repair organisation then they weren't at risk  of being held to account if one of those devices   malfunctioned or disrupted. So there are issues  around sort of reputational capital and actually  

connecting with organisations that actually  undertake repair. There's a huge policy landscape   you know there's global solutions and I’ve put one  of these here the Basel convention which tries to   stop the transportation of hazardous waste,  which as I mentioned earlier you know some   of these devices have 700 to 1000 chemicals in, in  the past they've had things like arsenic and lead.   There's national solutions all over  the world you know I think there's   about 67 national solutions now in countries of  legislation specifically for electronic waste.   There's also the whole mind field around  voluntary policy, whether you're meeting   certain standards and whether your customers  and clients expect that. Especially if your   client is somebody who's going to be handing  on the upgraded devices from an organisation.   Then one of the things I found really fascinating  is there's issues of collection and storage   in order for anything to be profitable  and there has to be a feedstock   and so you don't really want to individually  we can actually sell our one devices   you know maybe through one of the second-hand  platforms, but as an organisation you don't   really want to be handing one in one out.  Typically you want you know sort of a good  

amount so one organisation I spoke to really  I found it fascinating that they used to   donate all their products to a charity, the  charity would then effectively store it in   their warehouse whilst they refurbished the  offices and then they'd buy it back. So there   are these issues around storage and somebody  actually quite rightly pointed out collection. And of course there's issues around educational  awareness. You know depending on what type of  

organisation you run or you work within, there  is a perception that people want you know I   found it fascinating when I worked at IBM, that  everybody wanted the latest laptop they wanted   the latest mobile phone in order to do their job.  I was as guilty as most you know getting really   excited when it was time, it was two and a half  years then, when it was time for a new laptop.   So there is one is around sort of behavioural  change in getting people to realise   what they what service they want from their  technologies. Another also is around raising   education and awareness about how to dispose of  these things. The picture on the screen is by  

the government organise a government sort of  body called material focus who've started this   innovative drive for households around recycling  your electronics, because I was involved in a   study as part of this piece of research where  we were trying to look at the unreported flows   of e-waste and what we found was that people  were hoarding, waste was actually going into   the household bin and so you were losing a  lot here so there is a big part around sort of   education and awareness also. So if we reflect  back on the circular economy or reflect back on   the resource uses challenges you can see all the  same a mirrored here for electronic waste right.   Environmental degradation, you know transportation  emission costs, resource scarcity, reputational   capital, compliance costs and social costs  here too. So this leads to sort of the third  

part of the presentation then. What are  the alternatives? What can we do about it?   And here you know The World Economic Forum have  raised electronic waste back up into the spotlight   and in 2019 they released this report saying a new  circular vision for electronics, it's time for a   global reboot, it's time for us to see the value  in what we're doing. In this model here, you know,   they cover elements to think about if you  remember the definition of the circular economy   is about not just becoming efficient in collecting  resources, it is about thinking of future designs.   They came up with this to think about sourcing  manufacturing, the life of the product,   life extensions and what we do with end of life,  which very much fit into some of those circular   business models that I mentioned before. So some  of the lessons that I could take away and from  

speaking to sort of different organisations,  are the following. You know all organisations   procure and source products. Especially IT related  ones, so there are specific questions you can   think about, if you don't already. Where does your  supplier feature in sustainability? Where and how   are the products manufactured? You  know how durable are the products?   At one charity that I did some research with,  they had a real bug bear that some of the   elements and components inside computers  and laptops would last 10 or 15 years,   but the rest of it, the software would fail or  other components would fail which would then mean   that it was hard to repair and it was also  redundant earlier than it needs to be. So  

do your employees and do you need a brand new IT  equipment? Could you use remanufactured equipment?   Could you consider leasing your products, leasing  your IT infrastructure and hold your um supplier   into account of delivering a service  that is suitable for your organisation?   And also to think about what incentives  are there around sort of returning devices   do the people that you're going to procure your  devices from offer this? I think you can also   reflect upon how you use your devices, I  mentioned earlier that it always fascinates me   that we only use or, and I’m sure I’m true here,  10 percent of the functionality of a computer.   So depending on what service or products  your organisation make does everybody need   the highest spec equipment? Can this equipment  have second life elsewhere in the organisation?   Is there further opportunities to virtualise  and reduce the amount of equipment you have?   And can these devices have a second life outside  of your organisation? So for example you know you   could think about your organisation's purpose  and values is either particular communities you   are aligned with that could use this equipment.  There's also considerations about life extension,   you know when you're selecting your, if  you move to a model of service rather than   ownership, you will by default hopefully have a  maintenance contract involved. Which means that   your products can be fixed, but if you don't you  know can you collaborate with other organisations   to do the repair. I mean there was a big trend  of offshoring, outsourcing, insourcing and it  

may well be within your organisation you have  a strong IT department, but do they deal with   repair? Typically repair takes time and there was  a great comparison I had between a private sector   organisation and a charity, the charity's main aim  was to actually train people in computing skills   and the private sector organisation  was very keen on making a profit,   but they gave 15 minutes to repair a computer  whereas the charity might give five or six hours.   So can we change the mindset here you know are  there other organisations you could engage with?   Can we raise the profile of repair again? Some of  the people that I encountered in the waste sector   from my perspective especially in reuse and repair  have skills equivalent of technical support or IT   architecture, so there could be opportunities  here for repair and maintenance offerings with   it you know expanding your job ranges within  your companies. There was a lovely study done   in Ireland that showed for every thousand  tons of electronic waste thrown away you   could generate 15 recycling jobs and 200 repair.  I found that you know sort of very fascinating.   So when we think of end of life, how do  you collect the products? Where are you   going to store them to make sure that you  have sufficient amount to be taken away?   Can you share storage? Are there you know are you  on a technology park for example, what services   are local to you are there organisations like  asset recovery companies out there that could   give you these services and what opportunities are  there for partnership? You know, this very much   falls in the ethos of the sharing economy and some  of those crowdsourcing if you like opportunities.  

So these are sort of some of the lessons or  takeaways of alternative ways you could think   about sort of procuring and using your electronics  within your organisation and recapturing them.   So that's almost me done for this presentation  so I’d like to thank you for listening,   but before I finish I’d like  to ask you one final question   where I would like you to return to Menti meter  and hopefully now I know how to operate it   and move beyond the icons. To say well what's  your key takeaway and I’ll come back to the   challenges and opportunities to finish so  what is your top e-waste takeaway today? I’m just going to share my stop sharing this  screen and I’m going to re share my other screen.

Can you see this other screen? [Robyn] I can see it yes it looks great. [Alison]  So we've got sharing and scarce  materials, partnerships, repair, reuse.   So for me what I think this is showing is all the  opportunities that are out there and not just for   electronic waste, I’ve used that as an example  for better resource usage in organisations,   you know there are opportunities to reduce your  environmental impact, there's opportunities for   growth, there's opportunities for  you know this new economic paradigm   and there's opportunities for serviceability,  you know there's opportunities to create   jobs. Which I think this is a very exciting time  but I will finish by saying sort of adopting this  

new economic paradigm of the circular economy,  has to be done also very mindfully in order to   take into sort of a lot of the limits of the earth  too but I think it is a positive step forward. So, thank you very much for sharing  your thoughts and I will leave it there.

2021-03-31 08:42

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