Dr. Manuel Chakravarty, IOHK Language Architect, on Cardano programming - Episode 14

Welcome. Everyone to the card ah no effects, hot cast episode, 14, the, purpose of this podcast is to take high-level, developer information, and projects. That are occurring within the cardinal space and break, them down into bite-sized, consumable. Pieces of information for, everyday use, I'm your host Phillippe and let's get this podcast, started so. We have our original, Cardinal, effects squad today Sebastien, is back so the three of us will be interviewing, a special, guest on our podcast today Rick, will be introducing, him shortly and I, just wanted to thank, everyone for all the reddit question submissions, thank, you for all the support on previous youtube videos thanks, for all the comments we read, all of them and we are compiling, them even though questions, that you send to our emails, we, have a backlog, but we are reading them we are getting through to them and we, really appreciate, all the support so. I wanted to shout out first. George, sent us an email and he is, doing a meet-up in Georgia, Tbilisi. Georgia and we. Had Daniel Friedman, on the podcast the other day and he was talking about this this grand event that they're having it, I believe it's called tech Park in Georgia, and it seems that Cardno, is has. A foothold, in, Georgia, so that's wonderful to hear and it's happening, January. 25th, and January, 26th. Of this month so that's great so, great job George if I was in Georgia I would be attending the Meetup but unfortunately I'm not but anyone in that area should go, and check it out. So, I wanted, to also preface this by saying that none of what we say on this podcast is, financial, advice or should be taken as such you, are your best financial adviser and if you don't think you are you need to find someone who's qualified to do so we're, just a few guys who are very passionate about Cardno and we'd, like to talk about it so with that being said I'm going to pass the mic over to Rick Rick, how are you doing this morning, Phillipe. I'm doing great today thanks for asking, and a few other pieces of news we have out there there's also a meetup by going that will be going on in Amsterdam, that was organized by Andy if there's any other meetups, that are going on drop. Us a line so that we can get it out get it announced on the podcast here there, was a very interesting website, that came online recently, called edu, Cleo dot one it has. Lessons. On their educational. Information. And that's, supported, by. Markus, and Robert, and so lots. Of new information community. Developed, stuff, coming out community, support projects coming out and one other reminder this podcast, is available on google play music you, have to search google play music also.

ITunes, SoundCloud, Spotify. Libsyn, and in, the next few days we will be releasing, on I Heart Radio once, we have that enabled I'll let you know when we actually launch on I heart so. Let's, get to introducing, our guests here we, have dr., Manuel, Chakravarti. That who, will be on our podcast today and I, have a spy oh here and. We. Have let, me go through that briefly excuse, me, Manuel. Chakravarti is a research and developer specializing, in programming, languages and compilers. With the focus on functional, programming. He. Has made many contributions to, the development of the Haskell programming language. Tools, and libraries, he. Code developed, and implemented, the foreign function interface and, the language extensions, for both type families, and associated types he. Was involved in data parallel, Haskell, vector. Rippa, and accelerate. He. Wrote the CETA haskell binding generator, and the Haskell for Mac development. Environment. Manuel was an associate professor at, UNSW Sydney, holds. A PhD, from. The Technical, University of, Berlin and received. A Master, of Science through, Karlsruhe Institute of, Technology, he. Has published extensively on, functional programming compilers. And high performance, computing, and one. The most influential, paper award at the International, Conference on functional, programming in 2015. He, joined IO HK in. 2018. Dr.. Chakravarti, you go, by man well welcome, to the program, and how are you doing today sir. Thank. You Rick I'm great, and thank. You very much for having me on the Donna effect it's got to be here do, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit of background, sure. I. Mean, already gave the summary I'm a. Computer, scientist, but. I'm. I. I. Grew. Up and, was raised in Germany but it's. Been a. Long, time in Australia, with, the Sindh in Japan, in between after I, finished. My PhD lecturing. There and. I've. Been working at the University of. New. South Wales in, shop and. Working. On a functional. Programming, programming, languages, compilers, and I'm, represented. About Haskell functional programming which everybody, who seen me at Twitter or anybody else anywhere, else will surely, now and. In. Life recently, relocated. To. Utrecht. In the Netherlands, and. Actually. Only half a year ago so I am back in Europe and. Yeah. I'm, I've, always, been very interested in. Compilers. It's. Kind. Of which. The, gap between. Humans. And machines, in, some sense because, it's, the tool which. Translates. The, code. That a software, developer, writes into, into. The instructions, that a computer can actually execute and, so. That's something that has fascinated. Me. For. A long time and then. That obviously, connects to programming, languages, which is how I got into, programming and. Now. I. Think it's. Very interesting, with. Programming, languages, to see the different platforms on which they, are executing. And. Obviously. Block, chains are. The. Latest contender. And, so. Now working. On trying, to figure out how how, can we. Program. Script. Whatevs. On a blockchain in. A good way in a secure. And safe way and that's. A very exciting job. Well. So you're, the person as a language architect, you. Write, the code that the engineers, use to write their code on top of is that how I understand, it correctly. That's. A good way to put it yeah we saw, the Plutus, team. Provides. The toolset. Which. Developers. Who want to implement. Distributed, application, smart contracts. On Carano. That. They are using in, order to write, and, compile. And LOI, account. Interesting. Interesting, so this segues. Into this question. Why. Cardno, how what, got you into this project it's such a niche project, why why. This one why this cryptocurrency. What. What's so appealing. About this blockchain. So. I, think that's actually two. Different, questions insofar. As. Way. I got, into kitano and. Working with Irish K is. Series. Of coincidences I, guess. Which. I can tell you more about in. A second and then, there's the question of. Katana. In the because pace of, blockchains. Which, is. Ahsoka, know so. It wasn't me, looking at different luck change and thinking like one is the best. Picking. Cotton or it's. More that I bought to kitano and, then I, did. My homework and looked around and I thought well that, was, Leonard. Misurata, I see, this. Is actually the right project. So. The way I got, to. Padano. Is. Through. Consultancy. Called tweet, IO which. Is out of Paris and. Tweak. IO has. Relationship. Is a for quite a while and quite. A few, people from eke work, I asked, in, different parts of. The. Development. Process and. Yeah. So that's the. How. I got. To work on I dunno but. So. When want to design a. Uncracked. Language, for adoption, then you. Need to understand, what people want to do with it and to, do that you need to understand, what, is, the technology good for what what, can it how, does it work, so naturally. And also with my background, as a scientist, the natural, first step of course is to do.

Research And. So. I spent quite a while comparing. Analyzing. Trying to understand, all, the different white, papers, and, whatever other information is, out there and, and I. Am. Convinced, that Hirano. Is a is, a really, great project. Which. Has. Many. Advantages over. Other. Block pens and and one big reason for that is I think is. Attitude. Just. In repeated. Every. Often, explained. Very often by trials, that in. This space is really important, to do work which is fundamental. Which is based on science, where. What. We are doing is being, published, in peer-reviewed. Venues. Other, ways that you can have a look at and and make sure you're technically. Doing the right thing and, I. Think, it's an enormous, strength, I think, it is something which is very unique to kitano to, have this really. Foundational. Scientific. Basis, great. Response we like to hear that so, we. Sebastian. Rick and I heard, you speak at Plutus fest great. Great, speech by the way and, for. All the viewers out there so, Cardno, has a plethora, of. Products. And sometimes, it's confusing to group, everything. And figure out exactly what. What. Things are serving. What purpose so we. Have Plutus, we have Marlow we, have yella and we have ka VM and from. What is understood, Plutus. And Marlowe exists, in this realm and then yellow exists in this realm and then KVM, exists, in its own realm as well so, what, is the difference for, a smart, contract developer. Why, would they want to build on Plutus, or Marlowe versus, yella or just. Build their aetherium smart contract, within ka VM what, is the difference. So. The. Difference here. Is really. Addressing. Different requirements. So. Just, to first, address, ke. V M le and then suits, Milo. The. Idea, with KVM, is, really. To say okay there's, this existing. Infrastructure. EVM. Underlying, a serum and a. Lot code has been written, for it but, we all know a lot. Of bad code has been written for it as well so. At. This point let's first understand. What. From. A computer science point of view what's, actually the meaning how does this thing actually really, work, that's. What ke V M is a formalization. Of the EVM, in, a framework called. K, a runtime. Verification. And. So. This, takes this existing, technology. Understood. On a new level and then. Allows. Us to, run basically. Existing, code with, little or no modifications. On top of that so. You let, takes it to the next level says if, we could, redesign. The, EVM, and make. A better virtual, machine it's, let's. Go for, things, to go wrong and what. Could we do alright, let's, go back to the drawing board but let's try still, to be able to support, as much, of the existing, software. For example written in solidity. That new machine. That's, what la, achieves. And. Then. Who, doesn't smile oh they. Pose. A different question they are saying okay. Let's forget about all this existing. Software let's, forget, about being, backwards. Compatible. If. You can go back to the drawing board and even. What we know now. Build. Something, which. Is as safe as secure, as, future. 'full as we want, it to be what. Would that look like and. That's. What Plutus, and mallow are about so, really we, are addressing three. Different questions with these three different technologies. And from. A user's. Point of view it. Also addresses, three. Different use cases namely, well. I want, to just run, my existing, validity code, versus. Well. I want, to reuse, my solidity, part but I'm happy to change some things too, well, yes I'm going to rewrite my application. In Pluto so if it's a new application, that is why not writing right, from the start so, now. That leaves bluetooth, and mallow and they are really complementary.

What. Pluto, is what the Plutus platform, provides, is a general-purpose. Contract. Development, platform, so, whatever. You. Idea. You could come up with that. You might want to write. A disability, application for, Ankara no you, can do this included. Mal. Oh yeah. That's, great that's a lot of flexibility, but it comes at, a cost the. Cost being that. You basically have to be a software engineer and. Developer. And, experienced, developer, to use Pluto's. Malo. Comes. With the premise saying, well there are certain domains for example financial, applications. Which, are obviously, interesting. In nope. Lopsang so. For. Just looking at financial, applications. Can we make. A language, which, is simple, simpler. Actually so. Simple, that somebody, who is not a software, developer, somebody, whoreson domain, expert. Somebody. Who works in finance can. Use this language without, having, to resort to, getting. A strange enira to do the coding and. Our. Answer to that is, yes, with Malo you this, is possible, it's a domain-specific language. You don't have to be a software engineer to, use it what. You're giving up is the flexibility, because now you're restricted, to the this one domain. Financial. Contract but. Within, that domain it's. It's, a lot simpler, to. Our write-ups contracts. It's a it's a trade-off between generality. And ease, of use so, I think having, power is good. Is. It okay if I oversimplify. This for a moment to. Make sure I understand, it and Sebastian, feel free to chime in so. Based on everything you just said, dr., Chakravarti. You. Have these three different you, got the K EVM the, yahwah and Plutus. So, let's say for example to. Oversimplify on, my, laptop right here I am running a Daedalus. Full note right here in my laptop and. The. Transaction. Comes in from the internet and. My. Computer, recognizes this, transaction, and says that transaction, goes to datalist full note then. It goes into Daedalus, and Dallas, says oh this, is a, aetherium. Type transaction. So I'm going to run it through the K EVM, or. This. Is a, Plutus. Based piece, of code so I'm going to take, that through Plutus. And it gets processed, or. It's a financial transaction, based on Marlow and Dayla says I know what that is that's, a Marlow thing and I'm going to gate it through a different piece.

Of Code and it will get processed, is that the general I did or did I get that wrong. It's. It's actually simpler, so what happens on the blockchain is, still, all the same transactions. So. The. Technology. You use to create the transactions, doesn't determine. What. Kind of transaction, you're using the transaction, is always the same it. Is how do you write your pout so for example, if, you have, a PMI lo contract, in your wallet and you have a polluted contract, so meaning, of contract, with mean pluto's and the contract, with mean Malo both, in your wallet they, will see the same transactions. Whether. A reactor, transaction, or not depends, on whether, the transaction, is part of the contract they are controlling, or not but, it's still underneath. The same translation so I think about it, as. Follows so, on your computer, right now you, have a lot of software applications. You've, got a Mac so, some of them will be implementing objective-c, apples. All programming, language if you like and some of them are going to be implemented in Swift, application. New programming, language now. To. The computer to you Mac they look the same it's all the same machine code but, one piece, of machine code one, bundle was. Created. By the objective-c, compiler and, the. Other. Application. Bundle was created, by the Swift compiler so. To the machine it's the same code, still. Different, programming, languages, used, so, it's the same between using, Milan leutis, and. Sections. On the chain the, unchanged. Scripting, code is the, same type, of cow the same type of transactions. But. Ebell, Appa who, created. Them creating, with different ways now. Between a a VM and Ella it's. More. Subtle, because. As I'm. Sure you know the. Padano. Will. Have side chains and, there are two types of chains as ESL. Chain a settlement layer which is a chain which is currently, active and then there will be CL. Chains which are, computers. And. Pluto's. And the third row side Milo can actually, run on also, of these chains where, is que, Ella, will only be able to run. On. CLS.

Chain So on the computer, ends and the reason for this is, exactly. The theorem. Heritage. Which. Uses, a different letter model, and what, katana katana uses. Is called, UTX outlet which is the same as what bitcoin losses, as, theorem, uses a so-called account, based model, and. EVM. And as a result he, EVM. And ela are. Partial. To this part account, based model as, Plutus is or flexible, in this card, thank. You for clarifying that thanks, a lot I. Also. Wanted to add an. Additional question, so, say. A financial, institution, starts. Using, a. Smart, contract with in yellow and a. Year, later they, realized that they want to pour, all their smart contracts, over to Plutus since. They're written in there. They're written in different. They're, different smart. Contracting, platforms, how, is how difficult will it be to port the smart contract over from yellow over, to Plutus or Marlowe or will they have to start over again and. Start developing in Haskell. So. The. That. It's. A short term and the long term answer, so the flow time at the moment the bluetooths, platform. Requires. You, to use. Haskell. To to write the contract. This. Is not inherently. Necessary. We. And. Develop, compilers, for other, programming, languages, also targeting, pootis that's technically, totally, feasible, at. The moment we are not doing this why because. Writing. A, food, chain for our language is a lot of work and. To. Do one, properly, first before we do the next one. So. In the sense you're. Currently, you, you, have to rewrite. Your code into ethical if you want to use it on Pluto's. Hence. The. Narottam. Aspect. Of it. If. Either. RHK or somebody, else decides. To provide. Support. For different programming, language target in Bluetooth then maybe. There's. Going to be less, rewriting, involved. Okay. That. Makes sense that's that's good to hear so. Going, back to something earlier that you said I was watching a video that, IOH Kay released on YouTube I don't, know a few days ago maybe it was longer than that I'm. Losing track of time but, basically, you, were saying something to the extent of you, shouldn't add anything to the system, after it's done it has to be built into the system and you. Know I'm just gonna go out and say it coming, from me you know aetherium is an example of a blockchain that, is adding to the system after, it's already been created and they have their own issues so what. Exactly can go wrong with, the approach of not. Building it correctly, the first time, how how, difficult, it is it can you conceptualize, how, difficult, it is to change. A blockchain once, it's already implemented. Once it's already live how. Difficult, is it to add those, minutia, that may. May. Affect, the direction of that block. Chain or of that crypto project. So. I get. You. Referring, to the part about. Safety. And security yeah. Yeah. So. This. Is I think, advice. Which is even, when, it comes to computer, security not, just block, chains but whenever, security. And safety. Of. Crucial. Importance, as they clearly, are here. Then. The. Fundamental. Advice. Of people who these. Systems. Which which. Construct. It with a particular, eye toward safety and security is, you, have to think about safety and security from, the start it's nothing which you can, retrofit. Onto. A system, why. Is this because. It's. Saved in security. Is usually, about not. Being able to do things at the end of the day. Security. Can be about. Cannot, take. Your funds and less. I'm you this, is something where, the, system has to prevent. Me doing something. Now. The problem, is when, you built a system where, you can do a lot of insecure. And unsafe. Things, then. You can fill it after. The fact you can I add. Roadblocks. Right. Block here so I can't do this one thing another. Roadblock oh you can't do the same thing now ah, and there's a third one let's build another roadblock so this is what we you, see in when systems are being patched so we.

Whenever We find a problem oh we, add, a barrier and and, that's really what's in happening with here and right every big exploit, oh we. Have to add something so that this exploit can't happen anymore but. The thing is well. How. Do you ever know there's no further exploit right. I mean. Indeed. Not just block chains if you look at other. Software, on your computer as well very, often it's, in, a not very stable. State when you get the first version and then as problems. Come. Up being. Patched and that, way you, can prevent the, old problems, from recurring. But there will always be new problems, again so. That's, obviously something which, is. A never-ending. Game. Back, the model so. The, question is. How. Can we do better, the, way we do better is. By. Thinking. About, the. Design of, the system, and what. You can do and not do, and what, you allow, certain. Actors, to do or not do. When. You design, the system in a mathematical. Way, so. Obviously, looking at each fold at time. You. Only look at the faults you discovered, but you you, don't know anything about all the foils you have our look so. How can you know, something, about the, thing you don't know this is where humanity. For a long time has resorted to mathematics. Mathematics. Is a tool. To. Formalize. These. Days even formalized, to degree that we can use, a computer, to check that we did the formalization, consistent. Manner using of, assistance, to. Formalize. What can. Be and cannot be done with, the system then, you have an a complete. Description. Of the entire, functionality. Of the system in one piece and. Once. You've got this formulation. Then you can start to ask, questions and. Right, third formal, proofs about what's. Possible, or not, possible for. Example things, like. Nobody. Except. The owner of. Particular. Set of funds can ever accept, these funds, particular. Property, you want your system to have and if, you have a formalization. Of, the functionality, the system you can try. A mathematical. Proof to show that this is true always. And you, don't look at, the. Individual. Exploits, you look, at all possible. Uses, of the system at the same time and this rental relative, to not look at the individual. Problem, but. Look at all. Possible.

Uses Of the system, this is something you can only achieve. Using. Math. That's. What we are doing we. Use math. We are doing ourselves, more. Importantly, we are using math, which, has been done over, literally. The. Last tens. And hundreds, of years by. Materials. Who have worked on mathematical, logic. Mathematically. Totally, computational. Carefully. And. We are reusing their, results, to design our system, and that's. The thing you can't, add, after, the fact it's, something. Which is integral. Part of the design process does, that make sense, that. Absolutely does make sense and it's really good to hear that there's some pedigree, behind, the design of the system that, you're using like, you're saying math that's been worked on over centuries, the. Cryptography. That you use, I don't, remember exact the dates on everything, but, it dates back into, the 70s, and 80s and, you're, building from. The ground up like, you guys you've. Built the. Language, first like Haskell then, you built the languages, that are part of that language such as Plutus, and the, building started at the absolute, foundation of. The ones and zeros of the computer, it's, not like you're just copying and pasting code, from. Other. Areas. And patching, it all together and making, this little Frankenstein, monster, out of the code you know it sounds really good and in reference to Philippe's, question, about. The. I've. Heard an analogy we're trying, to change out a blockchain, while, it's in run is like trying to change the oil in your car while you're driving down. The freeway you, know it's, it's Aria. It's. Already going I. Think. That's a great analogy record. Yeah. One thing I want to ask is so. One, part of Plutus is the. Separation. Between, the. Hassle, quote the, hassle code and the, Plutus TX. Code and so, in, your presentations, during police fest you're, talking about how you wanted, Plutus to, be able to represent the, on Cinque opponents, and the, off gang component all in. Kind of one system, so you touched, briefly on this, episode, but about how, a, part, of that is Haskell, right, and that will go into the, pootis core and then. I think, the Haskell part will end up being on the off chain the police catch on the being on the on chain is that, correct and can't tell us more about. You're, saying hassle could be replaced by the programming languages. What, about Buddhist yaks and how kind of all that fits in. Yeah. Then, that's a great Christian, thank you very much. It. Is it's, the, reason I like the question personally is because I think this is this. Is one of the rulli big, contributions. Technically. That you're. Making with blues if. You're looking at say. A theorem. Then when. You want, to implement anything, and of course you write solidity, for. The online components, but then you write JavaScript. Or. The, code that runs with the user's bullet or, what, I call the off train code and. This. It just makes. For a rather complicated, involve. Development, process, or what we are doing with Brutus as you've described, we are recreating, the two we use one language we use Haskell and, all. The code is in one. Program. Like. This. With our modules. Of course but it's one on code, base and, in. One language and, the. Way we achieve this is we use something. Technology. From, from programming, English research called meta programming, so. Meta programming is, a way where you write programs. Manipulating. Other programs, and what. We think specifically, here, is that, off train code the. Code which runs in the bullet, manipulates. The untrained code the. Code which runs on the blockchain why. Because. The code in the wallet has to be transactions. And the. Code which runs the blockchain, well.

That's The code which is associated. Comes. With the transactions, so we have this natural two level hierarchy and, that's what we are cutting here and, see. You said the, language. In which you write the unten code which comes with the transactions, we are calling these fluted TX. Technically. It's a it's basically a subset, vessel, so, both, letters are has only, one is restricted. Why. Because, on the blockchain there are only a limited amount, of, things you can do, without. Collaborating. With the of training out and. So. This, is how we get this integrated, system, and. So. It. Is not sister. Code. Developer. Writes this, is not the code gets, executed because. Before. Execute, this, is all compiled. Now. Off. Train car is being compiled, to JavaScript or. Web assembly and Bluetooth, the Xcode the, code which is associated, with, transactions. And goes on the blockchain is compiled. Into a, new, core. Language which we developed, which we call do to score. Now. Bluetooth. Core code, on. The, train and the. JavaScript. Of F assembly code of chain, could. Be generate. By different compiler, from, a different programming, language, so suppose. Somebody. Would. Start. A new project tomorrow. To. Write. Some, code for say, Scala. That's. A, hybrid. Functional, object English. Built. Around, Java. JVM. Ecosystem, um they. Could take the same approach they could compile. Scala code to JavaScript of Epis empty they could identify, a. Subset. Of Java, which they want to use for the untrained computations, compiled, that to blue to score and they, they. Could generate code which could. Be. Bluetooth contracts, you write in Haskell so, on the train it doesn't matter anymore whether used Allah, or Haskell or, what, have you to. Implement, this code because after, it's been compared, to, Pluto's call for the untrained staff and, assembly. Or JavaScript, for the offline stuff it can all in principle. Communicate. So. That's totally possible in the same way if you like I mean, II theorem, in reality, everybody's, using solidity, but, there are some other compilers around, or, Lisp light language, and, so on which can also, generate EBM, bytecode, and at, the end of the day how, you generate, the event by code doesn't matter as long as end, up with a VM I thought you can run on theorem. Similar. Here as, long. As you end up is true to score and some. Offline component. Meeting. The transactions, including. This blue to score it doesn't matter. Technically. From what. Language. You generate, that code, it's just that we chose Haskell, because. We think it, is very well suited for that task and. Because. It's the language which is used to implement katana, in the first place. Thank. You for that very thorough explanation. It was a little bit over my head I hope Sebastian, understood it Sebastian did that make sense to you yeah, it's play make sense I think it's a really great system and so. You're basically, we're saying is that it for, the haunting.

Component It'll be police corps so it doesn't, quite. Matter what language you write in as long as it compels absolutist core then everybody's happy and then, when you're writing, the the front end you the, developer will have to choose oh maybe JavaScript makes more sense to me or webassembly it makes more sense to me and the, developer, kind of kind of choose that. Client. Program. Language to best suit their needs and so, we can imagine maybe in the future more. Program, lanes will be added on top of JavaScript assembly. And we'll, have like a very diverse ecosystem. For. Different. Ways, and places you can deploy, your. Client portion of your police code -, okay. Thanks Sebastian in the mid well and so and basically like many other computer programs I have. To do nothing, special in my computer like you were saying dr. Chakravarti, as long, as I'm running Daedalus, the data comes in and out it's processed, and no. Biggie right. You. Don't have to do anything no. We. Do the work for you, right. On I like that I, have. A question for you Manuel so I, was looking at your, your, your Twitter bio and, then I was on the tweet do, website. So you mentioned, it earlier and, basically. You. Are a. Proponent of functional, programming languages. Languages. On tweak and one. Of the sentences, on the tweet dot IO website, you can go and check it out, it. Literally says we turn moon shots into products, that work so. Based. On that sentence. Is there. A particular. Use case that you see because it seems like tweak that IO is looking, to. Create. These enterprise-level, solutions I'm, not sure if they're going to be using Plutus or Marlowe and future or their, even in that realm but. As a, flutist. Developer. Are there certain use cases that you see for polluters right now that are not Illustrated. Out not, that. Are not Illustrated, right now for example I, was, looking at a sample, interest, rate swap contract, on the polluter style, website are, there additional, use, cases that you see right now. So. We, are really, in the process of. Looking. At a. Whole, range of different. Potential. Applications. And. We. Are starting from the financial, because with. Financial.

Applications, And that's also why maillot focuses, on financial contracts. It's. It's, I'm. Not saying everything is clear but there's a lot of clarity around what you want to do on a blockchain and there's, people. Come up with new ideas all, the time but there's definitely already, a core set of things which, we know we absolutely want. Outside. Of that financial domain. It gets, a lot more speculative. Just because the technology, is so young I mean there are a lot of things, which. Are of great interest. Just. To name, for example, tracking, real world resources. May, be things. Like real. Estate or. Resources. Throughout. A supply chain. For. Example. There's. A lot of. Regulation. Around how how, good. Can. Be used and has to be regrown. And so on so you. Could imagine, you. Sequence, the DNA of. When. You cut the trees down. We caught them on a blockchain and then track the. Lifecycle of how, this raw, material is turned into products, and then when you get a product which else, it claims to be eco-friendly. From. Weaker. On forests you can check that nobody, cut down. Tree. In a rainforest, lying. To you and selling. You this world's product so, I think that a lot of scope for for. These kind of applications we, go completely, out of the financial domain, but. I also think it's really I. Like. To compare. The situation now to. Something, like the, the.com. Boom. I want, the Internet there's. A lot. Of wild ideas and. Then. There are also a lot of people who say this. Is all nonsense. Because. There are a lot of people who try to scam. Other people, and so it's coming. To this conclusion. That everybody's, just doing that it's, also something which happens but. It's as, we see on, boom where there was a lot of hype and a lot of. Sifting. Through ideas not, because. People were, on purpose misleading, somebody else but you have to try all these ideas before you know which works, but, if you look at it from. Our position, now we, know this. Our technology, it has transformed. The. Life of a, huge. Population, part. Of the population, of the net I mean. All, the things you do with your mobile phone these days are at, the end based on on a lot of this communication technology. Was, pioneered, at the time and I. Think, with. Distributed, ledger simple options we are in a similar situation at, the moment people, people. Are sifting, through a lot of. Ideas. And some of them being crazy and. It. Takes, a while to find, out what, works what doesn't work and we need these, systems. Like Madonna and, Pluto's, in place in, order for to, be able to experiment. But. What, works and what doesn't work so I. Think. That there, are going to be a lot of transformative. Technologies. But. Even. If it seems Catholic. Crazy at. The moment I'm. Sure, this will be sorted out and when we look at it what. 10, 15 years then. Then. We'll be much smarter and we say ah why didn't, you immediately. Know it's these five things which will change everything. But. We don't know now. Yeah. And to, put it put, it a little bit of a scale you, know you reference the dot-com, boom and I've, been around a couple of years and.

The. I don't we're, not like we're in the middle of dot-com, boom I just remember in the 1980s, I used to use dial-up. Technology. To get to connect to the internet and the internet wasn't even functional, until you did that first, and. The dot-com, boom did not come until like six or eight years later I'm thinking oh nine T 85-86, we were dialing up to the internet yeah things like CompuServe, and the internet was just being built the infrastructure. Was just, coming, together and, the, dot-com. Boom did not kick in until about nineteen ninety two ninety three is you know best my memory serves I, think. We're still, like. In the very early stage in the dot-com, boom we're not in the middle of it we're still just barely getting past the dial-up to where people are actually connecting, the internet and using the wallets we're at the very beginning, of what we call the doc bump dot-com. Boom in my opinion, in reference, to blockchain, I mean I don't, know if you think the same way that's how I see it no. I totally. Agree yeah, yeah I think, your your. Explanation, of the timeline all your your energy. With, that timeline I, totally. Agree with it yeah you're, still at, the point. Where, we are establishing. The basic infrastructure. Right. So. Yeah so, the craziness hasn't, even begun yet I. Agree. I totally agree we're, States it's still building the network that, whatever, that boom, is gonna be yeah we're still very early way way early in the game alright, so when, you're talking earlier, you mentioned how, Plutus, will be able to run both. On the SL, and the CL and as you're also saying the SL, runs. On the UT EXO system. Whereas, the competition, layer the CL runs. On the, accounting, based system so during, pootis fest it was all focused on this. Summit, layer and how to work with UT EXO and now whole system will. Are we going, to expect should. We expect to lose the Kamel first on the SL and then, there'll be some some sort of gap as you. Figure out how to move, that model into, the CL. And the best way possible or, it will be some sort of trick with, maybe the chimeric, ledger a paper that which get put out brow, translates, UTX, own accounting this bundle will just be like a you. Know taking an input of their kind system where we were nothing much needs to change yeah. So it's correct. That the, SL, the settlement, layer is based on the you takes all model how, about with CL. Leia. Always. Sound like there's one layer in the second layer but really, in reality there's, the settlement, layer then. There are many different seals, will. Email decide change that one way to scale, the blockchain and of. These. Side. Chains CL. Trends, they, can be you. Take so or account based or in, fact as you already indicated, she Merrick so support, poles and. We. Expect. To have all, of these variants, we expect, to have account based and we expect, to have you, take so based sergeant's, so. We. Focus, that. That's just to clarify that. CL. Isn't, restricted. To, use an account based model it has the option to also use account based so, it there's more flexibility, there and that's, the whole point about the SIA so maybe, I can inject it here because maybe not everybody, knows. About this distinction, so, why, do we have different layers. It's. Again a matter of, security. And it's a nice. Way to illustrate, how, if you don't design security in from the beginning is really hard to add it on later so the premise here is that the settlement, layer this, is where. Everybody's. ADA is. At the moment so. We don't want anything to grow wrong. With the settlement layer we wanted to be really. Safe really secure, this table, so. It, also means we want to be careful with the scripting, capabilities. Under settlement layer because, as we've seen on other options it's pretty easy, to mess that up so. Hence, the, idea is to have side, chains compute. Layer, spy. Planes where. We can be more flexible if we can have, more, flexible. Models. We can have for, example, account. Based models, in aramaic. Mixed models. We. Can allow. Longer running smart contracts, for example so. We get, over it because the stake in those chains is lower and, that's. The reason for the separation and, that's really something which was, in article, a right from the beginning and, and. That's why we have this added flexibility, on. The CL side now. As. Far, as flutist goes we. Have. Made. A special effort to make sure it, it, works on you take so it works great on you takes all so we can put it on settlement, yeah but, we can at the same time put it on you. Ticks or sidechain. Clsi. Drain right, away.

Without. Doing. Any work at, all and. Then. If you, want to run it on an account, a strain, for, example, to interact, with. Say. Yellow then. As. You're saying one. Option. And this is certainly the initial, option is, to. To. Use it America Chang. Some. Translation. In account based and. You. Takes opus has, to be present in. An, account based side train anyway, because, the whole point about the site rain is that you can transfer, and. Between. The settlement, layer and aside, say in the CL train, but. Because, if these two trains use two different models one, being account based the other one being you, takes or based and. At least a point where you have these cross train transfers, you. Need some, sort of translation, and again. Just. Using the trimeric letter seems. Like a very attractive option. Yeah that. Was a really, good answering that question it kind of sparks a lot of a lot of more thoughts on that I've. Seen Sebastian's, video on chimeric, Ledger's where he did a really good job explaining that so if anyone ever has any problems you know with what. We mean by chimeric, check out Sebastian's, video and also. Since, the compute, layer is so isolated. From the settlement, layer if it, were to ever malfunction. Could the settlement layer just keep on running in the compute layer will can be patched. Or upgraded, or corrected. Without. Major. Issues is that how that works. Exactly. Think, about it like a space even, if, you have a space station and. You. Want to make sure your command, center in the space station always is. Safe and secure and. If. Say. It's some. Space. Junk. Floats. Into one, of the peripheral, parts. Of the station you want to be able to shut one. Big door and. Keep. The rest of the station especially, the command center, saved way and that's exactly how side chains work the. There. Is a. Certain. Amount of stake which is transferred, onto the side chain and whatever. Happens, even if the side line completely. Blows up there's. Never, more liability. Than that initial, state and that's, guaranteed by, the math that. Our very, smart orifice. Didn't. Or have you invented, all. Right thanks I get it now cool, I think that was a great analogy Space Station is a great analogy a lot of these crypto projects, out there they, don't build a modular Space Station it's just one room so if something crashes, everyone's. Going down no one's gonna make it back so I. Think, that's a great analogy I wanted. To ask a quick question I, know this is more probably of a personal. Question as to what. Projects, you're working on but I've. Noticed that started, haskell for mac and you did a my. Check the github and everything like that and, you. Did a live coding for a flappy, bird clone. In haskell. So if anyone's, familiar with the game flappy bird I. Know, it was all the rage back I, don't know a few years ago and, then you, also did in your github, something. Called big pixel which was designed. For Minecraft games and I. Noticed. That you're, interested in gaming so do you see and Charles, a spoke of gaming, solutions, within Cardno in the future so do you see any gaming solutions. For. Card ah no and you see that they could provide some, value-added. Substance. To the gaming industry. So. I mean, I think that in, several, discussions. About. Kind. Of. Having. Aims, on, a block plane where basically the blockchain. Motivates. The parties, and you have it, can have a distributed. Game. Without. Any. Central server, which is like the game master, or something like that and I think that's that's. It's. Like often, with gaming, on one hand you can of course say well it's just a cable hook yes. But, it's through, play that. I mean children, we learn through play and, I. Think, as grown-ups, we still can learn, through, playing, and. Thinking. About these. Games. Really. Is. A way of a kind of exploring. At the, space of possibilities. Of interactions, so what kind of assurances can. You provide, in the game in. A fully distributed. Decentralized. Game. In. The first place I mean, without. Adoption. You could say well there's no assurance everybody. Can cheat so it's boring. The game becomes boring if, everybody.

Can't Read so, now now you've got this entity, which provides, centralized. Trust, now. What can you do with this trust what kind of rules what kind of games. You establish. Even. Even. The trust as you've got and the rules that you can implement, in on the block plane in the first place and, I, think this is the really interesting, research. Strong. To. Really. Understand, what what, he. What. The possibilities, what the scope was. Of. This, technology in the first place and, yeah. So that's, my, take. On it what, kinds of games will we get out of it I'm. Not sure because I think this is what we really try to understand, at the moment is. What. CAI what are the type of rules you can enforce, in the first place and, it. Probably for game you don't want for every single move have, a transaction, on the blockchain that would make it a quite costly game. So. It has to be you have to be better you have to be able to, do. Some work off train, but. In a way that, everybody can verify, that nobody, cheated and this. Is very similar in concept to things like payment. Channels, and state channels, and all this kind of things and so, again I think it's a great fun. Playful. Way, to explore. What the scope here is. In. A in, a less serious environment, I think. It's great to I saw a video from Lars Bruni as on the poker and most, of the logic. Would run off chain the transaction, would run on chain something, to that effect and you know if one of those games that you put out there was like a casino, that. Would be a good, example of one. Way doing it I like to gamble but I only like to gamble in small amounts like gamble small loose marks I'm not very good at gambling but I do enjoy it so. Yeah that'd be a good place to start I guess that would be considered adapt, I guess would be the casino and then on the. Compute. And settlement layers where, the actual transaction takes place right there kind of like compartmentalized. Yeah. So with, these, steps. The. E you. Have code running. In the wallets of the, various. Participants, so. It's, not. Like the clay you know, in the. Classic client-server. Architecture which, we use of the web these days as its central. Server which runs everything in the end and with, the app there's, no such thing but all, these different, copies. Of the same code running on, everybody's. Person and they communicate, through the blockchain and through that they. Ain't bility, to trust, each other although. Everybody's, using, their own machine, yes. Said. Great. Great answer great answer so Rick we're moving into the reddit questions. Before. We start the reddit questions, we were speaking earlier about how. Early we are in blockchain. And just. To segue, into that if you've, noticed Rick's, shirt right now it's, when taco so, who, could imagine that after all. These years of. The Internet this is what it you know who, could have who could have envisioned that use case like 10-15, years before that, Rick would be able to buy a shirt that says when taco so that's exactly where we are in blockchain, so a great shirt Rick and. Let's. Move on to the reddit questions I know we have a few so let's. Get those out of the way all. Right I got the reddit questions now the wind taco do. You want to hear a little bit more about that. You, know about taco you know how you know how and everybody, said not. Everybody but often on the trading channels, people will in a joking way say, when. Lambeau when, moon or when. Shopping cart when you're in a bear markets like when shop sorry.

Let's, Go downhill this. Is my version when, taco this is my card. I know blue with, car donna white my, card I know taco. When, I get my taco. You'll, get your Lambo, if I can go to Taco Bell and use my ada card and, by. That taco with, my ADA card in the United States, y'all. Will be driving your Lambos. Fair. Enough. So. Ready. Questions. First. Question is from reddit user RJM. Coin and this is a very, well-constructed, question. So let me kind of read through this and I will process it here. And so what, are GM coin asks, is if. You. Could go back in time to. 2015. And, based. On what you know now. What. Would you say to Charles. And Jeremy, about language, architecture and. How would you explain, the state of crypto, as of. January, 2019. To them so there's a lot of questions, in there let's, assume, they. Would think you're crazy, to. Claim you're from the future. So, basically, what, would you say to Charles, and Jeremy about language. Architecture, back. In 2015. So. To. Select think, that's a very, simple question because, I think child. And Jeremy were spot-on. About language, architecture, I. Think. The. Foresight, to. To. Run. With. SPS. Implementation. Language and to. -. I mean clue to envision, Plutus, right from the start as something, centered, around the core functional, programming, things, like a lambda calculus, and so on. This. Is really still the, essence. Today. So, in. The sense they had they, had the right neck they. Don't. Need, any, major. Adjustment. In. My opinion, so, yeah. I owe. Kudos. To them I would say yeah. I look I love that answer because it's nothing you can say if I could go back in time what would I do well I'd say good job right. Yeah. I think. Yeah. I'm. Sure as this mathematical, training had something to do with it, all. Right all right thank you for that and it's funny I like the good humor in the answers there that's great all, right so our next question is from reddit. User Rob corn and. He. Asks. As the. Plutus, team is consistently. Working, on updating the language, as seen. In the github repo Rob is a engineer, who's also the, Cleo, Cleo. Dot one instructor. So. As the Plutus team is constantly, working on updating language, as seen on the github, repo, when. Can we expect to, have regular. Official. Releases, with, version numbering, included, this. Is going to be important, over the long term especially when creating educational. Content. So. I. Completely. Agree. We. It is important, that we clearly communicate, what. Different. Versions. And phone and it is something. Around. Which we've already had internal, discussions, of how can, can. Do that and how we can communicate, it, to users in a way that is, easy. To access and. Also. Frankly. Everything. We are doing it. Was pointed out is on github and. Really. Open. Not only open we would be actually super. Glad about any feedback, so any suggestions. For. Yeah. Also, on, technical, matters but also on this kind of release. Process. Metas are, super welcome so please. Open. It, up, and and let us know about any. Questions. Blooms suggestions. We. Are, really, happy to listen to opinions. Of. The. Users that's I think very important, and to. Get back, to the question itself. At. The moment we haven't, been. Very serious about versioning, mainly, because a, moment. The Bluetooth, playgrounds, which people can, play. With if they go to. For. Example polluted. Festered io that's the for UL they. Can find links to the, backgrounds, and that's where you can write, your Bluetooth, smart contract couldn't run them you can see. Having whether they do what you want, that's, really. Place. Where you can music at the moment but it's not life on the main net yet so. As, a result, the. Version. Isn't quite, as important, yet it. Was no, this writing. Production. Contract. Tutors code at. The moment.

But. II. We. Will certainly. Communicate. When, user facing. Changes happen, I mean lot of the changes on github and not immediately. Resulting. In a change to. The way to how. To write your flutist, contracts, most of the things are internal. Improvements. Or, additions, of new things but not changing, system, things. So. But. When we change, when we update the playgrounds, when functionality. Changes then we will make sure to to. Suppose. That there. And. To, make sure that when, people for, example, use. Code, which, worked, in an old version doesn't. Working and you version anymore, that you get an, error, message which indicates, that not just because, you you're wrong but, if. You link to update. What. So. Yeah. That's. Our. Current thinking, we, go when, we are further in the process and getting. To the point yeah. We. Go. On test net and. In the minute then at the point of course that. All will become much. More for it, will be very explicit, and will always be at ants now DSL, or changes. Alright, thank you dr. Chakravarti, and thank you to our reddit users rgm coin and, Robert. We appreciate your inputs, and your questions thank you very much, so, that's it for any questions Philippe, I think you have a stack, of papers to show the audience don't, you yes, I do yes I do. So. Here is the stack of papers, I know I made that YouTube, video. This is all the papers that can be found on the IO H K dot IO portal. You just go to the paper section and I. Printed, all of these it's double-sided. I'm not wait, I know people are gonna say it's a waste but, I'm getting a binder, and I'm putting it in my room and every time they release a new paper I am going to print it out like this new paper that came out that Sebastian, tweeted. The other day I don't. Know if everyone can see it but it was comparing, block times for, different consensus. Algorithms, so. Sebastian. I don't know if you wanted to add because you did respond, in a tweet I, don't. Have all the papers printed because not all the papers are are there, and I. Didn't, include some papers so the stack should be actually a lot higher, so. It's. It's very heavy 8 pounds, 8 pounds I, weighed it out so. Yes. So anyone. You, know I know there's a whole, debacle going, on right now with the theory um and then their delay this, is what you need to do to build something correctly, you know you should be writing novels this is what gives people the instructions, animals to build it correctly so. Yeah. I don't know if anyone wanted to add anything to that but, yeah yeah, fully but I'm. Glad you're saving that because I am a tree hugger and. We're. Gonna save this for, the history. Books and continue. To build that stack, higher, and higher and, you know how guys are you know they like to measure things and compare things and so. If. Any, of you else anyone, else out there in front with different, crypto currencies, if you would like to send in your papers, to measure up and see how it stacks up against, the card, I know feel free to do so we'll, leave you a link and if you make personal, contact you, know we'll, give you a location, to mail those papers, and that sound good Philippe that, sounds great you know I've looked at other cryptocurrency, projects, I can't find any papers, so when I'm comparing it it's, hard to compare something with nothing so, but, if you do have a cryptocurrency project, out there that you're concerned, about send, over the papers and we will compare and I, have a tape measure we.

Can Weigh it we can we, can put the tape measure up and so it a lot, of these papers they have been peer reviewed and, they've been submitted, to, the top-of-the-line, crypto. Conferences, so they're just not papers, just being written from some random person in their, bedroom, people, are actually looking at these papers and critiquing. Them and it's the industry, leaders that are doing that so there's there's, definitely a process involved, in this oh you. Mean industry, leaders are reviewing, those papers, they just you just don't post it on the internet and your. Buddies hit like and exactly, yeah exactly. Peer. Review doesn't mean that you take it to your dad and you, say dad did I write a good paper, no it's someone independent. That has probably been working in this industry their, entire lives that, is probably more academically. Advanced. In that, field, than the person actually writing the paper in some cases and they're, looking, and critiquing. Every single thing that you submit so, they need to definitely be, peer reviewed in, order, for them to have any substance you can't just write papers and say, that. It's, correct because, who can verify I can't, verify I'm not a software engineer I need someone to to. Verify that's, actually, within this industry, so. I want to thank Manuel's two for joining. Us today thanks. For the opportunity, to speak to you we really appreciate your time the. Card I know effect podcast, we're growing and we're really, getting a lot of all stars on this on this, podcast, so. Thanks, Sebastian Rick as well and I'm going to. Keep. On submitting your questions to the card ah no effect at gmail.com we, we read everything and thanks for your support and, with. That being said many, well you have the the final words if you want to say something yeah thank you very much for having me it's it's really great to get. The opportunity, and talk to you it was a lot of fun and I, hope. The. Listeners will get, something, useful. Out of it I also. Want to encourage everybody to, have. A look at the Pluto fest I all, website. And. There's. A lot of interesting information there, there are videos being posted of. Pluto's. Festevents they're, not yet. All the videos from all the talks but they are being added one by one and then. Also. Fewer, technically. Inclined them then, please have a look at the Bluetooth playgrounds, and try. To do sout for yourself and then, let us know how it goes and we. Truly appreciate your, feedback thank, you very much. Thank. You doctor appreciate it thank. You bye, everyone.

2019-01-25 18:17

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