Did the metaverse die before it even lived? | Ep. 25

Did the metaverse die before it even lived? | Ep. 25

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with Facebook and meta announcing new  initiatives to integrate generative AI   tools into its applications as well as  layoffs within its metaverse teams it   appears as if their interest in the  metaverse is fading is it time to   declare the metaverse dead and buried we'll  explore this topic next on today in Tech today in Tech I'm Keith Shaw joining me on today's  show are two experts on the happenings of the   metaverse Dan Roberts is the editor-in-chief  of decrypt.com and one of the hosts of its GM   podcasts also joining me is make Mike Mason he's  the global head of Technology at thoughtworks at   canadian-based technology consultant C welcome  gentlemen thanks for having me you already waved   yeah all right uh let's just kind of just start  us off here uh Dan is the metaverse dead yes or no   it's not dead but I'm not convinced it was ever  Fully Alive yet so can't be dead when it didn't   yet get off the ground I think okay Mike what  do you think is the metaverse dead yes or no   I think it's not dead but it also depends on  what you mean when you say the metaverse and   that's part of the problem here yeah and I and  I I will agree with that in terms of I think the   umbrella term as metaverse which then turned  into some sort of Big Blob of everybody wanted   to jump in and use their technology for that  it's it's you know that's probably going to   go away as we focus on those individual  Technologies uh Mike you wrote a blog   post that discussed uh sort of the the  three pillars of what maybe people are   considering parts of the metaverse you you  want to go over like those three categories   because I think that'll help kind of frame  what we mean when we talk about metaverse   sure thing and I think a lot of people what they  mean when they when they talk about metaverse is   is they mean kind of the future of the internet  and how things are going to evolve and it depends   what your vision is for the future of the internet  what you think might be in the metabus so the the   first kind of metaverse is is what I'd call  Zuckerberg's embodied internet so that's the   Ready Player one uh you know everything's  3D High Fidelity immersive experiences uh   avatars in your living room you know Holograms  in your living room all that kind of kind of   stuff that's the first one the next uh possible  interpretation is the web 3's ownership economy   uh where you've got an internet where anybody  can transfer things of value to each other uh   peer-to-peer transfers kind of crypto uh nfts all  of that kind of underlying stuff and the thinking   there is that really for people to get involved  in these virtual words worlds there needs to be   kind of a medium of Exchange in a a reason to to  get involved in it and then the third competing   uh vision for for The Meta versus what I would  call the industrial metaverse so that's kind of   commercial applications where you're doing things  like digital twins You're Building you know a a   virtual representation of your factory uh and then  working on that in a virtual sense of of course   lots of factories are automated these days and run  by software and so if you're able to simulate all   of that then potentially you can do useful work  within uh you know a 3D simulated environment   and then transfer that into the real world in  that industrial context yeah and and Dan do you   do you agree with sort of those three pillars  or are there some others that that we might   add to that definition yeah I think I think that's  a useful um you know parsing but I also think I've   heard people make the case that a number of things  we already use technically are the metaverse you   know when you're on social media you know you're  you're living your life as your online identity   and there's something appealing and alluring  about that much simpler definition the idea that   any place in which you are living as your online  identity or Persona which we all have you know   maybe you think I'm exactly the same on Twitter  as I am in real life but even so especially in   the crypto and web free world you know where where  we exist and what we cover decrypt a lot of people   are anons they're pseudonymous so any place  that you are your online self even if it's not   a visual Avatar the way we think you know Ready  Player One technically maybe that's the metaverse   um you know I recently uh hosted Neil Stevenson  on our podcast who wrote snow crash and coined   the term metaverse he basically said that as soon  as someone talks about either multiple meta verses   um or a metaverse as if well there's  this metaverse and then there's this   other metaverse he said that's when he knows  that they don't know what they're talking about   right and I'm not saying I necessarily agree  but but it would be a lot simpler if we just   agree there's one metaverse the way there  is one internet right right we don't talk   about multiple internets or unless we're  making a joke calling that the interwebs   um yes if you think back to if if you think back  to how we got the internet it actually was the   connection of networks it's the internet work of  smaller networks right and I think that's that   whole thing are we going to have one metaverse  or competing metaverses part of this is also   because there's so much money involved in you know  potentially winning here right like so you've got   meta you've got Google you've got Apple they're  all looking to build something um and they they   all are acting like it's kind of a winner take  all scenario right and I think the internet is   probably the last time the the you know the Geeks  of the world gave all of humanity something uh you   know without a price tag attached to it because  now everybody knows how much money there is to be   made right and so everybody's competing and kind  of building these things that are almost like   Walled Garden experiences they're looking to like  own the next metaverse platform um looking to kind   of kind of kind of win in that race personally  I think it's going to be a little bit like we've   seen with a mobile phone platforms like there's  lots of them that sprung up but then things settle   down to one or two major platforms and then of  course you've got to talk about you know what's   how do you do interoperability between metaverses  I definitely don't want to one don't want to say   that Neil Stevenson's wrong because I'm a huge fan  of his and uh snow crash uh awesome book as I was   growing up reading that yeah um but yeah I think I  think in many ways we could have competing metabus   yeah well and and the the idea of the money to  be made is really fascinating to me because the   jury's still out in a sense on whether there is a  lot of money to be made you know we ran a headline   that uh ended up being a pretty viral story months  and months ago uh when things were kind of peaking   and frothy and people were buying digital land  and the headline was someone just paid 450   000 to be Snoop Dogg's neighbor in the metaverse  so it was either in sandbox or decentraland one   of those two you know blockchain-based metaverse  worlds and I thought that looks like dumb money to   me yeah you know is that is that really going to  be valuable in 10 years maybe I'll be wrong well   especially since there's like multiple multiple  Virtual Worlds that you could do that in right you know virtual real estate it just it just and  a big question is is that 450 actual thousand   dollars of of real money or is that other tokens  that somebody got from somewhere that appreciated   and inflated over time in in what some people  would would argue is a bit of a crypto scam uh   you know what is that real money or not and and  so that's that's part of the question the other   thing is uh next to Snoop Dogg in a virtual  world what does next to actually mean like are   there going to be rules in the metaverse about  how the physics of the place operate can I can   I buy a tiny plot of land next to Snoop Dogg but  you know make it like uh the Tardis in Doctor Who   so when you go into it it's actually much bigger  than than it first appeared to be what are the   rules of these virtual spaces that will make an  investment like that value and I'm picturing the   Sims like if I'm Snoop I don't want some random  person to just be able to come over all the time   when I'm hanging in my metaverse house but you  know even as we just discuss these things it just   sounds kind of silly to me and I'm not saying  that for the entire metaverse but I will say   um I as it currently stands I'm not very  interested in hanging out in these Realms   you know so something's going to have to change  you X wise dramatically to appeal to me to get me   to either sign into one of these Realms or strap  on the headphones whatever it is the goggles yeah   I think a lot of people would say that that this  is waiting for its Apple moment right like people   keep saying when when are the Apple goggles  coming out when are the Apple goggles coming   out because every time Apple has moved into a a  space they've released something that is that is   new Innovative changes the rules around how you  interact with that right like the the iPhone uh   wasn't wasn't just an iPod and a browser slapped  together it was it was something entirely new the   Apple UI guidelines for how you write an app on  iOS we're actually formative for anyone who is   building any kind of app and so like I would argue  the the one of the things that that we are waiting   for and that will be significantly formative is  when if and when an apple headset comes out and   all of the associated guidance that they give  without because they never produce something   unless it's actually useful usable it's it's  you know it's moving the Paradigm forward   yeah do you think that the the metaverse in order  to become you know instead of just wearing the   goggles do you think that like it needs to feel  more you know more like than just a game so do we   need to have the haptics and the the feedbacks and  maybe even smells and things like that or is that   just you're just adding layers to something that  that maybe people don't want anyway because they   don't want to feel like they're trapped like in in  snow crash for example like people started having   full body suits and you know Ready Player One the  guy had like you know all of the latest things or   is it just that like people just don't want might  not want to do that I mean we all remember second   life right like that was kind of yeah and like  it was cool for a while and then people started   and then you're like well now you can fly and now  you can have unicorn wings and I'll keep it safe   for work but other things that that happened too  that sort of just put the death knell on it I mean   Keith these are the the key questions it's really  about who are your constituents right it's Case by   case some people who are Gamers whose interest  in the metaverse is gaming which the sort of   birth of the new metaverse is leading with gaming  right I suspect they would want all the things a   chair that has feedback and rumbles you know just  like when you're playing a console game I'm dating   myself but you know I remember when Rumble pad  was a new thing and the thing would Shake um maybe   it's haptic love maybe it's the headset but then  there's regular folks and if I'm the the regular   folk type what's going to bring me in I don't want  to do all that gaming stuff there has to be some   kind of cool draw and I I think Neil put it well  in our interview he said he really doesn't think   the future is going to involve goggles now that's  not to say there isn't a market for some folks to   buy that headset you know uh Mike you mentioned  the Apple headset which is highly anticipated   I'm not super bullish on it because Oculus hasn't  you know gone mainstream none of those things have   gone mainstream but there are going to need to be  multiple experiences right uh Keith you mentioned   Half-Life I think of even Animal Crossing which  is a lot more recent that to me was a metaverse   experience I mean people were doing all these cool  things time was moving differently I remember a   great story at the peak of the pandemic  where someone in the new Animal Crossing   had established like a Federal Reserve Bank of  Animal Crossing and it was giving out you know it   was adjusting the inflation rate I know that was  genius that to me is a a metaverse realm and that   would be more interesting to me than strapping  on the headset and flying or having lasers and   samurai swords yeah I think my I think go ahead go  ahead and then I'm gonna make a joke the use cases   um I think they're actually going to be driven  by the commercial and Industrial world because   there there's there's a utility to it right like  if I can walk around a manufacturing plant uh with   augmented reality glasses and see little green  check marks on everything that's working and a   big flashing warning sign on something that is  that is potentially become dangerous in in my   industrial context that's actually really  useful and I think that's actually where   kind of the Apple stuff and all the other um uh  headsets are going to go is that in the first case   people are going to spend thousands of dollars  on these things because it reduces costs in a   design or manufacturing process and it's going  to filter down from there part of all of this as   well is the the cost of the headsets right like  it you know the quest is like north of 400 that   the pro versions uh uh 1500 bucks or you know  they've reduced the price now but it's still   a thousand dollars that's a lot for for anyone to  pay um and if you think about it kind of uh these   things are sort of gaming consoles that you stick  on your face um that's that's a lot of money to   choose to spend on um a you know a gaming thing  that that blocks you off from the the rest of the   the household yeah I like how it it became a thing  where it was valuable for work in in manufacturing   and and I'm going to give you an example of  training I was at a trade show last year and   they were this company was using software that  could actually teach you how to do something via   you know you put on the headset and then you're  watching it and and then you can build something   and then after you watch sort of where to put  the pieces they're like okay now do it again and   it was like boom boom boom and I could actually  assemble something really quickly as an example of   how to use it for training I I think the mistake  that a lot of people made is by calling it the   industrial metaverse like as it's as if it's  something that's connected to this other thing   they should have just called it the work averse or  the the which is a horrible horrible idea but um   you know sort of like not connected to this goofy  VR world of Mark zuckerbergs because I think also   the big mistake they made was then trying to say  that people were going to use these for conference   calls and and video meetings and why would they  why would it be more appealing to do the call   as your you know cartoonish Avatar wasn't there  even a meta ad briefly that he said watch this or   it was a video on social and he entered a meeting  room and someone was a whale and someone else was   like an alien okay I mean yeah yeah I I think  I I will say though you know there is research   that says us like interacting with each other  on 2D displays actually requires a ton of effort   on the part of the human brain to like interpret  um a picture of somebody as a person and then to   interact with them so you know we all talk about  Zoom fatigue because we're on Zoom all day and all   that kind of stuff there's actually physiological  effects of that and it you know potentially there   are times when maybe you can take a break  from that and and do some sort of a VR meeting   um I've done a few VR meetings like I would say  it's very early days clunky the headsets are too   heavy you know all of that kind of stuff it's kind  of early adopter problems but I could see it being   useful you know to to to be able to make that  connection with my colleagues uh the thought works   for the company I work for we're a highly kind of  socially connected organization and I would say   like the pandemic hurt us in our connections to  one another because we were so used to you know   um being able to spend in-person time and do all  of the the things kind of between the meeting   that are important I guess there's a question  as to whether these virtual conference tools   will enable any of those kinds of things like the  conversation at the water cooler or the bar after   the main meeting or whatever because it certainly  with zoom when the meeting finishes everybody's   like happy to log off and oh yeah oh yeah whatever  I have a zoom meeting I'm like uh and it's done   I'm like oh I could breathe again or you know  scratch my head and things like that or or not   worry that my dogs are going to start barking and  and destroying the meeting um I want to get back   to another question about the why why did these  companies decide that we needed a metaverse or   we needed the future of the internet like why  couldn't we just take the existing internet   and just add to it and just still call it  the internet is it just because of money   I I think first of all there was like a frenzied  land grab you know it felt to me like there was a   moment and I'd already say it's passing that  is not to say it's dead but the era of those   big centralized Tech Giants doing a land grab uh  it sort of had its moment and that's why we're   seeing meta back away although I also don't think  they're completely backing away I mean they have   to throw a little bit of good money after bad now  because they fully committed and changed the name   of the company yeah which was inane but um I would  chalk it up to like you know a a fomo moment which   is also what happened with crypto you know in the  pandemic we saw crypto go nuts because suddenly   um the retail investor revolution had happened you  know the GameStop stuff on Reddit all of this was   related to me there was you know a two-year period  where money went mad and people started looking   for alternate Investments and I think that's  when these companies caught the bug of well we've   already got the the web one internet what's the  next thing and we know they're always trying to   um you know skate to where the puck will be  instead of where it is right now although in   meta's case I think it did a very poor job of it  they're chasing AI I mean they're they're doing   the exact same thing with AI that I think they  did with the metaverse well it does feel like   tnai stuff now is is that's the next  big thing that everyone's all chasing   um but Mike Mike you were saying that like could  this actually then sort of be integrated into a   metaversian uh I just can't believe I used that  word um concept could you could you take the some   of these AI tools and then go oh this is what  we needed all along and this is what's going   to make the metaverse finally happen because  I know you said you had some thoughts on that   yeah I do I I think there's a couple of things  happening first of all let's not underestimate   metas uh you know tens of billions of dollars  invested in Virtual and augmented reality Tech   uh I there was a interview last year where  Reid Hastings was the CEO of Netflix said   everybody should be saying thank you to Mark  Zuckerberg for the investment that he's made   in VR Tech and driving it Forward because this  is serious engineering right like it actually   takes time you know you to to produce stuff that  you can strap onto your face comfortably and and   that is doing the right things with the Optics is  significant engineering investment um so I I think   it's important to to acknowledge how far some of  these things have come in terms of like increasing   uh pixel density on the displays uh lightweight  um uh you know lightweight overall headsets   um increasing Graphics Fidelity all of  those kinds of things but if you think about   um the AI Revolution that seems to be happening  which is great because everybody has been worried   that there's going to be an AI winter and I think  uh you know as of as of December January we've   decided there's no AI window yeah um actually  artificial general intelligence is coming which   I don't believe but you know um this stuff is  this stuff is genuinely amazing and a significant   leap forwards and um some of the stuff you can do  with uh giving a prompt getting an image generated   there's now Tech that you can use that goes beyond  that so you can give a prompt get a 2D image and   then extrapolate to actually a 3D environment  it's not a particularly good one there's kind   of low Fidelity and there's some there's some  problems with it but it is amazing that you can   now use generative AI to make a 3D scene based on  a prompt okay so that kind of thing could help us   generate a lot of the content that we need for the  metaverse to be compelling because that comes back   to the question of like why would I spend hours in  you know with with the stuff strapped to my face   I've it's got to be compelling content I've got  to be either you know doing a job doing my doing   my work and being being productive or I've got  to be getting serious entertainment value from   it and real quick I think Mike's under something  that you know with with the comment earlier about   industrial use or touring a factory and that  kind of thing it's very unsexy isn't it it's   very dry but if we're being realistic that's  probably what will be the biggest area you know   we're focusing too much but everyone does it  when you talk about the metaverse on regular   folks individuals consumers it's going to be like  for work purposes or I'd make it even worse or in   my mind even worse uh corporate it'll be like  corporate use cases uh so maybe you and your   friends won't end up jumping in there and that's  okay it can become a high value uh outlet for   corporate Pro services without uh you needing to  meet up with all your friends in in a virtual bar   and I think like if you if you think about the  other thing that's happening here which is the   evolution of like human machine interaction right  so we've been talking about like the visual stuff   so so strapping goggles on and being in a visual  space but there's a lot of other interaction   mechanisms that are also evolving so um speech  recognition has gotten really really good yeah   um natural language processing these you know the  chat TPT talks just like a real person actually   talks like a little bit too convincingly like that  that friend of yours who knows everything about   everything that's kind of how Chad GPT appears to  me but there's also things like haptics right like   so yeah touch and and gesture recognition uh we've  done some work with an auto manufacturer who is   looking to use haptics in the car so that rather  than actually touching you know a knob on the   dashboard to change the volume you just kind of  hold your hand up and make a gesture in the right   spot on the dash and that's changing the volume  and when you do that kind of research you can also   yeah like look at somebody's eyeballs and figure  out how much time are they spending looking at the   road while using this new style of interaction  that we're trying to create for them so if you   broaden the whole thing out to human machine  interaction there's actually that could be very   relevant to everybody yeah and and Mike something  that you brought up in terms of adding the the   prompts to the sort of the metaverse and or the  the or like the VR stuff that got me thinking is   like does that mean we could actually get closer  to this idea of the Holodeck from Star Trek where   you could go into a room with your headset on and  then say generate a a castle uh put a thrown over   to the left um you know build some some nights  over to the right and then all of a sudden boom   it happens because it's you're again you're  generating content ideas and then having it   show up in a virtual world it's a lot easier to  do that than sort of like either draw something   that's going to be a FL well it made mine it  might not be as easy as a 2D image but could   that then that's almost like an early Holodeck I'm  starting to think is that that's fantastic I think   how do you paint in that could you give me like  uh I only need 50 billion how much money should   I ask like maybe that's what Zuckerberg should  do like I never understood why they wanted to   buy Oculus in the first place but you do make  sure they didn't know what to do with it yeah   yeah like well I think I think I think I I gotta  say I think Ready Player one gives us some clue   like so if you why did Facebook Rebrand to meta  and what it what have they been trying to do   um if you listen to their earnings calls  they're actually like unhappy with Apple   for the restrictions that apple have put into  iOS which like inhibits their ability to uh   mine people's data and advertise to them  right so that is actually like slowing down   um Facebook's Revenue stream and what they wanted  to do with all of this uh metaverse stuff is build   that next platform for connecting people and being  a social platform so they wanted to you know they   wanted to um control that and actually in one of  their early releases uh they had the they put in   um the ability to pay creators you know so people  could like sell stuff on the on the platform   and their cart was 50 right like I and they're  complaining about the Apple store right I'm like   okay your car is 50 and you're trying to earn the  next uh platform here for human interaction yeah   could you be a little bit more subtle about this  right like I'm immediately reminded of the bad guy   in Ready Player one where he's saying you know  we think we can sell 70 of a useless visual uh   uh screen without inducing seizures you know and  I'm like this this seems awfully familiar to me   yeah does that mean like you know could could we  get a different like either a tech evangelist or   some other celebrity that's not Mark Zuckerberg or  not sort of the the Facebook face to sort of maybe   kind of kick-start it and or boost it or and again  I don't I'm not suggesting you know Elon Musk or   anybody like that but it should be Keanu yeah  well he tried that with yeah and and didn't he   didn't he invest in cyberpunk 2077 and then that  just tanks right that game something yeah he did   a great AMA recently talking about um basically  everything on Reddit but someone asked if the   Matrix is real and he said yes no yes but I mean  it's funny you guys you talked about the Holodeck   I mean I I think of Minority Report which um was  the movie that has really stuck with me over the   years I always go back to it and there's a scene  where um he he's been given new eyeballs and he   walks into the Gap and it says Mr Yamamoto welcome  back how did those v-neck t-shirts work out   and you know we're sort of basically there  because of those Amazon ghost stories where   you can just walk in get your stuff and walk out  because it finds your phone somehow and scans it   and that's it no checkout and I don't know that  that's metaverse but it's not not metaverse City   you know it's I mean all these things are sort  of interconnected the idea I mean I use Clear   at the airport I don't care privacy wise yeah  the convenience is very worth it yeah you scan   your eyes boom you skip everyone and all these  things I feel like are converging uh if they   create conveniences in our lives yeah and it's  like something that we didn't talk about which   is which is the data and privacy and potential  downsides here right like because you know it's   it's one thing to to track everything I click  on on the internet with like you know cookie   tracking and stuff like that it's a whole level  of of difference in intimacy if you're tracking   my eyeballs through a 3D experience and figuring  out what am I looking at what's what's actually   interesting to me like what's what's my facial  expression while I'm using one of these metaverse   experiences so I think there is a a topic of  conversation there about how do we protect people   from companies misusing the data how do we inform  people properly you know that whole thing is is   a can of worms and certainly hasn't been solved  yeah and what I say is you know it's too late to   put privacy toothpaste back in the tube you know  unpopular opinion but if it makes my daily life   easier all good I'll sign up for whatever I mean  at this point Google and apple already know every   single thing about me it's way too late to try to  have privacy online but have you know do they know   whether or not you're going to commit a crime in  the future like right right they haven't figured   that out yet right I hope the data privacy thing  is always is always fascinating me too because   um I was all in on the idea of sort of Chip  implants in my head uh because again that was like   early cyberpunk too he was like you would have  like an audio jack and you just kind of plug it   in your head or plug it in the back kind of like  what the Matrix or Matrix did and then you would   be you would be able to access all the information  out in the world and and get all this stuff and   as a teenager when I'm reading this stuff I'm like  that is so cool I really really want that but then   the other day so you know so now 30 years later  someone asked me that and I was like no I don't   think I want a chip in my brain or my or even in  my wrist or anything like that because because   again I just don't want the the other people out  there to to know that kind of stuff about me but   I do think Keanu would would make a great kind  of spokesman for the metaverse and maybe this   Holodeck idea is you know should I should I  contact him and and see what we're gonna get   out of there anybody know him no um I hear he's a  really nice guy yeah um in terms of the uh Dan in   terms of the currency sort of aspect to it um did  did a lot of the stuff that's been going on with   crypto and nfts did like because it's always it  always feels like there's bad news on that front   um does that slow down sort of the  adoption and the enthusiasm around it   so it's interesting I mean it depends on whom  you ask I I recently came back from nft Paris   um and it was an incredible conference I mean they  had 10 000 people in this huge building facing the   Eiffel Tower you could not have walked around this  event and felt like crypto and nfts are dead it   did not feel like a bear Market conference um and  the key and and Mike was onto something earlier   with the idea of you know companies getting in uh  tons of big consumer Brands and luxury Brands were   on hand and they've gone from just rhetoric to  actual launches of things you know they're doing   nft drops they're offering um digital items that  are tied to physical items and I think there's   definitely something there uh where metaverse  comes into it is you know everyone is used to   the idea of in-game items whether it's a skin a  sword a weapon an accessory a hat whatever and   so you know why is it such a leap for so many  gamers to understand the idea of nfts I mean   just stop using the acronym nft if that's the top  toxic part but all we're talking about is the next   evolution of in-game digital items but recorded  on blockchain so that there's permanence there   there's provenance so I do think there's something  there now um I keep going back to my Neil chat but   there's another interesting thing he said which  is you know he's he's a fan of the open metaverse   same with um yatsu as a huge metaverse investor  from Anna mocha Brands another big figure in this   space they all say we want an open metaverse  not the closed wild Gardens of Facebook and   others yeah of course Zuckerberg would say oh  we're not trying to do closed matter verse but   say there won't continue to be games their own  realm because no one is saying that you should   be able to bring an item for some game that has  a totally different visual aesthetic into another   game I mean that's why game designers build  these beautiful worlds no one's I think no one   is trying to ruin those but there is going to be  an interoperable future that involves items that   you can take from place to place and I think those  will be nfts and will that just be the currency   then as well or is it is it something other than  just the currency well I also think you know   we're going to get away from this jargon like what  people should understand yeah nfts are just tokens   just like ethereum and other cryptocurrencies are  tokens now the difference with a non-fungible is   each one is unique and different but I think  we're just going to call everything a token so   there will be some places where the currency  is an actual well-known cryptocurrency maybe   it's eth and you have to pay an eth that's a token  maybe it's having a certain nft that's a token as   a member pass you know you can only get into this  space uh I interviewed it at nft Paris the web 3   lead at uh Playboy they're gonna launch a digital  Playboy Mansion which I think is genius they're   calling it The Meta mansion and it'll be open to  all but if you own Playboy's separate nft then you   get special access into another area of the meta  Mansion I think we're going to see more um use   cases like that and I think the nfts with utility  like you just said hey if you if you have this nft   if you own this nft you can get access to this  thing and you know these days we're even seeing   that with uh you know Discord memberships for  example or you know early access to to creators   content and stuff like that I think that's that's  like a reasonable use of nfts the downside comes   when people go I'm gonna buy the Playboy nft  because I think they're only going to issue 10   000 of them and it's going to go up in value and  I'm speculating and that's what has happened yeah   exactly that's exactly what's happened right away  from yeah and that's when it's not a good look   right and starts to bring you back to kind of the  sour downsides of that I also think though that   um metaverse interop is not it's not clear where  we're going to land with that because again back   to the gaming example if uh blizzard created a  metaverse with multiple experiences in it that I   could move between using you know blizzard created  assets and all that kind of stuff but I couldn't   go anywhere other than the blizzard metaverse  I actually think a lot of Gamers would be like   I really like blizzard properties there's plenty  of stuff for me to do there I'm happy within this   you know this Walled Garden metaverse that that  is that is just that one if you look to China   um the consortia there are creating kind of  private blockchains between you know three or   four fairly large companies and then doing interop  that way so it's not fully open fully public um   but you're starting to see some of it so I don't  know where that's going to go it's also going   to be this this uh people petitioning for and  working for Open Standards versus the big money uh   you know companies who would who are secretly  not so secretly trying to create wall Gardens   for themselves yeah I I still don't get the idea  of this metaverse in terms of the separate worlds   that then could connect you and why why a user  would necessarily need or want to go from one   Universe to the other so like if I'm in you know  I've got a character in fortnite for example and   I've got a bunch of the Marvel skins and and all  those things um but if I wanted to go then move to   Diablo where I've got another character or Roblox  or anything like that like why do I need to why   do I mean other than I would have to recreate that  Avatar or that or that character like it would be   nice to just take that and then sort of transfer  it over I get the same name I get the same   skills or I don't know and then and then go to  school with the same kind of look and feel the   irony is as I understand and I'm not a gamer those  are the few examples of Worlds that are um looser   and don't have as much of a unified aesthetic in  other words the fact that you can have a fortnight   team with IP from all these different franchises  you know you can have Iron Man playing with   um a Smurf right I don't know if you can have a  Smurf but so I hear I know you can have Iron Man   I haven't seen the Smurf ones yet but right like  Minecraft Roblox and fortnite I think are games   where they don't appear to care as much about you  know as opposed to I mentioned Animal Crossing   before that has a beautiful very distinct look and  if you you know paraded into the Animal Crossing   world as Iron Man it would be ridiculous so I  think some are already well suited to allowing   um porousness more than other games are okay and I  wanted to bring up another one other thing because   this is when you talked about the whole walking  into the Amazon ghost store that made me think of   um there was that movie uh did you guys see free  Guy where it was sort of an in-game Universe   it was Ryan Reynolds but again same kind of  thing he's walking around with the glasses on   and he's being able to pick up different things  in the world and then activated superpowers and   things like that that's another sort of image  that is always on this augmented reality side   um do you think maybe augmented reality with  the right equipment might might have a better   shot than sort of the full-on bodysuit VR world  Dan you're smiling I'm gonna ask you first well   just real quick as soon as people mention AR to  me and maybe this will be the rest of my life I   think of the Snapchat hot dog do you guys remember  briefly when Snapchat was was hot back in the day   although as I hear it's come back now with with  the kids but uh Snapchat rolled out a dancing hot   dog and it was AR so you could Point your phone  to something and then make a video and the hot   dog would be dancing on your desk or dancing on  your computer or on someone's face and um there   was an earnings call where Snapchat was touting  like how its usage had gone up it's daily active   because people were excited about the AR hot dog  then it's stock tanked because it did a lot wrong   but I still think I I haven't yet seen maybe Yelp  is an exception Yelp uh briefly had an AR feature   or maybe it still does where you're trying to  figure out where a certain restaurant is and it   shows you on the map and it pops up and it looks  a little different than just Google Maps but for   the most part I'm a real skeptic on on you know  actual uses in my day daily life of AR and VR yeah   and and Mike I'm going to get to you in a second I  think the the AR usage use case for me that would   be wonderful would be is have I'm in a city  and I'm in my hotel I'm at a city I haven't   been around before and I want to go get some  tacos and if I had something and I don't want   to use my phone I want to have it like you know  something that I could see in my glasses where I   type in the restaurant and it gives me the walking  direction with like giant arrows virtual arrows on   the ground so that I'm not walking around  because I've tried that with my phone and   I just look really stupid and that's what Google  Glass was supposed to do right right and then and   then Robert scoble ruined it all by wearing them  in the shower but you know well and and Google   Glass didn't die it went Enterprise right and so  on FedEx like equipped all of their drivers with   with like Enterprise Google Glass which was  helping them find packages in the back of the   truck quicker and suddenly you've got an actual  you know again it's a commercial use case though   right like it's not the consumer use case but you  could imagine that the investment that goes into   making uh AR glasses for industrial applications  will eventually trickle down and US consumers   would be able to get a lightweight enough pair  of glasses something that I'd find incredibly   useful for AR is remembering people's names like  if my AR glasses can like facial recognition the   person I'm talking to and remind me who they are  um that would actually be really helpful in both   sort of Social and professional contexts um if  I'm in a shoe store right I'd actually love my   AR glasses to gray out all the stuff on the wall  where I whether they don't have my shoe size right   right like that would be a fantastically useful  use case but the no you know we can't get that   right now because because no the hardware is  too expensive to assume that someone's got it   uh Mike I want to ask you another question now  you deal with a lot of sort of corporate and   Enterprise clients are they souring on on sort of  the metaverse or are they just focusing sort of   on that possible industrial usage simulation  digital twin that type of things are they or   were they never even interested in that whole VR  stuff anyway I so I think everybody has everybody   has a department of innovation where somebody  should be paying attention to these kinds of   things yeah so we do get a lot of queries about  this kind of stuff and our advice has always been   uh for organizations to stay close enough to it  that when and if it takes off that they've got   some experience and they understand how some of  these things work I think considering how you want   to represent your brand in these new mediums is  really important so what do you want your do you   want your brand to be next to Snoop Dogg in in the  metaverse right like that's a that's a question   for you if you're building a chat bot what kind  of what kind of chatbot is it what is what's the   voice like yeah is it friendly or formal you know  like what what kinds of is is it male or female   you know like how does it present itself uh so  like thinking about what your brand does when   it comes to this new interaction Tech that's kind  of a lot of the stuff that that we advise clients   on and the general advice is to stay close enough  that that it's still wait and see but don't don't   get surprised by it um but probably also don't go  out and hire a bunch of unity developers right now   um because it's a bit early for them right and  and Dan kind of final question uh where did do   you see sort of this happening with in the future  within the next couple of years I mean is it gonna   is is it sort of that whole uh Gartner curve  of innovation where we're now in that little   trough of disillusionment and then someone will  figure out a good way to and we'll we'll be still   talking about this in a couple years yeah it's man  it's really hard to see the future but I remember   interviewing someone years ago about Oculus  and they were acknowledging that all previous   um VR headsets hadn't really worked and here's why  uh and it still definitely hasn't gone mainstream   and it was supposed to go mainstream long ago  but they said it will it will and that was about   Oculus and I haven't seen the sales numbers I know  there are people who enjoy it I went to a party   maybe two years ago someone had one we all played  around with it but just anecdotally it seems fair   to me to say that it still ain't mainstream you  know far from it now that's just specifically   the headset so when you talk about the next five  ten years I really don't know I'm a skeptic but   I think people will continue building because  so much money has been put in uh that you know   you can't just abandon it just because it hasn't  caught on overnight right um but I think Mike was   on to something that it's going to be companies  that drive this which again is sort of uh boring   and unsexy and disappointing to say but um there  are going to be use cases that maybe pop up that   are more like B2B and enterprisey and behind the  scenes to the point where probably in 10 years   someone could say exactly what I'm saying seems  like it's not mainstream but actually they just   don't realize that there are lots of Corporations  really using it and spending on it right right so   yeah Innovative Technologies are cool until the  corporations get to it and then they make the   money off of it but it's really boring right yeah  yeah all right guys so that's all the time we've   got so uh thanks thanks again for for joining  us on the show uh great topic and and I can't   wait to talk to you guys about it again sometime  excuse thanks all right and uh also don't forget   to like this video subscribe to our Channel and  add any comments that you have below join us every   week for new episodes of today in Tech have a  great day and we'll see you next time foreign

2023-03-18 21:16

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