Cooperation for technology upgrading in the BRICS and inthe Global South, Fulufhelo Netswera
because I come from the global no Glo Global South rather I think my perspective about life and about multilateral issues would definitely be different uh you wouldn't expect me to speak like somebody who come from France or somebody who come from Germany or New York sorry professor and and that we should expect because our background does inform how we perceive the world and uh how we the ideal world that we would love to see and therefore a lot of things that I'm discussing here may seem very factual to me but perhaps it is what I would really love to see rather than facts so you must also read between the lines as I talked so our projection um and and I mean Runa has given me a topic for which I'm not so very competent I can talk a lot about um technology upgrades I I haven't done considerable work in this in this area but I can attempt and I did attempt here to share some ideas about it but what I've provided as a a lecture today is almost an alakat menu so there is some of the and there is a little bit of politics and economics and you can you can make your deductions our projection is that by 2050 there are going to be serious changes globally in as far as multilateral relations are concerned and in as far as economic domination in particular is concerned uh of course there um there is a lot of talk about possible Wars of the future in as far as Ukraine the Middle East and Taiwan are content and there are those who are skeptical about the possibilities of War happening specifically involving the superpowers and the nuclear country armed countries so we will never know until it happens and by the time it happens maybe maybe we won't even know what hit us so as you can see data does tell us that India is doing tremendously well economically and it is on the upward trajectory likelihood is that India in the foreseeable future will indeed become economy number three um there is nothing slowing down India and of course uh the Americans will do their best to protect their position but looking at what is currently going on ER with the various economic Wars between the USA and China between the USA and and and Russia and the general sentiment around the world regarding the role of the USA in global Affairs I think things are generally not looking so very good for the US things are not looking good at so I I suspect perhaps I hope and wish that it will slide down tremendously and quickly so that it doesn't continue to flex his muscle uncontrollably both in the United Nations security Council but equally in other multilateral institions I think that is a hope for majority of people from the global you will you will pardon us for those for those thoughts sometimes we don't want to articulate them in a forum like this I so is already bricks has surpassed and we're talking only about the former five countries the G7 it has a huge implication now if you were to look at bricks plus the the other plus countries we are talking massive economic power house H it has huge huge implications the Russians are working very hard on a new monetary system and we hope that it will material and that we will continue to Dish the dollar and um become independent of the US dollar but for those who watch the interview between President Putin and um Tak yes yes you would have I mean he made a very profound statement President Putin that the US continue to use sanction and then by harm its own economy and economic prospects because for as long as countries become independent of the US dollar then the US has no power over those countries as you can see what's happening in in Russia current so the use of that instrument as an instrument of War I think needs to be seriously re by the US CZ they really seriously have to re a lot of countries now are reducing their reserves because they don't want the same fate um that faces the Russians you know um so so there's a lot of gold buying there is a lot of moving away from the US dollar and it can only harm the US the US the agreement with the SA the petrol dollar agreement laps this year and there's been a lot of talks about um Saudi Arabia not renewing that that agreement we don't know what will eventually happen maybe they will get some threats and they will continue or maybe they will but they've given a no to using other currencies such as the Yuan to trade in in oil uh so so many other countries might continue trading their oil that there are there are bilateral agreements happening a lot of them um India and and Russia using their own National currencies between themselves so indeed the USA if I was a citizen of the USA I would not feel very good the future [Music] there is a a big consideration we must make for natural resources because competition really is about resources for as long as we talk about Technologies Tech transfer big data and all this very very important equally important but you need the natural resources to grow your economies hence the superpowers are continuing to scramble the continent of Africa some of you might know what is happening in West Africa currently with France being booted out from all the way from Mali [Music] to Niger baso and so on and so forth so um definitely um France has no role to play in the foreseeable future in in West Africa and in central Africa the exploitation of those resources of course are slowly but surely slanting toward the use Russia but but it's something that should be corrected I think we should not trade superpowers we should trade resources um that is very very important as far as concern now you will see that the Colton 48% of the deposit of culton in particular are within the de Democratic Republic of the con this is the country that has endless Wars since the CIA outed a democratically elected president patri lumumba that was in the 60s and ever since that country has never seen peace to date um there are of course a few countries within the continent that are being sponsored to perpetuate that conflict in the Eastern DRC mainly for mineral resources mainly for mineral resources be it colon diamonds gold the DRC heitor in actual fact we project that if not for Wars and if not for Colonial domination and exploitation historic and current the DLC could be easily become a super power by itself on the basis of its resources um so there's a lot happening but of course the war of resources will continue and I think it will escalate what I foresee happening specifically in West Africa is that as the the Russians are moving in and the French are moving out you saw that the US Army is also equally being moved out from bukina Faso in recent past they're busy moving out they not completely um so chances are that there will be sponsorships of terrorism terrorism doesn't always manifest from within it's not always internal strife the there are always big Powers who are now let me switch over and talk slightly about other interesting issues and this may relate to how economists will become dominant in the future and how they will make progress H to become dominant and of course we should talk about Science and Technology investments in research R&D and Technologies and how does bricks Fair as far as that is concerned I think BRS as others have said here it's partially a loose group and I I'm very sad to say so because I would really love it was a formidable it's a partially loose group doing its best here and there but not not everything is at the level that is admirable and I hope that we will get our act together I'm not shy to use the we in this instance so I hope that we will get our act together and but if you look at the investment in Technologies and r& you will see a few years back when I went for the national Research Foundation we were talking about investment in South Africa of 1.5 GDP into research and Innovation at that point we were sitting at 0.7 but I see that we've not made progress ever since however there is a lot of progress as you can see in as far as the investment from China's conent the question is will the benefits that are through out of China's own internal investments in research and innovation in India's research and Innovation ER be enjoyed by all the bricks countries and and really I I wouldn't say automatic emphatic yes since we are not a cohesive group chances are that at one level we try and we want we try and we want to uh Co cooperate but at another level we try very hard to compete even against each other and and that might not be so very helpful especially for the smaller countries we don't have formidable policies on [Music] trade that optimizes opportunities for the members and for those in the global South although the rhetoric is a very very positive um I I continue the the looking at the areas of dominance in as far as projecting economies is content and as this graph shows before 2012 and the finance sector was indeed a dominant factor a dominant sector and currently surpassed by the technology sector so who knows what will happen in the near future but these sectors as I said earlier on are highly reliant on natural resource Investments and exploitation of those because without um the relevant the requisites natural resources primary resources you will not be able to prop up your technology sector you equally won't be able to do so for your financial sector or any other sector so I startout around in as far as those projections for 2050 are conent we say in 2050 the likelihood is that China will be the biggest economy followed by the US followed by India and Germany and so on now I I looked around for factors that are likely going to influence that dominance and here are those factors I'm sure you might find one or two additional alternative in literature but here are some of those dominating dominant factors and the Sub sub factors thereof technological advancement as you saw in the previous graph is currently the most important factor but so is population population you will see in most projection Indonesia for argument sake India of course and and Nigeria to a large degree these countries with huge popul Pro provided you invest in that population in Skilling in development of that population and making sure that that population contribute positively in the development and growth of your own economies and in the contribution to the global economy then the likelihood is that your upward trajectory is guaranteed so those countries with huge population are likely indeed to make it into the next Century as the biggest economy Brazil included but of course the investment in that population is but you need important institutions good institutions we have been reading reports on Africa um over the past over the past few years nearly 80 billion I think I think 80 billion move out ilicit out of Africa if you check the report by the Tavon Bei Tavon Bei the former president of South Africa he he headed that particular group that was running that big project 80 billion unaccounted Running Out of Africa and of course ER for the 14 frankophone African countries annually investing half of their money half of their their incomes in Paris 500 billion annually and we turn around and we say these countries are less developed they we've got no leadership the poor leadership Etc you can see the hypocrisy involved in world affairs because if this 500 billion was being reinvested in baso in Mali in Chad and everywhere else those countries will definitely be far as we speak so the true liberation of the African countries is yet to be born those countries continue to be Perpetual slave to the to the French economy and of course we need to make sure that education investment is in education is highly optimized it's very very important now since we are talking Technologies and technological innovations and the booming of the technology industry I thought it is important we look at some of these issues now you will see of course that the USA does dominate as far as this space is concerned but there is equally um a lot of interference in whatever economy but more importantly in this economy in this sector there is a lot of interference that comes from governments directly or indirectly and you will know if Trump was to come into power tomorrow the likelihood of that Tik Tok being closed down what are the chances I mean they've been talking about it for a long time what are the chances of South Africa being sanctioned because South Africa has taken Israel to the to the icj I mean there's a bill currently in Congress in the US the but but the posture from the B is not only to kick out but to apply additional sanctions on so they might they might go the full you know we we never know what what what what might happen because they argue South Africa has undermined the sovereignity and security of the USA I don't know how because Israel is US unless unless it's a colony of the you know so as you can see the domination of some of these industries some of these companies in particular is not out of pure competition it is because of government policy government interference and the same can be said of huwei so when we talk government interference we are not only making reference to the USA we we are saying by and large most of these dominant companies do so because of the support they get from their states directly and indirectly in policy and in in kind so that their economies could perform better against everybody else now the question is what are the chances of the small countries making it against some of these companies against some of these industries with weak States so competition between corporates is mar by state intervention even though we we do have we are liberal economies so I continue the talk on big Tech and we are looking at smart mobiles we were looking at artificial intelligence so these are some of the companies that are making it in artificial intelligence and these are the companies that are making it hugely in the smartphone industry and the countries from where those companies are now I I think there is a lot to say about competition er for those of you who are into economics whether true competition is feasible is possible does exist anywhere globally um without state intervention at all and what is the role of the state therefore is it just policy to guarantee that the environment within which corporate operates is indeed friendly and enabling Beyond constraining competitors from from the upside world now in the sector of the big Tech still but streaming you can see the US still dominate of course China to a large Degree come second and of course in the area of autonomous vehicle I must say when iOS some of the China ones leing behind the us a lot of people can argue China is now overtaken the US in this industry so if you look at recent data on what is happening in China China versus Europe China versus the USA you will see that European governments or the European Union as as much as the US are talking about restrictive the SUV is coming from China there is there is potential that they may restrict pre flow of some of these Imports that come very cheap extremely cheap because labor remains cheap in China although it is likely going to quickly escalate as the middle class Rises and these are cycal issues in economy they happen to each and every one of our economies so as the middle class rises in China chances are that labor will become expensive and the production of this is likely going to be expensive maybe they will set up shop in South Africa or in the in the in the Ethiopia you know because we are not not talking only about Technologies but we are talking about human resources we are talking about natural resources cloud comput computing uh you can see in the US still dominat China still follows of course it's a big industry and in as far as e-commerce is concerned of course China dominates in that there's been latest news about uh temo you it there's been latest news I read I think yesterday day before from the USA where senators were arguing this is a malware software the Chinese are collecting data through I mean they make the same argument that they've been making about Tik Tok and of course you can assume where this top is leading to Chances Are that those those companies like Teo and the other sh Shame Shame are likely going to face some backlash and and not be able to export or import or do whatever they do best in relation to Europe and to to the US now of course we spoke I mean I listen to The Talk day before yesterday about um Big Data data infrastructure and things like that and I think this is very important to note that the countries that Empower our data I think it was was it Kevin who gave um he spoke about something related to this so investment in some of this is extremely extremely important to make sure that your country is highly competitive and in the space of semiconductors as well some of you might know what happened in as far as the Netherlands is concerned regarding the lithography machines that the Chinese had been using and required that ER continuous support and of course they were told you must hold back a bit and Netherlands is currently in trouble because Alternatives were immediately put together China does not necessarily need all the support from the Netherlands they do need some support here and there and of course they're not fully independent of the west or know the no Europe complely but but they they have by and large I mean the same logic the same argument that Putin has made about um about the USA cutting of its own hands can be app applied in as far as Netherlands is concerned and his Monopoly over lithography Mach but of course we have seen new companies come up quickly Robert spoke about this in his previous talk he was talking about envidia that just rose out of nothing and immediately surpass everybody so Innovation space is extremely important the environment that gives rise to that kind of innovation should be made possible and the relevant support should be equally made I looked at the artificial intelligence index just to look at what informs this index and in as far as this index is concerned where do the countries of the globe sits currently and you can see that um in accordance with these vectors that constitute the artificial intelligence index China followed by India us and Indonesia seem to be the leading countries whether or not you agree with these factors and the methodology used to constitute or compute the index is another argument talk about that maybe there is something else they should have looked at which is equally important but at least it gives you a very very good idea where countries are at currently against that index and where they are likely going to be in as far as competition is concerned in the space of artificiality I went back to Bricks now sometime back as I said I used to work for the South African bricks tank and annually when we have uh the bricks Think Tank concept we would sit and look at recommendations and every country represented what what do we want to recommend for our heads of state and what is important at this particular juncture and and and and and we would put a few recommendations now if you run through those declarations you will see that there is quite a lot of articulation in in this particular space from bricks itself but it's equally also lose to some degree it is lose in that it is not tangible it doesn't produce tangible projects and programs where countries agree we are going to invest in one 2 3 4 but you can see the tone and the language that crafts those declarations and the intent there we say something very very positive and useful about digitizing our own economies about putting together domestic policies that are favorable to digitization of the economies and supporting the digital industry and and making sure that we collectively guard against cyber threats cyber crimes and so on and so forth but in in in fact in programmatic fashion not much as has happened except perhaps for something that I spoke about later on here which is the bricks technology Transfer Center Network and there are lot of conversations and work that is ongoing between numerous institutes coming together from China India South Africa Russia so they are working currently as we speak making sure that they help in as far as some of these proposals are con so again ER the bricks ER Network University or university Network and I think the University of campas is one of those so it's University of cap town and a few others have not been cohesively managed Brun and I talk a lot about some of these things and we think something equivalent to Rasmus program would have been much more ideal for bricks to give effect to Mobility among Scholars within the brick countries to give scholarship to PhD students who are moving within these countries and between these countries but that is not where we are [Music] May so I continue in analyzing the declaration and you can see these are some of the areas related St to the question of big Tech question of data question [Music] of cooperation in this particular areas so there are numerous indeed declarations that have been made in this particular space this is where I was earlier on and you can see the individual institutions I didn't list them here that are currently working within this Center or through this C musling efforts and and getting something going what it is that they have achieved to date it's everybody's big question and I hope that we can get presentations this technology Transfer Center Network just so that we can judge so that we can judge positive work is okay so I think this is the end of pleas you very much profor for the very very interesting presentation [Music] a hi hi professor thanks for the really interesting presentation I just had two questions that are quite different um so when we were talking about the CFA Frank zone of course I follow the work of dongos andilla and I was wondering what your views were on the kind of prospects for the end of this uh year Colonial horic system uh and then my second question is about the AI index I know you said maybe it's not your area of expertise but I was surprised to see in in 2024 is the third best of AI I'd like to hear a bit more about this okay no we can if there is another one or two I can take them yeah thank you so much Professor uh I wanted to ask about uh the involvement of countries in uh trade blocks and the cooperation blocks and the conern Hony in the morning we were hearing uh from from from the earlier profess that Europe likes to likes to enter in making a lot of regulations and they like to lead the world in terms of regularizing uh I was thinking about bricks recently that we all we already have like uh involvement of countries that like I would not name them but you would understand that like to be in a hemous state uh also we have a recent expansion of bricks we now have bricks plus uh Partners who have recently joined are quite good in producing energy if you would know that uh UAE is quite good in that um and we obviously have China that is like uh doing wonders in terms of uh manufacturing so what are your views on uh uh how to deal with this edim and how to make the the Dynamics of bricks more efficient um just have a quick question small one you said that India is going to grow in terms of GDP by 2050 so uh what what special India is doing according to you as compared to China that why it's overtaking [Music] China okay and I see Prof yeah maybe we can take Prof okay oh let me let me let me try and deal with and then we can come to Prof maybe there will be other other editions now the the question you asked about the CFA Frank it's a it's a I I I like following on what is happening in the rest of the continent specifically in West Africa these days because although there are military CES happening there you would be so shocked and I think a lot of westerners get very shocked why is there military we thought these people love Democrats and everybody's yeah yeah we want this Co to happen now you know and and they they really don't understand they don't get it they don't get it now a lot of West Africa perhaps with the exception of the former British colonies um find it hard I mean we spoke earlier on about them depositing 500 billion with the the bank the the Central Bank of Paris that is AAL amount of money and they have to write a proposal to request their money and and it might be declined so this is this is neoc colonial at another level that has never been seen before you know yes yes yeah so so H these these countries have been talking of late about abandoning that CFA specifically the new leader in bukina Faso he's making serious waves about it and of course they likely going to kill him I I saw that the Russians are in there to protect him so so I mean like like um his predecessors you know chances are that they may just eliminate you get a puppet there to run the government and everything El goes in accordance with the wish of Paris you know so so the interest that these countries are charged to deposit their Fund in France it's ridiculous France ought to be you know uh reimbursing these countries um I mean when you invest in your account a lot of money with your bank you get interest R now you can't be charged ex exit for for investing and that is what he said so so France has has remain that kind of power but you will recall when France wanted to pull out from Vietnam many years ago it was the USA that encouraged them to stay and also supported them to stay until they were defeated by by ABS ER so so I suppose that might be where we might be heading in the near future in West Africa you would have seen that Echo was being pushed aggressively by Western countries to counter those regimes until they clubbed together and they said if you fight any of us we you are fighting all of us you know so whatever happens in small countries it's not just happening there there are powers behind that are influencing but I think the question of the economies the question of the currency the the question of economic autonomy and Independence is extremely extremely important because those countries will never grow and they will never be able to look after their populace if they continue under the current conditions in relation to to to Paris you spoke about the artificial intelligence index now when the index doesn't assume that you are dominant or you are leading currently it only takes into account the factors that prevails in front of you and given these factors chances are that you might become very dominant because you've got the most favorable government policies you've got the resources you've got everything that is listed there for you to thrive but it might happen that you have got everything but you're still not able to move you know so but but it's a it's a the premise is that def yes yeah Indonesia is definitely not dominating but it has the potential and ability given those grounds to dominate currently and into the near future now the hemony of the of the bricks in particular you know Europe currently is equally not a very homogeneous entity [Music] EU there are there are within the EU serious St with Hungary with now maybe Italy and of course Tak and um it is not a formidable group it's very difficult to define the message the only thing that they've been able to do which I think is very Progressive has been a the question of the um single monetary system but equally H they've been able to somewhat progressively harmonize their policies through the European Parliament although there are Rumblings in there you can see if you follow the debates that happen inside and and there are serious fractures when it comes to some of the global contentious issues be they Ukraine Palestine relationship between China and so so these things will always happen but what we have not managed to do as yet as bricks is exactly what the European Union has done it will be important H but of course you you will know the relationship between India and China is not so Rosy and and therefore it makes it very very difficult Now by so saying it doesn't imply that as we become a formidable group we are therefore challenging the EU we are challenging the us and we don't we don't want to cooperate and trade and so that that that should not be the the the arguments to the contrary we want to trade with you but we want to do so as a group as much as Europe is a group to some extent but but we are weak in that regard and of course there should be a lot of work I mean the example I gave of the Erasmus program is a very practical example where if bricks was to put just 10 million us for status you can get a lot going you know and of course you can increase the investment in that particular direction and you will yield numerous achievement of because we must remember [Music] that cultural exchange is extremely important now when we go to the US to study there and when we go to Britain to study there we are not just going there to get qualification a piece of paper you come back with all the values all the Traditions you carry from the UK and you want to implement here in you know which in a way perpetuates indirect domination now it is very important that we we think along those those lines to a large degree so exchange cultural exchange is extremely important but you will see that China does that through the confusious institute in some countries and but not other countries I mean India of course we are Indians in South Africa we have got more but but as far as other countries are concerned the role and dominance of India is not the role and dominance of Brazil but we need really to to digest these issues we need to have a programmatic action to to deal with those particular challenges why is India doing so well and perhaps on a path to I don't know if we will overtake China in during our lifetime um but but it's doing very well because it has created a conducive environment especially for the economy to thrive and a lot of people do credit Prime Minister Modi for this I don't know if it can be credited to his legacy really completely H you will see I was looking data on India India in the past 10 years had 350 startups startups currently 129,000 startups just in 10 years now that's a Quantum Li it tells you that something is happening that makes innovation in India person I've got the collaborators at pdu and and is really fascinating having engagements sitting with them looking at what they are doing within their own campus their startups only in that University I mean we talking about a university that has over 600 startups just one University it's very fascinating what is happening in India and I started going to India around 1999 when I go there now I mean I went to India the first time I didn't want to go back when I go now I want to be in India I want to stay in India you know this is how India is really moving but as to why and what are the conditions what are the policies what is the environment that dictates that particular trajectory I I suppose you can inform us better or we can we can do some more homework I think that was the last question Prof [Music] hello see I do a lot [Music] of and each time I see lot ofation people people from everywhere doing thear I feeling that each time it's being more difficult to hide knowledge is becoming free fory even Enterprise cannot hide anymore the know you see the sanctions trying to make China not Advance teolog they Advance much quick we down with without without and I am having this feeling that for for example off plac in Shina for people follow all over the world to study there the American have doing this for decades decades a lot of people study in America even the Russian people study in America in in England and uh I I would like to see your view we are talking about technology but techology is something for people go there nowadays people say don't want to go out of China they when they go abroad they all come backen all over the world from the people not for the compan if you learn come back you can apply it i' like see your connect we can develop whatever we want I see bys uh people connect each other in dependent of the Poli that's my thank you very much Prof um Prof you spoke about natural resources uh and countries using those for public and then we touched a bit on the DLC uh so I just wanted to know your views with regards to African countries and a lot of other post Colonial States uh that have all the vast natural resources that a country could have uh but somehow there still not much development and there's still no stability and even countries like South Africa that one could say they are stable you could also argue that the stability is not sustainable because the gap between the hes and the Have Nots continues to widen so what what is the what would be the best way forward for these countries to leverage their resources um uh for economic growth uh but also economic growth that that does not promote inequalities like how it's happening in most countries what is the best way forward and what are these countries not doing right if there is anything that they are not doing right why are they not able to these resources um hello professor thank you very much for your lecture uh I have a I have a doubt in my mind uh I wanted to discuss with you uh about uh information security so as uh we see about uh how technology is advancing how in the future do you think that countries will manage uh their own information like for example information regarding their citizens for examp example uh because like right now it is very apparent that um most of the countries they heavily rely on Google services which we know like it pertains to a certain nation and it's uh it can actually be controlled to that nation's favor depending on how it's used right technology is uh an instrument by it depends on the user actually so uh China in this aspect is already has already shut itself off of it and it's developing its own system to protect this data and also uh to do its own uh how can I say re research on technology development uh and I believe maybe Russia is doing something similar uh so in the future are we destinate to like uh separate somehow from this uh Global Information System or do you think there is a possibility for uh countries to like come together in a global uh internet and information sharing system that also protects their own privacy thank you okay I think that was it uh uh profor Elon your question is a bit broad but it's it's an important one about knowledge production and the duplication of efforts across the world people searching in same same phenomena but sometimes not collaborating sometimes collaborating and yeah I mean I I I was just running I think last week and the week before I was running some biometric analysis of on energy from the bricks countries only um and there is very fascinating Publications that you see even almost identical titles identical topics um and and there is quite a lot a lot that is a perhaps the big question is not the question of dicating efforts it's the question of ownership of know who owns the know who beneficiate this knowledge who commercializes this who's sponsoring this knowledge to start with I think I think those are those are important questions we ought to be dealing with and if you were to look at who publishes the global S I mean automatically you will see Thomson Reuters comes up are we are we happy that is happening I mean we that's why we at one stage we started talking about open source and all of this now are we happy that we data using our funds investing our funds in doing our research and at the end of the day we SE that publication to tomson WR us and we pay the page fee for that matter shouldn't Thomson be paying us for giving them this information maybe they should be paying us because we are the ones who are generating the information are doing the work you know and they sell they sell the end product and the scholars the academics the researchers who are doing a lot of this work are usually poor like you you know so so this is a this is a big challenge it's a question I mean we went to we started talking about open source and we started publishings and open source journals I mean in South Africa it's very expensive to publish in an open source Jour you would have thought that open source means free publication it's not it's extremely expensive of course they will say this is just a once off payment but still it's a lot of money the amount of money that our University for spent annually on page fees and all those open source it goes into millions and millions of US Dollars and if you multiply that by all universities and all research organizations not only the global s but worldwide this is a serious Injustice that is been perpetuated by these publishing houses and I don't see anybody talking about it I don't see any governments doing anything about it uh yeah so I don't have unfortunately unfortunately now you spoke about the the the natural resources you know about the the resource Cas Theory those did economics know about the and and you know about the Chima wrote about about this the lady from Zambia she wrote about eight dead eight so there are quite a lot of Publications that have put together about the the resource case now resources natural resources usually attract very bad attention unfortunately and therefore majority of the third world countries rich in natural resources are usually worse of than those without resources in terms of wars and poverty ging coefficiency whatever factors you would want to use in terms of looking at the well of the well the wellbeing of the the people the index um so so yes South Africa has the highest G coefficiency in the world we surpassed Brazil a few years ago and we remain there majority of black South Africans don't have a job don't have opportunities and to them the world is the Outlook is very B so does DRC if you look at the tycoons coming from Israel investing in DRC check who extracting from DRC just just go and do a quick check who is extracting from the [Music] DRC H you will be very shocked ER this brown TR from baso the new general took over he stopped all Bing concessions with the with the with the French he stopped the law I suppose that's why they wanted to immediately I think he has escaped three assassinations of it so because he understands the importance of natural resources and if you move to nationalize I mean you will be a subject of discussion on the UN General I don't see South Africa doing any time and and I don't even believe that maybe nationalization is the most appropriate thing to do I don't know for sure there are there are countries where nationalization has work there are countries where it has fade dis so which economic methodology you use it's a very important question to ask yourself but uh of course being endowed with these natural resources is important provided you are able to use to the benefit of City a lot of countries oh I know Indonesia has decided to um should we say nationalize the production of n now you cannot they don't export legal out of Indonesia you have to beneficiate within within Indonesia and I think that's that's that's where we should be moving generally so that the gold of Africa and the Diamonds of South Africa should be beneficiated within South Africa I traveled a few months ago from the north to Deon to the city of Deon and I counted more than a thousand trucks carrying coal going to the port because this coal is going to Europe H to Germany and to France everybody needs the Cal because they don't have the gas from Russia they need our Cod and they say we should dismantle the power stations the coal power stations and move to Green energy I mean I don't know I don't know what to say um and then lastly you spoke about information security yes this is this is very important now information security is important for individual citizens it's equally important for countries and for corporates however without very good policies that are enabling to secure I mean this is why in the US there is this talk about whether this is just a r or whether it is real that Tik Tok is able to mine data in the back door and give it to the Chinese authorities I don't know but this is a very important question we need to guarantee that data will be safeguarded and will not be used against individuals unnecessarily so you need to have favorable conditions to get that going and I mean what Julian Assange did for exposing the US and the atrocities in Afghanistan and in Iraq whether that was a public good or whether that was a security bridge I don't know I I really can't say the surveillance that the Chinese are purported to be carry out against their own citizens I don't know so there are a lot of question marks but security is fundamental I mean you cannot have a thriving democracy where people are able to act and conduct themselves ER without fear ER and and they've got cameras looking on them every day every movement I don't I don't think it is fair I don't think it's okay but you also don't want your government to be perpetuating atrocities abroad and you do not know about it and you are financing those atrocities I also equally don't think that is fair so there are there are there are a lot of gaps there are a lot of question marks that ought to be interrogated ER in order to guarantee fairness and to guarantee human rights equality and to make sure that there is mutual respect all over the glob hi again Professor uh just to clarify on the nickel uh in Indonesia they didn't nationalize it incentive it being done by state owned companies it's actually now dominated the nickel process and is dominated by Chinese companies and so I only want to bring that up because it maybe touches on a point about cooperation within the bricks so you can have industrial upgrading maybe through these export bands they go in rassi in Indonesian and they're actually trying to extend them to other minerals but you also have to be able to finance your own local production uh otherwise you end up with a FBI from another country take the profits out they don't share the technology and it's the same thing that's happened so I was wondering in terms of inter inter uh to cooperation among Brits Nations is there any kind of because obviously Indonesia is not in the Brits you know is there any kind of mechanism or discussion of how these kind of uh this kind of type of FDI can be avoided the the kind of that doesn't benefit the domestic economy and the human capabilities and keep the money in the country okay hello I would like to ask you if you can also highlight U the factor of heterogenity I mean a country that have a heterogeneous population in terms of ethnicity language or religion for example in the Indonesian case the Javanese are the dominant group they 50% of the population and somehow during when it was a Dutch Colony the Japanese also got somehow prominent and after it became Independence so Japanese specified other ethnic or linguistic or religious groups and this also had happened maybe in several other countries but in those countries where these issues were not resolved for example in Pakistan for examp so this issue is still persist or maybe in the case of Africa which which you may know better so how these this specific element also make it more difficult for the development so I mean the colonization of course it exist we cannot deny that but in those countries where particular ethnic group didn't became dominant over others or particular linguistic group maybe in the case of Iraq we have seen this uh sarian divide uh which also prevented Iraq from being a highly developed country despite having a huge reserve of H I mean it was even ahead of Saudi Arabia in the early 20th century so maybe you can also highlight this aspect in the case of Africa conations to thanks that's it and oh so that that will be the last I suppose I don't know thank [Music] you thank you your presentation I have general question about braks maybe um I want to know how individual countries relationships with the US like for example China trade war and maybe uh Russia sanctions and other individual countries relationships with the US are affecting how the bricks is working and its integration maybe there have some say about this uh second one well uh I also would like to know how much uh the bricks member countries are politically willing to work to help each other uh in you know usually I mean they're trying to come up with alternative uh logs of trade finance and other things which may be challenging the existing Pony of the West and that would be very much problem to others and they will retaliate and that's happening and I think I don't see that that much political will be within the bricks country so with this situation will bricks be sustainable and effective and maybe there are more countries like my country Ethiopia who which are joining the bricks and I mean if they join the bricks what would be different for them like will I mean it's it's going to be uh moving from maybe one uh dominant country to another one and something like that I don't know how B will help development of these countries and maybe if you have have something to say about this so thank you very much thank you thank you so [Music] much yeah okay we we will we will have conversations let me close with this one um so the first question you asked regards the export bed rather it's a comment really um the export export ban by Indonesia and the Chinese beneficiating within within Indonesia itself yeah I think this is the point that is very critical in that as we substitute one the Germanic Power by another we are not necessarily moving forward a but I think a move in it side that says all beneficiation should happen within the country is already a positive one unlike exporting all the raw materials out of the country because in terms of er taxation in terms of uh employment and many other indicators you you already benefit by exerting that bay H but we we did not stop there we need to make sure that the companies that operate are the local companies I think that is that is very fundamental as far as concern and the same can be said not only of Indonesia you will know that the West African countries boycotted the coko ass iation meeting some two years ago because they export nearly is it 60% of the C from West Africa going to Belgium Switzerland and and if you look at what happens the the the slavery out of the C plantations in West Africa is really shocking but those countries have now said in now we are not going to send the Coco to Belgium we want to beneficiate here locally we want new trade agreements H with the companies Lesley and and others that are coming for these resources in West Africa I think that is fundamental and the same should be said for all countries of the world otherwise we perpetuate the resource Cas theory that all you do is give us material and nothing accr to you except the few corrupt leaders who are given a few pocket monies you know ER we need to make sure that we create jobs we generate taxes and we our wealth work for us to the benefit of our Nations so the same should be said for all our our countries honestly I recall I think it was 2017 was it 2017 when we had Goa Brits conference Summit and we had discussion Fierce discussion H you will see that when academics sit around the table and trying to entertain politics we become very radical and we say no no no no no we need to make this is when we were crafting the Declaration we said no no no no we want make sure that bricks countries do not export raw materials we must beneficiate within bricks the Minister of India because the minister must read these declarations before they finalized the minister said no no no we are not doing it's too radical we need to walk baby steps and get somewhere otherwise we are going to attract unnecessary attention and it will be detrimental to the very objective we want to achieve so I think I think the intent is there but we need we need to indeed work those baby SKS the next question you asked was heterogenity well is it's a big challenge it's a big Challenge from religious from a a a a ethnic group dominant ethnic group point it's it's and it's everywhere or it's in most count many countries I mean it is obviously a dominant factor in as you know although it is a fact that has always been there as far as South Africa is concerned I lived in Johannesburg for a very long time and I come from a small ethnic group so now when I was in Joan as a young kid a school going kid I could not speak my native in I would speak Zulu when I was in in J because it's a dominant group and and at this juncture because of because there are many foreigners in Johannesburg and the surrounding areas now now it has become the Rivalry between the Nationals and the foreigners and there is not a race question unfortunately so it's not about white versus black it's black against black it's Nigerians it's somalis Pakistani and and South Africans because White Privilege still dominates if you were white in South Africa you could set shop anywhere do whatever you want by and large so so so this is an important question it ought to be addressed directly with the necessary policies policy instruments because it can escalate as we have seen in Randa but we should also remember that a lot of it in some of our countries as is the case with Rwanda was fored by the colonial ER that they choose a particular group and say you manage everybody else and and hatred between between these different ethnic groups escalates so as I said it has to be managed with the right instruments and purposefully so that it doesn't escalate out of but it is usually also in for by lack of resources and opportunities I mean the diversity of groups in the USA historically has worked very well to the benefit of the US of course now it is becoming an issue because opportunities are not overwhelming there is unemployment now you go to Chicago and Detroit you will see so many homeless and you will see all of these challenges so those who are Nationals they they look upon these foreigners coming from Bolivia and everywhere they think oh you are here for the job that should have been so so these are these are international dyam and of course they every as I said they have to be managed purposefully with the right instruments um the last question you asked was oh the relationship with us whether the relation the individual relationships with us in formed and influence the Dynamics within the bricks and it does I think um the relationship between China and the US is the most corrosive one the relationship between India and the US has an effect in as far as the relationship between India and China is concerned and of course I generally think the US would love that relationship between India and China to get we they would they would love that if I was an American policy so so the relationship between the small countries like South Africa and Brazil to some extent between us and and and and the US is highly managed well managed because we are aware of this power dynamics and we don't want to unnecessarily perturbed the superpowers I mean the US is no longer the biggest trading partner of South Africa but if you have been observing the recent elections you would have seen how that plays into the psyche of the electorate in South Africa and the most important question that was being flagged all the time the sentiment of the investors you know and who is the investors when people say investors they mean the USA in our context it might no longer be the case but in our context when you say investors you me so you need to GA investors because if the investor is not happy with the outcome of the election then then you wonder whether we we going into elections to please the what is the purpose of the El so so these are very interesting question uh so yes these power dynamics are important and the relationship between the it is not only between the individual countries from the US but equally with Europe the European Union to a lesser degree you and and I mean the whole objective to start with is not to perur the US and to be nasty to the Europeans is that we have a friendly good laborin relations where we can trade fairly and unfortunately those conditions never Prevail we are never Toe to Toe in as far as trade is concerned we there is always subjugation of the weaker and therefore it becomes very complicated uh you also spoke about perhaps I answered the posture how how is bricks helping each other as countries I mean the the Practical example I spoke about India if you go to the Declarations of bricks you will see there are a few where we talk about trade between the bricks Nations ER favorable trade policies Tex free import export between nations and now we are talking about the common currency so there are there are a lot of things positive that we talk about ER most of which are not ER been practiced as yet but uh I think I think there is also a go a global protest I I would want to say that there are a lot of countries who want to join brids not because because they foresee immediate benefits but because they don't want to be in the other club or to be in the out cold and they hope that together we can help each other protect each other and so on and so forth some of those claims might be mythical yeah so it's yeah it's tough um if countries join bricks what would they benefit I think I I spoke about that to a large degree yeah so there are some benefits in as far as trade and so on but we need to quantify we are researchers we must look at whether some of these policies whether some of these declarations have been put into practice and what are the table benefits that have accured out of this policies between the bricks countries themselves H you can safely say that trade between the countries has grown tremendously there is data there are figures between Russia and China between Russia and India between Africa and China India and Russia trade has gr tremendously over the years between the countries it it does suggest that there is something happening that that configuration thank you thank you very
2024-09-14 10:35
