Cities Simulate Climate Change with Mapping Technology
Hello., hello everyone. Welcome to our webinar today on Cities Simulate Climate Change with Mapping Technology. My name is Taisha Fabricius and I'm the product manager for ArcGIS CityEngine and the 3D/XR Technology Leader and Technology Advocate at Esri, and I'm super excited, super excited and extremely humbled to be moderating this livestream today because it's a topic that's very dear to me and also a topic that I'm guessing is very dear to you too or you wouldn't be here, but a topic that should be dear to us all because it's affecting us all on a global scale. Climate change is a global challenge and it impacts different regions in unique ways and the effects of climate change vary depending on where you are. Some areas in the world face increased vulnerabilities to wildfires or air pollution and things like that. And then you have others that grapple with sea-level rise and flooding.
And so in today's LinkedIn Live event, we've gathered together some fantastic expert, fantastic city leaders who who are going to share their insights and their experiences on how they're preparing and protecting their communities from the effects of climate change. So we're going to explore today things like the latest advances in visualization technology, in digital mapping, in GIS software, all of these things that enable cities to simulate and understand the potential impacts of climate change. And then through all these innovative tools, cities are able to develop strategies to enhance resilience, to mitigate risks, and to create these sustainable solutions. Because, yeah, let's, let's face it, we are already too late in actively pursuing change.
But, better late than never. Because if we don't plan now, the future unfortunately is looking pretty bleak. Luckily, though, we have people who are really actively pursuing this.
And so I really, really am looking forward to the opportunity today to learn from our wonderful speakers, from our experts who are at the forefront of climate change adaptation. First up, we have George McLeod. George is a spatial data scientist, oceanographer and educator at Old Dominion University.
And then we have Alan Clinton, who is the administrative planning officer at the County of Kauai. So thank you both so much for joining us here today. We really, really appreciate it.
today we really want to delve deeper into the obstacles, into the hurdles that the two of you have encountered in your respective cities. You're based in different parts of the world, And these these climate change... climate change, it presents these unique and evolving challenges. And obviously each city has its own set of circumstances, its own set of vulnerabilities.
I'd like to hear from you both then about the real world challenges that you're facing and then the innovative solutions that you're implementing. So, George, I'm going to start with you. Can you please share some of the key challenges that you've encountered in your city? Sure. Thanks Taisha for having us here and hosting this workshop and really giving us the platform to share the experience of our community and the work that we're doing to try to mitigate some of these issues. our university and our community, flooding from storms and sea level rise is literally an existential threat.
Old Dominion is in the center of Norfolk, Virginia, which is in nestled in a much larger metropolitan community of about just under 2 million people. And the entire community sits just above sea-level. Really. Most of our homes and workplaces are within feet of the high tide line, 10 - 12 feet, which is not much given storm surge.
And so we're grappling with how we address this issue for our livelihood, our work, our transportation. And Norfolk is also home to the world's largest naval base. We have about 15 different Department of Defense facilities in the area and one of the East Coast most major ports.
And so when you combine that infrastructure and resource, it really is a critical threat not only to our area and our homes, but the region and the nation. Now unfortunately, Norfolk in our region is one of the most vulnerable to sea-level rise in the entire country. The land is subsiding while the water is coming up and the frequency of sunny day high tide flooding has been steadily increasing over the past decades and is forecast to continue to increase into the future. And since this literally is an existential threat for our university, you're seeing some of the pictures on the screen.
That's our university football stadium and our downtown area with sea-level projected, I think out to the year 2100, it's really incumbent upon us to focus our attention and our efforts on using our skills, geospatial technology, visualizations, mapping, modeling to help our community address these risks that we're facing. And so that's essentially where we're at. So obviously, what we've seen here, it's an absolutely fantastic example of the wonderful work that you're doing using GIS. But even more specifically, even using 3D technology and this sort of more immersive technology and how that's facilitating a better understanding of climate risk. And I think we can really see the power of of harnessing data, harnessing the right data, being able to visualize this data again, in this immersive, comprehensive and and effective way. so I guess on that note, I'm going to pivot over to Alan.
Let me hand over to you now, Alan, because I know you've also put together some really important visuals to better understand these climate concerns. So why don't you start now with sharing your challenges with us? thank you so much for having me here today. Broadly speaking, sort of the question that has been facing us here at Kauai is how do we best prepare Kauai for the hazards of the 21st century and beyond? And more particularly, as a planner embedded here within our planning department, is asking the question of how do we take future future hazard data, such as the information that George just shared with you, and bake them into our regulatory planning framework as requirements rather than just recommendations? So for years now we've been using historic data sets such as the FEMA Flood Program or even our Shoreline Setback Ordinance here on Kauai as the source of authority for a variety of our policies. The FEMA Food Program, many of you folks are probably aware of, uses historic storm events as the official data source to require mitigative action in the built environment.
Our Shoreline Setback Ordinance is an example of using historic shoreline data to require the relocation of new structures away from our dynamic coastlines. But what we are presenting to you folks here today is something known as the Sea Level Rise Constraint Districts, which was our first attempt at a comprehensive effort countywide to take information about future conditions, not historic data, but future conditions, modeled conditions, and bake them into our planning framework to mitigate structures and accommodate future flooding waters associated with sea-level rise. So to rewind the clock a little bit to about six years ago, a research team at the University of Kauai published something known as Lorexa, which is the sea-level rise exposure area. And those that report had models associated with it with passive flooding and high wave run-up models that have that are predicting these hazards to impact our communities well out into the 21st century and beyond. And the Sea Level Rise Constraint District was our effort to incorporate those data into our regulatory framework and require folks to elevate their structures in line with these future hazards rather than just historical historical hazards that are currently being utilized in our existing framework. So you mentioned policy, you mentioned framework.
how are location mapping and visualizations, how are they important to tackling these concerns? I mean, I think that's absolutely critical and key, especially when we're going through the process of adoption and ongoing implementation of these types of bills and policies. Due to the complexity of this data, it was absolutely critical that we create a wrap-around of technology tools to not only display the data in a visually pleasing and useful format, but also for ongoing implementation. We developed a series of tools, wrap-around tools, using Esri’s Experience Builder tool so that those in our community and the architectural community and the legal community who are creating applications, filing for permits, can immediately digest that information, either take it directly into their systems for georeferencing CAD drawings, or they can create PDF printouts and reports of this data, incorporate into their zoning permits in their applications. And it's kind of funny actually and amusing. We were in the process of moving through our public hearing processes, our council meetings, and the only time we were actually asked to create a hard copy map, we actually made, I actually made a small little mistake with misnumbering some pages.
And so it's actually our visual online digital tools that did a much better job communicating the data rather than hard copy maps. And one thing that we are also tiptoeing into with the sea-level rise bill is formally codifying into law these digital assets and these maps. Very regularly, whenever we post any GIS data, we oftentimes have a disclaimer that says “this is for reference purposes only”, but our planning director made the choice to actually define the Instant App Viewer in the law. And so that is actually an authoritative source of information, a digital asset using Esri Instant Apps, as the authoritative source of data to communicate these hazards as a reference tool for ongoing implementation and policy adoption. this is huge, right? And it's a really, really vital step that needs to be taken in order to protect our coastlines, right? let's head back to George. how's the work that you're doing tackling those concerns in planning and in policy as well with with the use of technology? Yeah, I think it's so important that Alan's talking about policy and rulemaking because, you know, the visualizations are so they can be so impactful and persuasive.
But it really requires that policy and change in law to effect change in the community. And what we had historically heard from a lot of the planners in our region is that much of the information on flooding in particular in the area was anecdotal. And by that I mean it would be a report of someone saying they had to drive around flood waters on their way to work or they'd share over the water cooler that, you know, last weekend the floodwater was halfway up my driveway. And that's great information, but it's not actionable data. And so one of the early goals of our team was to turn that anecdotal information into data that that can be used to either to create visualizations or inform planners or municipal leaders in some way, whether it's through a visualization or a map or whatever mechanism we want. our goal has been increasingly to use sensors and modeling to try to paint that picture of what the future looks like.
And so what you're seeing now is, is an animation that takes us through the year from 2020 to 2100 or beyond. It shows the steady creep of sea-level rise in our area. And this would not be storm flooding.
It will be the new high tide line. So anything you see in blue is going to be the new high tide line in this area, downtown Norfolk and Portsmouth, Virginia. And you'll really see it start to pop in 2060, 70, 80 and beyond. And flood waters encroach increasingly on our communities, our high value assets, and create this real challenge for us. And I think using these types of tools and visualizations allows planners to really hone in on those critical areas and create effective policy rather than policy that is informed just by that anecdotal information. And like what, like Alan has suggested, he's had some real successes and wins in their area.
The state of Virginia has relied on models like this and visualizations to start building out some new rules. In particular, there, there's a rule prohibiting development of new state-owned infrastructure in the floodplain without consideration of sea-level rise, without some mitigation impacts or or elevation constraints built into that construction. And another big win was the finally, I think in 2019, real estate transactions must disclose if a property is a repetitive flood loss property. And that's something that was miraculously missing on the books for years because folks did not want to disclose that a property was a repetitive flood loss property.
And that's a huge win for citizens in the Commonwealth and it's something we hope is adopted around the country. Yeah, I mean, so even just just going back to the to the last visual we saw, right. Really seeing how the impact, what the impact is over time, that is that at least happens in my mind. Like I you know, you can see what's happening. You can see where it’s hitting and so it's yeah it's it's really great work that you're doing and you obviously you're going into the future visually there. But let's also now go into the future a little bit in general.
So I think, yeah, we're, we're all aware that right now technologically we're really moving at an exceptionally rapid pace. There is so much stuff happening out in the tech world at the moment with with real-time visualization, with with A.I. of course. There's there's so much happening across the board and it's obviously then also changing the way that we map today. So I'll stay with you, George, for a second.
How how are you using Esri tech, maps, models, Game Engines, things like that? How are you using those tools to shape your future plans? Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, you mentioned this rapid pace of technical technological development, and that's the fun thing about my job and my team. My team's job is that, you know, we part of our role is to look at these advanced technologies and ask the question, what can I do with this? How can I use the latest, greatest technology to try to help my community adapt to climate change, and in this case, flooding and sea-level rise? And the genesis of all this, it's really been an evolution. And the genesis started with 2D mapping and modeling. So we're using maps to say, where is the where is the flooding now? Where is the flooding going to be? That evolved into into 3D maps and modeling, where we're taking those same 2D images and turning it into a 3D representation of where the flood is and not only where it is, but how deep it will be and how deep it will be today, in 20 years and 40 years, 100 years.
And what you're looking at now is a representation of an area in downtown Norfolk, sea-level rise, I think around the year 2100 without any mitigating infrastructure and the color coded, you know, boxes around the buildings denote a certain level of vulnerability to flooding and sea-level rise, with red being the highest and yellow being slightly lower and gray being not impacted. And what we want to do is use these technologies, so technologies like ArcGIS Pro and 3D scene building and extending that in the CityEngine as well. And whatever technologies we can get our hands on to better to create this informed picture of what the cityscape might look like and then to model potential mitigating infrastructure like the Norfolk Seawall.
And this is a this isn't a photorealistic model of that seawall. It will look very different. Actually. The seawall isn't a isn't intended to be a large gray wall. It's a it's a it's a mixed structure that will blend into the environment.
But when we model the protective effect of that seawall, we can see behind that those gray buildings aren't colored anymore, which means they would not be impacted by future sea-level rise flooding if that wall were in place. So we want to step to that level and then step even beyond into the world of extended reality, XR and VR, where we're transporting users into a scene. So this would be a case, Norfolk, and this is a case of the Portsmouth Marine Terminal, which is also in that near in that area downtown across from downtown Norfolk, where we can transport a user into a 3D flooded scene and show them what the potential future might look like to drive home that impact a little more. This particular site that you're looking at is the home of Virginia wind energy staging for our offshore wind energy industry.
And so it's really critical that they understand the potential threat of flooding and sea-level rise to that that staging site. So the idea, again, is to use this stack of technologies to keep pushing into a more informed operational picture that we can then turn over to planners and engineers so that they can they can better adapt and adjust plans and help our community. Thanks. Thank you for that, George. I think yeah, it's obviously it's great to see what you're doing.
It's great to hear and exciting to hear how you're driving Community insight and research with these kind of, I'm going to say, like deeper immersive experiences. And obviously, I mean, yes, it is, again, as you said, existential crisis, global crisis that we're facing. But it is giving us or we're able to see how using technology, it's not just something novel like, you know, going into virtual reality or some sort of extended reality. It's not just something novel that is cool to have, but it is actually something that transports the user, transports the stakeholder, into somewhere else to give them a real feeling of the impact that something will have, some sort of change in policy could have, and I mean that is that is that is more than just cool that is that is game changing. I'm going to say. I completely agree and I feel like if we can help folks like Alan do his job better and craft policy that helps us all, that then mission accomplished, really.
Right, yeah then we're on, we're on a better path, that's for sure. Absolutely. So then, Alan, let's let's get your take on all of this. Obviously yeah, it's great to see what George is doing on his side.
But then for you, what is the county of Kauai doing in terms of technology? How are you using technology to shape future plans? Yeah, absolutely. So there's kind of two additional things I want to touch on on this front as far as future planning efforts go. We are absolutely interested in moving forward from our 2D maps to a 3D environment. We are looking forward to launching in the next couple of months a Game Engine environment where we evaluate some coastal properties with our sea-level rise, constraint district data and create an immersive experience where people can demo those structures and relocate them to the appropriate location based off of our coastal erosion information and then elevate those structures so that people can see what how a potential parcel would be affected by these future hazards. And another thing I just want to highlight too, is the ongoing discussion between planners and members of the academic community, such as George, who are putting together these models. It's absolutely critical that we continue to flesh out and see what is the best relationship between members of the academic community and planners such as myself, so that we can not only we want to be prepared so that when the data is is made available by modelers and members of the scientific community, we can take that information and bake it more rapidly into our planning framework.
And that's something that we're going to continue to explore, is as we create these policies, we expect to take the latest and greatest science and incorporate them into our policies. And so that's the other element of this ongoing discussion is what is our best relationship and what do you how do you best navigate the relationship between government and academic practitioners in the space of modeling and taking that information as it becomes available and moving it into the regulatory framework. We have, with our Shoreline Setback Ordinance, we've already once already updated those data based on newer projections, and we expect, as we get more information about atmospheric modeling, hydrological modeling, that we plan to do similar types of policy to protect our communities from those larger storm events, which tend to be the most costly to property and human lives. So something that I just picked up in what you were saying then is, is the value of collaboration, right? Like we we all need to work together on this, whether it's the people out there collecting the data, the people who are dealing with the data, the people making the laws and the regulations.
Like we all need to be pulling together to change, I'm going to say like the status quo, and obviously coming from a technology company perspective as well, I do think that that technology really can also like it is and it should be and can also be a vessel to bring in all of these different parties together, right? So that we are speaking from one common place and and a data-driven place, right? And I think that's that's really, really important. I guess at this point, let's move on to some audience Q&A. So question to both of you, are we considering digital twin AI, GenAI, to mitigate climate change? This is a good one.
I can go first crack. I'll be quick. There's so much discussion about AI on all fronts in the university space. You know, I think it started with, you know, how how do we stop students from cheating with AI, and then it went into everything else. But on this particular topic, we are we are definitely developing digital twins of sorts. And, you know, and that term can mean a lot of different things. We we have a couple of different projects that are digitally twinning certain aspects of our community.
But you know, developing a full physical attribute digital twin of a city is quite a monumental task. But we're making little efforts in that direction. And that digital twin might include socioeconomic data for a community that we then intersect with flooding and and do some predictive modeling. So that is absolutely happening.
We have not integrated that with any GeoAI yet, but I've been trying desperately to, with back channel Esri communications to get the inside intel on what's going on with Esri GeoAI and I'm sure there's big things to come and we're looking forward to integrating that those tools whenever they're available. Yeah. So definitely, obviously it's something that we are heavily taking into consideration as well now because there is so much potential there if it's if it's done right, right? Alan, do you have any do you have any additional remarks on that? Yeah, I think the only thing I'd add is in sort of in the spirit of geodesign and designing our communities in a manner consistent with geographical landscapes, cultural landscapes, we realize that as more data is being made available, we're going to need a variety of technology tools to sift through that information and figure out what's the best way to proceed. And so we're still at the infancy of that at the level of policy crafting from a lot of the large datasets that we have access to, but especially because Kauai is a bit of a rural community, a lot of the data sets that are usually made available nationwide we don't necessarily have access to here in here on Kauai. And so for a lot of the things like procedural modeling for digital twins, we have to start from closer to scratch on some of those elements. And so we do a little bit more of the 3D modeling in-house and then using tools like CityEngine in the associated add-ons and AI tools.
I think we can build from there to help communicate a lot of these policies going forward. Great. We have lots more questions, so I'm going to move on. This one’s for George specifically.
Do we know the percentage of flooded area in Norfolk by 2018? I do have some reports with that number in it. I don't have them right at my fingertips, but I would say this the percentage of total land area is not necessarily that great. It's not like we're going to see 60, 80% or even 40% of the land area underwater by 2080. But that's not really the issue. The issue is that a lot of important, critical infrastructure is located near the water and may be vulnerable by the year 2080 or even before. In addition to transportation networks.
So even if an area is not vulnerable, if the transportation network is impacted, then you have a cascading flow of problems. You know, people that can't get to work. Soldiers and sailors, they can't get to the military bases. And and it decreases readiness, operational readiness and hospital facilities. And you can just imagine the long list of things that are impacted by coastal flooding. And it's not necessarily always about the percentage of area that's flooded.
But I will say that the impacts are significant and we've done some dollar calculations and have a few reports out there as well. So that's a that's a short answer, I guess. Okay, then, Alan, I'm going to send this one your way. What advice can you offer to somebody who wants a future career in your area? So the fun thing about planning is you can approach it from many different angles. The idea of being able to take information, model data and incorporate it into sort of government processes is something that we're exploring actively right now. What I would say...
The planning field is rapidly evolving. Technology is becoming a much more centralized focus, but man, there's there's so many different routes you can go so many different venues. I, my background is in geography and city and regional planning, but we're seeing a lot more focus on the computer sciences in the crossover from the computer science space and applications of technology. The main reason why I think I'm here as a planner is how do we best take the scientific information that's available and communicate it effectively and turn it into policy? And so I think policy communication is something key and critical that we struggle with collectively as a society, and that is another route I think you can sort of approach some of these discussions in the interest of developing a career, is how do you best communicate science, what are the proper venues and where the proper routes? And so I think that you can come at this space from a very many different directions, from the planning space, the computer science space, or even the policy space and the communication space. So it's very variable. It's a matter of focusing on what you're specifically interested in, I think moving forward in that space.
I think that's valid, especially the last thing you said, focus on something that you're specifically interested in. I think that's that's very important. George, do you have any do you have any words of wisdom on that front? You know, I'll just add an exponent behind the communication piece. You know, so often in research and science communities, we find that if the science is beautiful and excellent and it's not communicated well, it falls flat. And so in whatever pathway you follow, whether it's one towards planning or to geospatial technology, strengthen those communication skills because it's so critical to tell your story, whatever story that is.
And and I think that applies across the board no matter the discipline and it's going to increase your effectiveness in whatever field a field that you're in. Now, I think that's that's great advice. We need to have a little bit of time so I'm going to just continue to ask some of these questions that I can see here.
Are any of you aware of any examples of work being done in mitigating climate change outside of the US? So I can quickly start to tackle this one a little bit. It's an interesting discussion. It's a bit challenging one to move off of.
You can see the flags behind me, the state of Hawaii flag to my right and the United States flag to my left. There you go. And a lot of the conversations that we are having are very specific and tailored to the policy and the political framework that we operate in or are confined to here in the United States. The reason why we are moving in the direction we are is because we did find a pathway that successfully navigated the science and we're able to move it between the county charter, the State of Hawaii Constitution, and also fall within what is legal within the context of the United States Constitution. And so this policy that we adopted, the Sea Level Rise Constraint District is very specific and tailored to a U.S. context.
But I know there's some amazing work being done globally on this front as well. But as far as what we're discussing here on Kauai, it would be a little bit it would be a little bit hard to export this specific type of policy to a different location simply because of the policy mechanics. But in short, the policy is quite simple. It's you have model predictions for passive flooding and high wave run up, and we're just asking you to elevate those structures. So that paradigm could be quite easily transferred, while the legal mechanisms on the background are a little bit more specific and tailored to location.
George, do you have any additional remarks? Yes. So I'm aware of quite a number of climate risk, flooding risk adaptation projects and work efforts that are going on outside of the country. And what I the constant refrain I hear from colleagues that are working outside the country is how lucky we have in the United States. And because of the abundance of data, you know, we have certainly challenges and sometimes it's the regulatory framework that's the challenge or the bureaucratic framework that we're working within right? But in terms of data access and our federal partners like NASA and NOAA, we've just finished a NASA workshop earlier this week, that the products and resources that they they provide are just amazing and really speaking to colleagues doing work outside of the country.
That concept is really highlighted. And so I'm very thankful for that. And in that sense, we try to help partners and I believe NASA really is trying to extend their reach more globally to help, you know, to help this problem globally, understanding that climate change risk does not stop at an artificial drawing border on a map.
Like our city borders. You know, the flood will cross the city border without second thought. And so I think the approach is increasingly the same way from, you know, from our agencies, too so...
I think you you without realizing you've just segued nicely into, I guess, one of the last questions that we'll tackle today. And it's about data datasets, right, so... The fundamental part of all of this is how do we make these how do we make datasets, these datasets more approachable, more understandable to to laymen, right. In a way that creates more awareness? I can lead off on that one.
This is a kind of one of the less talked about elements of the Sea Level Rise Constraint District that we passed. When you pass a science or data informed hazard layer, it's not going to create nice, pretty straight lines that are easy to understand. More often than not the past, we have special management areas, we have special planning areas, we have all sorts of different overlay districts that require different types of regulations, but when you're using hazard models, you're not going to get nice, pretty straight lines that conform to streetscapes. So this was also one of a first for us at the county.
I'm sure it's occurred in some other areas, I would have to assume. But you use the best data available at the time and our hazard models, they follow all sort of different contours. There is certain right edges in certain areas where the data is not as strong or viable.
And so that was actually a new component that we were a little bit hesitant about as we were moving forward with this with this policy, is how are people going to react when we say, hey, there's flooding hazards and the map shows that there is a right angle between a certain area where most people would not really understand what that means. And so that's something that we're continuing to evaluate in the world of how do we communicate policy, the symbology and how we visualize these different risks. There's a lot of there's a variety of different ways you can do it from a 3D view view, a 2D view. And I think you need to be very mindful of the specific visualization, the specific audience and how you are communicating it. When you go from 2D to 3D, the threshold for expectations on quality and different elements in our experience has seemingly gone through the roof.
And so sometimes it is still best to work with a 2D map, sometimes it's best to use a 3D map. I think it's very important in the effort to communicate data that you right-size the visualization tool to the particular audience. And that's something that in our excitement to move into the 3D space, we do need to be a little bit cautious of. Yeah, I totally agree. Obviously for me as a 3D specialist, I'm going to say I'm inclined to always want to talk about 3D, always going to push 3D, but it is so important to understand who you're talking to, what is the best way to to put this data out there that that obviously yields the best possible results with with all of that.
So, George, you want to add add anything to that as well before? Yeah, I'll just underscore the point that you and Alan are making is that there's no there's no perfect one visualization, right? There's no perfect tool. So why not give them all you know, why not create the information and put it out in several different pathways and channels so that you can meet everybody where they where they live, right? Everyone where they they, they want to receive that information. Someone might need a spreadsheet, you know, someone might need that spreadsheet with dollar values listed in order, you know, And that might be what drives their planning and decision making. And so that's kind of how our team approaches it is let's use these tools at our disposal and create multiple threads that relay the same information to try to try to capture the entire audience. And then I would just end by by saying that that concept of teamwork is so important because sometimes we as let's say I'm an oceanographer and a spatial data scientist, we can work with an expert in communication that can help us understand those pathways a little better. Experts in VR education that can help us adjust our visualizations and models to to better meet people’s psychology.
And I think working as a team on the front end with folks like NOAA and NASA and others, and then with planners in developing these visualizations and then with experts in community outreach on the back end. You know, individually these problems are so huge, there's very little we can do. But collectively, I mean, we have a lot of capacity to address these issues and I'm very optimistic that we’ll do so. I completely agree. And I could talk to you guys for a whole lot longer about all of this, but we're at time for today. So this concludes our live stream for today.
I hope everyone here watching and listening. I hope you've learned a lot from Alan and from George, because I know I certainly have, so thank you both very, very much for taking the time to join us. Alan, what's it now 5 a.m.
where you are? Right. And Alan has been sitting in our greenroom then I think it's 3 a.m his time. So an extra special thank you, Alan, for getting up so early for this. Thank you, George, for being here, very much appreciate it.
And then thank you to everybody out there who joined us today for taking the time out of your day to watch this live stream. And with that, thanks a lot for joining and see you next time. Thanks, everyone.
2023-10-09 09:49
