Cellular Agriculture Part 1 - The Future Of Food | Spring Into STEM
So very warm welcome, my name's Kim and I'm the outreach and communications coordinator for UCL Biochemical Engineering. It's great to have you with us, I hope you're having a great day. We were all just chatting earlier saying that we were very pleased to see some sunshine here in London because although the weather's been good for the last couple of months, it's quite rare to get this level of warmth and sunniness. So just to explain how the session is going to run, I hope you've noticed on the screen below on Zoom, you've got a chat function and you've got a Q&A function.
So, if you have any technical problems, if you can't hear or see us or there's any kind of issues with the interface, let us know in the chat, myself and the panellists will see that throughout the session. We're really looking forward to your questions and you can post them at any point using the Q&A box, it's really helps us if you put your questions in the Q&A box because we can sort of group them up and see what being asked and try maybe see there's some kind of theme to them or it makes a lot easier to process them and some of them I might answer in text. So please use the Q&A box but you can post them at any point throughout the session and you can post them anonymously. So, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to hand over to Petra who's going to introduce Mike and herself. I'm going to turn my camera off but I'll be here in the background if there are any technical problems, I'll step in later towards the session to help with the Q&A. So, Petra, over to you and thank you very much for answering the questions, really appreciate your input.
Okay thank you Kim, I hope everyone can hear me okay. I'm just going to give you a very short introduction about myself and then I'll let Mike tell you about himself, so I am Dr Petra Hanga, I am currently a lecturer in biochemical engineering in the Department of Biochemical Engineering, I have a background in biochemical engineering as well, with a PhD in regenerative medicine and my research is very much focused on bioprocessing of stem cells for different applications. So initially I started working with stem cells and producing stem cells for large scale for cell therapeutics but for about four years now I started doing research in the cell agriculture area and particularly on one of the products that we can produce using cell agriculture, which is cultivated meat. So I am very delighted to be here and talk to you about something that is very close to my heart. Mike over to you for a short introduction.
Thank you, Petra. Hi I'm Mike, I am also a lecturer in biochemical engineering and my background is similar to Petra's, I did my undergraduate degree here at UCL. My research interests all revolve around bioprocessing obviously but mostly with microbial and non-mammalian cell-derived cell culture and I'm basically, Petra and I were going to do a joint talk but Petra knows everything so I'm going to let Petra talk and I'm going to join in at the end for the Q&A, so I will be muting myself and turning the video off until the end of the talk.
Okay. Okay, thank you Michael. Good, well welcome everyone and hopefully you do enjoy this, at the end we'll take questions so do make sure that you do post yours in the Q&A box. Okay, so, in terms of how I structured this lecture, I'm going to go first through a little bit of background so to give you a bit of an idea of what the global challenges are, what the global problems are, then I'm going to go into introducing the emerging field of cellular agriculture, what exactly is it. Then what kind of products we can actually produce using cellular agriculture and I'll go quite a bit into quite a bit of detail into several types of these products and then I'm going to focus a little bit more on one of the products which is cultivated meat.
And I'll go through what is required for producing such a product and then some approaches that can be taken to lowering the cost and basically making these products affordable and then I'm going to conclude with some remarks and we'll end with some of the upcoming events that you can also join and there's actually a continuation of this lecture as well, from a different perspective, from an industrial perspective. So, we all know that the world's population is continuously increasing and it is predicted to be to reach about 10 billion people by 2050, we are now sitting at somewhere around 8 billion people. So, the question becomes how are we going to feed 10 billion people by 2050? And this is so much more important particularly thinking that even today with all the food systems that we have and all the technologies that we have, we still have one in nine people worldwide that are undernourished and actually this number might have actually increased now with the current global events. And we also need to acknowledge the fact that the land that we actually have available is already limited and actually a very high proportion of this is already being used and the majority for animal farming. So, let's talk about intensive animal farming, I mean when we when we talk about animal farming we usually think about animals roaming around on, you know, enjoying the sunshine and enjoying the the grass and so on and being treated well but actually the reality is that in this intensive farming practices that is not really the case, these are more realistic images of what is going on, where basically hundreds and thousands of animals are crowded into very very small spaces. And actually
because of that the risk of transmission of diseases is very very high, so if one animal becomes ill then there's a very high chance that the entire batch of animals will actually become ill, so to avoid that sort of situation that would make these intensive farm companies actually look lose money, the approach that they've taken was to basically feed antibiotics to these animals but that in itself has led to one of the global challenges that we are now facing and that's the antibiotic resistance and the formation of superbugs. There are also a lot of ethical concerns about animal welfare and actually I like this image very very much because it tells you how farming and it has progressed over the years, I mean back in the 1950s a chick only weighted below one kilogram but now we're talking about five-kilogram chicks and actually these modifications of the animals have come yeah surely with you know an increased efficiency in the production of meat but actually the welfare of the animals have been, has been significantly affected. We also need to acknowledge the fact that intensive farming uses a significant amount of natural resources, so about 23 percent of global fresh water and 77 of agricultural land is used just for animal farming alone, those are significant numbers. And in order to achieve that agricultural land, a lot of deforestation had to take place which again has resulted in significant loss of biodiversity. And we also need to acknowledge the fact that animal agriculture produces about 14.5 percent of total greenhouse
gas emissions and those numbers are pretty much the same as what transport worldwide produces, so those are significant numbers. So going back to that question, how are we going to feed 10 billion people by 2050, well it is becoming quite apparent that actually business as usual is not an option anymore. We need a long-term solution that is capable of sustainably, efficiently and safely feeding people, feeding us. So what if we could produce animal products that don't involve foods that don't harm the animals, that don't damage the environment so don't require deforestation and don't cause loss of biodiversity, don't require antibiotics, need less natural resources, particularly significantly less land and produce less greenhouse gas emissions and are more sustainable? So I guess this is where the area of cellular agriculture comes into place. Because cellular agriculture is basically producing animal source products but in a different way, by using cells rather than whole animals like through animal farming.
And the type of products that cellular agriculture can produce are not only food products like meat or milk or egg whites but other products that can also be sourced from animals like leather and silk for example and there are some debates as well about vanilla being a cellular agriculture type product as well even though it is naturally sourced from a plant. So the concept of cellular agriculture actually is not new at all, it was envisioned, it was stated back in the 1930s by visionary people like Sir Winston Churchill and actually he said something which I find a lot of truth in it: 展e shall escape the absurdity of growing a whole chicken in order to eat the breast or wing, by growing these parts separately under a suitable medium." So, this is exactly what cellular agriculture actually is. Is growing those animal products without the animal, without the whole, without actually slaughtering the animal or using the animal to collect those type of products. Right, so I'm going to go now through the different types of products that we can produce and these generally can be classified into categories, they can be acellular products or they can be cellular products. Acellular products are basically, products that are made of molecules, organic molecules like proteins or fats and they don't typically contain cells, yeah, be them live or whole.
So the way we can produce these type of products is by using fermentation, which is very well established combined with recombinant DNA technology which again is very well established and it is used for producing a multitude of products, including other foods as well. So how it works is that you would have a certain type of a host cell that would be engineered to produce a certain protein, targeted protein, and then combined with fermentation so using a seed train to reach the scale that is required that protein would be produced in the quantities required and then it would go into the what is called the downstream processing so purification and processing and formulation of those proteins for whatever application they are intended. So, an example of an acellular products that we can produce is milk, I mean milk is typically, is basically a combination of proteins a protein in particular which is Casein and fats, vitamins etc. So, in the traditional animal agriculture, so in the traditional dairy farms, actually the practices are quite gruesome so the mother cows are kept in a continuous lactating state by being impregnated so they are basically pregnant for 10 out of 12 months and then after they give birth the cows are actually discarded, if they are male they are discarded as pretty much as waste, as trash, so those are very gruesome practices. But what if we could avoid those type of practices by using cellular agriculture? So, it would be a matter of using fermentation and recombinant DNA technology to produce Casein which is the milk protein, produce fats and then combine those together in a certain formulation to give us you know the white liquid that most of us enjoy and use. Another example of an acellular product is actually an enzyme mixture that is used to produce cheese, right, cheese we all like cheese and eat cheese and actually traditionally RENNET was extracted from the stomach of calves which meant that actually those calves needed slaughtering but now today the majority of cheese making is actually using recombinant RENNET that is produced using fermentation and recombinant DNA technology and this was actually the first FDA approved, well actually back in the 1990s the FDA approved the first engineered bacteria that was capable of producing RENNET and thinking about the two production methods for RENNET so the actual extraction from the stomach of calves and the fermentation with recombinant DNA technology, the recombinant RENNET is actually a lot, has higher purities, is actually a lot more consistent and it turns up it's a lot cheaper than the RENNET that is isolated directly from the stomach of calves and it doesn't require the slaughter of those animals either.
So, another type of product, cellular agriculture products that I would like to talk about is the cellular and these are basically as the name pretty much suggests, they are made of actual cells, these can be whole cells or live cells. And you would be surprised to learn that actually these type of products are produced using techniques that we use in healthcare applications from the discipline of tissue engineering. So yeah, so, you might guess from these images that one of these type of products is actually cultivated meat. So, what is cultivated meat? You might have encountered it in the media or in the press under different names so maybe cell-based meat, cultured meat, clean meat lab-grown meat, some even call it synthetic meat even though I don't really, I, well, I actually don't like that term at all because this is not synthetic meat, the idea is that it is genuine animal meat just produced in a different way, is produced without slaughtering the animal, is produced in a controlled environment so in a controlled manner using cultivators also known as bioreactors, it has the same composition as animal meat, will have the same taste and nutritional profile of animal meat and actually because we are producing it in a controlled environment, we can tailor it for improved nutrition, so we could supplement it with various things that we know are good for our health, one of those things being omega-3 oils that are not naturally found in meat but we know they are beneficial to our health. So, thinking about, well thinking about these type of products, they have been a few proof of concepts so far, so it pretty much all started back in 2013, when the first cell-based burger party from Professor Mark Post, a professor at Maastricht University in Netherlands, this was showcased in London actually and that was the first proof of concept of a cultivated meat burger but then since then others have followed, so Memphis Meets showcased their first cell-based meatball, in 2017 Finkess Foods showcased their first cell-based fish party, in Singapore in 2019 Shiok Meets their cell-based shrimp dumpling and closer to home in 2020 Higher Stakes in the UK, they showcased their cell-based bacon and actually even more recently in 2021 another start-up based in the UK Ivy Farm Technologies showcased their cell-based sausage, pork sausage.
And there has been a very very big milestone as well for the industry which was the regulatory approval for commercialization of a cultivated meat product, however that is only found in Singapore, so if you are based in Singapore or you are traveling to Singapore, you would have a chance to actually taste these and these are chicken nuggets, cultivated chicken nuggets from just. So hopefully in the next, this was in December 2020 but we believe, well the rumours are that more products such of these, such as these would actually follow in the next one or two years, so yeah, so definitely keep an eye open on that. So how can we even start to produce cultivated meat or to start thinking about producing cultivated meat? Because obviously it's one of those products that it's still in the concept, there have been proof of concepts but is not readily available yet and you know I've mentioned this briefly the techniques that can be used that, well, that basically will be used for producing cultivated meat come from healthcare applications so tissue engineering so actually the steps in this are pretty similar to that, so you would start with taking a biopsy from, in this case would be from an animal, so whatever you want to produce beef, pork or chicken or even fish, there are companies looking at fish or if you remember Shiok Meets, they just shrimp as well, so you would take a biopsy from the animal, you would isolate certain stem cells that you would have to first grow in monolayer in tissue culture flasks and then you would have to think about translating that growth to larger scales, so think about bioreactors for expanding those cells and then what is extra, is the fact that there would have to be a step of differentiating those stem cells into the cell types that are found in meat and those are typically, muscle fats but then they can also be connective cells. And with cultivated meat products we can produce well basically these can be classified in two types of products, they can be structured products so something like a steak, so, a structured meat product or they can be non-structured products like minced meat so basically when they would be commercialized, they would be in the form of a sausage or a burger party meatball etc. And actually a minced meat like product is a lot easier to do than a structured product that would require an additional step of using a scaffold of sorts to basically give it that structure. So in terms of producing cultured meat, there are four elements to it.
You have the cells, well, I call them cell lines here but actually they're not quite cell lines so they are primary cells or they are, or they can be stem cells that can differentiate into those cell types that comprise meat, then you have the media, which is basically the broth that would be used for growing the cells and this has to have a certain formulation, then another element is the scaffold so the biomaterials and if you are aiming to produce a structured cultured meat product then you would need something like this, you need something to give it like the top image, you would need something to give it that structure, something that has pores, that can, cells can actually start growing inside and basically, forming the structure. If you are aiming for non-structured cultured meat then the scaffolds will take the form of micrometre-sized particles that are known as microcarriers and these are basically working as substrates for the cells to attach and grow on. Microcarriers are generally used in combination with bioreactors, so bioreactors are basically those cultivators, those vessels and these are the final element that needs consideration in producing cultured cultivated meat. And there are multiple types of bioreactors that are available and they're actually quite standardized, they've been used quite a lot for healthcare applications so they are quite translatable to this application as well. But obviously because of time today I just want to touch a little bit on the media and that is because the media is the main contributor to cost so for these products unlike the healthcare type products, cultivated meat will be a food so that means that in order to reap all those benefits it would actually have to be available and affordable. So cost is very very
important when we talk about these products. So, in terms of the media for cultivated meat, we need two types of, well two formulations basically, you would need a formulation to grow those cells and you would need a formulation to drive them to differentiate towards muscle and towards fat. And in terms of considerations, obviously because we're the aim is to produce a food, the components of the media should ideally be food grade and they should be cheap as well in order to bring down those costs of production and make cultivated meat affordable. So like any other media formulation including those for clinical applications, for healthcare applications, the formulations would be pretty similar so they would have to basically contain salts, inorganic salts, amino acids, vitamins, other components like glucose or sodium pyruvate as sources of carbon, fatty acids and proteins which are very very important so those proteins can be in, well, in the shape of us of serum which is not ideal because again serum is produced from animals, so we don't want that, ideally, we would want a serum free, animal free media to be able to grow these again to harness all of those benefits.
And there are serum free formulations for clinical applications that can be used as a starting point for production of cultivated meat but obviously they need adaptation to these, well to other species first of all because the cells that would be used are basically from livestock species or fish and they would require different concentrations, maybe even different protein combinations as well for that. But the good news is that most of these components can actually be sourced as common food ingredients as well so they are quite commonly used in food production. So, as I mentioned, cost is an absolute major challenge and that is because it is linked to the affordability of these type of products. So, in terms of
how can we bring those costs down, what kind of strategies can be employed and this will be the last, the last point that I would like to touch on. There are different things that we can do, so, some of them would involve bioprocessing strategies, one of such being for example, to incorporate a media recycling step, so, it might be only in one part of the process but actually by recycling the media, what you do is, you are basically, if it, well, utilizing those components of the media in a more efficient manner so that will have an impact on the volumes of media that will be used and implicitly on the costs. There are other technologies that we can use in bioprocessing that can help us as well, so we could look at for example, in-line monitoring, particularly of nutrients and metabolites production so that will inform how often we actually add additional nutrients or we've removed the media to remove the metabolize the waste products of cell metabolism. Another way would be to basically have a way of real-time analysing the media composition and using that in combination with automation to basically control when those adjustments, so those additions of nutrients, or growth factors or proteins take place, so again that will be about a better, a more efficient utilization of media components. We can also try to reduce the cost by basically making all these proteins and growth factors cheaper and how we can do that is by again using recombinant DNA technology and fermentation which is very well established.
The problem at the moment is the fact that the growth factors and the proteins that are available, that are commercially available, tend to be quite expensive and that is because they have been designed and produced for well, basically, for clinical applications so they have different requirements in terms of purity or for safety reasons. But here we're producing food products so for food products the requirements are completely different. Other strategies would be to, for example, extract high quality amino acids, which are the blocking, the blocks of proteins essentially and utilize those from various waste streams of other food industries like brewery for example and that way we wouldn't be using the very expensive proteins designed for clinical applications or to perform what is known as metabolic modelling to optimize those formulations.
So I would like to conclude with some remarks, cellular agriculture is an emerging area and it has potential to produce food sustainably and without harming the animals and the environment but the products that we can produce, like cultivated meat and cultivated milk, are still in in the stage of concepts so they are still being developed and they're not currently available but some of these, some of these challenges that the industry has to face in order to make these products available are very much linked to the production and the cost as well. The technologies that we can use are not new so we, they are very much inspired from healthcare applications but we do need to bear in mind that we are trying to produce foods which means that these technologies should be adapted again to take into consideration the cost element and to be able to harness those full benefits. And yeah, affordability and availability some of the bigger challenges that are still ongoing. Petra, Mike, there
if you want to go through some of the questions. So there's one in the chat actually that is asking: Do you think cultured meat will out compete the traditional meat in terms of sales in near future? So I think that's an absolutely excellent question, thank you so much for asking that, I think with cultured meat products at the moment that's not going to happen. It will maybe in 50 years' time when the technology advances enough, maybe that that's when things will shift dramatically but I think once these products come to the market and they become available I think it's more about giving options to consumers rather than forcing people to eat these types of products, it's all about, you know, as some people have decided to become vegetarian or vegan for reasons related to, you know, to environment or to animal welfare, everyone is capable of making their own conscient choices. So cultured meat products are, they're there as an option, they're not competing with cultured meat and realistically I think in terms of prices as well they will probably be at the price of top meats, we're talking about organic meats, so they're not going to be, I don't think they're going to get lower than that. I don't know if you want to add anything to that Michael, Mike.
I agree, yeah, I agree with everything you said. I think if I'd like to answer one of the questions from the Q&A and it's the first one which is about why the research we've, Petra has presented focuses on animal based protein and not plant-based protein and it kind of links back to that area of collaboration so like all, I mean almost all scientific problems are solved by more than one discipline but I think you have to know where your limitations are and plant-based protein production is really, well, it's usually more of a formulation question which is usually left to chemical engineers not biochemical engineers and we really focus on starting with a live starting point whether that be an animal cell or a microbe or fungus or yeast, we always will be starting with a life a starting point so we will always be looking to make either animal-based protein or an analogue of animal-based proteins. Yeah, and actually to add to that, cellular agriculture is pretty much focusing on animal derived products, I mean there is, yeah, there is a bit of a debate now that maybe plant-based products, plant-based proteins should also be included in cellular agriculture like with vanilla for example but I think the discussion is ongoing so that's why, you know, in this particular taster lecture we focus specifically to animal base proteins. Right, so, I would actually like to ask, to answer the next question, as a machine learning AI practitioner, how can I leverage these skills to work in the field of cell-based agriculture? I think my answer to this is that machine learning is actually a tool that is not as developed in the fields but I think it could be very very useful so machine learning can basically inform a lot of the steps, like in terms of those feeding times or how much do we feed the cells and that can actually have a significant impact on the efficient use of those media components and on the cost as well, so, I would say they are directly translatable to this field and they could be very very useful. Yeah, I would agree, I would say some of the start-ups definitely use machine learning and AI to help them, I guess, like increase the rate of which they make decisions or improve their processes, I would say that one of the current drawbacks is that there is generally not enough data to be able to create robust models with and as soon as that happens, it'll probably happen, it'll be ubiquitous they'll be having everywhere.
Yeah, yeah. Right, so, next question when cultivated meet, you mentioned microcarriers are used with bioreactors, are bioreactors also used or needed when using scaffolds to produce cultivated meet? Yes, so, my feel, I mean again this is, this is a concept and producing structured cultivated meat products like steak is a bit more difficult but yeah, I think bioreactors would definitely be needed because the bioreactors have the capability of actually controlling all of those environmental parameters for growing the cells and those are really really important for the cells so the temperature is very important and it needs to be constant the gases as well so I would think that actually a probably a novel design of a bioreactor would be required when using a scaffold to produce a 3D chunk of meat essentially, a steak. Petra just further down somebody's actually asked whether the sorry, they've also asked would the scaffold be removed from the product at the end? Ah okay so actually that's a very good question, so, if we're talking about microcarriers, there's a big chance that they will have to be removed unless they are made of edible edible materials so if if they are made of edible materials for simplification of the process and basically maximizing the cell yields that you can get at the end one option could be to not remove the cells and use those micro carriers but again with the condition that they should be made of edible materials to use those to contribute to the texture of the minced meat if we're talking about a 3d steak essentially then again the the actual scaffolds should be either made of of an edible material and will remain there so it will contribute to the texture or another option would be to use a degradable scaffold and basically let the cells take over and produce their own structure so assemble themselves to to basically you know mimic as naturally as possible the the stake I don't know if you want to add anything to that mic I agree with everything you said there's an interesting question that is related I guess which I'm going to try and answer but I'm going to let you take over when i get things wrong which is about the role of muscle movement in traditional meat texture and how this is recreated in cultivated meat so I think muscle movement does play a large role in the texture of the meat I think it's recreated by trying to simulate the same structures but not just that also there are elements of like tensile strength that you need to try and match with your cultivating meat versus your traditional meat yeah so I think these are well I would say these are still ongoing questions but the idea is that you would get those stem cells you would differentiate them to muscle and one of the challenges at the moment is actually differentiation is easy but what is the challenge is actually maturing that muscle so that means creating those mature fibers that basically contribute to the texture of meat as we know it so there have been a few approaches to that but what I think in my own well from my experience and from what I've been reading along the subject I think it's very very important that we try and try and include an additional stimulus which is well it can either be electrical to to help with the maturation of the the muscle fibers or it could be an actual mechanical stimulus so if you think about you know when exercising right and and trying to build muscle what do you have to do there are two things you have to actually exercise particularly weight lifting that's what helps and you have to you you have to have a very high intake of protein so it's exactly the same concept here you have to give your your cells very high protein concentrations and then that mechanical stimulus would actually help with breaking down down those fibers and helping them reassemble in those more mature fibers to grow that muscle tissue but you're absolutely right the the muscle itself will contribute to the texture and actually in in the cultivated meat products the muscle will have to be a very high proportion because if you think about meat you usually have what 80 90 depending on what cut of muscle and then only you know 10 percent of fat and then or maybe even less than that and another couple of percent of other types of cells that keep everything together so the same sort of ratios would have to be mimicked here as well I'm just going to jump in front because someone's asked a question about whether you think cultured meat will outcompete traditional meat but also ask they also go on to ask about consumer acceptance and just perhaps you could put this in the context of commercialization and public perception and how much work the work weed I mean I think Mike i think you're going to probably come on to more about public perception and marketing when we when we when we have matilda present but perhaps you'd like to talk about commercialization as a as a part of what we do here yeah so actually I mean when it comes to commercialization of these products obviously we're not quite there yet so it will take a few years at least to to get to the UK or even in europe but that is because of the regulatory approval so we can't commercialize anything in UK or well actually nowhere in the world without having regulatory approval so what regulatory approval does it basically looks at how those products are formulated because these are novel foods how they're formulated how they are produced what kind of components do they have and are they safe are they safe for consumers but not just as a product the product as a whole but when is digested those components that are broken down are those also safe so these are the kind of questions that need to be answered and I do want to touch on the consumer's acceptance as well so as I said you know cultured meat products I think are are to give consumers options but in terms of consumers acceptance there have been a few studies that looked at UK and us in particular because there are two quite big markets and some of the findings basically were very much linked to the way these products were presented so the terminology that was used for example if you know if terms like clean meat were used or synthetic meat then obviously people would be a bit put off from those type of products but actually as I said you know the idea is that these will be genuine meat products they're not synthetic in any way so terminology more like cultured meat or cultivated meats seem to be more acceptable because it still made that difference between how it was produced so it doesn't come from slaughtering the animal but it's still the same product that you know we all know it's so neat so I think in in terms of how we can increase the consumer acceptance it will be very much about you know informing people about what it is and how is being produced and also transparency of how is being produced and the benefits that it can have yeah yep I'd add I mean I would reinforce that information education is key but there is a I think there's also a body of work that goes around and if we only think about the UK context that consumers are very different just within the UK if you look at an urban center like the center of London or and you compare your typical consumer there to someone who maybe lives on a farm who may be affected by the influx like financially economically affected by the influx of cultivated meat those two consumers are going to be very different they're going to be exposed to very different things and that's one of the reasons why like information is purely key but you have to remember there is no one typical consumer and they vary massively depending on where you are just within the UK and we live in a pretty small island yeah good so there is another question in the chat well actually a few other are there any remarkable difference is there any remarkable difference in taste between the cellular meat or milk and the naturally produced milk or meat so the answer to that is that it will probably not I mean that that is the aim of cultured milk and cultured meat to actually replicate that taste you know as as well as close as possible obviously the technology is still not quite there yet but I think it is achievable and it's all about the composition so rather than thinking of you know of it as a as a whole product I think is more about going down to the building blocks of those products so in this case you know the muscle the fat and for milk would be the the actual proteins themselves and the taste comes from those elements yeah I'm just conscious that we're going to the last five minutes so I'm just going to ask my competitors to have a quick look at the list of questions maybe pick one each that you want to answer Petra Mike are there any questions that you particularly want to answer now you go first Petra oh okay you're being a gentleman Mike yeah so I'll I'll answer the top one will cell-based agriculture at any point during its pipeline involve the captivity and harm of animals so I would say a definite no i mean that's the whole purpose cellular agriculture is about producing the same products without actually having to harm those animals yeah so one big element well one big challenge current challenge that addresses is is animal welfare so yeah it's definite now and I'm going to take the easy question at the end which is by inducing differentiation in lab-grown cells does this change the genotype of the cell and are they then classified as gmos and no no no that was that was super easy no so yeah do you know up to you I don't know Kim do we have any more time yeah we've got two we got two minutes yeah so so go for it go okay so is it going to have the same nutrition values and calories yes the answer is yes maybe even improved nutrition as well because as you remember as I said because we're producing this controlled in a controlled manner we can actually add whatever we would like to it to enhance that nutrition and and actually make it healthier for us as well so yes Mike and I'm going to jump in and piggyback the answer with the question are there any side effects of using agriculture foods and cultivated meats I think the proposed side effects are all positive so there's obviously a positive benefit to the environment as petrus just described there will be a positive benefit to your health and there's also going to be a positive benefit to the lack of harm to animals so yes there will be side effects and i think there will be majority positive yeah I agree I agree great well thank you very much for your questions it's been great to have you with us for the first one of these tasty lectures and I really hope we get to see you again in the second one it's we're really looking forward to that one but finally thank you Mike thank you Petra and I hope you everyone has joined us and Michael Petra have a great rest of the day and yeah hope to see you all again soon thank you and goodbye thank you everyone thank you bye