British Science Week: Engineering and sustainability - Panel discussion with TfL & Siemens engineers

hello everybody my name's lauren and i am part of learning team at the london transport museum today i am joined by three of our lovely stem ambassadors from bfl and siemens and we're going to be talking things engineering and sustainability so what i'm going to do first i'm going to ask each of my ambassadors to introduce themselves they're going to tell you their name their job title and what they actually do what that job title mean so first of all would you like to introduce yourself hi everybody my name is emma i am a project manager working for transport for london and if you don't know what a project manager is that basically means that i'm the planning and execution of a particular project i always say that if you know what it takes to make a good cake you know what it takes to manage a project so you need to prepare properly like making sure you have all your ingredients and all your tools ready before you start and then you follow your recipe and your time plan carefully to make sure the cake is ready to serve with enough time so i do all of this but with railways so it's pretty similar except it takes much much longer and sadly you can't eat the railway at the end disney now hi my name is disney i'm an account manager at siemens mobility limited um my job basically uh entails that i have frequent engagements with a customer mainly tfl to understand the sort of issues that the customer wants to solve in terms of public transport and also in terms of how they want to improve mobility in london so um key skills in my day-to-day job are understanding technical side of the issues uh having good communication skills and be able to digest a lot of information uh to be able to transfer it back to the business to make sure that we are ready and we have solutions that we can offer to the customer to help make their visions become reality over to ben hi everyone my name's ben i i work for transport for london the same as emma i'm a a rail vehicles engineer which which means i work in trains like the tube train you might have been to if you've been up to london and so i work to maintain the trains that we that transport london run on our network so when things break on the train or to keep them running as well like just like your car that you would look after you would clean them you would make sure things are running smoothly then i am i'm an engineer that looks after the trains that's my role that's lauren great so we've met our three uh engineers and as you can see they all work in quite different areas which is really useful and the first question i'm gonna ask them is because you might be asking yourself is what actually is an engineer so i'm gonna ask our ambassadors to tell us what they what they would say to someone that says well what is an engineer what is engineering disney you maybe want to kick us off and tell me what you would say to that i think an engineer is very different things to very different people um when i was much much younger i used to watch my grandpa fix sort of broken electronic devices so people would use to bring him broken radios broken tvs and he would just trial and error sort of different mechanisms and different methods until he made them work again and that was always quite fascinating to me sort of thinking wow he can sort of bring all these things back to life and troubleshoot all the issues things and when i went on to university and sort of was exploring what i can do with my career i understood that that was mainly what an engineer does is sort of understanding what what issues are how you can find proper processes and proper methods to to fix these issues and also improve and make sure you can pioneer new things into into different industries so that really inspired me to try and understand how public transport could be more green more sustainable and you know more accessible for everyone that needs to use it great so same thing to you someone asks you what is an engineering what was it all about what would you say to them yeah so i think a huge part of my job is problem solving so maybe um something on the train needs repairing and so there's and there's lots of different ways that we could fix that component and and so the the task of the engineer is to think about all the different ways that we could fix this this problem and thinking about how much it costs how much time it's going to take to repair that item and what sort of uh when we've repaired it then what does it affect on the rest of the train will we be able to fit that repaired item back to the uh back in the same place or do we need to make other modifications so a huge part of what i would say in engineering is is problem solving um and thinking very clearly about the whole train and the whole system all together and so yeah for me then it's problem-solving that's how i'd round it up uh what about you emma oh i totally agree with both of you actually i for me the essence of engineering is the problem solving and the problems that we solve as engineers they are on so many scales so they you know they're they're from the level of you know turning some screws to fix a radio to well hang on you know how do we get you know 100 000 people a day from this side of london to this side of london and you know i i i work at at this sort of scale where i'm looking at the the how do we get the people from one side of london to the other side of london problem and the solution that we're looking at as engineers is well we'll build a new railway we'll build a railway like crossrail one which is being built at the moment and is nearly finished or crossrail ii which is a railway that you know nobody's put any spades in the ground yet to build this but it's something that we're looking at to solve this problem and you know my contribution to that as as an engineer myself and now as a project manager is i would be looking at how to break the problem down into smaller problems so i'd say right well we need to build the structure of the railway all the concrete bits that go in the ground so that you can put the tracks in the tunnels and you can put escalators in the stations so i'd hire a structural engineer for that but then i need i need to hire someone maybe from siemens like disney to think about how all the signaling for the railway works so the trains don't crash into each other and then i need to go find someone like ben to sort out the actual trains themselves so you see how for engineering at all levels you get these problems from the tiniest tiniest problems to the biggest problems and if you stick all the tiny problems together and solve those then you solve the overall engineering problem and uh that's that's the thing i actually like most about engineering that scalability over back to you lauren for the next question that was great so actually what our ambassadors um have done a really good job thereof is touching on this idea that i think we a lot of us when we think of engineering we think of maybe building buildings or building cars or making things work like that but what i really like about their answers is they've all touched on the fact that actually there's a lot of skills and a lot of aspects to engineering that i think would surprise a lot of people so teamworking for example we've just heard how even if you're working on a project you're not working on it as an individual as a little island you're having to consider lots of different departments lots of different aspects and in fact your project fits into a whole other range of other projects so something i want to now talk with my engineers is maybe what surprised you about being an engineer in terms of what would maybe a skill or part of your job that you maybe hadn't expected when you first thought yes i want to go into engineering something that you ended up going oh well actually i'm really going to need a skill and that surprised me or i'm going to be you know working in this way which really surprised me let's start with emma thank you lauren so i was thinking quite hard about this one actually and there's been quite a few things that actually surprised me about and being an engineer and i i thought at the outset you know having having gone to university and then joined a engineering consultancy before i worked for tfl that i'd spend all my time you know sitting down doing calculations in front of spreadsheets you know never really talking to anyone and and that's just not the case it's a it's a kind of weirdly people-oriented profession where you have to deal with so many what we call interfaces um and you have to the way you deal with that is by talking to people and agreeing things and you do these things like design workshops where you sit down in a room with 15 people all from different disciplines so you might have mechanical engineers and electrical engineers and structural engineers and then even the architects and and the drainage engineers and the uh the environmental consultants and the the sustainability engineers and you all get together to try and solve a problem and i don't know why but i never quite understood that that's that's really how these things are dealt with in in the real engineering world it's not just sitting in front of your computer doing calculations well there is a little bit of that but it's also about interacting with people to find the best solution to a problem um don't know what you think about that then anything to add yeah no i i agree i'm i'm i'm the same i thought um obviously studied science and maths at school and i really enjoyed that that sort of side of school and then that led into university um and then it's easy to to believe that engineering you will be just somehow right you know doing questions in a textbook um but that's not the case it is as you say a lot of interaction with other people particularly particularly i think one of the most difficult skills is when you disagree actually two engineers disagree on what we should do um they present their reasons why uh each of their ideas is better and you've got to try and come to an agreement about which one we're going to go forward with you can't we can't sit there in a room and uh and not go anywhere you have to resolve uh the conflict um and i think that is possibly one of the most difficult skills that i i have to sort of try and um develop in my uh in my career as an engineer i think it's a really tricky one but yeah quite a surprise probably when you come into engineering that that is is what you spend your time some of your time doing anyway there's plenty of calculations as well but uh what about you disney i agree with both of you um quite a lot to be fair because i think at least in pop culture and and sort of you know media depictions engineers are sort of these sad creatures that are just in a cubicle throttling away doing calculus sort of talking to themselves but um in in in both of my previous roles and in my current role as females that's definitely not the case uh especially in the day-to-day job i do where well before coving i used to be uh in front of the customer and speaking to various different people from different parts of the business um i think one of the most tricky skills that i've had to develop over the years is being able to talk to different people in a sort of different engineering language when you're talking to the bid management team is very different than being able to speak to r d engineers or you know solutions architects so is finding the right balance and the right language to be able to communicate efficiently with all of these teams by still translating the same message across so i find that quite tricky but also quite rewarding to be able to sort of link all these different teams and messages from the customers back into into the internal organization so i fully agree with everything that eman ben just said great some great answers there and actually i want to just pick up a couple of the different ambassadors made so i think a big thing that came out of that was actually how important having people and communication skills is as an engineer i think all you need to remember is as they all said you are going to be doing some equations and you're going to be using your maths and science however when you are building a building when you're building a transport network whatever you're doing you're creating these things for people to use right at the heart of everything an engineer does is people because we're not just building a building they're all going to look at and never go inside we have to make sure that it can be used by people so you're really having to not just talk to lots of other departments and try and work out how you all get what you want also think about the whole time how does this affect people and i think that's really really important and i think what they've all picked up on a little bit is the ability to think quite creatively so as ben said sometimes you're going to have different people in a project that think different solutions work better or need different things in the project you know one person might be looking after more the financial side so they're going to have different concerns and different priorities and being able to think creatively being able to go well hang on i need to fit all these different pieces into place and make it all work well is a really really important thing now i know that all three of our bam passengers went down and going to university room to get into the career and that's something i just want to talk about it is a career where you can go through university and there's a whole range of different types of engineering we've heard a little bit from all of them they mentioned things you know you've got some material engineering chemical engineering remember engineers are also done your computer game they're signing ready meals they are creating huge massive building projects but they're also creating medical instruments and things like that so there's a whole range of areas you can study at university go into different types of engineering however something that's really exciting about engineering is if you are not so much wanting to go down the academic route you can go through apprenticeship schemes and tfl has an amazing apprenticeship scheme for engineers i myself go to university you know it's not all an end-all there are lots of different ways you can get into the careers you won't get into so um don't put off if you think away i have to go and get a degree it's not the case at all i want to pick up on something our engineers started to touch on and this was a idea of um considering all the different things that are going to affect your project now obviously with these being tfl and siemens engineers working on london projects have to consider london as a city creating projects in london is going to be very different doing it say in heaven or doing it somewhere internationally like sydney or singapore so what i want to ask my ambassadors is how do you find london specifically influences what you do as an engineer what kind of things are you having to consider that maybe you wouldn't have to consider or wouldn't the same kind of problem elsewhere i'm going to start off with disney i think london is quite an interesting uh test bed for some other cities or other towns across the uk and even internationally um it's always striving to try out new things new technologies um and new concepts really um i think we've seen a lot of strides on the signaling front on london underground uh we've also mobility projects um around connected autonomous vehicles and the trials around that and e-scooters so i think it's always pushing the barrier to to sort of understand what the future of public transport might look like and it sort of sets the theme for other cities to follow suit so it's quite an interesting environment to work in from a mobility perspective hey have you got anything you can add to that yeah it's a it's a very incred interesting question this one actually um i've i've come i've come across this quite often because we we often do things on my projects on on crossroad 1 and crossroad 2 where they are quite complicated to do in london and i i tend to think well perhaps that wouldn't be so difficult if we were just doing this somewhere else like in cornwall um and you know for example digging a tunnel in the ground to put a railway underground um there is so much stuff in the ground in london you would not believe so every time you see a tall building this that sort of building is likely to be on a on a foundation that's called a piled foundation and basically what it is is a bunch of concrete columns plunging into the ground meters and meters like you know 40 meters down and you can't dig a tunnel through that so you have to go around and you know all of this is a constraint on your project it's something you have to take into consideration so sometimes you know you might look at the underground map and think um i think why is that that tube line squiggling about all over the place well it's probably doing it because there's something in the way that it can't go through and um i like i like to think you wouldn't have this problem if you you know decided to dig a tunnel in the ground in davan or cornwall but then you'd have other issues so i'm sure for example you know you'll have heard about projects like hs2 where they have lots of issues where you know that they're building railways through areas of outstanding natural beauty instead and you know there's not so many areas of outstanding natural beauty in london although you know a few architects might disagree with you um and and that's the thing in for hs2 they're building through the countryside so you know what they're removing to build their railway things like trees and what we'd be removing to build our railway in a place like london would be existing buildings um so it's it's it's if it's it's different challenges and i i've given you a bit of a flavor there of this the sort of stuff i run into there's there's loads of other things like uh like logistics like getting materials to sites and just the proximity of um of stakeholders to sites so you know if you imagine you you set up a construction site in central london you might have 300 people overlooking the site in the in the block of flats next to you and you know you could be building on that site for a decade and all these people could be listening to the noise from your building site from a decade for a decade so you have to you have to take all that into account and think well well what do we do about it how do we make this situation more tolerable for people because ultimately we we do need to build this railway for the benefit of london but how do we make it better for people um so yeah that's that's my thoughts on that yeah so i completely agree about the the the tunnels and we're left with um a number of the tunnels that were built uh i've been dug in and through through london i've been uh have been built over a huge time span uh we've been running tube trains for a long time in london and so an interesting thing that that has meant is that actually the tunnels some of them are very small and so some of the tube trains have to be have to fit obviously to go down those tunnels and so uh so these trains are relatively unique because they have to squash all of that equipment and all of that those your motors and your air compressors and your um your wheels and your axles and your space for your seating you have to squash all of that comp all of those components into a very very small space and that causes that causes when you're designing the train and then when you're looking after it as i do um lots of difficulties because you just don't have a lot of space in your on your train so i think that's quite unique about about london um because you have quite quite small trains um and that causes lots of lots of difficulties when we have a problem um i can think of something specifically that i've worked on and uh you know we we had to remove a a portion of the under frame from underneath the train and it was very very difficult to to get into that space because they were sort of clambering over almost sort of other bits of equipment having to remove other pieces that creates lots of lots of problems when you start removing things takes a lot more time and so it's uh that's a that's a challenge you wouldn't necessarily have in london but as emma's pointed out you you have other other challenges maybe in the countryside brilliant thank you ambassadors so that was an amazing response they they had do my job for me these ambassadors aren't they so i think something that's really um they've all picked up on is this idea that as with anywhere london has its own unique set of challenges when you're building so great thing about london is it's very dee which can be a really good thing because you know your service is going to get really well used which is great because you can kind of go great so it's going to be sustainable financially in that respect however being incredibly busy and an incredibly um close city so a very a lot of people in a small amount of space it's just building things logistically incredibly hard and actually i just want us to think about when the london underground was originally built now and i talked about this a little bit my other ambassador interview the london underground was the first underground railway in the entire world so it was it was a bit of a risk it was a bit of a let's see if this worked um and the way they originally built funnel they followed the lines of roads and we still did this today so i think it was disney maybe you know it was emma who talked about the some of the tube lines you're going regularly and round corners and it spit odd it's because you're trying to follow the line of the food because that way you build under the road you're not going to risk damage to the buildings around it and you're not having to pay underneath obviously every company's building go under the road it's much easier however they originally was they had to go road build the tunnel cover it back up again this was a nightmare it's a method called cut and cover and as you can imagine that causes huge disruptions especially when we were building sort of the underground in the you know the mid to late 1800s and it's it's a busy city it's crowded you're now picking up main roads nightmare we can really see how engineers have really taken a problem of how do you fall in a busy place like london you used to use cut and cover what we do now is we use big tunnel boring machines and what that does mean is you're going to cause far far less disruption to everyone you know going about their business in the city and using the cut and cover method so you can really see the engineers never resting on their laurels they come up with a solution then constantly trying to improve on that delusion i think it'd be really good if we start looking at this idea of sustainability so sustainability is obviously becoming a much bigger concern for all of us we know that we're in a bit of a climate crisis and we all need to be doing our part so ambassadors what i want to ask you first of all is how has this growing concern about sustainability changed the way you work and changed what you are doing on your projects so let's start off with in this one yeah so i this is it's a really it's a really difficult problem to to solve i think that there's no way to um uh there's no sort of need to the the this problem when um something that often comes up when you're repairing trains is that it's actually cheaper to throw away lots of components and replace them with new and putting lots of things in the bin because it's very expensive to repair uh certain components especially when you've you've got trains that were built back in 1970 1980 then it can often often you just want to throw them all in and and replace with you because that is so much cheaper and so much uh easier so i think the the biggest change that i've seen in my career so far is is just an increase in that conversation of well there's there's not just it's not just about finance and it's not just about what's easiest and what's best to do um so to meet your project deadline or your uh or or that timeline and it's it's also the an environmental impact of well if we put all of these motors in the bin or we put all of those wheels in the bin then what is the um what's the environmental impact of that and so i think that's probably the shift that i've seen over the last over the last five years that's played a much bigger role in how we decide to um to repair trains for my part but i'm sure that's that's very similar across across the board for in other industries great disney do you want to um pick up and say how it's affected the areas that you're working in yeah i think i echo a lot of what ben has just talked about because it's it's a very hard problem to fix um that's why i think we need support from different type across the different parts to make up the mobility sector um for siemens obviously we interface with a lot of different parts of that mobility and public transport piece so we're looking at more sustainable more green ways on which we power our vehicles i'm also looking at providing different options as well to drive people away from using their private vehicles for example you yeah i for one love going on the tube but i know that's not sort of the preferred method for everyone so how can we offer different sustainable uh transport options for people so that they are less reliant on their car and they can use cycling um e-scooters and other different modes of transport that are greener i think there's also advances in technologies that help us uh reduce energy consumption as well on trains for example where they're using coasting rather than sort of just going at full speed to reach the destination but reaching the destination at a still punctual time but using less energy to get there so there's a lot of different ways and tweaks that we could all do to play a part in sustainability but i think it's um it's a team effort it can't just be you know amendments to the train or amendments to the signaling to play together and fit in and like one big jigsaw puzzle because it's it's sort of useless reducing energy consumption of the train of them as ben said you know you're just throwing away the equipment and and um yeah so yeah it's it's a tough nut to crack but i'm sure that we're you know being aware of it is the first step um striving from both a supply chain and also from a customer point of view to to try and resolve it is the only way that we can fix it together for the next generation really great emma have you got anything um because obviously you're working on quite a big yeah has a huge environment you know it's very nature has a huge impact so maybe you can talk a little bit about how manage it as you're as you're doing that yeah i'm glad you pointed that out lauren because actually you know disney and ben have made really great points there um and you know we try and take all those into consideration when we are designing future projects like crossrail 2 so for example about you know making sure trains slow down naturally naturally and accelerate naturally we can influence that as engineers by designing our tunnels so that each of the stations they're kind of on a little hill underground so the trains naturally slow down as they arrive in the station and then they naturally speed up as they depart the station to save energy but again you sort of as as kind of disney said that's that's kind of on a small individual scale but what we as large magic mega projects like crossrail 2 have started doing is you know we need to be thinking decades in the future is how how should we be managing this sort of stuff and actually the approach we're kind of moving towards is if you think about what we do when we when we build these mega projects is we we make an assessment of how much they would cost to build so we we know how much it cost to buy the trains we know about how much it costs to build the tunnels you know we we know these costs and what we've started to do is think well okay well what does it cost in terms of carbon to build this to build this railway what does it cost in terms of carbon to operate this railway and obviously if we're if we're throwing bits away well that's a higher carbon cost than if we found a way of recycling them and if we're if we're building trains um that come into stations that are on hills that's a lower carbon cost than if we didn't do that but what we're trying to do is for the whole project to come up with a carbon cost so that any time we make a change to the project we know if we've improved the carbon cost or if we've made it worse and the other important thing to think about which would you kind of um i think disney kind of touched upon this is um is trying to get people to understand the carbon cost of using different modes of transport because ultimately the carbon cost of using crossrail 2 will always be lower than using a private vehicle and that it doesn't even matter if that vehicle will be electric in the future because crossrail will be electric too but it's a much more efficient use of resources to move people around than using a private vehicle and and i think as disney said it's it's about awareness you know we're moving through this period of increasing awareness and i think what we all need to do is challenge ourselves do we understand the carbon cost as well as the actual money cost of everything we do because if we don't understand that then we can't make decisions to improve it so that's what we as mega projects are trying to do make sure we understand that and we communicate it and we make decisions accordingly so that we go forwards and improve our sustainability and we don't go backwards so yeah that's that's what we're doing lauren i hope that helps just that little thing that's all they're doing you know just considering the future and everything uh no that wasn't those were amazing answers and again so much to pick up on from what our ambassadors have just said so i think one of the things i really want to pick up on is i think disney especially made a really good point about i think a lot of us when we think about sustainability and looking after the environment we think about almost more from where um was coming out emma starts a new project so you're kind of you're building things from scratch partly it's kind of easier in some ways make them sustainable and more environmentally because you're starting from uni so you can build all that stuff in from the start however as i said it's like the london underground there you know parts of it are 100 and over 150 years old so what becomes a lot trickier is looking at how do you deal with kind of things like that how do you deal with much older things so how do you deal with like being said is much cheaper throws certain things away than it is to try and repair them so we've kind of created a worldwide scale this isn't just and this isn't just the transport industry this is all industries we've created kind of just a disposable if you like a disposable economy oftentimes it's a lot easier throw something away and buy a new one it is to try and repair the one you have however that means you're having use more natural resources you're having to transport these things which is releasing a load more carbon so you can see what engineers are really kind of up against is they are not just having to consider my project and how i put it they're having to consider things like finances like how things are done and how do you start challenging that thinking and i think that's really really key and that's something you the viewers as future engineers are going to have to be considering more and more and more and it's good that we are considering them and it actually means we are challenging the fact that shouldn't she throw away and get a new one it should you know we should making it much easier to repair what we already have another point i want to bring up i think emma's really summed up nicely is engineers i would actually argue that the main job of engineer is to influence people's behavior because like emma said you know um especially in london for example main thing you're trying to achieve less cars on the road and more people on transport that's really about trying to change people's behavior which is an incredibly hard thing to do and again i don't think we think of that when we think of engineers building buildings or you know creating transport is what they're trying to do and i think that's a really exciting part of being an engineer is we're trying to work out how do i challenge what people do because it's easy or because it's what they've always done how do i actually make you know try and help make how a behave and how they interact with you know the transport system around them so i think they've brought up some great points there now i'm just aware we're running out of time the last thing i want to do i want to bring the focus back to you the viewers because as i said you're going to be our engineers of the future you're the ones going to be tackling these big problems so stem ambassadors the last thing i want to ask you is what would you say while few engineers you know what words of encouragement or or what kind of things would you give them to think about what would you want to say to them if you were here in the room with us now so let's start with disney what would you say to our future engineers um not to blow uh engineers on trumpet but i think engineers are sort of silent superheroes um i think we all play a very small part in changing tomorrow's future uh you know every sort of mega project as emma said you know it's not just about fixing today's problem but this is a solution for today tomorrow and beyond uh so if if you want to play a part in fixing issues whether it's in public transport or whether it's in other industries because engineering is so versatile in its own nature this is really a very nice career path for you it's it's just so creative and it just offers so many different breadth of opportunities on how you can just change someone's life by improving something that is impeding them for going about their day in a very natural manner if that makes sense so yeah i hope today's session was interesting i hope it's opened eyes to what is out there and what is possible and how we can all contribute to make the world a better more accessible place for public transport and other industries that we all need to survive and strive great and do you want to answer that question for me i think that was me so yeah i mean what i would say to everyone listening to this is whether or not you decide to become an engineer and obviously please do because as disney has said being an engineer is great um challenge the status quo and what that means is you know we can't reduce the carbon impact of this thing because oh it's too expensive you say well well how could we make it cheaper how could we make it work you know if saying oh well we have to drive because it's so it's so convenient it's so convenient you know you you have to challenge them and say well what is the cost that's being paid of the decision that you're making here to choose to drive instead of use public transport there's always a hidden cost you know if those clothes are really really cheap where is the cost being paid on the planet to make those clothes that cheap and surely wouldn't it be better for those clothes to be slightly more expensive but with a lower carbon impact so always remember you know there's the money cost and then there's the carbon cost and those two things have to be in balance and at the moment they're not and that's what we have to get to in the future and you guys can help us with that by always always questioning and challenging people when they say things can't be done so i'd say that's the most important thing from my point of view what about you ben yeah i think that's a that's a brilliant summary i won't do any better than that and so uh so i think um first of all sign up because i think engineering is the most exciting topic to to study and and learn about and i think probably disney and emma have covered more sort of outward-looking sort of really important things the way you can improve the world but from a maybe just thinking more inwards for yourself then i think it's just it's a really interesting um thing to learn about and it gives you the opportunity to if you go and work in cars or or in trains or in planes it gives you that fantastic opportunity to learn how all of those all of those things work i mean how does the tunnel boring machine work i mean i don't know i don't work in that environment but i would be really interested to go and find out how it did work and and i get to i get the opportunity to to learn how trains work and i really enjoy that um on on a daily basis so it's a it's a fantastic excuse to go and learn about about really interesting things so that's from a probably a very inward looking point of view but uh striving for you know a better um a better place and that's what engineers can can do as well but yeah back to you lauren well that was so good and that is all we've got time for today i want to say a huge thank you to my three ambassadors i think we can all they've been amazing and maybe want to go out and change the world now it's been very inspiring so hopefully it's inspired you at home as well and we can't wait to see you at the museum again hopefully soon everyone keep your fingers crossed um and for more information about the key stage three events that we will be playing go to the schools section of our website and we are hoping to be running events in june so hopefully we will see you really soon otherwise have a lovely rest of your day everyone and thank you once again for joining us goodbye

2021-03-11 11:18

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