Black Grief and the Family Tree
welcome ladies and gentlemen to the 4k podcast we got a special guest here with us today she goes by the name shay we know her as siobhan she she is a a writer a creator a multi-dimensional healing artist and she just explores what it means to be human so ladies and gentlemen welcome siobhan oh my gosh thank you what a warm welcome thank you i'm happy to be here thank you i'm happy for having you so what we we're doing here now for the 4k podcast we're trying to bring we'll bring some guests on here and there just to have a story time segment or a special category or topic that we'll bring up and discuss with uh someone else that's very near and dear to us um as far as story time um siobhan we had a story you wanted to to bring up man i guess we'll segue into whatever happens after that all right just jump right in um yeah i did have a story it's a it's an eerie one um but it it's one that is close to my heart it's one that i find myself revisiting often and it's one i love sharing because i don't know i think it just says so much um and it's about my mom who who transitioned when i was 18. and literally a couple of days after that happened her smartass found a way to hack like hack our um answer machine and change the voicemail greeting somehow some way uh i know i know y'all remember this and she left a message that said goodbye goodbye i love you um and i remember hearing it and being like no way like i did not hear what i just heard and i remember like having people call the phone like call the house and be like listen to this message and like you tell me what you hear i'm not going to tell you what to to hear i'm not going to influence you in any way and like everyone heard the same thing um i think about that story a lot because it says so much about like what we think of life what we think of death what we think of like the beyond and how we communicate with those who have transitioned those we have lost those who just simply don't have a physical body but clearly live on and i think before that point i thought you know i don't know i always believed in like the spiritual and all that kind of stuff but you know there's a part there's a part of it when you watch people like um you know miss cleo is that her name was that psychic call me now like stuff like that you know those psychics online and all this kind of stuff that people be scamming there's a there's a fantastical element of that where it's like that's not real you know what i'm saying and i even just think of like what we think of as death god source the beyond whatever you want to call it it's so great it's like beyond words and so yeah that was just a story and a moment in my life where i was like oh like this is real like this is real this is expansive there is something that happens um after this temporary stay on this planet um and that bio that cliff so beautifully read is how i summarize myself i always get a little nervous when people ask me who i am because i'm like there's there's no words for it like i'm all of it but yeah i come back to that story because it's such a like anchoring point and i always say that my mom's death like initiated me into life like she continues to teach me every single day what life is and isn't and yeah that's that's my opening story you know just just coming in hot um so yeah thanks y'all for the space to share it yeah no doubt that was perfect that was perfect and i remember that moment vividly uh listening to that voicemail and hearing those words and i'm just sitting there like wow damn i really heard that yeah it was crazy it was crazy it was crazy and it was like there was no denying it you know it wasn't like oh maybe that's what it said or like you know it's kind of staticky it was a clear message and i think that speaks to like the amount of love she had for us that her spirit found a way to be like i'm gonna get can i curse my hair by the way absolutely okay she found a way to be like i'm gonna find a [ __ ] way to tell my family that i love them and you know i know i left abruptly i know it was a quick departure but i'm gonna i'm gonna find a way to like communicate and yeah i just i think that's just speaks to like the intelligence of like the people we love you know and that the journey doesn't doesn't stop with the physical and so i'm glad you remember that moment because also when i when i think about grief and loss and all that kind of stuff too i think about the people that are still holding the people that we've lost you know still holding those stories and like the different angles like i probably remember something different than ricky than cliff and i think that's yeah it's really beautiful that glue that like keeps it all together so i'm glad you remember that speaking of something uh i like that post you did the other a few weeks ago oh which one wow you talked about how she uh when she worked at american express but she had uh stole stole the computers for the hood reparations okay one thing about my mom reparations yeah shout out to my mom like she man i know people when we lose people we say like that person had an assignment and it was done and that was my mom she lived life she came in here she was like i want to [ __ ] [ __ ] up like i'm about to laugh i'm about to party my way through this [ __ ] and i'm a peace out because i did what i had to do and she she went out with a bang and like she was bold she was wild she was embarrassing and it's like all these elements i only appreciate now as an adult of course as a teenager i'm like well i'm usually embarrassing but like now i'm like yo that was a bomb ass woman that was obama spirit that was a bomb [ __ ] and i feel lucky that i had her for 18 years you know it feels short sometimes but i'm like i i had her you know so yeah shout out to my mom stand laptops from from white men and redistributing it to the hood reparations you know american government could never i mean legend legend um to bring a little more recollection into the story i remember um someone was calling the house phone your house phone and i guess the the reason they wanted to uh the reason you heard it i guess was because they wanted you to change you don't delete her name or her voice because they were uncomfortable hearing it still and that's when you went into it and and heard it and i remember upon playing it only certain people seemed to hear clearly what she was saying other people didn't hear anything at all and we were like oh maybe the message just wasn't for you it definitely was not for those people yeah and i remember um i think it was grandma's idea she wanted to take it to maury or something like that and once on edward yeah i remember once we tried to save it it just disappeared yep it was like you're not gonna fill me off yep so my mom what a troll right like i'm gonna do this brilliant thing y'all gonna hear it and guess what that's it that's all y'all get people like oh the world gotta hit us and she was like no they don't yeah i remember that moment clearly yeah and it's like i in at that moment i was like [ __ ] like i really wanted to keep it first of all we could have been rich like who wouldn't you know that could have been some money but like i also think like moments like that experiences like that are meant to be short-lived you know it's meant to be this thing where it's like we heard it we know what we heard we don't need john edwards we like to be like great it serve this purpose it served this purpose and it did what it had to do and i think there's beauty to that there's beauty to yeah remembering that things don't last forever and people don't last forever you know it's sad too but i think there's a beauty tonight and the imprint that they leave on you in your life it's crazy because as long as as it was there's still so many little things that pop up and i just i just remember i think about her or it's just the wildest weirdest little thing sometimes yeah yeah um also for those that don't know because we are cousins so i don't like i don't know we like getting right into the camari but my mom is i say is i use present tense is an aunt to ricky and cliff and so yeah what are some of y'all like favorite memories or like as nephews like how did you see my mom let me tell you let me tell you something okay i'm listening let me lean in i am still chasing that short very short cake high that strawberry shortcake i i've been chasing that high for a long time and none of them are comparable thank you for saying that ricky no i really appreciate you saying that because if anyone knew my mom like on the outside you would never think that she knew how to bake like that was not if i really if i showed you a picture like it was not in her demeanor seemingly but she did and strawberry shortcake and peach cobbler were her specialties and i'm so glad you remember that again like we need people to hold on to the stories and some memories yeah i just remember her being so upfront and in your face and no apologies about anything and it was just something i really appreciate about her i remember uh wanting to like go to your house so often and spend weekends or whatever there just just to get away and it felt like a little mini vacation i guess from from my life sometimes and she never did anything special she never really like i can't even explain it but it was just like so nice just being in that environment with her yeah she always made sure we all came over there at least once a year and yeah so yeah that was dope yeah i remember her drinking um arbor miss was it y'all yeah arbor but i remember like that that being my first taste of uh liquor or whatever as a kid just asking for it she's like here try this okay why not as an auntie should yes and it was funny because like i remember the first time i was um she was rigged and i was like oh what is that and she didn't even tell me what it was here just try it and i was like okay sure and i tasted it i was like it's okay it wasn't it wasn't bad and i was like okay well yeah arbor mix yeah and those 50 cent cobra beers remember those oh dad my pop she's so loud yes oh my god and don't forget the straw either way forget his straw first thing don't forget that straw yeah those beers wow so with her um her passing how how was it dealing with the trauma in the very beginning and do you attribute your transition the most into just being who you are after the trauma yeah i love this question um i'll be honest with you they say there's five stages to grief which to me is total [ __ ] there there are way more stages and there's no logical order but i will say that first stage denial yeah they got that one right they got that one right i think because i was so young i was in such a state of shock and adult me looks back and i'm like yo i don't know how i got through that like i have no idea like the fact that i went to school the next day like what does that yeah i i sure did i was like well i'm like i'm just yeah i'm i gotta go to school but like looking back i think i was just in a state of like denial in shock and probably looking for something that i knew as safety which was school i'm just like pretending to be normal you know and to be honest like i didn't really process my grief until i would say at least five years later um because my mom died when i was 18 like two weeks before my high school graduation rate a month after that got my first job and then a month after that i was off to college i was like i gotta get these grades i gotta get this financial aid i gotta like pay for these classes i gotta go to grad school like grief i don't have time for that like i don't have time for that and so i just ignored it i suppressed it um and you know i i don't know on one end i would say well that's unhealthy but on the other hand it's like grief doesn't have any logical order it like whatever way you cope whatever way it comes through even if it's denial even if it's suppression that was part of my journey you know and i think once i graduated school and i came back home whoo let me tell you that that that that [ __ ] that i was ignoring in the back of my head it was like finally all right like you got some space now here we go like it it that's when it started to like become a part of my life and i was like all right i'm ready like i have i have the space now um and even like before my mom transitioned i had i had been in therapy you know so that was something that that helped a lot but i mean even even early on there was a lot of moments when like i wasn't honest with my therapist because i wasn't ready to talk about it i was young and i think i was also looking around at you know my other peers i didn't i didn't know anyone my age who had lost a parent i didn't know anyone who had been through that um i also think that there's a lot of like um stigma in the black family in terms of how to grieve uh no shade to religious folks but they tend to say things like well they went home with the lord right and like it was their time to go and i'm like that's all you got for me like you know like on on one end like i'm glad that that's comforting for for some folks but on the other end it could be like an avoidance tactic right and so i didn't give myself permission to grieve until years later um but once i opened that like can of worms like man that was it it's become like a part of my core like i even joke about like me being like goth right like i grew up goth like you know but like i don't know like maybe that was part of the design of my spirit like i always use my mom's death and refer to it as an initiation because i wouldn't be who i am now had that not happened as sad as it is like i would not have the knowledge the wisdom like the emotional range like all that stuff i wouldn't have that without her death you know and so to me this is a big part of my life's purpose it's a big part of my life's work in whatever form that is whether it's sharing a poem or just sitting down for a chat like this like i'm meant to feel and then to like cry i meant and this is something yeah now i struggle with growing up like always being the sensitive one like always crying but like that's a beautiful thing like i'm human that's why cliff said i'm exploring what it means to be human and unfortunately and maybe fortunately a big part of being human is that we're all gonna die like we all are gonna have that experience we're all gonna know someone that transitions and i think it's a beautiful thing when we can talk about it we can feel and we can like push up against like societal norms of like cutting your feelings off and like not addressing the thing in the room and i'm like i'm not down for any of that like i that's not normal to me you know that's real robotic and so yeah i always say that her loss like i don't know just awaken something in me and i'm forever change and i'm grateful yeah one thing um well to give context to those who don't know um my mom passed recently and leroy's father passed a couple years ago and they were all our parents were all siblings and um to to bring this question to you leroy uh upon when was the the moment you realize that it's real going back to grandma house every time i go to grandma's house i feel it just him being there for so long and then you go back over there and he's not there so every time i walk in that crib i'll be like all right yeah that's when i felt it i think i call i'm not too sure yeah you're gonna fall i call one of you when my moment hit when um oh okay backtrack to one thing when siobhan said uh denial i remember going up to the the funeral or her service i still didn't believe it was her because i still didn't see her yet and when they pulled the casket out of the truck and we had to carry it into the church they didn't have enough people to help carry it so they asked if i would be able to help so i was like sure and people were looking at me funny like are you sure you could do them again i was one of those people yeah like yeah if y'all don't come get this casket for this man right and i remember when the the the director was going to lift the the lid of the casket she was like are you okay are you ready i'm like yeah and the back of my mind i kept thinking you're gonna lift this lid i'm gonna look and i'm saying that's not my mom where is she you know like i was like the guy she might be hiding somewhere or you know it was just so many weird thoughts that went through my head but when she lifted it up i was just so confused because i didn't feel anything i didn't feel i didn't feel hurt i didn't feel relieved i didn't feel anything i just was staring hurt i remember um there were flowers like in her hair so i was like trying to readjust her hair and i wasn't no she would never do her hair like that so i'm sitting there moving her hair out and i'm trying to like readjust her body because it's shifted and the director's just looking at me like are you are you okay like and i was just like no no just i just wanted to look good you know for everybody but the real moment when it actually hit me was when um her ashes came back from the crematory and it came in the mail which feels so impersonal right and i remember holding a box and i took i took her box out of the cardboard box and i was just standing there and i was hugging it and i'm like wow like this the box is five pounds or whatever it is and i'm just like everything you were is reduced to this little box of ashes and i remember walking into grandma's room and just staring at her and she was like what's wrong i just started nodding and i'm like this is it this is it this is that moment is it me and she's like are you okay and i just i hit the floor and i just started crying and she was like just let it out and i'm like i can't believe everything just turned into this it was just so weird to me um um thank you for sharing that thank you i don't think i knew about that moment i know there's been times when you called me but yeah i don't think i knew about that moment and yeah she was real and i think i i think you asked me after your mom passed like you asked me when was my moment like maybe almost in preparation or like wanting to know like yeah what to expect and i was like it bothered me that people were waiting for me to break down waiting for me to cry waiting for me to like lose my mind and i'm like i'm okay and it was like no one wouldn't accept that oh no you lost your mother suddenly like are you sure you're okay and i'm like i'm handling it like if it happens it happens if it doesn't it doesn't also to uh reiterate on mines the receiving of the flag oh my god yeah that was deep to me bruh rick ricky i i think everybody broke down in that moment i was good up until then yeah yeah the marines came in and did what they had to do that little slow they go slow i was like oh my god yeah and it was super cool for the first ninety percent of it because they find the flag in front of ricky here you go yeah that was a lot that's deep yeah but speaking of your father's service ricky like did you feel any kind of way of of there not being a body at the service like in the traditional way that we usually have funerals no i mean no not at all no i think it was better off that way yeah yeah so i didn't have to worry do you remember how you found out yeah you called me oh shoot damn you called me i was at the crib chillin and you called me like hysterical but not being overly hysterical so that you could tell me the information and get it out yeah but yeah that's how i found out you called me and told me yeah yeah i'm just saying i'm actually remembering it too i remember uh going to the house siobhan were you there before i sure was yeah and that was just so weird because i remember um uh marvin his best friend was the one that called me was like i think there's something wrong with me to get up here and i got up there and it was i don't remember who was there before me i believe siobhan you was there um grandma was there maybe mark was there too i think yeah i think i don't know and yeah that was just so weird because it's it it's weird because of course you never really expect it right it's like wow i can't i can't believe it then we we saw like the photos and everything else and it was just like how how do we do how do we process how do we figure out and i remember shortly after um feeling guilty because you both lost yours and i still have mine and i was just like i felt like if i were to share an experience i had with my mother after that like it would be like kind of bright not bragging but like it would be touching the sore spot so i was just like and that's what made me really reassess my relationship with my mother and try to get closer with her and yeah and that's just the craziest thing wow yeah that's that's so real that's something i yeah just like see a lot like these what i call what a lot of people call like grief wars you know like whether that's in internal or like the comparisons that we like put on ourselves their survivors guilt the re-experiencing it like i think cliff i think cliff was the one that called me and told me about ricky too and it was like i remember i had a moment of like not again yeah not again it was it wasn't even my parent but it was like it was so close that i was like what and i don't remember i was it you that called me about your mom cliff and i was like what like not again so yeah there's this like re-experiencing and i don't know if you felt this ricky too like with sharon but lives like the [ __ ] like and i remember like with ricky's death specifically there was like i don't know like there were little things that i did for example like designing like the the funeral programs like i was so serious about it because there were certain things i didn't get to do for my mom and so like i'm and i'm still proud of this program it was really beautiful well i was like no i'm going to design the [ __ ] out of this program like there was just certain things i was like you know on one end it was like damn not again i got to go through this again but i was like all right it's coming back around like this feeling is coming back around and like you know what can i change this time what can i see differently how can i help out i'm a little older now you know i'm not that 18 year old girl you know and like i don't know there's just something about it about i don't know tragedy coming back around you know and it's like this [ __ ] sucks but also like what can i see differently you know what can i feel differently and to the compound on one thing you said too um even though he was the voice for ricky's father um in a sense he was the closest thing you and i both had from one to a father i was i was getting ready to say that as well yeah and that's that's what made it so difficult for me as well because it was like of course i i lived with him too he he cooked he made his jokes and it was just so many little things i was just like wow like that was so tough to process and then as we said before there's this the the stigma of um being a man and having to be strong and and and tough it out through the pain and it's like right why why does it have to why do i have to be weak if i'm showing emotion um and i'm glad mental health and and vulnerability and um sensitivity is kind of being more of a thing that's being brought into the forefront and uh being more normalized now so um now the people who had the stigma of oh black people can't go to therapy or men can't go to therapy or um you're less than because you need help it's not like that anymore and that's that's like one of the greatest things that our society is actually moving in that direction and still it is on us to figure out even though it is going in that direction to jump on board with it because i i still i still walk a tight rope on both sides it's like yeah i'm gonna be sensitive to things sometimes but i'm still i still gotta be a strong man in public or something like that yeah no absolutely that is uh that's a great way to put it because you know i'm older than you and i came along before you could even show that type of emotion and all that kind of [ __ ] you know so it's definitely good to see that people can open up and men can open up and not be looked at a different way for opening up and expressing their feelings and being vulnerable so yeah i agree yeah i agree too and yeah the way you just put that cliff was really beautiful and poignant and i think more people need to hear it like more men need to hear it more black men specifically need to hear and then more people need to hear i think women need to hear it too you know so there's not that like pressure to put on like the men in your life like that they have to be this like macho dude all the time like that is not strength like going around beating your chest like pretending like you don't feel that's easy what's strong about that honestly like that's easy you know like talking about it like crying letting it out like being human like take guts that [ __ ] is hard i don't know why anyone would consider that weak you know how hard it is to like feel your feelings you know like that [ __ ] is hard that's incredible strength and so it's harder to tell someone else and that part that part and yeah and to mo in front of people and like yeah let people see your weak spots like showing vulnerability and and being in front of someone and being like i'm gonna show you this and i i'm gonna trust that you're not gonna use it against me like what like like that's crazy that's crazy strength so i'm glad y'all brought that up and like i'm very proud to see y'all like yeah just embrace that and move in that direction because we don't see it often yeah just evolving on that aspect is it's tough but it's it's needed we definitely need it it is yeah especially as um fathers right who like have the next generation like because i mean that's how these cycles get continued like no because no one in the in the bloodline and the family stops it and be like all right this just stops at me you know i'm gonna be the one to like create something new um and and teach those that come after me to do something different so absolutely yeah that's true and and as far as the generational things go showing like you said showing the emotion showing uh besides um the sadness showing the happiness we we learn to be even killed all the time to not not get too high and not get too low so um that's that's like our family i'm not too sure how many other families were i could can fit this mold but like we didn't show much emotion towards each other so we never really hugged we never really kids we never really you know really engaged with each other in that way so that in turn that despairs us against relationships that despairs us against showing that love to our kids like i had to learn how to show my child i appreciate her i love her and i'm still learning how um being sensitive in those moments how to get out of the awkwardness of it i've learned how to force hug my my daughters and kiss them and tell them how much i you know love them and how happy i am and and it's still awkward to me sometimes but it's like you have to you have to jump over that hurdle to realize this isn't awkward this is real this is what it should be and if you don't teach them this now they'll never learn it or they'll learn it in a different way that would be you know subjective to whatever it can be in a negative way yep yep absolutely or even having those awkward conversations like that's very i'd be like starting this conversation i gotta have a whole prep talk for myself before i have a conversation sometime so i mean you you learn and it it comes but look how long it's taken us to figure it out right yeah it's a process it's a process and it is awkward and i think the body you know the body has memory the body remembers trauma you know the body remembers certain safety and defense mechanisms and so even when we do something that is healthy the body's like what are you doing like this deviates from like what i know like what are you doing and it could be like you said like hugging having a conversation something that we want to do and the body's like nah don't do that that's not safe you know like maybe i'll get hurt i don't know that just just give it a handshake you know like and our mind can like yeah get the best of us but yeah i think doing it on the level of the body like it's really powerful and yeah like the examples we set you know i mean one of the reasons i was so excited to like come on here and chat with y'all and to even grow closer to y'all is to also like heal the relationship i have with like what i think of masculinity as right my relationship or what i think of as of men and like who they are you know because i feel like the first the first people we learn from our families right our caretakers our siblings our cousins our children you know and so i don't know i think it's just really powerful to do that like right in your tribe right right in your family right in your community and like what does that teach us about how we relate to other people outside of that right the people that we attract the people we fall in love with the people we marry all that kind of stuff like it all starts at home very true yeah wow and even um branch off into i guess relationship wise too um i've had a problem with feeling uh affection or emotion being hugged or kissed and for the longest time i would reject all of that and it really damaged a lot of my relationships so like the the people that i would date that weren't so affectionate i would be more into it you know what i mean and and now that i'm with someone who the opposite of that it's like in the beginning it was just like okay um i would get hugged and i would tense up or i would get like a weird chill a shiver like oh this is weird but then i'm like don't you know but don't stop like i have to i'm gonna give you it's gonna work you know bear with me and that's when it's it's good to have someone who can um be patient with you and learn with you and try to take whatever steps it it takes to break through whatever barriers that your your family your brain generational things set in front of you yeah that's deep i never know that yeah that's very deep i'm learning a lot always god damn like y'all deep as [ __ ] like these my cousins y'all like yeah like ricky were you ever an emotional person like as far as like affectionate um i think it came as i got older when i was younger no stone faced and and you you learned i guess being younger too that sensitivity is a form of weakness so that oh if i'm the nice sweet good guy i'm gonna finish last nice guys always finish live mm-hmm so it's like didn't even notice the the bad guys or the the ones who are disrespectful winning the girls and like whoa like is this who i have to become in order to to you know to get to get out there to date to be noticed right and it's a shame that was something that's big in society like that and then that that creates more of a vicious circle because you're trying to become someone who you're really not and you're trying to pretty much dog someone out and women become hurt by it and in turn hurt people hurt people so now they want to become like the people who hurt them right and now women are becoming heartless women are becoming emotionless so now they're like oh you know i'm just i'm just going to call you from when i need you and you're like i'ma call you when i need you so then it's like you you get you get faced with the oh you can't be too thirsty now and that all stems from just wearing that mask of i'm gonna be who society makes me think i should be yeah it's it's so true and i often think about like just the ancestral history that black people have you know what they went through during the times where they were enslaved like they had to be tough they they had to like suppress their feelings like their whole survival was on the line you know like especially black men like some of the stories you read about like what was going on and what like the masses on the plantation was doing you know like picking out the toughest man and like breaking him down in front of his family you know and then like the role of the woman and the mother like wanting to like toggle the sun protect the sun it's like so much like just dynamics going on there that happen that i believe we still carry in our dna today that we still have to like heal and like learn from like you know civil rights movement and all that kind of stuff that wasn't that long ago that was not that long ago and so i feel like black folks we're making like great progress but we have we have so much work to do and i think a lot of it happens on the level of like the emotion the heart and a lot of it has to do like with the family and like yeah black women and men peeling together black women healing together and then black men healing together right there's certain like things as a black man only another black man can help you heal or it can help expose and and can help talk about and the same thing for black women um yeah so yeah shout out to black folks healing because they don't even bang yeah it's yeah we do need it we do need it and our healing is is very layered this is very difficult it's a lot going on so anyone that like even begins to open that up like is incredible incredible because i work we did our brothers and sisters or kings and queens definitely need to come together and uplift each other and and have each other's back like that and that that's that's that's an amazing thing when it all becomes such a cohesive thing that that's something that's definitely needed yeah there's a big level i think of like mistrust um between black people you know in the black family between black men and women and it shouldn't be like that you know i walk down the street sometimes i'm not gonna lie there's a group of black men i'm like ah i'm scared like i'm not gonna lie like and that's terrible that's terrible that i feel that way you know like i should feel protected i should be like oh here's my people you know but like there's so much mistrust that that black folks have towards each other and understandably so um but yeah that quote about like hurt beating hurt people hurting people i'm like well healed people gotta heal people right i've hurt people hurt people healed people must heal people you know the other side of that equation people have to want to be healed it doesn't work if you don't want to be healed that part that part i'm triggered ricky i'm like i'm lying no i'm triggered i'm triggered as someone who has tried to force healing on people in a way like or has gotten disappointed as a highly sensitive person that like someone's not opening up in the way that i thought they should like it's triggering like i don't want to be healed yeah and they have to know that that healing is something they can do themselves too right like we can't do anyone's work for them either that's true yeah halen does start with from within so it's a long journey but we definitely need it in the black community we do well shay thank you thank you very much for joining us on this edition of our 4k podcast we've about to call this like a little interlude side story whatever you want to call these episodes healing episode i like that thanks for having me definitely definitely you know you could come back at any time oh say less you're never going to have to have another one now we're going to implement it with this no but thanks for having me you got an open invitation so that all right well thank you very very very much once again ladies and gentlemen this is the 4k podcast that we're signing out thank y'all for watching thanks for listening see you next time
2022-01-18 06:04
