it is known that the manufacturing of chips mainly takes place in asia certainly the packaging of chips and testing so-called per kent occurs in countries such as korea philippines and china started two years ago in nijmegen on the novelty campus chip integration technological center was initiated by semiconductor company lampion xperia nxp who saw the need for technology development for the back-end i talk to Barry general manager of a CITC about the progress and his ambitions this is with scentchips i am not a raijmakers where you welcome thank you no we are going to talk about the back-end known and semiconductor industry and you have been around since well think about two years you are the program leader or director of the CITC to be it too yes we call it general manager shell man for the director at medical reportedly but I suffer that tent say yes yes merckx recently did a research on per kent that was worldwide according to their branded brand is a german research institute which keeps an eye on china and especially technology mentioned as pitch and market a total of 3 14 years dollars per so say about 40 but yes CITC now in that was in 2019 the will now be about yes to 50 billion if you talk about the machine market for deeply CIRT that light there is about 3,000 $60 million sms grown 20 percent in the last year and study demand of most of that work and activities that those packages of chips that happen in in asia if you look at his p&t that had last press conference said sit and see pie chart where it became clear that china buys about half of their machines that is a huge amount of activity and asia and sends question of what what do you have then you should be left alone you this you are you just come to see what is actually because yes actually to you why warm are you also region well maybe it is good to take a step back and take a look at what does the asp looks like the market just describe the value chain then i can also explain a little better where we fit you have parties that make gypsy your parties make machines to make tips and then you have design house there are all kinds of different parties material suppliers and in addition you have the crossing of that piece actually found ant and piece back at ya so what you say is all correct the market if you look it also had the packaging companies that pack the tips on a large scale that are especially after see we are talking about here there are outsourced blind test yes and we put that name in asia with a name in asia and then you have to think those are the very big factories where so many lives come in very much packed the chips packed advice is say go out that suits me to my asia look at started from cc in i was former director of what was then run out of jobs circle ductus are now called dutch him buttons and we actually started research within the netherlands into the need to develop new technology together and and a kind institute where around specific simple technology collaboration takes place between companies universities and we very quickly came to the conclusion that that need is mainly in the backend and sand and you are right that the also had it so the this you suit achieves something that that in asia are but the companies that need new technology around integration and packaging, they are also in europe yes we are there for the dutch d over and exp yes those are the ai that have ms the independer device many factors it stands for I believe that being from the chip makers or suppliers is the one who develop new tips and that have to be picked up and the trend in the semiconductor industry is that there is more and more added value in the basin and partly in the packaging and integration, but where in the past you could finally say well 9% of the f word and there were goes in front and sit it is goes as many transistors as possibletrying to get a life yes then you have to finish it saw me in half and grab it well we'll do that somewhere it doesn't matter as long as it's as cheap as possible yes that's where it comes from and now you see that also the international hope map the out of the us hope actually replaced is sm i got up through their work and hope that's now the illusions integration roadmap sees more and more attention and f-word goes and that the challenges move further and further after the mouth and because of me well that is actually what we have responded to with cc by looking at where is the need to start in the netherlands have our new customers who will mainly be outside the netherlands and then you see that around very specific domains for example high power tips or high frequency your frequency chips' that there is a need to develop new technology around the packaging and integration again and there we are playing with two chimps and that ultimately also those too k shots have to be involved that is so have on the technology that we develop together with our customers you eventually have to be industrialized so it has to end up with such a sat because they have to use it to go or grab at high volume yes but the development of the technology itself yes there I think it is very sensible that you do it here because then you are not terribly dependent on those shots in asia yes you just mentioned rf a power yes when you with big business class semiconductor say have done research and exp amp leon and xperia who formulated their needs for back-end yes that's right yes can you summarize the main message of the ones from that bucket and those now mizora and you and graphics designs manufactures shift yes what was their main message to what did I have what was it exactly the need for back and research because that pays that's what you talk about handling yes your development year in which that it is good that you distinguish between yes and render we are if you have such fluorescent levels and that technology is savior levels we are higher than an hour of fishing time we do not research him in that very low say t there are levels where we our goal is real and that is also the assignment you come ask the needs of those companies to jointly develop technology that is also further developed with a real intention to initialize so do not stop at a trl level where says I have a made a prototype and if I can do it that will work great fun against industry no you are massive you are developing a formula with which it was, as it were, afterwards in the factory british empire with which our customers can really go after that in the factory realize and pink had could be picked up immediately afterwards year wisely speaking the next month exactly well that goes so fast I don't know but no but that could also be had but can also fine the ride em be myself and look you also see more and more ai that it is there between the company that just mentioned who also do the packaging part themselves because it is such an important part they don't outsource it but they don't do it only for onrent even if nxp you with that no 8 but also the back end they have their own party for xperia's money also so can at the heathen the technology we develop together with our customers which can either end up being outsourced after a patent sat but can also be fine within the customer itself once again a seat yes you can see that for example one I will just mention the largest of them and that they always live mca the package weaver yes they also stack tips on weavers and they do that with a they can just buy them directly bond to buy you get small connections that is yellow shaded technology for packaging those so-called chip led are those are tips from different process note that put them together bind them with whom you other tips that slide that contains exactly those patterns to connect those chips' well those basic tips those are the chip lets true level in the endcomes out a whole grave very out of the package tsmc invests in that technology and keep it completely to itself that is not something was with she also had laying that technology is so strategic also so capital intensive the ophthalmologists do not have enough capital to invest in it investing tsmc can easily get there but in addition it is also much more strategic so that is what it is with yes it also fits if you look at where they come from as from three pounds and fungi then this is also a logical step that she can expand yes I think this is a more logical step from a fountain of rio than from the oh dear because the technology texting is so advanced and the accuracy and decoration belong to this that you can also call it traditional from a call it that I understand that it is difficult is to make such an investment in that direction yes but it is also one if you look at the so m lucky too big map there are actually three parties that cannot do this intel samsung and tsmc that is the way in which you are going to shape that 3d integration well it is just so strategic that you want that for you we assume that she also had to he not you that is also a domain we are not concerned with no because one you already gave it to the investment that is never to get that done we can't do that either and and two that hey big party are working on it year we are not going to be a little thumb and maybe also good just to say that need from our current customers is not in that domain either no come back to what we said earlier that for example high-power chips have a completely different challenge what is it about yes thermal coefficients so at the moment you estimate large currents through the chip let it run then materials will expand and if you are going to pack it so integrate with each other you do not do that well with those materials then those things pull then they burst then there is a loss of power s those are completely different kinds of packaging challenges than chipsets and yes that is also in other me yes your development is also much more in line with the strengths of the european mariza as you can see that for example in power the mine also in good work great gigantic big ow shame like or ride em just like infinium of course the just make your own chip bunch nowadays have fast net invests in the grower app in racing is purely for ears for power offer new materials just like swisschamp that is all actually very much focused on the automotive industry it's not just you car engine I'm also thinking of the energy transition think of those windmills solar parks if you are ready to electrify everything then you also need all your tips that control and check that there must also be the largest about the so I'm just typing broad bill the entire energy transition is to a large extent also dependent on or linked to those high-powered chips yes those d at makes possible and the means that was there is a great demand for technologies to make that safe reliable with repack yes and with the right materials and non-toxic materials it is lead-free materials for example they are also one of the areas we are working on but exactly there what you say there you see a need from the market and we then started when it comes to high-power example with lantern and xperia in our program lines amphion who does that from their rf thesis are also high-power because that's the b stationed yep are not no in phone can still tame and xperia from yes the real the high power chips that can be applied in all kinds of tom he me but you see that the growth in the swimming pool domain very much so to speak in that when my is in high power and that the package is a challenge there are many, I mean we have chosen a few together with our customers but we are the whole packaging or back-end around my sitting there h many aspects in many different challenges in which we take the course after a few like we zoom so is this this this thermal aspect of high- power tips that is a very important one with us where we then look at which materials this includes combining combinations of materials which ways to package chipz, say, fit best with a large flow and therefore not only work well, but also continue to work well and so we also test that with the fermi cycling, for example, so that's that high power piece to the heirloom she is so really about high frequency piece what we do together with rimmed and xp there you really have to think about yes 100 richards plus through my so really very high frequencies for among other things guess there you have the whole other challenge when you start packaging a chip that will eventually work on that kind of holiday, then if you do not do it properly you have a chance that part of the packaging can act as an antenna will act what you do not want or what you do want but you must be able to do it in a controlled manner at the start of always have four program clean one defines its power other that and raft you high frequency the third is yes we do that it is my factoring the use of, let's say, 3d printing or additive manufacturing for making packaging is a completely different way of making caps where and adding vaux lumus is not the most important but the possibility to make new types of pallets with rtv and factoring that not made in another way who cares about it and infancy or the most there do not have more concrete customers at the moment but we are looking very closely together with hollow stones holst how we can use the technology developed at the highest level for packaging standards and the last and that is also an important one is the integration for tonics term if you look at the main leader industry yes that is very much mature industry with one many players who are all specialized a large part in asia america now the in the way for barrels market is still very small there is not yet that stabilization that is on the the number of players is still many small the volumes are very low well you see here you see that for example b see already mentions it in their japan lessons meetings see that clearly as a trend yes but ok yes we were talking about tmc tapes donkey party he looks really nasty integrative tonics and and how that say the growth that yes surely is coming how they respond to it and so we really took that as a separate theme from the beginning with the call from cc I very strongly did a photo delta together because I noticed workshops were organized from the then still from dcs where people from the photonics domain sat together in a hold with people from are also under me and yes that went no g not or that didn't really resonate yet the one said yes we do name what a thousand or a million chips' we do and add you already add three hours per hour no p yes and this is the the volumes were very different but the challenge too and now you see that that is about 3 4 members now you see that those domains understand each other a little better and where better to find and my view is that we can use the knowledge and experience that the netherlands has on the field of packaging in the together my what there is a lot certainly also here below me that we have to use it to create a kind of acceleration in the display gift me because the package of darkened chips is not the same as the package of simple ones but the phases that you have to go through to arrive at large volumes and low costs yes those are the same kind of stories that the him has already gone through and and some challenges when it comes to high-frequency issues yes those are sometimes already solved these are we could me in that you do not have to reinvent the wheel in the display can me so we have also developed a specific program line around that and there it is already running for a while since last year that is not the case with us we took to the active aligna from phoebus with a chip in the package right there you really have to think of several phoebus that must be completely neatly slipped on the optical part of the chip that then of course also come so quickly and ultimately so well we also have you give up a consortium fluttering time that is called stage is right that the together with fix and physical instruments that are german party pam pa je that is a yes a specialist in pso technology can make very accurate positioning elements of pj cho said to hema is also involved yes the hema if we make blowing machines, especially for micro assembly, can you tell us a bit more about that yes yes we did when we started with that program line last year then we looked at where the needs are and well that is really on the active line that is one of the needs in that domain and then we looked for parties that have a role in this and active line is, for example, you have to position a bridge in such a way that it is with a human and if so over a meter yes and it becomes active indicates that you are doing that while continuing with light because only then you can do that alignment accurate enough you let the light through that phoebus little you actually watch while you that the new moment when you get it right so that's a process with a kind of feedback look say and you want to do that quickly because you didn't want to be ten on doing your bow so that's one of the major challenges in it in that domain that we are when looking for time that the active ones and came into contact with the hema none has a platform which offers the possibility to do that active alignment but not only that they have a soo rt kind of module developed that you can use for low lewis heavy the research we do but the moment you scale up again you don't have to develop the process again then you can use their platform is also to do that faster yes and they have the technology developed in the time she worked for mepper yes and and needed it and that alignment to control the blanket chips to take away the electron beams she did that with light map rest has unfortunately died but that technology is still there alive and apparently yes, so the aim is to quickly do allah and lyme and yes and and by putting those parties together that is actually what the ccc does the cc is a kind of independent research institute which brings parties together that jointly add more value than separately and this is a good example in small the hema at plan as the soon to eat is the oil and milliner build machine pisa is the module supplier opt ima sheena from the hema and really a crucial module because they do that alignment super accurate and nanometer resolution and fix is included that is we talked about oakshott before that is also a part of the veronica by me is so own what we said later that the gema machine will be placed in our cc lab we will perhaps develop it further so we have developed some things on top of that together with them and with those and customers who want to use that machine do that say but together with us in our lab and then have the option to use that machine either with itself and even bring the volumes up good luck or with fix so that's the choice of the customer yes I'm still curious what you think of it add what is specific what you can still do actually process development that was here that that is very often the case with us we have that machine i always say very nice machine but if you tell me that put behind it still nothing comes out you need people who understand the challenge of the customer we will soon be our first customers the spain who will take it together who grab the challenge of the customer and can make a translation of that the challenge for a solution where that machine then becomes a tool is to realize that solution yes that is not only the machine of the hema but there are also fine terraliner machines around that placemat they do or ultimately other steps in the process so you might what gema is a crucial part of the solution but often you need some other tools around it and the knowledge to go with it and we have that so we also have another tool we have people from december come industry walk around with us who really already have worked in his collins three for years who also understand how to be a process my challenge is to translate a process and then a process that can eventually also run in the factory ec It is not a process that someone has untangled and that someone in a factory would say yes but these never fit on our machines but vice versa and I think that is where our added value lies, so by making the translation to a process but a process that can also be realized in the industry yes yes we are here on the novelty campus in nijmegen we also take ours here our bacon there is quite a bit of expertise when you talk about sammy kom maybe you can talk about that yourself to you they walk like true here across the square anp r and then you can do that rest do that my literally do us people in the lab do that literally several times a week you have an x-ray machine scale well that's pretty natural and he didn't deploy his full time so we made a deal with tpr that as with a sample I said we put the can be one of us just walk in who had his training and he can do that g round works that does take pictures and also back half an hour later he states to that and that is an example at the same time we are with blinker fen look for the right around me and then in particular the more red gate so to speak to make or test it yes I will pick up an evans party that makes modules that also contain rf tips but they develop as where the system yes for example for microwave equipment and that microwave equipment is also used again in the process industry' and that not yet so very much in the kitchen so maybe the time is yes no that's right look they have a lot of knowledge about high-frequency board design for example have a head of beef chicken but you also have to put it somewhere on a plate then you need such a pcb that you have to design well a man on damage tamis and that knowledge we can also use that again yes after another good example is a senseo that is that is own also treasures who is here on campus from the beginning we have good contact act had with senseo where I have to say that it was at the very beginning there was still some ambiguity whether we would not go conclut not with me but I think more sentio you would copy yourself with send you the fly did we catch you I did them because it is they were already a bit hesitant about that exactly and skeptical and and I understand we understand I think it was also a matter of ignorance realize that is not involved enough in the establishment of ctc we have fortunately been able to overcome a by or join the cio of centrioles our council of advice and asked me for it and two by it if you see now almost weekly doing a job for sentio or then his job for us what happens then because yes that will explain steps because look at the moment that we have a place, for example, the mill must because we are one in that whole process then add to the treatment and that tendon wind but mole we do not have our own tools for them such as the is the in box italian and that about more it actually did it to kita of this the whole package yes there we actually say the art or with sand there and it is yes so hard types a mess what yes a round of applause dear do you want to know what you call because if you molten wrong you will destroy the whole chip again or that to the message old or you it sounds simple and you also have simple embodiments of holding but I think sentio specializes in the more complex versions its gio does not compete either with the standard also shots in asia me does specifically on sensors and with a somewhat more complex mouth and at the moment that we need a mole then we can ask sentio and then they do that found at the same time we have tools and people with us below about those also very specific I mention using some microscopes to do after analysis of things that essence has eyes dehaene yes they do that almost more for them so we don't compete on any of that the way we do no volume production and does he also send yes you could say well there is a part where your process development does that and deuce to them too and there just look at the moment we can be something can't or don't want to do the job itself at that time, being able to lay down years with us, see his work is going very well now, in fact, we have noticed that towards our customers or produces, the fact that we can include that in our proposition is also doing it we are not ourselves it is already our list of what we can do yes yes that is very much appreciated because there are only a few research institutes that can do that and we can because his job can and that is the advantage of such an ecosystem we can x -ray because he might have had to buy that thing a state bpr like us, he wouldn't have been with us yet and so you see that the knowledge and experience and the capabilities that are the hippocampus and some money are just so good also for things that nxp can do or that champion can do in a lab that we can use it as if we were to improve the entire proposition of ctc yes and and that is worth your synergy in the beginning had companies that did not match each other he is a direct competitor he is something out there is sometimes a challenge of course let work together on a certain theme yes that works best when you as an independent party have a kind of coordination rolling and that is exactly what we do as if you look at the xperia and ampli, they also have theirs and the whole ups and development japs just tell you how do you work specifically with that you can also pull it for equipment or to his neighborhood multiple forms of cooperation anyway too if you look at how we generally work with our customers, it's like this it's kind of one our model and a customer who wants to participate or say wants to work with us wants to get started with us pays money for that to get access to results but can also contribute what we call as in count that count for that hours heathen the customers themselves also supply people who join for days and hours but I also stuff there are especially a start when my just started got quite a few stuff also from na van ampul to for example a fine tag machine that came by from one of them they introduced it to us it was as nice a bomb as a bomb ok they put in say but it is given to us and that value is then included as an investment so that is a way in which we can work together that really tools are brought in that they come to us yes yes after that via travel and in addition we can also use service of our customers if he has that good weather of course you have to realize it won't come so quickly that I never think there will be an nxpd in a champion machine because they are in the field of r f are each other's direct competitors, so you take good account of that sensitivity is also not in the same program line lampion and xperia v and nxp sorry but those activities of nxp fuss area that is also not in the Netherlands jubilate too yes you thought that the vries dude activity was that put in the us yes help guys from the split off nxp yes ok if that's what you mean from the yes yes ok that's right do you find how far they still have here in nijmegen well you need fur shafts between the antenna side of the nxp and we mainly work with that in our program only that is not the high-power broken but that is seriously the chips that end up in the phone so you are right when it comes to a specifically that free scale piece that is not necessarily here in nijmegen and we measure that those two organizations have been split means that yes they are simply allowed to not work together from a legal point of view which we try very hard to prevent and that has it been successful so far that we put up the same things in our lab as those that are already on a lantern or an expert or an xperia yes yes then you have on the square kilometer you will place fields twice we try to be complementary that doesn't always work because some basic things you just need hey stories about everything you need but try to use as much as possible what is already there and don't put it down twice yes maybe you can tell about the stage you are in now you started with ideal buckets yes you work in between with material suppliers would we actually be the first step if you look at our growth that comes from there so we are now well ahead of the stage with more material suppliers on that too to involve as a partner viewers suppliers not so difficult then you go to do you say I want it if buy stuff from you and to deliver that is to but that is not the role we are looking for we want len together material suppliers in such a program research better solutions and then you have to involve as a partner that takes a bit longer also copied because material suppliers do not come from the netherlands and sometimes not from europe and yes we have to build a relationship with those material suppliers who sometimes come from japan yes you don't want to meet it physically so you are starting to notice again now that there are a few that are really far ahead of the stage to participate in such a program line where we now say but make the deal megaton I can say symptoms oh it has itself gentlemen vest I French maria don't know if that is well that is almost he have spoken with only yes also that branch here it is not coming yet completely off the ground they were already on our list you get the fact that they will return the show very soon and who yes yes yes no certainly also there you have a situation that it is a direct competitor too of amplifon so you have to have that sensitivity on some aspects you have to take into account certainly it is certainly an important thing he was alone here but I would say especially if you cooperate with material suppliers but should also in principle not be that difficult because if they have a recipe and one of your solutions then I say sand then you will of course take customers addicted to those materials that is exactly how we sell htc to put it that way that is exactly to teach the boundaries they must be willing to invest in that development and then you also have to share and that is what watch it innovation and share tweet so they also agree with you you have to be prepared to give a bit well give it away but be open and look it's something different when you say these are my materials here you have, for example, in the high-frequency domain there is a lot of material and they have not yet been cleared risk it for 100 gr and we want to mention that because that is necessary if you make a package for a chip that works for me in the ad then you have to know yes how reacts to material the heap but that means that as a material supplier you have to apply a kind of openness you have to be prepared to share certain things with others and those others can also be your competitors is it about information that they already have or is about the material themselves it about research results of those of analyzes that you do yes also the latter so suppose we are now a collaborating rigging with both thee eindhoven and adele or those who have a certain setup to measure in that head and term that stick to me do not put it here again to reuse it yourself then you have to look at the moment that we then have their states yes that may be best to also share part of it with, for example, con current and other materials suppliers so that we can see how that is done in relation to each other, for example, but that is also a certain sensitivity to that you have to make good agreements about it, then you must first have confidence that you are doing it the right way so that takes a little more time well it could be she I like and putt a serious game also likes a benchmark yes yes and then lie not only a statement like he does it again does not quite do it but no but that's what you now sometimes no but he can get up to 102 fm egi yes because what you now sometimes how it is that, for example, adms use materials and the feedback can then be a nanomaterial supplier yes it does not work yes but you do not have that much we try to see why does it not work and when does it work it is that that is something else that is real way and cooperation than a supplier customer relationship and where you say I buy something from you nen and you pay so much to hear and so that is step 1 to the material suppliers and at the same time we also look at the machine, it takes a bit more time I think it makes sense if you are going to develop a process yes then eventually there will also be machines but it is not the case that we were the first to build the machine have said his degrees well I put all machines with us more we are going to develop those machines on the basis of that process that is also specific processes need specific machines like those machines do not exist yet and building the machine also sees a lot in that process or in that folder here too yes then you have the option to involve a chili bowl and together with that how jimbo then that when we continue to develop yes so that is the next yes and and new their ver can you do nothing for them pier the every number something bc in applied materials they have a new collaboration apply theo schuyt develop cluster tools for the assembly machines especially to really make that heterogeneous integration of those chip leds possible that is a very cool process they have in shelly boer they have set up a facility for that if you look at the netherlands and what you can offer what is there exactly what could you do for yes that is it think a different scale the but you are talking about you are talking about two seriously large parties listed companies i think you should look at us when we develop a certain process and hear that is with us always in innovation and therefore the processes that we develop these are processes that work within two to five years after the market or mother on the role we have is one and oh man is building such a machine in that process to show if that is the case and only then that that process can only be successful when you also have tools that support it and that we don't do that by hand no ro with which tools and then such a machine has to build what I already said very clearly yes this process is indeed the process where there is a need for the markets in the market so then you add the eye that involved him from the start that says from that side I want on that process that is an important process for me and then you can develop a certain tool together with such a machine, so that is a slightly different scope I think in a slightly different scale than the working together that just describes yes where those two very good parties are developing a sweet platform to do that chip led integration yes well I am called because it considers any market demand there and makes hundreds of millions per year excavators will deliver machines two and a half million each in the coming two years, so you have so much more serious earth if you look at the netherlands, if you put it together, we have quite a lot of expertise here if it is not possible ekend go you have bayes bosman applied materials read the icing is here in beuningen i would also be pretty close so if you chat everything in a row and think you think you can say that the netherlands is one of the focal points not only on the front and too if you look next to milk but also found and asami amell but also in known that is notso very well known is of course also less capital sintesi or as a front-end if you give it a heap then you come in terms of her expertise and a long way yes then you also have that admin is here who apply that and so so also think an important one we don't only have machine builders but we also have chip makers for those who know that piece by each has always been very important mine was always important yes i wonder what opportunities do you see for that industry heroine now goes the netherlands and europe they are now wondering hey where are our where are the points where exactly do we need to invest in the netherlands now wants to join a research program european program apps they are coming do you have free funds or countries can invest extra themselves in developments that are closer to lie on the market, so have a closer to production, more freedom with its also think larger amounts, this never about microelectronics, so the latest ct is designated as the Netherlands will participate in it think that they were known yes quite a good chance to give extra gas there also happens once we are very actively involved in it I said yes so to answer your question I see two two directions one is really that photonics direction that is a whole new domain with new challenges in which the netherlands well pre-sorted seed in the pelvis and look everything I say forget nothing sometimes we say but is always known relates I never talk through found him we are not in it then also working state if you look at what I said before, so in the mouth and photonics the challenge is great and I think we have the advantage in the Netherlands what you said with and mechanical engineering and the AI dms and the knowledge that is available in the field of back-end, we have to use it to give photonics a pendulum in recognition area, so that there that is one of the directions and after that you see that look I don't think the Netherlands will be good at it in the 3 d plug of ciplet because that is where earlier concluded that is not what is here and that is not yes where we have the knowledge experience do not have the big ovation so i do not see that domain as a growth through my of the netherlands what i well see is where can you be the she in that in that in specific domains such as high-frequency mine the main best mine to get there with solutions yes what the market needs and the and in the end yes that value chain you can join don't see it separately hey so you have you and at the end yes then end customers need the site ems those who have the need you also need material suppliers but certainly also machine builders but if you look at the netherlands then we are you in particular in the field of machine construction and the supply chain around asml we are great that is also recognized worldwide the knowledge and experience that has been built up there in that front and term because I am super accurate is a su per high end that we must also be committed to because the back-end is growing in that direction yes more and more and accuracy increasingly important part of the total yes yes you have it or if you are talking about a new bonnink techniques have this about and more than a million bon dingbats on a square millimeter and he that's it you so under the micron far far around micron and then you are actually a bit on the site where liters of coffee were in the 80s eh he see we call sometimes middle interest there invented the where jobs and the mouth knows each other such a party as they let cover they also make machines for real are actually steppers but then for cover and give me just a little work you ladies together that not yet not yet and that has things to do with the fact that we have consciously chosen not to do anything in the area of weaving level yet and that has had a few were and have already had the pants for a while the moment your package in or integration you do o p weaving lay or panel of scale then it is that is a different direction i am not saying it is not important but the direction that we have entered into a not yet our customers say that need is there a level in the cooperation with us not our customers and they require other investments you also have to be realistic we have been working for two years we have received some kind of starting capital and public funds of 10 million then you can do fun things with it but if she ends up in this domain then it is probably 10 million with two months on just the me white with you need to do that so we chose to do that or not no but you've been working in this field for two years by you've delved into that march loose what you do for that market makes me wonder what initiatives the dutch would take to help the industries they have and that do have a role in that sharks and backend activity for i now em him my pc leadtek monkey it is also bosman to strengthen those parties who continue to play that pioneering role and the because that dies b you see is now so strongly positioned for the chocolate integration together with ply terios and you do that for intel and tsmc samsung are working on his p&t i think more inside well how do you ensure that as the netherlands that that should also be the case in the future industry as a whole i have you i wanted a powerful industry and just mentioned asml there is of course a lot of knowledge I think that with an xperia, if you do have a lot of knowledge when it comes to positioning and fast assembly and quick pick-and-place, yes, it should be shared more, so that initiatives should come so that all those parties can take advantage of that well I draw a button more often firstly there is a first part of the answer is not whether the netherlands alone even though we are a very good party look at must of course in between the steaks on box and against asia and america because those are the on say but also on a larger scale are the three parties that are active here so i think we should work together more on european pan that i said them example how that could be that is not only dutch correct pro-european level and second i think we had earlier in a conversation about also sat the the real big parties serve asia sit and on large volume do this the packaging i think in certain domains for example weaving level packaging or other very specific pectin integration domains also have to think carefully whether we do not want to invest want to invest for that kind of year factories I would say set up more production facilities in Europe in the Netherlands do not compete directly with what has already happened in Asia but choose a domain which may not be fully grown up yet but where a lot is still going to happen you could think of singing integrative tonics like spots and facilities for other english power rf power en hef exactly in those domains where the application domain, so the end customer, are also in europe with a whole car engine that we have to invest in a production facility there because the moment you that then does and you involve the one who is owm in the ci machine building is then all around i have you can you can say you can reason very easily well you know we are going to develop processes here and then then we will transfer to asia and they go tama they run the risk of this is that the knowledge surrounding that makes process disappears further and further that and at that moment they can do it themselves they no longer need you and I also think if you have to stay ahead as a tip vector in in your domain then you should in any case not be too dependent on everything you want to test that every time first to azimuth before you have a stately one and then you actually want in your backyard you also want a t e start with a pipeline, but preferably eventually also a production facility wherever it is made and I make the investments that are necessary for this that ties in well with such I said yes I think we should not underestimate how important it is that we keep training the right people to do this because we can talk I could be about investments that have to be made and when I need money set up my facilities but in the end it's about people who are there and you also need the right trained people and that is also a concern of mine personally but think in this domain that you how many people really choose technology and specifically those that derivative technology in a training career i go to average HBO and let outboard swimming could fall and they all watch grains and yes I really think so I really think it's honor the link between the technical HBO and and the main line the Netherlands series there is a lot to do if it is already there then he thinks rather in eindhoven with to sign up as around it I'm talking about that basins we are active almost zero and that is also the reason that those who had a peach training are always under because once you are interested in this domain and show what beautiful things happen yes then people would rather work alone but if I know that we don't have real money either one thing but well-educated people is at least as important yes you have laid the foundation for what is now holland his doctors are there you started with business class clusters and product it was quite successful dude i saw you there a few years old and then i guess we look too warm feeling lauras as people and up and down enterprising way that do that in that regard are you blackbird entrepreneur than land to them because if so I hope so no it's so nice that you mention this i just want to correct a bit i wasn't setting up these jobs that was once he was in front of me so he hadn't done it a67 and already pulled to a level where i could get in he could from original and I am first to his arrival at it actually I have not taken over a place I think yes five six done well I am there connecting rescuers so sometimes a role as directors they do odd jobs that suit me very well because I love people connecting I get goosebumps like if you can connect people to each other or you get sick and there what fits a need there we also enjoyed doing it with great pleasure yes five six many kin have been abroad in asia the main pipeline is on the way ironing in china why a little bit yes and and in the end I have co-developed the switch to exe from bcs and on broad with yes that must also be someone who guided ct and and I also have a good time after day of I would like that i am i am also a bit and enterprising i have always had my own company from incident time already and now still a small business next door i really like entrepreneurship because it is very pragmatic and very concrete running his jobs is also super nice but what I started to miss a bit was the product stabbing the room you don't make anything you see you connect people which is super nice but in the end yes what is not doing yourself or yes ok until you see yourself so with that we took the chance to also take that step to the cdc, say, what of a very nice one and not regret it for a moment, the cc still does not have a physical product in sense we do not sell a chip ourselves we sell innovation but I really like to see the distance to after business is of course a lot small or to erase once more concrete than in the case of the bcs but the role that such a cluster has in a Dutch and product is still super important in my opinion because yes it is a kind of lubricant it can be if it is done well between all the parties we have I have always had an SME myself and still an ace and the scope of the average SME you're not yes yes that's here for a month maybe skin half a year from where do we want to go and i think such a cluster has the chance to bring them together in time let them hear the voice of that in time too in the hague and because in the hague a lot of the big clubs know but want to verhoeven SME first don't get around it and also be able to do international things that really just bring benefits and and we were just talking about i said yes there is of course that will be then not drawn by names and xp and asml but the idea is that the things that come out of it also grow from SME while i think if you talk to random SME i said he'll go look at your glasses from that it don't have a clue there such a cluster too n where is it ctc if you stand your light in five years take a look 5 we have the ambition of is expressed I myself also for sorting or not just for the impact of becoming known well well that's quite an ambition that is mac of course a serious big one also already with it itself also package activity itself also mouth and yes more weaving level so in that respect we don't compete and are also together with them in a kind of good fund for selma well I look it cc you have to ultimately that is the ambition of me and also of my colleagues to become a reputable institute around pressing integration in europe and not all packet in all integration but in the domains in which we are active they as i mentioned before i really want to make sure that we yes it being an institute that people turn to when they have a certain challenge day because then translating it into your grandeur have the hands and how that is always more difficult to name you name that is what bottlenecks are still about here t what he notices that there are some obstacles in undertaking well at the first obstacle is surely the cabbage white and we are not the only ones but yes that is something that is outside your sphere of influence but we have really well as for that is now slowly go away for a month so we can really go full throttle their names go abroad yes the other look share tin ovation sell that takes some time so we have to deal with that we have to convince parties that that room so time with are I said it before were filmed partly with public funds we received 10 million from the province and the municipality without those funds we could not have started that will also be a necessity in the future so it is not that after 5 years we will be can stand on our own legs we can't manage that some kind of institutes can't so one of the two lifts is bones neck but then the challenge of challenge is why to ensure that we also retain sufficient public resources or b bodies also obtains that period of five years and in doing so I do not only look at the province or the municipality because I think you see this because of great radiation but precisely to the empire and europe so take that would ultimately be your customers who are already expert napoleon it would be clear that they have an important voice in the sea and in and certainly veggie help every mee jari who lobby along as they find it important then they should have that there was also an encouragement yes no that's right but but what you need at the same time is an awareness and luckily there is more and more that allow this kind of yes crucial key technologies say and everything that has been built around it in the Netherlands that if you keep it through and expand it further that also requires investments and public investment and luckily I always say we are in good times he everyone reads that it is short and chips' and everyone knows the dangers of china so what that as far as it is concerned, say it is the conviction zwerk towards example the hague will be easier but it is still a challenge it is not automatic so we will have to work hard to bring in new customers outside the netherlands and at the same time to ensure that our public funding' safe long-term cell to a special a nice closing couple thank you' this was with scentchips thanks for listening and see you next week
2021-09-14