Binu Jacob of Experion Technologies on The Art of Product Development

Binu Jacob of Experion Technologies on The Art of Product Development

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hey hi everyone this is binu Jacob the  managing director and CEO of experion   Technologies a product engineering  company based out of uh [Music] Kerala so boo welcome to the founder thesis  podcast uh tell me your journey of becoming an   entrepreneur actually so when I talk about my uh  you know initiative with experion I would like to   say that I was never meant to be an entrepreneur  so because I should have actually been a teacher   or a professor you look like a professor as  well yeah yeah so it all happened I think the   the intent or you know the interest to become an  entrepreneur happened when I was doing my masters   in IIT Delhi so kesab Mahindra was the person who  actually gave and handed the certificates over to   us so he was and invited guest for the convocation  so I think it was in um it was probably in 85 so   when we were actually passing out he was kind  of making out a call and he said look guys you   are all taking India government's money and then  going and making America Rich so I I I couldn't   understand what you saying so we had to be we  were talking about the brain drain those days   and then he said I've traveled around the world  and not even a single corner of the Earth where   where I have not gone and I have not found uh you  know a team like in the IND I mean Indians who   actually can do everything but then they are not  good at marketing and then obviously he went on   to talk about all that and and then he says that  I am betting on the talent India and I'm going to   create a project and he did not really talk about  the name of the project until then and he says if   this investment which was 675 crores is what I  think I remember uh if this goes down and then   you can be rest assured that you know Mahindra is  not going to be on the face of the Earth so that   was what he's meant and then at the end of the  thing he said this project is called the project   Scorpio you know so and U I mean life went on I  passed out I went to Dubai for a couple of years   kab mahra was like the an mra's father is it yeah  I mean I think his father-in-law I mean so he he   was the chairman before that okay so yeah so he I  mean I went on to Dubai continued with my work and   then I came back to India and I started finding  the Scorpio Jeeps on the road you know so that's   that's when I said oh my God this is what he meant  those days and I found it was really good I mean   it was a welcome change to see Scorpio from the  typical you know 455 and and those kind of models   so then U of course I went back to Dubai and  somebody from uh Dubai wanted to get me back to   India and then they said I've got this stpa rules  coming into India so I want to start an it what   were you doing in Dubai so I used to work for a  Canadian IT company I was into software testing so   it was mostly you know testing of Y2K days it was  I'm talking about 2000 so Saudi Telecom alah Banks   all these large companies because of Y2K they  wanted to have testing of software so I was one of   the test managers of course that happened because  I I did not have any background in software   testing per se I used to work in the armed forces  before this job I was in the Air Force testing   missiles so you know the the managing director of  this company Pac M McManaman he was actually a I   mean Canadian guy but he was again it service I  mean software testing guy so he said oh if you can   test missiles well and good you can test software  so that's how I got in you know obviously he they   taught us on how to uh what are the protocols  to take up a software testing in a structured   manner so that's how I actually got into the  job but uh of course my IIT thing was actually   mostly you know technology management so I I could  understand how products are conceived and then how   do you take it to markets all of that so this  guy in Dubai he said you can come down and set   up my IT company in India so you know ignorance is  bliss you know so went ahead and started building   a company it was a very tough job I mean from  zero to about 105 I conceived a product and then   I created a product started selling went into the  market and there was no money so this guy though   he committed a lot of money but he did not really  have enough capital so I switched over in uh 5   years I mean after having built this company to  about 106 people and then found a lot of customers   it was a campus Erp it was a concept that I had  actually created sold to customers in in Dubai   and K so that is my early beginning uh but then  I went on this company which you set up in India   was selling a Erp to colleges yeah primarily  universities and so on because India those days   it was indan colleges yeah engineering colleges  primarily and some of the universities management   institutes and so on I had about 35 customers that  I had personally gone and sold to at least about   20 of them that came on board and then people  were using it but the business wasn't making   enough money because the pricing was not properly  done so there was obviously mistakes looking back   don't you think the market opportunity itself  was very limited I mean even today colleges   don't spend much on it right it's a yeah but then  the sap had a campus version so there was campus   version which was actually priced very high for  the big universities and so on uh so but then this   was there was a market because I was selling to  the campuses in in in Dubai you know those days   because I based in Dubai so what happened was um  there was um you know there was appetite to buy   at whatever price I mean we not talking about  so we had itm Mumbai that bought this product   for about 25 or I think 35 lakhs so that was not  a small amount those days yeah yeah you know so   that that was interesting but anyway then we had  other products also shipping and trading related   but it was product conceiving products and selling  and then you know but that was the early learning   that I had because I after this job I worked  for a company called IBS which today I don't   know if you know that they are selling to the big  Airlines and big oil companies and so on so I was   actually selling products after this job so that  product kind of products IBS uh no IBS has got   cargo management for big Airlines like Lans and  things like that so yeah so yeah and then oil and   gas I used to man of few product lines in IBS so  that is how my product story continued you know   after being starting that initial company so when  I decided so that is how experion you know the   early uh Foundation blocks for something like an  experion happened those days so I had my friends   who are like we have four people out of IBS and  couple I mean we have got the CTO come from Sri   Kumar is come from uh quest which is today I  mean which used to be Nest so we had all these   senior people from IBS we had Manoj who's actually  heading the US for us we've got sures who used to   head you know IBS Bangalore and then Jamie who  was one of the managing one of the product lines   so all of us together we started thinking about  how to create value and how to create wealth and   I think that intent also happened because I  used to be in the armed forces and when I was   traveling on a continuous basis I could not find a  single product made in India so if you go to let's   say typical BMW uh bnq in in in uh let's say UK  it's 348 sorry bnq is a big super store which has   everything under the Earth you can buy building  materials you can buy you know grocery you can   buy everything there so you I was traveling  all the way it's a 2 three acre uh Superstore   and then when I mean wall I could find because on  my travels I used to find this uh you know Place   interesting so when I went around 34 hours there  I could find only one product made in India which   was a quir mat from alipe in Kerala you know and  I used to think what is this one six of India's   population uh I mean global population is India is  one six and we don't have anything Made in India   are we so low and on the value chain and I so that  was another motivation I thought we should create   something interesting and then so I sharing with  my friends that see look there is an opportunity   it is becoming quite you know in demand in the  world so let's not why not create a company   so that's how the whole discussion started and  obviously experion used to be uh you know called   in Forin and two guys one of my IIT alumni guys he  based in Germany and another guy from Switzerland   they already started a services company and on my  trips to Europe this guy came and met me and said   look uh we've got a small company but difficult  to manage remotely so can you come on board you   know so that is how the discussion all started  and then I went and told them look I've got these   friends who are proven to be working with very  large customers like the biggest airlines in the   world biggest oil companies so can you get them on  board uh he was okay but the Swiss guy wasn't then   okay that discussion went off and after a couple  of months these guys came back to me again and   said look let's look at your proposal that's how  the whole experi on philosophy started and then   we started we all met up together in Kerala and  then he said U not for your business plan but for   the people you know for the for the other Founders  that you brought in we game let's go ahead so they   moved out and then that's how we started in 2008  and 2008 you can imagine what is a you know uh   phase in the industry you know we had the prime  lending crisis but what happened was I think what   was critical for us we had the right team you know  if you look at the team that came along with us   the five co-founders that we have um there was  a right business knowledge technical knowledge   you know Market approach and so on but over and  above the value system ethics and integrity all   of that uh and and the DNA of innovation existed  so imagine what we started with we said we could   do Uber on text so that was a big you know big  initiative in 2008 so we went to vone vone said   this idea is great because arpu average revenue  per user today in the Indian Telecom is only based   on voice Revenue so when I talked about this Uber  on text which was like you know text message to a   short code and then you have somebody calling you  to take you for a ride that was a philosophy and   then we had book my show equivalent on text so  both these ideas vone said give us uh you know   the right to Market and then don't give it to  anybody else I said that doesn't work because   then they asked for six months exclusivity so  anyway long story short we could actually launch   this product to Market because vone took us took  us to Market so that is how it actually happened   and I remember the CTO of the company he said this  product concept can be created on Symbian phones   so there was no apps those days so that was very  interesting and then we actually created you know   Nokia phones we had this booking application for  movie theaters we had 129 theaters across Kerala   we launched it we had some of the theater guys  coming out so it was all you know great Fanfare   and we could see actually who's booking for  which movie you know and 22 taxi operators   who actually tested this product and then we  could actually have this work on lbs lbs is   nothing but location based services so so we had  the greatest idea those days but then obviously   2008 was you know all the customers we had from  Europe vanished because of the prime lending   crisis because they were from the financial sector  what was the existing business the revenues were   coming from what kind of services I mean we just  had 10 people so when I took over it was like 10   12 people and they were doing pure services for  fin fintech companies in Switzerland so that was   what they used to do so it was primarily fullstack  development it was those days net and even before   noted I think Visual Basic aspx do I mean aspx  based uh you know application developments for   this fintech company so and how much revenue  was it making I think it was some 72 lakhs   was the you know Revenue I when I took over okay  in Indian rupees so right that was nothing much   and you yeah yeah nothing yeah it peaked to about  16 people and then when I took over it was like   um you know 10 people plus one accountant so that  was it and we were in the basement of a building   in techn park called tasini so it was minus two  so parking building converted to a you know so   that that was how we didn't really have a lot  of money so what we did all of us pulled in some   money brought in equal stakeholding all of that  anyway uh so the products did really well in terms   of Market acceptance movie theater booking was you  know we could see on a good movie it would get all   the seats would get full we had a very limited in  inventory so but uh the technology that we created   was taken by you know Sun Microsystems to Mobile  World Congress and so on so it was very exciting   but now since we we were not making Revenue  because vone was making about 70% of the revenue   we were not really getting any money investing  and continuously bleeding so we buying borrowing   stealing you know whatever to sustain the  operations because for creating this product from   10 people we had scaled up to about 35 40 people  because we had to create technology on mobile apps   web apps all of that but anyway so we we decided  that we can't sustain not because the product was   bad because the theater guys themselves actually  said they were selling tickets on black so we   could not really uh run with this product when  movies were good movies were were being released   anyway so finally we decided to shut down these  products and then both myself and CTO I mean   SRI Kumar we decided to pack the bags and go  across to Europe start finding projects in   mobile application development so that was the  beginning so that was really how uh we could   find some customers to sustain revenues I mean  obviously we couldn't take any money home but   we had to pay the salary so that's how we kind of  got many small projects when mobile applications   were coming kind of coming alive and I think  2010 or 11 the mobile U iOS was launched then   later came Android so all these times we could  so s was very um you know excited to build new   technology so he would find youngsters teach them  technology you know everybody you know motivated   to build something exciting new so that's how  we kep kept on our uh Innovation DNA alive and   that's been there from then till you know even  today so today you're talking about AI so we've   got teams who learning that so that's how uh The  Innovation thing got us projectss from uh Denmark   Sweden because we used to go on a train journey  all the way from Sweden down to Italy so wherever   we could go and Pitch our mobile story we could  go we started finding projects and I think 200   uh 9 to 11 was very very tough because Market was  bad but from 11 12 onwards we could start getting   smaller projects and we continuously scaling up  so uh today what is interesting is every year we   have continues to Contin to grow except 2009 and  and growing quite fast so 2010 Manoj was there in   the US he started creating a US market I think the  first year Revenue was 250k you know US dollars   but we started recording you know 150 200 because  the base was small we could create uh you so H H   how did you acquire clients because at that time  uh very few companies would have been investing in   mobile applications because I mean if this was pre  iPhone uh you were essentially doing on Symbian uh   so this would have been a very very small market  so how did you even go and acquired this PL yeah   so we had we had contact see being in the industry  all of us were in the industry for quite some   time so we used to kind of call out people talk  about our technology skills so somebody would say   there's a mini golf application that's required  for a Netherlands company so we would go and talk   to them because nobody used to know how to make  mobile applications so I remember having gone and   talked to people through Partners known contact  even employees who pass you know moved out from   previous organizations all of them so uh we had um  you know cycling apps for because Netherlands is   great for cycling right there was a Danish Army  application where you know Armed Forces people   wanted to attract people into you know joining  the forces so all these different mobile apps   were kind of created and the biggest one we got  was Qatar Airways they were wanting to have a   mobile booking engine because Emirates was trying  to create one and they didn't know how to make it   so we had our team which was already created uh  I think about 15 people so we created Blackberry   applications Windows applications iOS application  and Android so four different booking engines for   katway that came from us so so by I think 2014 we  had enough case studies to group all these various   applications you know whether it is mobile mostly  mobile but even web applications into domain   buckets and 2014 we decided to talk about domain  stories and go to market so what was interesting   was every three years those days we could change  our strategy so you know so we scaling obviously   but winning customers we went to US market Mano  started the US market in 2010 I went to Australia   created again a small set of projects in Australia  through again known contacts so we were trying to   get projects from anywhere that was how it was you  know so 2010 to 14 the strategy was uh spray and   prey like you would whatever projects you can get  from whichever Industries you would aggressively   just try and acquire customers because you needed  survival you needed uh a capital base to be built   up uh so then how did this strategy change  from 14 onwards so 14 onwards we decided to   look at the Domain Focus so see I I had a clear  conviction that unless you are improving the   domain or improving a business advantage to let's  say Healthcare or retail you wouldn't really uh   stand out because you can talk about technology  story for a while but if you really want to talk   good revenues then you got to look at so we had  so the okay 20124 that is the time we decided we   go and do product engineering work because we all  came from product companies we said let's look at   product engineering and not typical services  like everybody does everybody does primarily   by loading bodies is it product engineering the  same as Services isn't it a service like how is   it different like yeah so product engineering is  see how you make products is a little different   from uh Services Services is mostly like let's  say G will tell you I need 2,000 people for my   you know various projects and you need you  know 100 net 200 Java that's the kind of and   they would manage the project you don't really  have to worry about product whereas uh typical   product businesses you have either an old product  that got to be created into newer skin or newer   technology uh or conceive fully new products today  you're talking about digital right so you look at   Uber Uber is a you know product that is a platform  which is completely digital so uh so the the nuts   and balls of building a product is completely  different from services so I can give you some   of the examples we have uh one of the you know  biggest retail application Builders you know in   Australia who's our customer so they have about  1,800 stores which are running on their platform   which is right from procurement to POS the entire  life cycle of running a retail shop you're not   talking about small ones you're talking about  25 30 tills you know like big Bazar or bigger   than that running on this product so it's a very  complex process of you know procuring or pricing   it right right and then managing different  departments whether it is grocery or meat and   poultry section things like that so so those are  products that will kind of repeat so the customer   gives us the order but then they go and sell  this products to multiple customers to make their   revenue so we have one project which is a product  engineering product which is a mission critical   business critical application for their customers  so that's the difference in products so that's uh   for retail now if you look at let's say the one  of the large Automotive companies in in us they're   using us to build their EV charging platform  so you go across North America and Canada that   company's particular EV charging platform whether  it's mobile application finding charging stations   or whatever everything is running on a product  that we built so it's a product that continuously   gets improved and newer uh you know cars getting  released you know the same application would get   upgraded so that those are products then insurance  companies I think one of the top three insurance   companies in the world you know again out of us  their product running in different in insurance   companies we are building so Property and Casualty  Insurance so products are typically uh interesting   because it's also got a road map like you have  your car right you have Honda Accord 2020 version   21 version 20 I mean so similar so that way  products are completely different ball game and   one is the stickiness you know once you build a  product you you understand the domain how a retail   is run how EV charging philosophy is there in the  market so all these things are actually understood   by your team and your team which is like uh you  know start with probably 10 people it grows to 100   people and it keeps growing or it you know it'll  get different um uh compartmentalized into uh sust   maintenance and core product engineering training  implementation so different uh buckets of uh you   know activities so that's how uh when you have a  product and then your uh domain knowledge is what   keeps you on you know because you would know how  retail is running in in let's say Australia and   UK all of that so anyway coming coming back to the  product engineering story so we pitched becoming a   product engineering company in 2014 what is uh I'm  assuming that infosis vipro all these it Giants   would all want to do product engineering as well  how did you as a small company compete with these   giants like like what do you need to do to build a  business in this product engineering space because   for them it should not be very hard to do it right  yeah see it's again about the scale see how do you   how does infosis find let's say their revenues  70% of the business comes from large maintenance   projects so you're talking about let's say Bank of  America or large Banks where they require tons of   people so it is all about fiveyear contracts 10e  contracts where they have this committed you know   thousand Java people and kind of things you know  so that so the for them it is just about the cost   Arbitrage and the number of people that's getting  built so that is a focus it is not that they can't   do project product engineering obviously they  would also have products like finle they have   which is a product which is inhouse but if you  look at the kind of percentages it brings in   very little Revenue but our thing is having lived  in the product engineering philosophy throughout   our past uh we could understand as to let's say  you're talking about 100 member teams 150 member   teams those are the kind of teams that will  continue to grow the uh customers business and   then sustain that business for long but then the  value the value chain uh that you are in is much   higher you know you're much higher in the value  chain especially the challenge challenges with   technology see uh whereas in a large maintenance  project you're talking about a small screen an   employee he would kind of work on a small screen  for one year two years and you'll get bored of   it whereas here you're looking at the entire um  you know philosophy of the product right from uh   let's say the conceptualization to productization  to implementation and you know and you will see   how customers are getting benefited like for  example this retail product we realize that   this um customer 57% of the revenue is from loyal  customers because they have done something very   special in the domain to create the Loyalty base  you know and then they were also winning customers   in other parts of the world because this product  was actually giving them better Roi so this is   really adding value see it is supposed to add  value to a core business so domain value addition   is a philosophy that that you know products are  supposed to play this retail product was like   the pa the retail PA for it or got yeah PA is one  part of it PA is the final bilding section like   you have but inventor iation youve got procurement  youve got pricing you got how do you manage your   expiry dates I mean a lot of those things how  do you planogram see if you put bread milk and   let's say eggs together they'll all get picked up  faster you know whereas if you put milk in some   other part so all of those also has got a bearing  on how the businesses run better h so I I think uh   so the products give you a lot of knowledge on  how to improve that particular business rather   than just giving bodies you know so that's so  definitely different uh in in the value chain   so that's what I meant okay interesting anyway  yeah so coming to the growth Journey again so   we were doing small product for small companies  let's say in Netherlands then we started looking   at the phase of growth that we did we said we  should look atmes today we have done product for   startups let's look at smmes so by 2014 to about  19 we were focusing on smmes who probably the deal   value could be 100,000 $200,000 dollar so that  shift happened from let's say $50,000 engagements   to you know 200 quarter million dollar and 2019 is  when we said these products were largely something   like an specialized Erp for that company like  to yeah it could be different I think uh so   the smes obviously will be small erps but uh you  know something like a mini goldf fac application   where to find your you know golf courses and  so on something like that for a startup was   different which was much smaller project it was  mobile applications couple of mobile applications   IOS and Android from that for startups which was  the the the core product of the startup which it   was offering to customers you were that also was  coming to you uh like people were Outsourcing that   to you yeah because somebody with an idea somebody  maybe who's running a golf course he would have   this idea and he would come and tell us can you  convert this idea into a product that's what he   so startups would be mostly new ideas to products  right whereas smes could be re-engineering this   retail application re-engineering an old product  to a proper cloud-based application uh now looking   at larger applications like today we have one  one of the biggest home healthcare companies in   the US they got 30,000 employees you know mostly  nurses and staff and they've got people who are   sent or scheduled to go and service a home uh for  probably looking after an old man so that kind of   a product is a huge application it's a platform so  we're building that again as a platform and you're   talking about you know three to four years  of product life cycle you know even more you   know it will keep on growing so from uh small  startup products to products so 2014 to 19 we   were focusing on domain and products so we shifted  gear in 2019 we said we should definitely look at   Enterprise because that's a bigger play and that's  a longer term play and that's how this uh you know   uh EV charging application or home healthcare  application or we've got one of the biggest   luxuy travel companies building their application  again three to four years life cycle so all these   platforms that we started building for Enterprises  happen in 2019 and in 2019 is when we found you   know we we had shashan who's in us he joined us  because he came from infosis able to Target large   Enterprises so we decided to focus both in Us in  UK as well as in Australia and larger Enterprises   so we have some of the larger Enterprises again  coming to us for product engineering so I would   say 83% of the uh business that we do is all  product engineering as a service and team sizes   are biggest I think is about 160 for this one  of one of the product engagements that we have   otherwise it's all 100 people you know 60 70  people but we have many of those engagements   so shifting years every 3 years to a new strategy  was 2019 when you did the pay to Enterprise what   was your Revenue like and um probably in 2019 I  would say we would have been about 12 to 15 that   range million dollars you know that would have  the I would say we were probably sub 800 people or   something like that and this was all bootstrapped  no fundraise completely bootst so that was another   thing so we had no way to go right I mean getting  the first cgtm loan was a challenge for us one CR   loan I think it was in 20112 we were struggling  we didn't have money so that that itself was s   because the banker who would say I mean those  days you're talking about CDs right the banker   would say your IP whatever is in sitting in a CD  what happens if that CD breaks you know that is   what one of the banker asked me as a question  I said see this is not CD I mean we've got a   product IP sitting there which is all interesting  so they don't understand that they said can you   give collateral so we were actually all of us  we had no homes our own we were all rented you   know those days so we said we have no collateral  to give one of the guys had a small land one of   the directors had land to pledge and that's how  we got that one CR loan uh even to sustain the   operation so that was why why did you need the  loan because see um as I said we were um we lost   the customers we were trying to just pay salaries  and sustain operation we were scaling so growth   was constant for us we were always growing but the  capital wouldn't be adequate right I mean we had   you know the typical compliance requirements youve  got the Provident fund your taxes everything gets   you know a backseat when you have to first pay the  salaries and keep the employees happy so we wanted   some working capital that wasn't available because  we brought in I think you know some 20 lakhs per   head you know that's how we contributed first but  with the prim Landing crisis all that money was   gone you know you got to build an you know we we  we did something interesting you know 20091 we had   a basement office in this parking area we said  to impress customers we should have a beautiful   office so we decided to go and sign up an office  we didn't have the money to build it so in fact   the park authorities who are kind of giving us  a space said you run it for six months pay the   rent later so lot of support was there in those  days you know but somehow that office also got   us some good traction customers came to visit it  was looking beautiful uh though we were you know   running in debt so all these um consumes Capital  so that was why we wanted you know uh loans from   somebody so yeah so coming back uh so 2019 when we  looked at the Enterprise and that is when the real   growth happened so 2014 uh when we were looking  at this product engineering uh for startups and   smmes we had sufficient Capital we could start  taking some salaries as well on the directors it   was very tough uh but U 19 onwards we did really  uh see the light at the end of the tunnel where we   could get customers customers could believe in  the philosophy because we had some of our guys   who are very very good in the middle level leaders  who understood the product engineering life cycle   processes much better than typical IT services  companies and that got us attention in front of   the larger customers and many large like this  EV charging platform they were not letting us   in for about a year but once they saw the value of  the product engineering life cycle they said this   is interesting because TCS is doing about half a  billion worth of Revenue under us but you guys are   bringing a different comp you know competence  to like so and that's how we got in there and   today we are like I think three four years now  what is this product engineering life cycle   uh so the process to build a product you  know right from because a lot of time goes   into planning the product it's like building a car  you can't just you know buy a parts and assembly   and then come out with a card you got to go to  the drawing board you go to see how uh the the   product uh road map is what are the features to be  brought in release one because you got to monetize   right so if you had to monetize rather than bring  out all the features to build a complete product   you will prioritize and you'll see that there's  something called radial mind map which is actually   done first and then you have uh uh you you know  you will think about the competition look at the   price so you're not looking at in typical service  but you're looking at a lot of the other factors   like what are the competitors doing what are the  features that is earning Revenue why is a product   like for example let me tell you in a car you  have got a catalyic converter somebody will buy it   because you know uh the bat 6 or you know whatever  Norms that are coming in will want you to have   that feature in the product so all those things  get looked into a product when you're actually   conceiving so our guys understand that philosophy  and that's how uh we impress the customers to say   look these guys are not uh typical Services where  they're talking about bodies but they've got a   different philosophy that's how we win projects  and and conversion rate is also pretty good if you   go and pitch in front of a customer talked about  uh the story that we've done for various other   customers see the biggest second biggest mining  company in the world I would you know they're   using a product to mine planning product to run  their copper mines and you know ior M so there   are smaller engagements but these are interesting  you know in terms of the uh the philosophy that   you're trying to take to Market essentially like  you need a uh like typically most product startups   have like a product manager or a head of product  or or a chief product officer or whatever so so   that that role you provide to a client like a  product management team yeah product proy yes   so we'll have the product proxy see client manager  would be the product owner but our product proxy   would actually work along with the product manager  yeah why is it called proxy because see product   generally see all the products that we build IP  belongs to customer so customer is the one who   actually is managing the product right okay we  have somebody who is mirroring him within the   company uh to be able to take up the role because  we are also managing the entire life cycle because   customer is most of the time business-  wise managing the product where technology   way we are managing the product and so your  product proxy would actually need to understand   both business consumer needs and product and  technology and like it it would be a really uh   multi-skilled kind of a person who can play that  role right because he needs to speak the language   of technology needs to speak the language of pnl  as well uh yes he also needs to understand design   uh wire framing all of that uh yeah yeah yeah  so we have all those all those those functions   so unless you understand unless you're able to  talk the language getting the deal will not be   uh easy I mean then you're not really different  from a typical services company so we would have a   domain so typical business analyst who understand  the domain well who if they don't really know the   domain fully well they would still research they  will still engage with the customers um you know   and and that get get that understanding so if you  look at this retail product I think we started in   2016 so this been going on for so many years so we  understand the domain pretty much the way they man   their product you so so that domain understanding  is key see other projects if you're doing a   project for six months you don't get that  domain knowledge you're talking about so   many years this insurance product I think it's  more than 10 years now that we've been working   that customer so all these engagements are very  long uh I mean uh sometimes we might also have   to bring people from the domain somebody from  you know banking Financial Services knowledge   somebody with Logistics background so we built uh  warehouses management application for customers   we've got that competency sitting inside you know  Having learned on the product itself sometimes   customers the domain experts role is to explain  uh what functionalities are needed like what the   product should do like what should be the outcome  of the product that is what the domain expert   uh guides yeah yeah so outcome and uh Roi so the  customers Roi philosophy should be well understood   customer business should be well understood  competitors's business should be understood   what are the products in the market how technology  is fairing see today you're talking about digital   transformation so we are doing product engineering  work you know in the digital transformation space   where you got multiple Technologies or hybrid  Technologies you know typically like all this   uberization or air Airbnb all these are products  with multi Technologies right multiple hybrid   Technologies you have mobile apps on one side  you got data intelligence giving you how to run   your business better so all these um so it's  a multifaceted role that this guy let play   fascinating uh yeah is your sales done by these  people only or is it done by a separate sales team   how does the sales happen yeah so sales people we  have people in the regions regions I would me so   our operations are between us UK Europe Japan and  Australia so Japan was a recent acquisition that   we did okay but all the sales guys what they do  is they'll go and find out customer prospects and   then uh we'll have our business analyst who are  part of the delivery team who are probably part   of the product team they would come and engage  with the customer in a typical pre-sale cycle and   say look these are the kind of skills that we have  these are the kind of domain elements that we've   actually improvised for customer X or customer  Y and then so hence we are well placed to you   know take up your project or product development  project so and then customer would look at oh this   is interesting many times we can't even share what  we are because IP protected but we let it go with   the stories and they would during the conversation  they would understand that these guys understand   what they're meaning you know so that's how uh  they get the confidence to entrust the product   engineering work to us and then obviously it  is a typical architecture discussions and why   would this product scale you know for example  let's say talk about this healthc care product   company what happens if I mean they had many of  these customers that come to us after failing with   other companies you know if you launch it into a  30,000 people network will the scale really I mean   you're talking about Cloud engineering or Cloud  architecture because if it if it scales and if it   doesn't if it doesn't scale then your business  is again at risk so all these things uh we The   Architects would come and give that confidence  domain guy will talk about okay you don't have   to worry about telling each and everything we  understand the uh you know product road map we   understand the business critical elements that  are required so all these are required for us to   give that confidence to customers and today we are  seeing that you know um coming by more easily than   what it used be in the past so we got uh domain  teams so in Retail transportation Healthcare   uh you know and you otch is another one so we've  got uh five core domains where we are continuously   you know doing projects and if you look at  Transportation the biggest Transportation uh   Road Network the best managed Road transportation  is actually Transportation network is managed by   our asset uh management product that we built  which is getting replicated now so it was done   in Europe and then it is going to other European  countries it's going to Australia again customer   owns the IP but the see the ROI is important  since this product if implemented for a typical   Road Network you know like your National highways  it will probably save you billions of dollars of   Revenue let's say in a 10- year life cycle versus  not having that product you know so that's a kind   of impa why does the national highway Authority  need a software product for managing today yeah   I I can tell you the you know I can draw a  similarity with what is happening in India in   India how do you m a road you will have the most  powerful MLA will maintain the road in front of   his house right I mean he'll continuously taret  every year come what me because I'm the most   powerful but scientifically roads are to be built  let's say for 25 years or 60 years of warranty   you know it has to be built to that quality but  what happens is due to certain conditions maybe   because of weathering or Rain Road might break up  or overload of trucks could break the road faster   so you have to actually uh scan the road through  a road uh scanner using lar and deflectometers   and things like that and then once you scan it  you will probably figure out that this road is   just beginning to crack you know if you don't  if you don't fix it today it'll become a big   pothole and then your cost of fixing will be much  higher so uh generally around the world developed   Nations will always have this uh scanning Vehicles  which will run at the let's say 80 km/ hour 100 km   per hour and still get everything footage into a  uh good Google Map equalent they have much more   professional maps and it will show you red Amber  green uh kind of uh footprint on the map and if   you're at a red means you you are spend on the  fixing will be much higher Amber means if you   fix it now your cost will probably not be 1,000  crores but it could be let's say 500 crores so   that that is something that comes out of Road  Asset Management systems and we built similar   product for a company that is reselling this  product to multiple countries you know so so   that again is a big product with GIS underneath  you got a web application mobile application to go   and report portoles and things like that so it's a  big application we talking about 100 people having   built it over a two-year time frame so that's the  kind of product that we actually built and now   the thing is in a product engineering work we also  work with the customer to help them do bidding you   know like they'll go and let's say bid in let's  say Pacific Islands for a road asset system we are   the ones who actually go and show it on a road map  on a GIS Google Map equalent as to how their Road   network will look like you know giving in some  past data and you know so things like that so that   so these are very interesting very topof the Line  Products you know uh that we actually are building   for customers and you know employees really are  happy because they are working on a piece of GIS   on one side somebody else is working on a Android  M you know application to report Road problems   then you have a web application which will  give you analytics and statistics as to how uh   your road cost of Maintenance will look like you  know again accidents all these are captured it's   a it's a huge platform uh and the work that is an  exper very interesting because of the nature of uh   products and the technology that we use it's all  DX digital transformation kind of projects that   we do and nothing in the Legacy technology you  know you know you're talking about Cobalt based   applications still running in Bank of America  are you interested in working on a black and   white screen or are you interested in working on  something very exciting with social media integr   and all of that so I think that uh you know brings  in a lot of excitement in the team so that also   helps us bring down the attrition rates within the  company and they get to work on something exciting   they get a holistic view rather than working on  a small piece of screen for six months you know   you get bored of life and that's why uh sometimes  people leave the large logos large brands in it   companies in India and come and work with us I  mean we got people joining from which is U very   interesting for them you know coming in working on  right working on products is a lot more appealing   uh in your sales cycle so your sales cycle would  be something like this your uh Regional sales   associate will kind of open a door arrange for  a meeting then a business analyst who has the   expertise in that domain will give a presentation  to the client and try and understand what kind of   product they want to build uh yeah and uh after  that uh do you also like start preparing like a   business requirement document dou Etc or that  happens after the deal is confirmed yeah most   of the time this high level user requirements will  be user stories as we call it today in the scrum   world uh that comes in and then we'll probably  analyze and then you know draw parallels to   whatever we've done something in the past and then  go back to them with a proposal you know which   obviously will have a cost sometimes you won't get  all the requirements you know because customers   also wouldn't be able to spell it out but we go on  a you know high level high ballpark estimates and   say that we this is the kind of road map that you  should probably take in and U you know go along   with that and most of the time customers will do  workshops you know it's we call something called   The Discovery phase so in the typical product  life cycle we've got something called explore   and execute so these are the two phases explore  phase will probably have some uh MVP to show them   how a product should look you know recently  we won a project from one of the large uh you   know Financial Services customers I mean it was  purely on usability see uh for example how does   a product used there are so many if you look at  whatsapp simpl simplest to use right I mean there   are so many WhatsApp equalent that came in why is  WhatsApp more interesting because the usability   engineering that is done for a product for Mass  consumption is probably different from a typical   you know uh Dalal Street you know share trading  application because there it's it's a different   you're talking about limited users so you got to  think about usability itself you should think not   just about the usage itself but the culture of the  country where this is getting implemented you know   look at Europe they don't have this flashy colors  as you have in India so all of that matters so we   have to come out with all these elements that are  going into a typical product building exercise and   that they'll get it when they see the philosophy  that we kind of preach okay okay and uh in uh how   is the pricing decided is that decided upfront or  you tell them that in our estimate this is x man   hours and we charge y dollar per manh hour yeah  I mean that so the estimation generally happens   that way you know estimation is always uh dollar  and the effort that is required but it's generally   a guidance that we give but our bilding rates  are definitely higher than typical Services I   mean because for product engineering the kind  of salaries you go to pay is much higher the   processes are probably costlier we've been uh  you know mostly on a lot of the tools that are   required to run product process efficiently so  all that cost so we have I would say we should be   definitely 20 25% costlier than typical services  companies I think a Services Company would Bill   maybe what between about $5,000 per employee  per month something like that it could be I   mean there are services companies typical could be  let's say 20 $20 an hour kind of a billing right   okay um yeah it could be that that I mean smaller  companies would probably go down the path you know   because they they would use traines to kind of  run projects and so we we wouldn't be anywhere we   can't do that because see many of time customers  would also see what is the kind of caliber of your   architect you know because Architects are very  expensive you know somebody who can do a you know   AWS architect so data Architects you know and you  usability engineering guys all these guys are you   know Season guys who understand the culture the  philosophy of the target uh region and so on so   I mean obviously they understand that because I  mean you can actually get comparable rates to even   onsite you know some of the yeah not not that we  we will charge that what I'm saying is if you're   really product engineering you might also have  to have people on on site you know like we have   people in every region that we are operating not  in too many numbers but senior leadership teams   uh technical teams are also there that's that's  important for uh effective customer coordination   okay okay like the delivery teams are also on  site not just the sales teams yeah I mean we'll at   least have a skeletal delivery team so like this  um National highways project that we're talking   about we've been having on-site architect business  analyst and you know uh technical guys um business   analyst for the last three years I mean this  project has been running so we require to have   those kind of cost provisioned in okay fascinating  how do you uh build Talent like you know you you   need uh really self-driven intelligent people  especially for the analyst the business analyst   role because he is really holding it all together  right he he's like yeah so we we have get built no   we have experienced business analysts coming  from I mean carefully being selected from   companies from the domain like somebody working  let's say for retail or someone working in the   transportation space for quite some time kind  of coming with the right attitude with the right   temperament so we we have such guys in the team  we also hire from MBA institutes uh you know and   train them through the process you know because  for scaling once you have one product engineering   engagement definitely this will get replicated  because you know something that you do let's say   in a warehouse management you might require other  warehouse management projects so you need to have   people in the team in the mix coming in so a major  um part of the hiring happens also from campuses   like last year we we had about 250 odd Engineers  join from campuses and they get trained in various   batches so our product engineering philosophy that  the training that we do our own guys actually do   the training and uh they learn uh something  six months they learn in the classroom and   then another three months on OJT and typically at  least a year before they can get into any product   engineering engagement so that is how the fresh  and we have found that fresh guys who come with   fresh minds and newer ideas they're always better  than you know you know taking everybody from   laterals laterals are required for the experience  and expertise but getting this into the mix I mean   which is typically what everybody will do but uh  we look for the attitude and aptitude uh you know   in being able to learn multiple technology like  your full stack developers you talk about we also   have for products you require those kind of skills  so we have uh the mix that is coming in uh through   hiring from campuses and also from laterals so  we for their attitude so we don't do anything   unless somebody from the senior leadership looks  at a person who's coming into the organization   so we multiple interview and campus it's very  interesting we have got tests one round and then   logic test and then we have group discussions  and then interviews so that happens and then   sometimes psychometric tests also are done uh you  know to get the right Talent on board what is your   head count today today we are about 1,600 OD so  1,600 50 I think yeah I mean it keeps last year   last quarter I think we added I was looking at  the reports somewhere around 50 people was were   added so somewhere around 1,650 and we're looking  at we got something called the plan 3K uh which   was announced last year so 3 years 3,000 people  that's the kind of so we need to keep engaging   the uh product uh uh you know contracts as many  as possible replicating and you know the domain   stories and so that's how we looking at it and  scaling the sour well out of the 1600 how many   are in India so I would say um between us Japan  Australia and UK we would probably have about 65   70 odd people okay the rest are all in India so  key leadership is only there in in the majority   is still in India which I think is something  that we trying to change we want to actually   have more people on site because larger customers  like the tier one we got at least half a dozen or   more tier one engage customers you know all these  brands that you can look I'm for confidentiality   reason I cannot disclose some of the names but we  have got some of the topnotch automotive companies   you know insurance companies you know mining  companies all of them as a customers so many   of them demand on-site resources you know right  like the you know most sexiest brand you know   motorcycle brand they want uh people of both  offshore and in India you know so we've got   uh people being hired on site in the US now  and also scaling up teams in India so so when   a brand wants on site you send someone from  India or you hire fresh resources it's it's   difficult especially in the US it's difficult  to move people because of Visa restriction so   we hire them on site okay it's easier in the UK  but um Japan it's easy so we have we've got 35   Engineers learning Japanese in India we moving  them gradually so I think we've got a Japanese   team teacher sitting at in our Kerala office both  shifting between trandum and coin we also have an   office in Bangalore but majority of the size is in  Kerala so the Japanese teacher came from Japan you   know living in Kerala teaching our good Engineers  how to speak Japanese because Japanese they don't   understand English it's very difficult to  Converse in Japan in English so we have I   think 35 Plus already completed I think four uh  moved last month but we are moving more people to   some of the interesting brands in uh Japan are  also uh demanding people you know come on site so   we have that in fact the EV charging platform that  we did for the US customer we trying to replicate   in Japan so Japan has been a little late to uh  electrification so we are seeing such opportuni   so cross pollination of opportunities happen  you know when you do something in let's say   us it can get replicated in Japan us so that's  the interesting part of the about the product   engineering story you uh said you acquired a  company to enter Japan uh this was what like   a software or product engineering in Japan it was  it was not a product engineering company it was a   typical Staffing Company it was a very small 25  member team okay so one of the reasons is that   we had U uh the CTU again and he has got a few  people I think we got about 15 people who came   with him from his past life which was purely Japan  focused so Japan is interesting because of the   uh the quality expectations in Japan are very very  high so if you do something in Japan you can be   rest assured that you you know quality cycle in  the project will be very good so uh so the so he   was actually very keen but making an entry into  Japan is a humongous process so that's the reason   why we acquired this company which is like 20  years in Japan uh during covid they kind of went   down or they had a reduction in head count so they  were looking at support so we said we can actually   take those people and we have some they had some  customers already so use that customer uh you know   uh customer background to go and tell others look  we've got customer base we are a 20-year company   so we renamed it to experion and then uh that then  we did an inauguration last year uh which got some   attention of local Japanese people who came from  you know it associations and so on and we started   getting projects from good logos so those were  all tier three tier 2 Logos and we have now quite   a few good tier one logos again talking about the  product philosophy so that's uh that's how we made   this Japan entry uh last year it's almost a year  now fascinating what's your Revenue now how much   will you close this year Revenue I mean we for  technical Reasons I'm not supposed to say but we   are sub 50 I would say Okay amazing amazing uh and  this uh acquisition strategy have you used it in   other markets also or this has only been in Japan  so far yeah we recently uh also about 6 months   back we took over a small Australian Product  Company which is in the tier 2 tier three banking   space so what they do is they have U uh like the  unions like uh Credit Unions which are using uh   products to process loans process collection  services and also credit reporting so these um   few areas they had but what was interesting was  the the product that they had could be customized   to Green lending so that's quite interesting so  we took this company over and uh we have now a   product called glass so glass is green lending as  a service so that's again interesting so uh that   lending platform that we've uh we already had  is customized to uh you know look at the green   lending Norms here solar panels or windmills or  things like that project loans or even commercial   loans or

2025-01-26 07:00

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