Bespoke videogame controllers with Phoenix Perry – UAL Tech for All Conference

hello everybody i'm phoenix ferry i am the msc course leader at the creative computing institute at the university of arts london and i'm here today to talk to you not about our msc program which is amazing and outstanding and if you want to learn creative coding please come study with me it is a great program i'm so proud of it and yeah if you're interested you can find me at the cci feel free to reach out through through the website or our twitter but i'm here today to talk about my creative practice and i'm going to frame my work in the context of my ability which i was diagnosed with a disability originally it started in like 99 i got diagnosed with like nine different problems and eventually a doctor looked at me and put a systemic diagnosis together and i've kind of had to negotiate technology very differently than other people because my body is not going to work with most interfaces i managed to make it work by doing all kinds of interesting things like moving around a lot changing input devices but overall this whole kind of techno sphere has failed me as a user and it has failed me in ways that have cost me in my right arm i think it was 20 of my nerve endings uh the five years of my life away i'm pretty uh when it comes to thinking about these things i'm pretty dead set on providing solutions and alternatives to allow people like me to control computer systems in any way that they think should work for them and how they want to create and be why should some massive corporation like apple tell me how i should use my technology just not down with that so this is a little bit about my research and my research into games specifically in game controllers i build large beautiful playable worlds and tiny little playable interfaces and basically i started building interfaces so i could go back to playing games because i when the like console controller came out i couldn't hold the thing i tried i bought one i picked it up i tried to play splinter cell i was so excited and within five minutes my hands were just numb and i couldn't feel my fingers i was like well that was a lot of money so i had to really think about how i could make interfaces that would let me keep making and playing games with people who would be interested in playing with me or who also had abilities that were maybe outside or divergent from what like you know surveillance capitalism deemed our interfaces should look like all right with no further ado i'm going to talk a little bit about my phd research into this territory all right so great let's see whoops okay so i'm going to mention a tool that i've made at cci with rebecca fiebrink called interactiml i'll introduce it about halfway through the talk but it's a node-based unity asset empowering developers to make games and gestures um let's see if i can do this properly here we go hope the entire time my slides didn't have my name up well phoenix harry at phoenix fairy on twitter you can find me all right so i'm going to talk a little bit about interactimel and it is a note-based uni unity asset empowering developers to make gesture-based physical interactions with video games it's a lot to unpack and i hope that the intro i gave you about the work i do kind of tips you off that i think people should be able to make their own interfaces and developers should empower that so this is a tool which does that right so now we're going to move on in this talk i'm going to give a brief overview of postcognitivism which is really fancy way of saying western science has failed us perhaps maybe cartesian dualism isn't the only way of thinking and being in the world and maybe embodied computing and intersectional feminism might have something to offer i'm going to position the current middle models at play in game controller design and i mean that with the like traditional like you know corporate stuff that gets made and then i'm going to look at the alternative community that i've helped build called the alt control games community and i hope you'll be able to see some of the really cool emergent opportunities there and you'll be able to frame them as advances in user experience design then i'm going to do a quick overview of the target audience and the goals that interactamel has and introduce interactive l interactive metals and introduce interactive i'm not going to do a live demo today because doing a live demo this way would be extremely difficult but uh if you want to see a live demo of interactamel i wanted to put it out there that you can book me at calendarly.com phoenix perry and i will absolutely give you a live demo anytime you're interested i have office hours that are open thursday and saturday to general creators so feel free to find me there cool so to really understand video game controllers we need post-cognitivism i really never thought i'd say that but that's what doing a phd does so i'm really interested in body computing and in embodied cognition so it turns out that a lot of the ways that we actually make sense of the world are not in our mind and this is really counter to how western thought has told us the mind works right especially when we talk about ai you just imagine this like disembodied brain floating outside of the body in a vat somewhere super intelligence right well turns out that's not actually how intelligence works at all and one of the biggest failures of early art artificial intelligence was assuming that kind of position turns out that the body actually has a lot of cognition in it and our bodies do a lot of information processing before that thought like before that information even reaches our mind before that sensation or you know experience even becomes conscious so a really good example are frogs so frogs in their retina have these cells that are pre-dispossessed to see like dark objects that move in their field um and basically what that's for so when like flies and stuff come in their brain can like really quickly grab them that's why frag frags fraggles i would love that uh why frogs can actually grab flies with their tongue so fast because they don't ever think about it that that that cognition never even reaches their higher level states of like cognitive being it's all happening in the eyeball itself which is really cool so their sensing of the fly is their knowing of of the fly's existence which is pretty profound this kind of way of thinking works with humans too turns out we do a lot of cognition processing in our guts which i found a recent study on this that i thought was really fascinating and our bodies hold a lot of the same kind of knowledge fear is a really good example if we think we're being threatened we have a lot of responses that occur before our cognition even becomes aware of it and we found this out like late you know 1800s so this way of thinking is informed by phenomenology and phenomenology is a kind of philosophy that really contested mind-body dualism it said hey maybe the mind is not so separate from the world and it thinks of perception as being intelligence and in body cognition knowing is dynamic and subject to changes in the environment it's not something that you just like it's not declarative knowledge it's not something you just hold on to because you read in a book you learn by being in the world you learn by your senses understanding the world cognition extends throughout the body and it's not limited to the mind and this is some work done by lake hoffman johnson in 1999. inactive cognition is kind of a development of embodied computing and then uh radical let's see if i can remember this radical embodied cognition is another thing that has came out i was right when i finished my masters but it's like a further take on that even so inactive cognition really it borrows a lot from buddhism which they've revised the edition of the first edition of their book varla thompson and roche to really recognize the contribution of buddhism in a in a way that i think is more appropriate but it emphasizes the iterative temporally extended and dynamic quality of embodied and situated cognition so that's a whole lot of fancy words saying it really emphasizes the bodied experience and how it's dynamic and it's situated in our cognition there's a tight integration between the person and their environment this is called structural coupling in this theory it's not possible to separate sensing and perceiving in the sensory motor loop are sensing and perceiving are the same thing they're connected and like i said var the borrowed the buddhist phrase laying down the path in walking to capture the quality of the inactive approach and if you've ever meditated or you've ever spent time in a buddhist monastery you'll know that you can't just tell somebody about the experiences you have when you're meditating they are no they are procedural knowledge they're gained through practice distributed cognition kind of takes this a step further and it looks at how there's some amazing books on it cognition in the wild is one if you're interested in digging a bit deeper but turns out our cognition is super distributed through our tools and our environment sailors on a ship do this in amazing ways their cognition is split throughout the ship and the different crewmates but a pragmatic action is action that changes the world so let's be basic and go over some of the basic things an epistemic action which i really care about here is action that changes the nature of our mental tasks this is going to come up again in the next frame in like how game controllers work in our minds so been building up to how we think when we use game controllers so a really good example of this is pen and paper if you do long division we actually or long multiplication we offload some of the cognition to like the paper right to the page and if you ask someone to do long division without writing that stuff down it is so much harder but if you give them a pen and paper they can you know do it the way that you learned in school and that that process is actually part of the cognitive process and chris and maglio have this amazing paper on distinguishing epistemic from pragmatic action it came out in 1994 and i adore it and the reason i adore it is it uses video games to validate the theories it presents so they did a scientific study with tetris and what they did is they gave one group of people tetris where you could rotate the pieces with the controller just like tetris that you played your whole life and the other group of people they took the ability to rotate the pieces away from them and guess what the people who didn't have the ability to rotate the pieces could barely solve the puzzle so it turned out the ability the controller gave people to rotate the pieces was part of the cognitive process of playing tetris and part of its success so i think that that's like a pretty clear indicator that epistemic action might have a huge impact in user experience design and that some of the cognition that we're kind of using when we work with these interfaces is actually happening on the device itself on the object you're interacting with the controller and its affordances in the user experience design alter players cognitive processes during gameplay they alter them they're not just some sort of like you know brain doing problem solving using tool it is actually this integrated approach and material engagement theory takes this a step further if you're looking for something to like take this and understand how it applies to human history and anthropology so controllers are more than tools that let us play games they're part of the sensory experience shaping players very cognition so here's some of the control schemes that we're using right now in games controllers so abstract controllers i've kind of named them that because they don't really have a name i thought they were called abstract controllers turns out i made it up totally made that up can't find it anywhere but i like this term abstract because they're not actually connected to anything you have to learn them so wasd on a keyboard if you've ever played a computer game w-a-s-d w s and a and d are up and down and left left and right but you wouldn't know that unless someone told you and you have to learn it right uh some other examples of abstract controllers or knobs you don't know what that knob does until you see how the game reacts and you have to kind of form a mapping between how you understand the knob is moving and what it's doing in the game joysticks are very similar and buttons one of the things that i think is really interesting that i've noticed in my research is that joysticks or the d-pad or the console controllers actually takes cartesian like mapping practices and applies it to the controller with the adoption of basically a compass rose right on the device itself so it infers this like out of body top-down approach to spatial awareness which is something i'm looking into presently so in studies abstract controllers actually do a better job and outperform in body controllers on certain tasks largely shooting games and other games which have been specifically evolved alongside the history of abstract controller and console controller development which tells me something really powerful is going on in how the coupling between the game and the controller is occurring so this design pattern really originally shows up in 1958 with our friendly handy dandy joystick so natural controllers these are controllers that that borrow from our appropriate exception of lived experience in the world so they just take that mapping we know like from riding a bike or driving a car and slap it directly on the interface grand track is the first video game to ever do this uh atari just literally took a like a car gas pedal and a car steering wheel and a shift slapped it on an arcade controller and people knew how to drive the car because they knew how to or to drive the in-game car because they know how to drive a car right so it's like a to b and really a lot of other things that you've seen in games do this guitar hero shape of a guitar light guns bam bam bam you know deck hunt drum pads all these things come from direct natural mappings and natural controllers are something that is fair they're fairly well documented and established in user experience design and they are very easy to understand they they require almost no onboarding if a person has that cultural awareness so they're still tied to the cultural awareness of whoever is situated in whatever culture you just have to unpack that but if it's somebody from the exact same kind of western culture that you're from or you know not kind of pointing to a description discrepancy here in the term natural and i hope you're picking up on that um but basically these were created in 1972 as and 19 sorry 1970.

yes right geez seems so old 1972 to 1974 depending on whether or not you account you count for uh the first one that which atari made which shall remain nameless but i will hint out it is the first maze game the interface is unspeakably sexist so we're moving on so embodied controllers um these are controllers that use the body and again atari really innovated on this uh atari i mean they blew my mind when you go and look at all the crazy user experience innovation that was happening at atari early on this was a mind controller and they were describing it you can't really read it very well and kind of read it on my slides i apologize for that but they were advertising in some of their designs as like ways that disabled players could play and it uses basic muscle tracking across the head very few of these ever went into production but other systems have gone on to kind of pioneer in the same space the muse is a headset that's very similar actually way more of hands but it's picking up on a similar design and a similar kind of call to action that the brain should be able to control the interface you also see it in star wars which is something i picked up recently when i re-watched star wars there's a brain control device in the reboot of star wars you see it with the connect the wiimote the ps move the oculus rift and the htc vive all these game systems have embodied controllers so these controllers are not physically diegetic and what i mean by that is none of the game's story or games narrative content is getting played out on the controller the plastic itself is super ambiguous you can play any game with them they are just sort of you know generic so this original one 1989 and this this kind of stuff is really tied to the hardware industry and there is a lot of cantankerous hacking going on because these capitalistic companies lock this hardware down and people like me just don't have access to it so i was a big part of the open connect community to try and bring hacking and machine learning to the connect really early on because i needed that interface and microsoft you know thankfully left a bug that they now say is intentional after it got hacked you know inside and out uh but also sony's really bad for closing stuff up and people have to like the the move literally someone did their master's degree to reverse engineer so embody controllers are not going away and we really need better interaction design with them like the interaction design from body controllers is so pretty poor the vive has the best i've seen um some of the vive and body controls are actually getting pretty intuitive rec room has a really nice watch and backpack interface so they're using metaphors in the game and they're that's a pretty advanced step in the right direction but we need more of that kind of stuff when vr designers are thinking about how to build these embodied experiences in vr space so i think hci has a whole host of what i like to call hot probs and many of them in my opinion stem from like the history of war and surveillance capitalism which runs and you know runs parallel the history of hci design and a lot of times what gets uh invented gets kind of pushed forward by like military industrial complex by the military industrial complex and the aims they have for producing interfaces for you know joystick literally flying warplanes and other things like radar and positioning like flying drones a lot of things things are getting like really pioneered within like military industrial complex situations that i find really uncomfortable video games has a long history of working with the us military to produce basically propaganda um and human-centered design often makes assumptions about mass consumption and that's that's another big problem i have with it other than the fact that it's really tightly coupled the history of war it is very tightly coupled to the history of large scale sales not scales you know on a scale that like i could use or somebody else who might have a problem could use but like thousands and thousands and millions and millions of users so that is a goal that's a goal of selling units universal design needs to go in my opinion and i'm going to say universal design did a lot of things right but has become synonymous with user experience design over the last several years and a lot of i think it's lost a lot of its way so it was originally thought of as a way to kind of change the architectural built environment to be accessible for the largest number of people and before we completely get rid of user experience design i'm just going to say it hasn't even been implemented in large parts of the uk like huge parts of the uk are still completely inaccessible to people in wheelchairs or people who need any sort of assistive walking devices that just no nobody can get up these tiny staircases and stuff so basically the big problem of universal design the biggest one is it assumes that design one design can ever work for all disabilities and that's just really not the case like disability is not just like a a one and done kind of situation disabilities are huge they run the gamut they can include physical disabilities mental disabilities cognitive disabilities and and you know dropping a curb while fantastic and really needed is not the end of things like we need to actually really rethink what access means um in a design space so i'm really interested in looking at game controllers as in a way to explore kind of intersectional feminist practices handcrafting and techno science as is permit proposed by amy uh hammery they're amazing and i really uh love their papers i've been reading the crypt technoscience manifestos recently and they have been fantastic and what they're proposing is that disability is not something that should be engineered out of culture it should not be optimized away but rather we should think about how to integrate what it brings to culture in new and valued ways design justice is another approach that is worth looking at it is it rose out of this like an intersectional feminist approach that takes a lot from crenshaw's work kimberly crenshaw stuff and it really looks at how you would think about design in terms of the matrix of domination which is a system of looking at different impacts of like intersectional overlaying social issues on top of each other so for example like if you happen to be poor you happen to be you know non-western or you know from a culture that doesn't embrace like western design principles or you happen to be disabled or like you know it's like all these different things you're gonna hit like race is a huge one it's gonna like black women and white women are gonna experience the world radically differently because of all of these different intersectional problems that are not just tied to one thing right they're tied to like multiple layers of culture so that's what design justice really kind of says it really wants people to look at the intersectional way of thinking about design that really takes a much broader lens and i i think that design justice there are a lot of things about the allied media conference work on design justice that are very connected to my own practice and were you know arising organically within my practice around the same time this theory was about evolving and my guess is that i am not alone and a lot of women have been using and you know a lot of people in general have been using ways to think about craft and making and the kind of craft maker culture that has been unfolding as an opportunity to really rethink how designs get shaped um so all control games have been answering this call in my opinion in the video game space so what is all control so originally i started a game jam with christopher muriel at nyu in 2012 and i started this game jam with chris because both he and i were really interested in looking at ways that embodied computing could work in video games we weren't happy with the solutions we were seeing and we thought it would be really great to get a bunch of students together to hack on experiences and some amazing like distributed interfaces uh got produced it was sponsored by adafruit make magazine and the first judges were katherine izbuster and kahuabe and it ran in 2013. some russian games designers reached out to me and chris and they asked if they could throw one and take the name or we said sure why not they did another one in 2014 2015 and then 2017 they've been running them quite regularly which is fantastic within months the name had spread the copenhagen uh kind of games creators after the russian game jam and they ended up doing all control game jams there and gdc brought it into the exhibition hall in 2014 when they incorporated it into the igf as an award category in 2017 sorry i said that a little bit weird gdc did an alt control exhibition in 2014 in the main exhibition hall and the game developers conference if you've never been is one of the largest most important games events that happens worldwide is where xbox and playstation everybody else unveils those brand new shiny consoles and igf is the independent games festival it runs kind of inside of ig inside gdc kind of right before it and they integrated the alt control award in 2017 as part of the igf which is really cool uh it becomes associated with all as an alternative and that has all the connotations that alternative has always had in indie culture and which is no accident because i originally when i was making it i was thinking of alt.subgroup inside usenet settings and i thought that that was really cool for me was one of the inspirations for the uh the name i wanted to call it alt something and chris came up with the control part and uh that was that's how that got born so there is also a parallel arcade experience happening on right now which deserves separate study and some of what i'm going to say is going to apply to that some of it is not but that is an amazing kind of community and there's a lot of crossover so here are some of the lovely flyers this was the original game jam that ran at nyu polygamy innovation lab and this is the russian uh flyer from 2017 i found i thought was really great because i had a hat glove controller a website where you can see games that have come out over the last several years in this kind of category it's shake that button which i adore so i've been working for like a rough definition of what i think all control games are i have a few thoughts on this um so while i helped spark a genre its rapid growth was more than i could have ever hoped for or even thought would happen and it's produced a whole host of successful games and what i've noticed by looking at all of these games and looking at how they work um i believe an alt control game is a game where the mechanics are embedded in the controller itself so that means that like most all can control games cannot be played on a generic controller the mechanic is actually in the interface so the game would be very different if you try to play it on a standard joypad if it was even remotely possible the mechanic is kind of you can think of it as the verb in a game and it involves the controller so if you think about that like if the verb is touching the game's controller is going to be touch is going to you know pick up and be part of and encourage and have the story of that touch mechanic on the interface itself so it's impossible to abstract the gameplay away from the controller they're they're tightly coupled the procedural rhetoric is extended into the controller and what do i mean by procedural rhetoric i mean the system itself is the message and it is in the controller so the game is telling its story through the controller in art games like the three in question so and the three in question in this quote from ian begos i think are marriage passage and i'm gonna space on the third one but um a proceed procedural rhetoric does not argue a position as rather it characterizes an idea and that's how ian begos defines procedural games and that's what i think these controllers are doing they're characterizing ideas on the control space themselves okay so here's a couple of examples of these kinds of games this is pain station which is as far as i can tell the very first one and all of these games arose out of art schools and the intersection of open source hardware like the arduino and processing director in some cases c plus the basic stamp controller these interfaces which had open source hardware and software really empowered these kinds of interfaces to come to fruition because the first time people control the software and the hardware and pain station is a really good example of that um the game itself looks like pong but when you miss the game punishes you by using pain as kind of a a penalty mechanic uh so the the controller heats up and the game actually has nothing to do with pawn and everything to do with who can actually take the most pain in the game there's even a little whip that comes out starts slapping you it's kind of an amazing game um and it's a play on playstation and how painful some of those controllers have been to hold so i kind of love that hit me by cajo abe rosetta parsons it is a two hacked doorbell controllers in these boxes on construction hats and the goal is to hit the other person on the head first and then it takes a picture of the person you're hitting uh hold on let me make sure this makes sense it takes a picture of the face of the person doing the hitting from the perspective of the person being hit and then it puts that on the wall later additions then tweeted it and i just thought that was such a wonderful painstake uh hit me is just this wonderful like social critique around violence and um i love this game it's also really fun to play maddie bryce is another creator who's made some amazing alt control games touch maddie and play this game alongside maddie as the interface is very embodied in quite a real physical sense you're navigating around this little like maze-like world playing as muddy this movement is identifying some very interesting opportunities for user experience design in conjunction with game design however what they're not doing is making mass control devices they're making bespoke craft handmade objects that are there as like conversation starters or community engagement within a community of practice and these games are often situated with inside art galleries and games conferences and they're more almost as provocation as idea starter as comments critique and i think they're very valuable in terms of what they're offering they're extremely well received within the games community itself and i find that really encouraging so it's a collision with crafting and maker culture and it's no accident chris and i both were really associated chris is now a core member of nyc resistor in new york city and he and i both were like hacking and making nonstop and we were not alone because we were making games and hacking controllers but apparently by the success of this community nearly instantly growing out from like a weird game jam to like a global phenomenon uh we were not alone so designers need a better tool to make game interactions with right they need to have better ways to make expressive player customization right they need to really think about how to make games more flipping awesome because standard controllers now look and feel pretty boring what if users could completely define their own interfaces based on their abilities this is what the tool that rebecca and i've been working on called interactimel does so interactiml is this really cool node-based interface inside unity and i am now going to just show you a youtube video explaining it because i think it makes more sense so i made it node-based because i really wanted to make it accessible to the largest number of people and they didn't want to have to make you program machine learning algorithms to be able to train and use interact-ml in a running playing game so hold on now i'm going to show you a lovely youtube video let's see how this goes okay oh no oh no oh no okay let's see aha i have it all right oh oh dear please excuse me i am trying to switch the video here in powerpoint all right great here we go [Music] interactomel is a node-based visual scripting tool for designing movement interaction in unity perform your movement interactions to train interactamil's machine learning system then instantly use your movement designs to trigger events in your environment [Music] a tool specifically designed for artists dance practitioners as well as game developers the process is quick and easy minimal programming experience required use any movement input including virtual reality controllers hand tracking with the leap motion controller face tracking with ar foundation body tracking with the kinect or motion capture system or any movement center in unity [Music] for more information on our upcoming opportunities including artist residencies workshops game jams and hackathons join our mailing list at [Music] interactivemail.com

great and i hope from that you realize that interact model is a large group of people now at this point uh not just me it involves a whole host of other researchers which is always what someone working on software wants they want their tool to grow into a community which it now has and uh it's bigger than me and rebecca now it involves so many wonderful and amazing people that you can read about on the interact mail shout out to clarisse who was in that video and made it uh she's been doing english the heavy lifting design um cool awesome so moving along i'm gonna now talk about my game bop party and just show you some of my own work uh that i've made bop party is a game that i really wanted to make to explore intimacy and holding hands with strangers in public and as much as it has been a provocation uh for others it's really changed my life and the experience of touching 3 000 strangers in one year will shift how you experience reality that would be the way i'd put it so a little bit about bob party it started off as a analog synthesizer and step sequencer that multiple people could play and i call this one baby bot and it involves evolve to this [Music] box and it's evolved even beyond this now that this is video explains the mechanic really well which is the touch mechanic yeah if you try and press buttons you'll hear it'll cue you to interact so try and press a button [Music] and then if you two connect you'll get a sound [Music] so then [Music] and then that one i think is touch me [Music] so then if you come in you'll get a third sound that's how it works so that's the basics of bot party it evolved to be uh have multiple modes one of them where you have to touch certain people at certain times and it gets faster and faster it gets really manic the controllers evolved to be see-through uh now they have vibration in them which is some feedback i got from a blind player and they're really lovely this is kind of what they look like now um cool so you can play it in huge groups of people like huge massive groups of people can play it so i think i have a video of that here so that's kind of what it looks like when big groups of people play it here it was at res which is a game conference that happens here in london and you'll see that groups of three to five generally play it and they get very excited when they work out how it works [Music] cool so that's bob party uh this is a project i made at cci with the msc students last year uh exactly this time last year called forest daydream i made it in conjunction with a whole bunch of other artists robin vanguard who made line wobbler uh fedex foshay matt jarvis and of course the remarkable and amazing ben kelly who did the sound in conjunction with a whompy indigenous folks in the amazon recording the sound from their natural environment and this video game world brought into physical space really is a provocation to think about the collision of virtual and physical spaces and in so many ways uh kind of foretold i feel like what was coming with our our lives in in the covid world where our our physical world be taken away and we were left with just a virtual representation of it and the sounds are from the um this community in the rainforest and they really give you a sense of an environment and a place and this game is just really a delight to play it's got different experiences in it different mini games that when you unlock you can change the lighting you change the sound i put in a lot of objects i think it's really important to have objects that are non-digital environments i put in some of these cushions to really encourage people to play on the floor and that that definitely happened there was a whole bunch of bouncing and playing on the floor um i don't think i included a video for throne which is unfortunate but my next work is to really clarify the what i mean when i'm talking about bespoke controllers and craft i think that a lot of these interfaces are specifically crafted and i don't think that i ever want the mass produced i want them to remain part of my artistic practice and i want them to remain part of the dialogue of craft and i really feel this kind of approaching interface design from the perspective of a kind of intersectional feminist perspective where someone who's been working with disability is attempting to make games for a community they're helping to create as a experience to play with others i really believe that falls within feminist practice and i want to clarify that research a bit more my phd and i really think it's time for a universal design critique i'm really upset that it took microsoft i think i remember counting it was 17 years from the original bringing out of the xbox either 14 or 17 the xbox controller to launch an accessibility controller and this is really that it burns me up inside when people bring out assistive technologies and then they charge more for them which is what xbox did and you can't just buy a version of the xbox with the assistive controller no no no you could pay an extra hundred bucks because capitalism miles like many of people who have disabilities right because they're loaded um lots of feels there so anyway that is my work and that is kind of what i'm thinking about where my head is out and i hope you took my lovely uh thoughts that are my phd research and uh it wasn't too painful and it was clear and if you have any questions please let me know and i will absolutely answer them um twitter phoenix fairy i'm also phoenix.harriet uh arts.ac.uk and that's it thanks for coming thanks for listening and i really appreciate your time bye you

2021-02-11 09:49

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