auDA webinar: 2024 Technology Policy Forecast - Key trends to watch

well welcome everyone and uh thank you for joining us for our first webinar for the year well we'll uh discuss what's on the tech policy agenda for 2024 um I'm Michael Lewis 's industry relations manager um and I'd like to start by acknowledging the traditional custodi of the land on which I'm coming to you from today the original home of the Wy peoples the cooler Nation I'd like to pay my respect to elders part and present um we also acknowledg that average all tourist Island peoples were the first peoples to innovate and use technology on this land and do over many Millennia and knowledge upon which we continue to build today um please note the session is been recorded well we finished 2023 with the hype around generative AI continuing to build and different Industries trying to find ways to integrate into their platforms and different governments try to find uh ways to regulate it um and this year's already started off with big smartphone Brands trying to uh work the generative AI into their latest products uh last year the uh Australian government also released its long awaited cyber security strategy in accompanying integration plan out of was pleased to see some strong language around the importance of multi-stakeholder Engagement in that strategy uh in fact the government noted the success criteria uh one of one of the success criteria would be that the is a open free secur and interoperable with responsible and accountable multi-stakeholder management and governance uh this year um could take us many ways um some particular major events that could reshape the global internet governance landscape with discussions on the way for a global digital compact at the UN submit for the future and the net mundl plus 10 event plus 10 meeting in in Brazil and and to give us their thoughts on uh what policy makers will be debating and hopefully um and hopefully those policy makers including the rest of us in their discussion and consultation we're joined by three Tech experts um Simon bush is the CEO of the Australian information industry Association uh Simon represents Australia Tech sector to government industry and media uh he's also been appointed to numerous government advisory committees covering digital Health procurement and skills and cyber security we're also joined by Dr Kate B currently a fellow at the uh UTS human technology Institute where her work focuses on AI regulation and facial recognition technology uh Kate is currently on sabatical from her role as a consumer data Advocate at Choice Australia's largest consumer organization in which she leads advocacy on data Miss use privacy and reform reform and AI regulation and Frank zner who is a thought leader in the adop of Internet of Things he's also the founding CEO of The Internet of Things Alliance of Australia the pig body that drives collaboration across industry research government and Community to improve Australia's competitiveness and the lives of Australians uh Frank is also a board member uh of the New South Wales smart sensing Network um as always throughout these uh events we welcome your questions so please feel free to put them into the uh Zoom Q&A Tab and um we'll I I'll fire them at our panelists as we go um but uh to kick things off um Kate thank you for joining us um what were your thoughts on 2023 and uh what do you think's next for 2024 yeah thanks for um that question Michael and lovely to be here with all of my esteemed colleagues and certainly lot to talk about in 20123 um you know I think my general take on what we saw last year is um a lot of you know reports that were long awaited and government responses that were long awaited um have arrived uh finally uh in particular the Privacy Act uh response uh which was many years in the making that was a review that was started by the previous government um we finally saw the the final report and then initially uh you know eight or nine months later the government's response to that um we saw as you mentioned the cyber security strategy and the action plan um and we also saw um a lot of work happening on digital ID um we saw very late last year the introduction of the and the passing of the IVs bill with some privacy amendments um we've also seen changes on in introduced for the Online safety act um basic Online safety expectations um so what you can kind of see is there seems to be a lot of things a lot of what I'd say Activity um but what I haven't seen as much of is as much what I'd say is action so we've had a lot of talking a lot of reports a lot of strategies a lot of action plans um but we've had actually very little legislation hit the table and and part of that's probably um the stage of government where we've at we've had a change of government um and they've taken a while to kind of get get going in terms of uh putting their their place forward but for consumers what it's actually meant is the landscape hasn't actually changed all that much in terms of how policies affecting their everyday and their digital lives but that said the external environment as you mentioned as you said has is kind of massively shifted suddenly getting all of this hype you know trying to talk to Consumers even you know one to two years ago about AI they just weren't interested in it they didn't understand how it affected their lives now they're very concerned about it um you know some of the latest research is showing that Australians are some of the most skeptical in the world of how the benefits of AI might have um you know actually be real and whether or not those harms are going to outweigh those benefits um and we're also seeing a lot of concern from consumers about data breaches really ever since the optis and Med bank at the end of towards 2022 that concern has continued to build um and we've also seen a huge huge increase in money loss to scams and that's something that more and more everyday people are being affected by so kind of the story I think is we've seen if anyone who's working in the tech policy space um is aware that there's a lot of announcements and there's a lot of responses but I think consumers are really kind of still wondering why are all of these things still happening um and when is the government going to act to do something about it so my my kind of key prediction and perhaps it's more of a wish um is that we um see some of these things actually translate into bills that that pass Parliament and actually then become implemented and actually start improving some of those issues of concern for consumers it's interesting on on that consumer level and and AI awareness that um out did some research then end of last year our third digital lives um report that so found quite high level of awareness for um for these Technologies of 63% amongst consumers about 80% amongst small business but very low level of confidence in explaining those Technologies um uh to others I think it was about 6% for consumers and 12% for small businesses so um what do you think there is to be done around an education piece for that yeah yeah I mean I think that kind of reflects um again what we've also been hearing the consumers are pretty concerned about this I think what we need to see here is uh Stronger Direction and certainty and I think this is the case for businesses as well at the moment there's still a bit of an open question on where a lot of this regulation is going to land and what it's actually going to mean for people I mean I think realistically um until we know what the the guard rails are going to be do we know what the rules and regulations are going to be the education bit almost needs to come after do we have that level of certainty I mean I certainly think there's some general awareness raising that can be done for people about AI but I think now that there's a general interest the public and consumers will start engaging in those issues more broadly but I think that level of trust is not going to go up until we see that level of of certainty and Direction and really having some CL clear guard rails um that make it clear for consumers what those rules are so that they can trust organizations and businesses use of AI um and also data um and that's where that cyber security and privacy Pace also comes to play right did you have a any any thoughts on what's uh what's for the year ahead following from Kate uh yeah yeah look um know Kate um I did a pretty good review of what's some of the things that's coming down the pike for consumers um I I just want to go out a little bit and look at other externalities that are are really um changing and Shifting the need for um digital and particular digital source and precision and Timeless of data um and that's and that's um uh I I see that is a major shift for the tech industry that's that's continuing and it's uh and and it's being driven by new things and the new thing the really big new thing is the whole shift to um government um adopting uh climate related Financial disclosure and now doing um um consultations on sustainability Finance um there's a whole lot of work um that's and and um uh interactions with Banking and um Insurance sectors which evidently require way better data to actually drive our low carbon economy you can't do it on generalizations and and um and very rubbery and rough AI on on on on not very granular data so that for me the their need is way bigger in that area and indeed if we want to go to a circular economy it needs we need even more you know we need it we need consumption not just production data um and and not manually connected but digitally collected so there's a huge shift of requiring a lot more data about we're doing and that's a sort of the interesting Counterpoint that hasn't yet penetrated to Consumers yet we're going to be clicking a lot more um and so the um so one side we need more data to actually run a new economy that we're going to be developing over the next 10 20 30 years um and we're going to need to be a lot safer about how we use it so those are the sort of parallel um macro factors that I see um I just want to make a couple of interesting comments or interesting comments some comments interesting or not um on um uh on the AI side of it a little bit and on the on the um on the data breaches um uh I'm getting the feeling and I'm and I think it's I'm I'm pleased with the shift myself that the conversation is becoming way more around transparency um and fairness which is what people really care about um you can discriminate against cohorts of people but discriminate against individual is another thing and that's that is that's important and understanding that um I reckon is is part of the key uh on in in terms of data breaches I reckon it's a bit overblown I mean I think there are big massive data breaches but a lot has happened in the tech industry um um and in businesses for multiactor authentication and Etc so the actual impact of many of these things is lessening at a bit of a rate so I I think I think we're overrating in my mind um the Privacy issue and underrating the transparency and trust issue about how data is actually being used um that's more worried about a robo de than than than than than my details which frankly are everywhere anyway um being used on in on Services where I already have multiactor Authentication so I think there's a there's a whole lot of other education to happen um uh also what we've seen is um uh um we had the legislation and the and uh of of the security for critical infrastructure thing happened to years ago and now last year we had the implementation so this there's an action side on the business side where where something like almost 200 um uh industries of critical infrastructure including water authorities and energy companies now have to have risk management plans and now they're introducing um uh actions and and and plans for how they mitigate and and um and and that their staff and their and their technology Etc so that's quite a big shift in Industry around their responsibilities for security which is good to hear that's continuing on and that's also the next stage of that's now being discussed within the um the cyber security strategy as well as what's happening for consumers um that's probably enough at that right now Simon do you have anything to add with your you're often in and out of various Suites in in Parliament House talking to MPS and and ministers um what what what do you think you're going to be knocking on their doors about this year well as as Kate sort of mentioned um with some of these strategies um related to the IT industry been going on for some time um Quantum robotics cyber digital and data strategies AI regulation Privacy Act 30 my go review migration and skills there's been a pleth right there hasn't been a we haven't been hasn't been boring in terms of trying to put in government submissions and influence and shape these things but the concern that that I have um and they've expressed this in uh in a number of different forums recently is the is in Australia we're really really slow between understanding that something's happening in real let's say I'll pick the example of AI because everyone's talking about that and it is real and it is is uh going to have a major impact in society and our economy the government strategy and action plan was in 2020 there was funding in 21 we had a change in government we're now in 2024 there's still no money that has reached industry to support commercialization now that's too slow for us to be competitive and to respond to these Global Trends um and it's no surprise then that Australia ranked second last in the league tables when it comes to AI adoption by smes across our e which make up 8 90% of our economy right so it's great that Minister hich announced the AI doop Center programs which is trying to focus on that $7 million great um but other countries uh our International competitors and trading partners are spending $500 million half a billion plus so you know we are hopeful that there will be um additional funding in the May budget so that's I think something to look out for the regulation side of it is really important as well to get get the guard rails and get that consumer confidence that Frank and Kate spoke to we're supportive of that um and that has been a well-considered and thoughtful process the Privacy Act I agree with Kate we've been critical this taken years it's just Madness um to update the Privacy Act it's pleasing that it deals with things like Ai and ADM automatic decision- making and there'll be TR that transparency piece in relation to decisions that are made by Banks and other uh entities in relation to using AI to determine whether you're eligible for something or not the are things to get right and government needs to get its own house in order in relation to adoption of these tools um you know through direct uh private sort of discussions and lobbying you know the government has set up a task force and need to De bound task force to set up an AI task force around adoption and use of AI Robo wasn't technically AI but you can see what can what can happen if things go wrong if there is some good governance controls and processes so these are really really important things around trust um of these techn ologies and tools AI in particular uh we know um and the other thing we need to do as as an industry is tie these Technologies to the productivity agenda of the government you know treasury is not going to fund these things for Department of Industry um and believe in them if it doesn't tie back to the productivity agenda and the economy um and there's enough data reports out there there's so many use cases around Ai Ai and generative AI large language it's not another blockchain um where there's a massive Hye curve and going on what are the use cases that they're minimal and narrow um I still think blockchain's got a way to go but um in in terms of it's got got utility but AI is different um productivity commission recognizes that so um I could talk at length about what needs to happen um and happy to do that um but we know just to finish on this point because a bit of a sneak peek we've got an we're releasing a tech index um Australia's first ever Tech procurement index index on Monday um and we have data from C and people of peu Technology across the economy for the F I've never seen this feedback ever and it's in our report that they are concerned around government policy in relation to and it's probably mostly around cyber and Ai and the regulation that's that's now coming in on on um in industry and across the economy whereas it hasn't happened before and they are not sure sure where government is going and we know that there's further work laws and regulations that are going to be coming into Parliament this year on both Ai and both cyber security there'll be two pieces of legislation on cyber security this year um we've heard there will be in the spring setings and in the Autumn setings um that it's going to put increased onuses and responsibilities in relation to cyber breaches as a result of many banking office last year so there's a lot lot there to unpack but I just want want to give that overview um that we need to do better we need to accelerate um decision- making of government and the funding um and we need to have well targeted well thought through regulation um which the government on the whole is doing um but noting that there is an impact on on regulation across the economy where it's not well considered um and thought through so I'll pause there thanks s and I sort of caused me think what uh what more you think government needs to do in these areas considering particularly that it feels like last year we're only just wrapping up inquiries into big Tech inquiries into social media there's always that underlying current of of what what are the algorithms doing on on these um big Tech platforms um and it seems like we've just launched right into another one with a a fair bit of before even sort of finishing up this last batch so how do you you think government needs to um to reig the way they do things and and how do you think they should go about it yeah I mean absolutely I think there needs to be better coordination um technology doesn't sit neatly in one portfolio right it sits across the whole economy sits across all the portfolios so the bit of left hand right hand we've called for better Tech policy coordination um and creating some sort of central government entity doesn't have to be a whole body with boards and things like that government doesn't like that but there needs to be a better way and we hope that the the announcement of the Cyber policy Coordinator would lead to better coordination um as a result of a cyber breach by the different arms of government that keep asking you know we got feedback from our member UHA in relation to a large breach they were inundated many months later by request from five six seven government departments for the same data um and we thought the Coordinator would result in a better coordinated approach by government sadly we're told by the coordinator who's who's not there a new one's been announced yesterday um but that's not going to happen so it's a coordinator in name only um with no power um and is a uniform that's going to stand up in front of press conferences after a break right that's that's a cynical side of me um but I think um that that's not um an unshared view across across our membership right so I think we government needs needs to do better digital identity is a really interesting one right there's legislation um for a committee at the moment um both sides of politics support it let's just get on with it right um there's there's some no-brainers out there that just are on the slowburn um and and again in that digital identity legislation it's going to unlock a bunch of citizen benefits um it's going to unleash a lot of benefits for the economy um but it's again it's deprioritized um the Finance Minister is a very busy person it sits in her portfolio for whatever reason um and um she's supporting it but there's a three-stage process and it's going to take years for it to be fully implemented across the economy once the legislation gets approved so yeah there's a sense of I think Government Can you know can prioritize and focus on some of these things a bit more yeah I'd like to pick up if I may on on one point that um Simon raised and that's on adoption um and this has been a bug bear of M you know for years actually and the governments are generally speaking are poing at dealing with adoption they they they pour they pour some but not enough money into invention um um and they do work on on legislation and rules which is what which is fair enough it's right smack bang in the middle but they find adoption really not sort of R responsibility Market will somehow work it out they are a third of the market they are also part of enabling the market to work because they need to enable you know the digital infrastructure the telecoms to support digitalization all that has to be put into place that all supports one another and we have to have a trust in community so that adoption isn't prevented by people being too scared and being and so and I think that that's that's a necessarily collaborative role it's not government telling people you shall adopt that won't work but working with industry and everyone else about what's good and how you're doing it and then demonstrating and doing it themselves and there I say it buying Australian is part of that magic now it's not that magical because most Asian countries are doing it um you know it's not it's so me for me that's probably um one of the big missing elements is government actually grappling with the adoption problem uh and we don't rank where we ought to in adoption we just don't um and that's uh and for me we have a high standard of living which we want to maintain uh in my personal view if we're not going to maintain it by reducing wages we're going to do it by being smarter being data smarter simple as that um and we're not going to invent new technology to replace it without having the interconnected fabric of data to make it work that's so fundamental um so that's that's a conversation Simon that I think I'd love to really accelerate and of course that's cross cross department and there's no one entity that knows or thinks it's responsible yeah look I I I think look I understand government has got processes rules and procurements that are slow and cumbersome and you got to accept that that there's good reasons for that um but I just think we need to have a reflect on um our economy and productivity and where we're at and what our Global peers are doing that we're not doing um and come up with mechanisms that can hasten the process between identifying the problem and the strategy and execution um and there are ways to do that with some creative thinking creating some Innovation fund where the funds the budget is sit there and government agencies can tap into that for supporting Australian Tech uh companies in emerging Tech areas and critical Tech areas you know we've signed up to International quad you know forums like the quad and orcus um and there's also a disconnect um this probably going off in the tangent between defense industry and the rest of the economy industry policy where we're a small country there's only so many phds in Ai and Quantum can we have a dual defense industry policy and rest of the economy policy probably not but they're kind of separated um in this country and there's some there's some big thinking that needs to needs to take place and done fairly quickly and Kate from a consumer perspective it it um you know a few points from what Frank at SL raising about um you actions of government is there um sort of confusion about what's good and what's not good in terms of AI feel like there's a lot of negative that that tends to come down there's um there's a lot of regulation in terms of you know um which I feel like a lot of the message might be coming to Consumers looking to control AI for their protection but um is there enough sense coming down for the benefits like what what more do you think uh government and Industry um could do for that um consumer confidence side and to say well this is what this this is how it's good rather than how it's bad yeah I'll pick up on a couple of things that Simon and Frank have said um you know I totally agree um with Simon on the fact for a more coordinated and cohesive response from government Tech policy the reason why we've all been so busy working Tech policy is it cuts across every portfolio like it's everywhere it it's in consumers everyday lives um and that's one of the things I talk about as as the consumer data Advocate is that um you know I'm really heavily focused on the ways that data interacts with people's lives in ways that they can't avoid you don't like what Facebook's doing get off Facebook but realistically people engage in data and digital when they do their supermarket shopping uh when they travel in the train to go to work um when they go about their jobs like it is literally in every aspect of Our Lives now um and so I think without having that coordinated response across government then then consumers don't feel that that trust in government's decision making and what it can mean is that we can see some sometimes conflicting decisions so I call out say the cyber security strategy and the Privacy Act um in relation to data breach um and and how they treated those so we saw post optis and Med Bank the introduction of some some really really stiff penalties um in an amendment bill um that introduced penalties up to $20 million um for data breches um but then at the same time the cybercity strategy comes out and it's trying to go more with a safe harbor approach by saying to organizations if you have this incident happening you tell us as soon as possible we can catch the bad guys and you won't be at fault and nothing bad will happen to you and in fact the office of the Australian information commissioner had to then come out and say hey we don't think this is necessarily great in terms of organizations meeting their obligations um for data minimization and privacy by Design you're really kind of giving them a get out of jail free card um and that's not what consumers expectations are um you know and I think in relation to that I would probably disagree with Frank in that data breaches aren't that impactful for the individuals who they happen to they can be incredibly stressful um and particularly when it relates to things like health insurance or Telco well there's really essential services that people um rely on and particularly in terms of digital inclusion um many people don't have that level of digital literacy that they know and be able to interact with these services so people who might only have a fairly limited digital footprint in terms of Telco and health insurance maybe don't know about multiactor authentication and certainly organizations I don't think individually are doing enough to encourage people into that I think if you look at recently the 23 and me um breach um that was the genetic uh company that links people's family histories together they essentially blamed that on users and said because users were using the same username and password that had then been linked on other organizations websites they were enabled to do a credential stuffing attacked on 23 me but the consequences of that meant that a large data set of people who identified as ashkanazi Jews was then leaked on the dark web which you can see the implications can be pretty severe in a current situ ation where there is a a war in palestin like by Israel so these these are not small consequences so there's individual consequences and there's large geopolitical consequences I think we've got a really really important lesson here to learn with a huge increase in scams is directly linked to our poor data minimization and our poor cyber security practices of the past the fact is the dark web is full of everyone's information and I think that's what Frank is referring to is like the horse is bolted right like this is actually all out there and it's in the hands of cyber criminals but this is the lesson I think that we can learn on AI is if we don't think what can a very small group of Bad actors do with this technology we talk a lot about data democratization we talk about getting AI in the hands of everybody but we have to acknowledge the fact that when we mean everybody we mean also some people with not good intentions who are looking to exploit and manipulate and ultimately without strong action from government it's going to be ordinary people who really bear the brunt of that um you know today in Cambra a group of scammed victims who've lost in the tens of thousands of dollars um have gone to CRA to meet with politicians to try and explain their side of the story and it's an incredibly traumatic um experience for the people that it happens to and the reality is it can happen to anyone I saw just yesterday on um X or formerly Twitter um that Corey Doo who anyone who knows about his work he's like incredibly knowledgeable about tech he he writes science fiction but he also writes book about tech he got scammed um recently you know so it literally if it can happen to Corey Doo it can really happen to anyone um so I think that you know I I acknowledge that it's very complicated from the government side but really here trying to represent those ordinary consumer voices that this is incredibly impactful um incredibly damaging um and we can learn the lessons I think from the past in cyber Security and apply them to AI in recognizing that will be people who who want to do the wrong thing um many many organization and businesses will want to do the right thing and we do want to get that confidence and Trust um but we need to act now to try and protect people in every way we can um from those Bad actors okay we we would agree with that um the tech industry um and certainly with those Telos we said we've got as members of the AAA that been part of those hope high-profile breaches um it's interesting I think we've we've shifted as you've alluded to from um data uh personalized data being digital gold and the oil rush of the 21st century through to a digital liability um that you can hold too much and cleaning up you know the retention laws and things is really really important that provide that legislative and legal clari to what you need to keep legally if you're a Telco for example um it was important to update those laws and and absolutely agree that um digital privacy is really really important strengthening the Privacy Act we're incredibly supportive by just in terms of cyber security um and the examples you give around um different rules and confusion you're you're 100% right um and that goes to better coordination right and that is if you're the office of information privacy commissioner if it's Pro if it's data um again I think it's within 24 hours you got to notify and then under under other breaches it's 48 hour 48 hours and under other acts it might be seven days so there's all these different um different rules and could be the same breach but you got to report to different entities for different breaches so again we're hoping a cyber coordinator could actually bring all that together but when new legislation is being drafted you know it'd be great to sort of align all of those um the the Safe Harbor you mentioned um the government's not going down that that road they're calling it limited use um we never suggested um that it would be get out of jail for recard for um negligence um in relation to securing people's data um but what we um would hope that it we want to actually encourage um those who can't cope with a breach um that's significant that they go to government for help so you want to create an environment where they reach out and don't hide it and pretend it didn't happen um but you also um so what they what the government's proposing we heard this from home Affairs last week um in a Roundtable we had with them this limited use concept where you can actually come to help um the the the concern we don't have Clarity on is around the regulator can still regulate and go after you if you if if through lack controls and not doing what you're supposed to do but if you make that information available to be assisted in defending and patching then that shouldn't be held against you and shouldn't be forwarded on um that regulator can still seek that information directly so there's some detail to be worked through there um but we need these are the all the settings we need to get right so the industry has Got Confidence um and then from the tech industry we're called the data um storage and processing sector um which doesn't have a home in government there's no Minister responsible for it um which goes to the point Kate was making about we don't you know where does digital economy and where does this Innovation policy sit um it sits everywhere um but you know we need you know if a breach happens by Opus or Med bank or or logistics company you know the responsibility should sit where with with the end user rather than you know a a data center provider um unless there's a lack control in the data center but we're talking about these global global platforms that are pretty robust usually the breaches have always been in those big high-profile cases poor user access control right the weakest Link's usually the person having a uh no passwords and and or really weak passwords and then you can access the whole network when they should have been partitioned and only be able to access uh what they needed to access to but but agree with agree with your with what you're saying Kate um the citizen data we need to get these things right because it comes comes down to trust in the economy one one good thing I'd say that's happening um and something that that we've been supporting for years and that um the government's moving to introduce um minimum standards for Consumer iot devices which is which is a really really good thing we got to weed out the Bad actors and and um and um that's very very pleasing indeed I reckon um um we're not the first in the world we're not far behind a very small handful of compan countries that are doing it now so um I think that that's a that's a really excellent um piece of news it's going to be more complicated these things are security is always complicated um um but it at least set a minimum Threshold at the start um and then we can start ratcheting up um what it means um we we're um we think having a standard a minimum standard is one thing um uh one thing that we're strongly pushing and the government's considering and working through is we also need some sort of way of telling the consumer um what how secure these devices are which means Poss a labeling scheme that's beyond the minimum in other words if everything's the minimum um what's what's actually appropriate you know what's appropriate for this sort of thing you know is that whole personal data is it something that's in a dangerous situation or or does it not matter is it my light bulb going on no that's a really big conversation um but it's but we're at the starting point of consumers maybe now starting to understand what that might even mean so I really welcome the conversations around that because um I think my general observation from talking for people overseas is that the Australian consumers aren't quite as aware as others in other countries about some of these things they're they're scared they might be just as scared maybe more scared but they're not as aware because I don't know many reasons maybe it's a cultural thing but it's also an educational thing um and something like like introducing minimum standards and everything else starts the conversation going uh and uh and I think that's a that's a really good thing Frank just just for people who may not be aware um those minimum standards in um around connected devices that's been that's in the sub security legislation that's been going there's two tranches of it I refer to earlier so that'll be picked up there which is which is good yeah y it's definitely going to happen um it'll take a year and a half or so to actually happened but it's going to but but the beautiful thing is that decision's been made the legislation will be set um so yeah ball rolling but the you get this flavor though that there's after the socki Sons there's two new pieces of legislation coming just in cyber there's AI regulation coming um there's some good changes happening digital identity hopefully it'll take a while to filter through years as well but um there's a lot of things going on so you can see why in that survey I mentioned that there are people in the industry going geez what's government doing is this's wave after wave of Regulation now most of it Justified and very good um couple of pieces that we would disagree with but on the whole we're supportive and the Privacy Act changes too but there's a lot for everyone to absorb um which I think um we need to be mindful of and it is uh interesting again the um 's research has also shown that um there is this um you know though there's this heightened concern about cyber security in people's um data being stol and are previous digital lives report also showed that consumers don't really know where to go for that source of Truth um with this information um we've had a a question coming well a question comment coming from from Anthony so talking about how his clients are constantly emailing him asking you know is this is this a real email is this a scam um and uh he seems he keeps on reporting these things to scam watch and and and Google safe browsing um but it for um said our research it shows there's no source of truth that people point to they jump on a search engine and Google it um which if the The Trusted resource comes up first that's great but if it doesn't um that's not necessarily a good thing so Kate I guess there are a lot of um there a lot of places people can go to to report stuff a lot of places people can go to um to find information but um what could we do more to really be um creating that point that people know I can trust this and this is this is the best practice yeah I mean I think there's a l kind of a lot going on in that question and I think we can see um one of the challenges with scams is that the second you report them something it goes away and something else Pops in up in its place it's that real kind of whacka Mall problem that being said the um a c has indicated that one of the best wise ways to fight scams is more data um Frank would agree I'm sure um but the more that people report that is actually use ful um they can get better insight to what kind of scams are coming up and they can issue consumer warnings in terms of trusted information um you know I think this is where we can see where the impact of generative AI might actually be working against us in terms of creating that trust so if we start to see more uh search uh engines and Google uh using bud and and Microsoft being Etc using the open AI um gp4 um using generative search we know that that's less reliable um and in fact people might be getting less and less reliable answers when they search online than they even have been in the past um you know I think when when search kind of first came out it was not that trusted there was a lot of junk but over the years I mean search now has been around what 25 years um it is has been giving pretty high quality results Google in particular spent a huge amount of of money investing of how to get that that um eat um e eat now I think they have they keep adding letters to it but the you know the expertness the authoress the trustworthiness of that information and we may see that begin to unravel once generative AI um hit search we really haven't got across the problems of Miss and disinformation um in Search and again to this idea of reliable information and I'll just call out kind of two things um on that one is the fact that we're seeing some really convincing deep fakes I don't know if anyone thought that story this week of a a company that was scammed out of I think it was 40 million Australian um dollars um by a deep fake CFO on a video meeting that's that's not something that's on people's awareness um deep fakes misinformation disinformation um is going to be a bigger problem I'm coming into it so again those trusted sources of information I mean I'll call out uh Choice uh because I can um as a trusted source of consumer information um and we work really really close closely um with um The Regulators a c and and ASC and um also the stran financial complaints Authority um as as well as acma Etc um on making sure that we can create that trusted information for consumers and that there's a safe place for them to go that being said though we no measure for the amount of wrong information on the internet like this is the the volume problem right of how much misinformation is out there but it's how the reliable sources is getting smaller and smaller I saw this uh story last year which is just kind of like a little funny anecdote um but kind of has serious implications is that there's now all of these mushroom foraging books on Amazon which are entirely created using generative AI but the information they have in them is wrong it's telling people to go and pick mushrooms that might in fact be harmful for them so how is anyone to know buying a book about mushroom foraging on Amazon that they're buying one that's written by a legitimate expert vers versus one that's entirely written by generative AI with fake authors and fake expert profiles and fake websites um you know so it's just one little kind of indication um of where we're at in terms of understanding trusted information and it is in incredibly hard for individual people to be able to distinguish um the real from the fake so in answer to that question yes please keep reporting things but it are we keeping up probably not right now is the answer yeah look that's interesting um Kate and I think I think that's the we haven't had much or anything no discussions really on data Providence and that's a that's a creeping one and know there's a lot of stuff happening in the EU around data Providence right now it's got it's a it's a fish thing to deal with um but um my gut feel is this is going to be a bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger issue um I mean data Providence for industry is like fundamental you know when you look the sensors you have and the and the data in there and you get you have to get rid of the outliers and all sort of stuff and there's a lot of AI around that that's a controlled environment fundamental that's how the industry works but broadening that out um that's a big that's a big one um and so in indeed I think um I bit hard to say which is going to be a bigger problem but that one's that one's a that's a big one can I just couple of things that um listening to that conversation um really interesting is the digital identity legislation it's proposed to provide a secure way of proving your identity to get services so that your private data doesn't get leaked or hacked um so you can prove your identity without having can provide you all those credentials to a real estate agent or to a bank or or Telco so I think that's going to have some utility in the economy once once it's rolled out um which is a good thing a really interesting data point going to Kate's Point around generative Ai and search 50% of that the source of the truth for jet TB gbt is Wikipedia so if you think the Wikipedia is the gospel then that probably and is all is the source of truth of all things um then you probably got a problem but uh but that probably gives you an indication as to where it's drawing most of its data from at the moment now chat GPD is is going to have exponential growth and get more more data hooving into it will get better over time but that just probably gives people pause for for thought in terms of um the accuracy of these algorithms and the data sets I'll just add another little interesting anecdote I also read recently that many of the large um newspaper and media Outlets have stopped web scraping so have stopped the scraping of their sites and so obviously including the New York Times which is in litigation with open AI but many of the other what we will consider reputable sources um but those that haven't tend to be the very very far right wing the bright Bart and the news max um so you can kind of say if then the only news data or the media data that is being sucked up um and scraped for these generative AI um programs is only a very narrow uh section of the political Spectrum you can then see how that bias and that misinformation um can creep in even unaware um for the the people who are building the bot so you think you're getting you know larger you know and the larger the data set yes probably the more accurate it's going to be um but we're starting to see some of these problems kind of enter into that data Providence pipeline we might not see the results of them and you know in the geopolitical land Cape this is one of the largest election years uh will be so it's kind of a world shaping year so the fact that we're not on top of the Miss and disinformation um problem I think is going to be kind of really critical and it's just so so far away from what the average everyday Australian consumer is really thinking about so in that sense I do really feel for the challenge of government at the moment is there are some really big thorny issues um and they're all kind of interconnected up and that's where we kind of need to come back to that coordinated and cohesive response and it's not the way that governments generally are used to working they used to kind of having divided portfolios um and I really think we need to start thinking more creatively about how we do government and how we do h of government policy um because the world has changed and we need to be able to respond to that to be able to meet the the needs of our citizens and consumers right yeah there's a great question there sorry I just thought answer the questions kind of it will take AI tools to beat AI um when it comes to cyber and privacy breaches so our industry is already providing some solutions and tools to to to beat the baddies the Bad actors um the reality is um The Bad actors always tend to be one step ahead and it is a bit of a catch up but it will take AI to beat Ai and those tools are already in the market yeah and on the data Providence thing one of the areas that's hot and that's needs to be addressed and the government is working on it right now is the data Providence of carbon offsets and um and looking and that's um again a question of collecting the right amount of data which isn't being collected and also authenticating it um and I think that there's a there's a there's a transparency and um a requirement for openness that we're going to need to need to get um um from people who create the offsets etc etc so there's a bit of work to be done there technology can so evidently Do It um and so it actually requires um um some rules and um and that that that people follow so that we can actually trust it otherwise we really W won't be you know we won't be getting carbon neutral we getting little less than neutral I just gonna call out um then go back to what Frank said earlier about standards I think there's a real role for standards here um and I certainly um agree with Frank that there's very welcome to introduce minimum standards in in iot um and connected devices I think that's um really really positive step and that's something that can create consumer trust um and now um I'm also a member of the as a consumer representative of the AI standards committee um and we've certainly started to see a big pipeline of Standards coming through um in Ai and I think um if the government were to move to make some of those standards U mandatory that could have a similar effect in um enabling that consumer trust um to return but also providing certainty um for businesses that they were all working to the same uh standard at the moment um I think there is a bit of um confusion because we've got um the government's announcing that they're going to create their own AI safety standard but yet we know that there's an existing ISO standard um particularly around risk management which is 4201 which will be very soon published in Australia it's been published internationally um as well as there's some n standards probably people in certain sections of the ICT industry are more familiar with working with n than ISO but there's certainly standards available um so I think that is is an option that the government should really consider um in terms of making that cohesion across industry um and making that interoperability I mean I think that's why my preference would be for international standards over in Australian specific standard um but in any case I think any move towards minimum standards any words towards mandatory standards really helps to uplift consumer trust um and and really sets where the kind of Baseline expectation is um for organizations I think this um this question before about what's in these large language models is going to be one we'll be talking about for um I think a fair bit of this year and some um interesting observations in a report that we put out um last year um that we commissioned with um some researchers from CSR data 61 and the um University of Technology Sydney um which we've we published this atlas of Australia online report um it was noted the uh the the high influence of Australian websites in Google's large language model model and part of the research actually sort of looked at well um what what what's likely being picked up by these other large language models and and is their way of uh predicting it and um Australia's uh has quite a high degree Australian websites have quite a high degree of network centrality um this report also found so there's the hope that a lot of the uh a lot of Australian websites and good Australian content um is ending up in these models so um it'll be interesting to see how that evolves going forward but I'll Chuck a link to that report in the chat too because there's amongst other things um that's an interesting uh interesting point to think about is where where are these where are these coming from and where's the bias going to be towards and maybe it's uh maybe it's maybe it's towards Australia which could which could work out quite well for us globally um so there's my little bit of optimism um but uh like I think just sort of as we sort of move to the tail end of our of our time together um I just thought i' I'd sort of come back to this question of um of uh of industry and what more industry could do because Kate particularly you mentioned the 23 and me started breaching blaming it on um consumers um there is a trend towards by some of the big tech companies to get rid of passwords and move to things like pass keys and and uh things that can't be fished um so should we be chucking things back on 23 M saying why are you still using passwords um look yeah I mean I think one I think important thing to think about consumers I do think agree with Frank that there is growing awareness and I think over time consumers will become more educated and more engaged um but the reality is that you shouldn't need to become an AI expert or a tech expert just to go about your daily business and to interact um with the world you know I've you know we've all probably got toilets in our home I don't know how the toilet works but I know that I can call a plumber when it breaks I know when it breaks I know I can call the plumber and they'll come and fix it and I expect them to be certified I expect them to meet minimum standards I expect the government to create rules about how the plumbing system should work so I think we can take that kind of principle to how technology should work in everyday's people's life so the basic question of should 23 and me be blaming users for their poor password management no absolutely not they're a company that holds genetic information and a company whose business model is created by linking up people's family history they should have known that that was a Honeypot and if they saw people not changing their passwords or having passwords that were leaked they should be monitoring that and they should be prompting their users or as you say they should be using a different type of credential um that they can look I think digital ID um as Simon pointed out is a really really big step forward I think it's got huge benefits for consumers it can be something that's really really simple for consumers to use they don't necessarily need to understand every aspect of it um it means that some of these problems will go away in the future but it's definitely not consumers and end users job to fix this problem it's the people who are making the money out of the business um who were who were you know suffering that that bridge they're the ones who are ultimately responsible yeah and I think some of the Privacy Act um recognizes a little bit more of the the shifting of responsibility for providing responsible service or a good service as well as you know getting the consumer to say yes to whatever the answer is to the very important and undesirable question so um so I think that rebalancing is is an important one and so indeed the opportunity for new technologies frankly is on the responsibility of the service provider obviously um and so I think that um is's education to be done there um uh and um uh and D I say government has a role in that as well you know I mean what's good look like you know I mean let what's what's no longer acceptable and um and it's fenly hard to get through through the industry uh because we're all everywhere but that's why they need to work with industry not just declare the answer because that's not enough that's that's why you need the coordination and the collaboration that Simon's been talking about you've been talking about utterly vital and it never stops it doesn't stop at it's not doesn't happen at one consultation it happens all the time that's how it works if it works well well I I'm I'd be Miss Frank if I didn't chuck in a question to you at the tail end um and we did have you on a webinar might have been early last year or the year before um and I'm interested whether anything has changed um should I be more or more or less worried about saying anything around Alexa now than I was before Oh man um I don't I can answer that question to tell you the truth I think that there are more Trolls but there are more smart people who can attack it as well I I couldn't I I think that there are like everything else there are good and bad services and I wouldn't be able to stand here and say no generally speaking I'd be quite happy to order a pizza on Alexa but I wouldn't necessarily order my car or do my banking or anything like that on it um that's my personal opinion and and and ironically I'm a bit of a tech ly even though I love Tech but it goes to the it goes to the the national security issue though when you take it up from the Alexa ordering pizza for example to your connected home to your connected Logistics to your connected economy to your solar you know smart grids so you can see why government's re exercised to make sure that we we do through our the supply chain of the technology sector that there's there's no vulnerabilities for the economy um uh but we just need regulation to be um targeted well thought through and unappropriate I I'll throw to you for the last last word Simon um and I'll just um need to bring on the appropriate regulation and and bar moment about a minute left do you think there's a lot going on between state and federal governments as to play between who should be involved in what space there's a lot of State digital ministers now

2024-02-15 08:42

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