in the future we may have Technologies sufficiently Advanced that they are indistinguishable from Magic but could those civilizations also be indistinguishable from primitive [Music] ones Stone Age Bronze Age Iron Age steam age Space Age we sure you like our ages and we often Define our history around a given piece of technology that seems critical to that era but what about technologies that don't fit into an era and yet remain in use or which would imply a more primitive era and yet exist in a more technologically advanced one as we often see in science fiction but sometimes even in our Real History these are what we call anachronistic Technologies ones that seem out of place for the time but we also wrap them into developments that might have occurred had some other technology not been invented we see this in cases like steampunk where the steam engine technology that ran trains and factories the 19th century saw far wider and more creative uses we wonder what might have happened if a civilization had run only on steam engines for a few centuries or if some great Empire like Rome had discovered that technology at its height or another like Firearms often in fantasy we have WS that never discovered firearms hes or steam so as to remain locked in the Medieval Era indefinitely indeed fantasy Works often have quite the mishmash of anacronismo we also see a lot in science fiction folks in an era of advanced technology riding around on horses while they've got anti-gravity levitation and cheap Interstellar space travel or using swords and other melee weapons or sidearms that look flashy but are no better than what a duelist in the wild west or a soldier in the trenches of the first world war might have Star Wars does this a lot indeed it's probably one of its more iconic aspects with droids and Speeders and blasters in the same environments people are riding animals like tontons or giant lizards around using lightsabers and channeling magic energies of the force so one of the things we'll be discussing today is how realistic that is or perhaps is not along with what aspects of our own Society might be considered anachronistic while we might poke a bit of fun at a few settings and franchises for unrealistic uses of anachronistic Technologies I should emphasize that they are trying to tell a story and it's often intentionally a high concept one like King Arthur in space or the Wild West in space or sword and sorcery in space so they were not aiming for realism and we're not going to throw stones to them for that as many are wonderful stories plus we don't need to throw stones we have more advanced weapons and that's a good thing to keep in mind because a lot of combat in science fiction isn't just unrealistic for having sword fights and dog fights but maybe even for having humans at all indeed regular plain old vanilla humans may be the most anachronistic thing appearing in a lot of Science Fiction and a lot of Science Fiction is written with the intent of allowing us as modern readers to enjoy it and also to draw on classic themes that don't happen anymore but are very foundational to our culture even if in cases like Wild West Gun dos or protracted fencing fights with swords between Knights or Samurai they did not really happen that much in our actual history we probably also need to acknowledge early on that times or orders of Discovery anachronism is the state or condition of being chronologically out of place in practice what we really mean is a historic or anahist as a piece of Technologies associated with a period of History used a given time and culture we only have one known timeline with one history so anachronistic is fine enough but in discussion of fancy stories or alterate timelines or Technologies developing on some alien planet planet made by alien Critters the term anachronistic gets a bit iffy as an example the Einstein salard refrigerator was designed by those two men just over a century ago and has no moving Parts nothing in it is Hightech whatever that really means and it simply requires water ammonia as a refrigerant and a pressure equalizer like butane or methanol inside a fairly intricate set of pipe work and containers you apply heat to one of those such as by sticking in a fire and it cools your box for keeping food or even cooling a room it's low Tech enough you couldn't make it in any bronze or copper a society and now you have useful Refrigeration a few thousand years before the present I would be a bit dubious if it could be invented by anyone without a solid knowledge of thermodynamics but then someone could say the same with the steam engine which is basically the technology the three laws of thermodynamics were developed around in the 19th and early 20th century and yet we have had steam engines long before that indeed all the way back to the 4th Century ad Midway through the clal era albeit it is a fairly crude toy there could someone back in the Bronze Age invent one probably not could one follow a diagram to make one yes easily more so than the steam engine I should think since there's a lot more moving parts and pieces that can explode under high pressure steampunk is probably one of our best known genres that focuses on seemingly anachronistic technology and is more interesting than R just label or fridge Punk but it raise a bit of a key point for consideration if a given technology is introduced into a much lower Tech society that people can build and have good motivation to build isn't it very likely they will quickly understand its function and grasp The Sciences around it and we do have tons of real world examples of this even ignoring that the culture that invented a given device is really just example zero since that culture did not invent it some inventor did albe it usually on the backs of earlier devices and thinkers but during the colonial era we had a lot of Technologies introduced into civilizations that lack them like Firearms but even including the wheel or other technologies that required things they didn't have the colonial Powers were generally more technologically advanced and yet in their turn learn certain Mining and agricultural techniques we see at two-way streets even in cases like the exchange of horses and agriculturally useful corn and potatoes between the eastern and western hemisphere in many cases we don't really have a good picture of what their early introduction and Adoption of those Technologies devices or organisms look like but we have tons of examples of comfortable Mastery of the new thing within a generation or two we should assume any technology that we could explain to a 10-year-old is probably something anyone through any period of History could have gotten and a certain amount of synchronicity could have led to the quicker development of for instance we had a basic understanding of solar power before we had power plants and electricity to any homes Beckel noted the effect of sunlight producing electric charge in some materials back in 1839 and the first commercial solar panel was created by Charles Fritz in 1881 one year after Edison patented the light bulb it was half a century before Russell O created the solar cell design right before the outbreak of World War II and almost two more decades before Bell Labs created commercially viable silicon solo cells by then coal oil and nuclear had quite a head start in both development and deployment it would be very easy to imagine beckville deciding to spend more time on that or getting developed more in countries without a lot of easy access to Coal or having a more adverse response to the smog of that era solar Punk is one of the other Punk genres besides the two better known cyber Punk and steampunk genres of fiction but it could have become reality so too on some planet that didn't have much Coral or oil species developing there might have had to stick to steam powered by firewood or wood gas or develop solar sunor or nucleo so it's not just about one Tech technology developed earlier it can be about another just getting invented a little later or being a little less trusted remember Napoleon's alleged comments on steam engines for ships you would make a ship sail against the winds and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck I have no time for such nonsense we can laugh about that now but if you didn't know about steam engines you'd probably notd at the remark it does sound kind of crazy like blasting people into Space by having them ride on a million pounds of burning fuel and it kind of is too Rockets blow up a lot and early steam engines often spectacularly and pyrotechnically failed blowing boiling water steam and burning material all over not good inside a crowded and wooden vessel building a ship out of metal which sinks in water rather than wood would also have been fairly Unthinkable so is building a road out of metal for trains to run on in an era Where Metal was vastly more expensive before we got cheap steel and yet the besser process or some of the other ones for Mass producing cheap steel could have been made at earlier dates of History once made though a given technology would tend to be the focus of efforts and rival Technologies is often set aside in favor what seems the better current competitor as technology progresses it is quite common for tried and true Technologies and and objects to be incrementally improved such as by refinement of shape and composition a knife produced in medieval Europe serves much the same purpose as a modern knife but the latter has benefited from Superior metalurgy as does the medieval one over bronze or Flint knives other Technologies may be rendered obsolete entirely or at least far from popularity the horse and buggy experienced this when the automobile became mass produced now being mostly delated to leisure activities but in my area it is entirely common to see a horse and buggy on the road as we have a large Amish population so too scooters on the local bike trail because wheels are fine but the gear and chain for a bicycle is not permitted swords still Fascinate us there are many channels several much larger than this one devoted to sword making or testing out fantasy sword designs in real life with modern materials scall and many others come to mind swords are now part of ceremonial military ritual rather than actual combat in favor of firearms and indeed most war is really done with tanks hurs planes and helicopters nonetheless they remain incredibly popular items even in my area where hunting deer is practically the official Pastime you are as likely to find a sword or knife collection in a house as a gun collection there's also still tons of horses around and not just an Amish households though War whyde that's probably less true especially on a per capita basis however reduced popularity does not mean no one uses these and other old Technologies or improves on them you'll get a better saddle nowadays than people would have had a century ago nor does obsolescence mean everyone wants to use newer Technologies there are any number of motivations that could lead people and even whole cultures to embrace order Technologies in favor of newer ones mechanical watches over digital ones was common and remain so even in an era of smart watches but even these folks May opt to improve things Beyond when these Technologies were in popular use I'd emphasize that because we often have certain technologies that either resonate with us or very much do not I often say that as the technology train runs on and allows ever easier personal survival it makes it easier and easier for folks to decide they want to get off at a given stop this technology they use but not others I've also commented before on how in my own anecdotal experience it often seems like a lot of us who are very futurist aligned not only still have our fair share of lower tech devices lyed around our homes but often more than the normal I still have a collection of handmade paper notebooks I use for notes for this show for instance and they are definitely anachronistic Tech as they are typically made using a modern tech to enhance an order process even something as simple as f leather or paper that has that old timey look but takes and holds ink better A lot of Science Fiction writers will also very slow converts from pen and paper to typewriter and later to W processor we also still tend to use a lot of paper books when digital is arguably better in almost every respect and people still trade in old vinyl records or Nintendo cultes or laser discs and CDs and if anything vintage and retro technology and theme are constant source of collector trade and Resurrection with minor changes for new fashion or style this isn't the only reason for folks to keep paper books around though and anachronistic Tech can revolve around a distrust of Reliance On Any Given technology too while even the most Ardent biblo file will be hard pressed to deny the advantages associated with being able to carry entire libraries worth of books in one's pocket not everyone will choose to rely on phones tablets apps and other computers for such things for some this may come from concerns of pragmatism and security a book cannot be Force updated via the Internet for censorship reasons or wiped clean by a solar storm geomagnetic event the EMP of nuclear detonations or malware a book also cannot run out of battery power or be rendered unreadable by changing file formats or lost encryption keys for others like myself the main concern may be principally one of Aesthetics and personal taste my office where I write has a big old wooden desk surrounded by big old wooden bookshelves full of science texts and sci-fi novels and a lot of vintage space art that all help set my mood as I write our episodes I and many others also just like books as objects the appearance of a full book shelf the smell of the paper and binding the tactile sensation of the pages though I should note that real books have their own problems besides being far more expensive to make and larger in size than digital ones paper ages grows brittle can tear stain and burn while ink can fade Advanced Materials could split the difference by replacing the paper and bindings with ones able to withstand centuries or even Millennia of use without any degradation perhaps with Pages made of flexible diamond or corundum weave and the wordss and illustrations part of the molecular structure of the page we have the example of people using swords to fight with in Frank Harbor's Dune but another tech they have in that fictional universe is a crystal sheet one molecule thick and super hard they keep records on for Millennia and we have a lot of folks who like to improve on some abandoned or obsolete technology as a hobby or profession someone makes those handmade paper notebooks after all or forges those swords or trains those horses indeed we have large organizations like the sca the society for Creative anachronism that are less about historical reenactment and living history than in their own Wards choosing to selectively recreate the culture choosing the elements of the culture that interest and attract us and the sca's case that's the Middle Ages and it's a theme common in a lot of role playing games too period dress is common these days along with cosplay but for folks involved in it it sure is nice to have modern sewing machines or Amazon to get those costumes or modern fabrics and materials so you can look like you're from Antiquity but not have to be uncomfortable while you're at it climate controlled buildings do not require thick and heavy coats or dresses but we might like to wear the fashion without sweating to death indeed you might get climate controlled clothes and future clothes might get to eras seemingly more over the top than the height of Victorian or alt Deco fashion yet be more comfortable and flexible than pajamas and easily done we are not necessarily always talking purely autistic fashionistas in the future either folks living off Earth might need to wear a lot of protective clothes that are quite heavy and that might result in as elaborative styles to cir coats as anything we saw medial Knights or Victorian Lords and Ladies decorative space suits are not a thing yet but they will be and we all likely see anachronistic Recreation related to that one thing I like about Warhammer 4000 a setting full of mixed and anachronistic Tech is that the folks running around in advanced armor with Advanced weapons are not uniformly simple in their regalia like we often see in sci-fi shows with limited costume budgets but get very intricate and detailed with their panoply perhaps the most straightforward motivation for a lot of anachronistic Tech is simple fascination with old technology and making a hobby of recreating and col colting them they aren't really Mass manufacturing much like in the past every piece is hard to make and thus a lot of individual decoration is incorporated into it and that decoration is understandably most prized by collectors perhaps the most straightforward motivation for a lot of anacronismo and fancy fiction especially of the adventur and Military variety creates many historical and ancient weapon enthusiasts for example though War gear and or clothing isn't all we collect and indeed sewing machines for making clothing are quite the collector's item such people may be content to collect old swords and Firearms while Others May seek to improve on them a sword made from Modern spring steel or carbon fiber can benefit from Superior modern metalurgy in the future this may go even further further as yet unrealized materials technology could create swords even sharper more durable more corrosion resistant and far lighter than any sword ever wielded in combat historically the same holds true for obsolete forms of armor we can't rule out some new technology making them useful again like in Dune where personal force fields make Firearms redundant and everybody fights up close with knives indeed we could imagine Superior materials making handheld Firearms useless like exoskeletons or powered armor or personal Point defense there is a limit as to how fast you can move a bullet by chemistry and personal radar systems and a blade of lasers might be able to casually track and deflect bullets fired from range one seemingly minor change in Tech could disrupt the whole military landscape and see old Tech's rear mge with new improvements we see this even with computers as we often see attempts to build the out other materials than silicon semiconductors including mechanical ones or those using improvements to the vacuum tube technology that computers used before semiconductor transistors computers and calculating machines are a lot older the anti KRA mechanism built thousands of years ago and discovered before the modern era of computers is the oldest known example of an analog computer and thought to have been used for calendar keeping in astronomy and the even order Stonehenge is often spec culated to have served a similar purpose our ancestors did tend to be understandably rather interested in the skies weather and Seasons they also had an interesting calculating machines even Beyond Simple tally sticks from Counting boards to more sophisticated types of Abacus or astrolabes how hard is it to think they might have developed a mechanical computer for Wilhelm shiko or blae Pasco did in the early 17th century indeed this is the 400th anniversary of shiko letto Johan kepo discussing his creation of mechanical arithmetic instruments perhaps only the coil springs and their use in clocks permitted a real explosion into gears indeed Blaze Pascal is the first person known to Warner wristwatch strapping his pocket watch on that way so it obviously influenced his work but I see nothing to indicate these couldn't have been done earlier if the stars had aligned to make it more Curious and fashionable over the years we've done some episodes that relate to this topic like post-apocalyptic techno barbarians post science civilizations and techno primitivism and I always half expect someone to argue in the comments that it's absurd to imagine folks abandoning useful technology or voluntarily choosing to use harder approaches I don't recall anyone arguing that I think it rises beyond the hobbyist level too I mentioned the Amish earlier and my own predilection for keeping lower Tech items around I SP spend so much time trying to steer into the future that it's nice to have some counterweights so to speak I do love history of course there's tons of books on it in my home albeit most are my wies and my best friend is a history teacher I often write or work with an audio book on in the background and it is as likely to be a fantasy or history book as a Sci-Fi novel the week this episode airs this show turns 10 years old and I turn 44 and I've lived through a fair number of shifts in technology and studied previous ones a lot in order to try to see future ones better there's nothing new about folks getting reluctant about new technology but I don't think any period has seen such an attraction to Retro and Vintage Technologies Fashions and Styles as ours I think AI is now driving this even harder later this week we'll be talking about Transcendence and sort of The Unofficial companion video to this one as is last month's next technological Revolution whose script I was recording before writing this episode Transcendence will be talking about ideas and concepts for moving beyond the strictly human whether it's becoming posthuman or ascending some other plane of reality and it's commonly shown to be the end of civilization and science fiction the reason why in a galaxy billions of years older than our planet there aren't huge sprawling Galactic Empires everywhere sci-fi also often shows cultures that went back to more primitive Technologies too and usually to a very anachronistic period we have a tendency to show idealic rural Village Life as hard working and Back To Nature and not really mention how utterly brutal that life tended to be but of course with an agonistic technology it does not have to be and I should note having grown up near Amish and menite communities most of my life they often do use technology including batteries lights and solar panels and rarely have an issue with using things produced by technology like cheap highquality steel often own cell phones and so on there's also a lot of EX Amish who cheerfully and adeptly use whatever technology they feel like and what is allowed by the community is often very specific to the local community we see a lot of techno primitivism in sci-fi in the Stargate franchise for instance we often see at wards where A Primitive culture is enslaved by a handful of advanced aliens posing as gods or have thrown them out and retain some of their more durable technology like energy weapons we even get to meet some of the other ancient races like the Knox who are pure simple hunter gatherers to visitors but have floating cities in the sky hidden by invisibility technology it's also implied their nominal ancient allies the Asgard doomed their species by excessive Reliance on on technology even down to altering their physiology at a root level when your technology is good enough though especially if you are incorpora into yourself you likely don't need much of an apparent presence or technological infrastructure some Genetically Enhanced cyborg might look like you or I while having an IQ of 1,000 the strength and durability of a superhero never be sick or tired or need sleep never feel uncomfortable or age and have toward terabytes of knowledge and entertainment in their mind or invisible in the cloud to access without need of a TV or VR headset so what need do they have for plush houses I don't want to focus on techno primitivism today as mentioned we did an episode on that already but there's an example in a Sci-Fi novel in Peter Hampton's Commonwealth Saga where they come across the home water arrays that transcended and it's got their primitive cousins still living there at a lower tech level they are not ignorant or particularly technophobic they just didn't want to go the rest of the way down that road they know where the Ascension machine is and what it does and are no more shocked or confused by visitors arriving in spaceships than someone living in our rural log cabin or an Amish household would be by someone showing up in a truck with a cell phone and I tend to think a lot of civilizations will see folks getting off the Hightech path or transhumanism train at a destination they personally find more comfortable and that we will only see a rise in vintage and retro text and themes and anachronistic developments of them indeed you might be living in one of them it is very easy to imagine folks in the future might decide to go live virtually Matrix style or as an uploaded mind and have picked this current ERA as the place to dwell you or I might have had our memory of the real world removed or quarantined or just be the kids of those who did and this reality might be an ancestor simulation as they all called but anachronistic indeed it's very hard to imagine any ancestor simulation not built specifically for historic or anthropological experimentation would have not be anachronistic see our episode are we living in an ancestor simulation for more discussion of that so what are some other examples of current nistic Tech or where it's likely to develop well we talk about anachronistic farming villager going back to the soil and we do see a lot of this in gardening where folks use Auto techniques but with more updated tools someone goes out with a TR in a hoe to labor Under the Sun with a smartphone in one pocket and one which these days might be connected to their electronic rain gauge and weather station in that Garden or controlling their irrigation system or just playing their favorite YouTube channel while they work by the way don't forget to like this episode And subscribe to this channel but another thing to note is that we are likely to see a lot of anachronistic tech for farming and life support on offw bases as we get out into space and everything is being grown in green houses or hydroponically on some otherwise dead and airless World under a dome or LED lighting there might be a long time waiting on tractors and Fields of weed out there see our AG rewards and F planets episode for more discussion of that and while there is much promise in various future farming technology such as Hydroponics and vertical farming these require infrastructure and won't appeal to everyone traditional farming has its own challenges however especially in less than optimal conditions genetically modified crops and livestock could in theory allow oldfashioned styles of Agriculture to be higher yielding and self-sufficient crops engineered to fix nitrogen for example would eliminate the need to buy and use nitrogen fertilizers concerns over GMOs or secondary environmental impacts might not be considered as big a deal on an alien and an artificial planet or of course we might simply have gotten better at their use and controlling unwanted side effects disease and pest resistant crops and livestocks would increase yield and reduced need for pesticides and Medicine you might even engineer plants to produce certain medicines or complex chemicals with these and other modifications a group of techno primitivist could live with medieval level technology in their everyday lives but perhaps get better agricultural results than many modern people do and they don't need to be the best at it just good enough as a society using 2% of their population to grow food might not feel obliged to employ distasteful methods to lower that to 1% modern materials would also improve various Farming tools and fences reducing maintenance and replacement costs this is already quite common just so common that we don't really notice it as anachronistic and many times old techniques pop up in agriculture as viable again with some modern tech refinement frequently old family FS have old Tech lineing around that someone feels like restoring or tinkering with one might argue modern beekeeping caught back on as fashionable in large part to Modern materials making the suits a lot lighter and cooler to wear than old ones while also being better at protecting you from irritated bees I think that's how my wife got into it both her grandfathers kept bees but those better suits of nowadays make it cheaper and easier to get into it and get kid-size suits that our kids nieces nephews and friends kids can try on and go see the bees safely up close a lot of hobbies get easier to do the old-fashioned way with modern revisions woodw walking is a great example I still use old style hand tools for a lot of it like a simple chisel but they're made from Modern materials and I or the hobbyists or professionals use whatever power tools we feel feel like and a big one we all have access to libraries full of knowledge and these days instructional videos on everything if you want to learn how to make a cabinet or even steal and hammer out a sword there's stepbystep videos on YouTube about it and again it's often implicit that there's a lot of this sort of behavior in the future we discuss on this show 10 years back I made the original Mega structure summary video all episode zero to encourage sci-fi writers to not get so focused on classic Sci-fi planets as settings and to look at big space habitats as more interesting varied and realistic scenarios for future human living locations but even here there's an assumption folks are often building anachronistic environments and cultures on them while many may enjoy the Aesthetics of modern brick steel and glass or the bright clean white of utopian future Urban cityscapes not everyone will some may op for the appearance of traditional architecture but still want to take advantage of the safety and durability that comes with modern materials one can imagine an apparently simple log cabin in the woods but one built from logs reinforced by carbon fiber and coed with diamond or entirely convincing synthetic wood stronger than steel classic Stone architecture could likewise be simulated by synthetic stone or nanotech concrete which makes structure stronger and more long lasting or as is often the the case now simply using a thin facade of stone over other materials nature preserves and national parks could maintain a rustic appearance by having their infrastructure look old-fashioned such as Ricky rope Bridges actually strong enough to support the weight of freight trains or perhaps a culture just views obvious signs of Technology as ghost and strives to make everything look as natural and humble as possible any old-fashioned architecture could benefit from subtle use of Advanced Materials indeed you could argue that a lot of Rural and Suburban living in the modern world is invested in the same approach or a lot of urban gardening green spaces and rooftop gardens too you do not technically benefit in any way by having a lot and garden that suck up your time and money or a workshop or sewing room or doing some home canning or food presolving for instance show me anyone making a profit or getting big savings from any of those and I'll show you some bad accounting rationalizing or better ways they could have made or saved money with some exceptions but even the most productive hobbies are break UNIF fails at best it really does not stop us from liking home crafts or craft shows or extensive Lawns and Gardens and yet in post scarcity or quasi post scarcity civilizations even while money might still be in common usage day-to-day survival isn't what folks are principally spending it on so efficiency of production gets less important even as advanced technology makes that production so much more efficient and automated instead you see a shift to keeping yourself occupied and that can be in pure fun-seeking in Virtual environments in video games or going for hobbies that feel productive and give you a sense of personal accomplishment purpose and usefulness and there I see a lot of Pathways for anachronistic technology to emerge and develop technology exists to help us live the lifestyle we we want better or more easily to open doors so if an anachronistic technology A Primitive one reborn and updated can open that door for someone to life and purpose they want there's nothing outdated or vintage About It ultimately there really is no appropriate time for technology no technology can really be anachronistic and a high tech Society is simply one with more technology and that includes those that were used in the past and now may serve a new and changed purpose even if in some cases that purpose might be helping us find our own [Music] purpose the marketplace is getting pretty technical these days and as we saw today that's not likely to change anytime soon even among techn barbarians living in a post-apocalyptic Wasteland all that math and science is priceless they can be a little intimidating to Len but but they don't have to be and that's where brilliant.org can help whether it's the basics of math and science or the newest ideas in artificial intelligence brilliant has an amazing and ever growing catalog of lessons that can help you learn and have fun while you're doing it build real knowledge in minutes a day with fun lessons you can do whenever you have the time learn through problem solving and doing with Hands-On interactive content that's fun immersive effective and intuitive brilliant.org content goes to the basics all the to advanc materials on math science data probability computers and AI start where you need to 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2024-09-16