hello this is Margaret Ajibode, the STEM positive disruptor and on Mia's conversation I have a special guest Professor Helen James um she's an OBE she's got an OBE,oh she tells you about that and also she give us more about her background and she's a board chair and she's also a higher education leader of transformational change and I'm so grateful that she's come on my platform I met her at the Tomorrow's Engineers Live program which was in a middle of March um and she just talked about the the need for inclusive engineering and the engineering language and I think it's so important from where we are as these platform is here to educate to raise awareness change people's perception and demystify what stem is that science technology engineering and Mathematics it's about providing practical Solutions about how can we bring out our enthuse our young people or make it more diverse our environment how can we bring public into our domain how can we manage this idea of skill shortage the environment what is the things that we can do so uh without further Ado welcome Professor Helen thank you so please tell us more about yourself okay yeah so I'm from Baron furnace um which is North West it's a shipbuilding town where they currently build the the nuclear submarines but it was armaments as well as shipbuilding and I left school at 16 and went and did an apprenticeship as a mechanical engineer in the shipyard and I was the first girl there was five of us that year but we were the very first five that were taken on as apprentices in the shipyard and it was absolutely fabulous and if any of you are thinking about doing an apprenticeship it is the most privileged position in my in my opinion but I guess I'm biased privileged position to be in because you're being paid you're learning and you're working alongside really skilled Engineers so you can really learn that really learn the trades I basically failed my 11 plus so I didn't go to the grammar school I went to a secondary modern school as they were then and it was probably the best thing that could have happened because it was I was able to do music I was produced sport I'm a pretty all-rounder but love math and physics and yeah I kind of left school at 16. against all the advice I was given it was very much I really that's what I wanted to do [Music] um I had no idea what engineering was if I'm honest Margaret absolutely I have no idea whatsoever none of my family worked in engineering um but it was a very practical decision if I'm really honest because I knew because it was a a blokey profession blokes tend to get paid better certainly they did in those days you know women's work was shop work and care that's not not what I wanted to do at all but by engineering I knew that I could earn money and uh be independent as an independent woman and not have to rely on anybody so that's kind of why it didn't that's amazing you know something I do love the idea because when you think about us when we um young people are looking to they have different reasons why they want to go into the workplace and you you made a good point about when you did your apprenticeship it was actually for practical reason is that and you saw that this environment you can actually earn more as a woman than if you worked in a normal field where they expect women to work in and I think this is quite important for young people to hear that look it's okay that if your drivers are to be more financially independent then that's okay as well and if you need to go into this Avenue although you're not sure what it means or what it will entail at least you give me your chance of giving yourself a chance to see what you can make out of that so thank you very much for that and I am really impressed that you're one of my first five women that actually started that program as an apprenticeship so we're saying shout out to those apprenticeships that Apprentice out there that are doing great things as well um just tell us more about your background because you can't really work you're the vice chair with um Turner's schools we also um a chair please explain more about what you're doing your current role and where where you are yeah sure so what what I did my I forgot to finish my apprenticeship I then went into they sponsored me actually to go to university so I was paired while I was doing my degree and I went to Leicester University to do a general engineering degree because up until then I've done everything to do with mechanical engineering but I didn't know whether I might like electrical engineering or civil engineering um as it happened it was mechanical engineering I wanted to do and after I finished my degree I then moved down to Portsmouth and got a job in the um first of all at Marco well my currently Space Systems basically and we we designed and built satellites or parts of satellites I love my time there but then fancy doing teaching but not School teaching college teaching um so then transitioned as a lecturer into the further education sector and worked down in Portsmouth but then moved back up to Cumbria and again worked in the Fe sector then I wanted a bit more of the research and business engagement so I then managed to get a job in the University sector at Brighton University so I totaled back down south um and worked at Brighton University where I was there for 10 years but had a number of different roles including Business Development um commercialization of intellectual property working with businesses it was really absolutely brilliant loved it and then I was headhunted for a job in North Wales which was to create a university and it was an Institute of Technology at that time and they wanted it to become a university and I was part of a small Senior Team that was head hunted from different universities to create a university which we did um which is now called glendor University in wrexham um very much about widening participation and enabling um people from all walks of life to be able to go into University um and then after I was there for quite a number of years actually and during during my kind of Journey Through the different jobs I did a master's in education and I did that because I wanted to know and learn a lot more about me as a woman and really that kind of feminist lens and understanding why as a woman would I want to do why did I want to do engineering is that a bit odd and I needed to understand myself yeah yeah rather than just accepting that's what I did so and I found that really really helpful and I did do some writing and research about gender and women and Technology and Engineering which was really enjoyable and then I did a doctorate I went to the University of bath in my 40s I think I was probably in the forces by the time I did my doctorate then that was the doctors in Business Administration which again I loved and then I moved down to I got a job down at Canterbury Christchurch University and I became the deputy Vice Chancellor which for those of you that are not in the University sector it's basically like a deputy CEO chief executive type role so very senior um absolutely loved it and I had all the kind of academic responsibilities but they had an ambition to move into engineering because they didn't teach engineering at that time and so recruiting Me Not only did they get a senior manager but they got a senior manager that had a really wide background in diff in engineering um so over a number of years and there's real relevance why I'm telling you telling you the story about it because what I was able to do was with the whole support of this was in Kent and Medway the businesses local authorities at the University federal education Colleges and Schools all got behind a vision which was to create an inclusive engineering education in Kent and Medway and enabling opportunities for people who hadn't previously had opportunities so for example East Kent is the coastal network is quite deprived so far few people go into University from from that area um I suppose black and ethnic minority students were still quite in low population actually at that time in Canterbury and cancer Medway and certainly from a gender perspective um with women still were quite underrepresented in Kent and Medway there weren't that many businesses in science and engineering and Technology until I started lifting up stones and asking people and and actually what transpired there was a lot of businesses but they were quite small businesses yeah and they weren't celebrated by the region so this inclusive Vision wasn't only about creating a university that taught engineering but it was a it was part of a an ecosystem where by schools young people parents businesses universities they've all work together to I suppose grow the economy in Kent and Medway but through engineering um so quite quite a transformative Vision we were really lucky because we managed to get funding from the higher education funding Council for England because they recognized its innovation in the education space but we also got Economic Development funding from the southeast lap which was brilliant and then the university also put funding in and we there now is a vibrant undergraduates and postgraduate provision in engineering and pleased to say that that as a proportion of women academics in that school it's higher than anywhere else in the UK wow students young women for girls particularly are going there because they recognize it's an inclusive environment I set up very strict suppose recruitment um profiles that I wanted people that were totally committed to our vision of inclusion um not that they could put Reams and reams of academic papers together which is typical in universities but I wanted people that were committed to work with with industry that were working on inclusive projects that we had the Medics working with Engineers we had the computer scientists working with the education faculty and that's really what what we've managed to create so it's still in its early days it's only four or five years old we have a fabulous head of school Anne and she's totally committed to it and the people that we've recruited our totally committed tours as well so the relevance behind that and I'm talking about no no please please but this is so important because I think in a way this is always happening in Kent we're able to Across the um the country itself and I think it's a Way Forward really so I'll let you carry on okay all right yeah so um so yeah so within Kent and Medway we've we've got this very kind of regional Regional approach which is which is you know I think he's he's really transformative and we have had a number of organizations um asking us to do toolkits so for example they're all Academy of engineering have just awarded the projects funding to develop a toolkit around diversity and inclusion because they recognize what we're doing is really quite special across the across the UK so that so that's that so that's one project I'm also Vice chair of Turner schools which is a number of primary and also secondary schools based in folkestone um they are passionate one of them is a brand new school it's a free school and I was initially recruited again because of the engineering technology but they wanted to embed engineering throughout their curriculum so they now have engineering right from year seven all the way through they do GCSE in engineering and so so again there's a a kind of a a Bedrock of testing ideas and and getting it getting a commitment there's lots we need to do there um and one of the things that you mentioned at the beginning was around language and Engineering language yes and one of the things I'm really pushing at the moment and pressing is to is while we talk about stem and I can see real value in talking about stem I'm really interested in emphasizing the E Engineering in the middle because I think people understand what science is they understand maths they even understand technology because they're working with it yes but people are not confident about using the word engineering because it's you know or it's other people over there that do it all what what is engineering and I want to get engineering demystified and I want it to become normalized that that it doesn't matter whether you're a primary school teacher secondary school teacher you will use the word engineering yeah because you're not frightened of it anymore you've Got Confidence about it and so the teachers in in the Turner schools I'm encouraging them when they're when they're working on projects to say but this is what engineering is this is an engineering project it's just applying all the subjects to create something um so gradually breaking down gradually breaking down the barriers I also um sit on the Royal society's education committee and and again that is very much linked from a kind of a Technology based a technical qualifications aspect it's trying to feed in influence because they're very influential with with governments and and other kind of policy Networks um what is that three of them I can't remember now and of course the final one actually I'm chair of the education skills strategy board for the institution of mechanical engineers that's my background it's my profession sure and um I took on that chair 12 months or so ago and so again I'm being now as chair being able to I suppose be out there advocating and leading the institution in its work to do with education skills and making sure that our qualifications our programs and universes are at the Leading Edge you know sustainability for example being embedded and inclusive curriculum so I've got I've got fingers now in a number of different pies that I can lever some of these changes that I want to see across the board I do do you know I'm celebrating um Professor Helen I I do love the idea of including engine and you know and I also love what you're doing where the Turner school is concerned where you're making engineering being in bed across from from primary school or is it Nursery School attitude and I think that's wonderful and that's what we I think most people are saying that look we seem to lose our young people and from primary school days so unless they know what's going on at the very early age ever so difficult for you to enthuse them when they've already formed the idea of what they think um they would like to do in a secondary school era and I I think it's so it's serious I am celebrating what you've achieved and what you're doing right now and also what you do not cross the different areas that you're working or you're involved in and can you just explain because you talk about um engine has a language and the importance of I.T bringing it across so that people can understand can you in layman's language because we want the audience to understand what because the oldest is the public it's actually whoever wants feels important they need to to know and I think it's very important how would you in a very simple terms describe what an injury language is and why it's important so engineering to me is using all the other subjects but bringing them together and applying it to create something so we can talk about being an engineer we can talk about an Engineering Process and and I guess what I'm trying to do is say just in the way that people will talk about science or maths let's talk about engineering um as opposed to oh well it's something I I really appreciate I'm not doing this in [Music] life their language I'm kind of going around in circles a little bit but it um everything you see around you Everything You Touch everything you interact with has been engineered you know whether it's a laptop whether it's I've got a picture that I'm looking at on my wall that the frame will have been manufactured and Engineers will have been involved in that process um and I think the wonderful thing about engineering is that you can go into any of the workplaces so the health sector for example you know in a hospital hospitals recruit Engineers everywhere you go there are there are engineers but we don't use that engineering language we'll we'll say oh well we've made the laptop or we've designed something yeah that is created something so we use other words because we're familiar with those those words yeah it's been engineering yeah do you know something you made up on about in the importance of normalized it's about making it an irregular thing that you say all the time that people can then begin to understand be appreciate it more because as you mentioned um science or you do not besides they talk about science or they we sometimes they include engine has been signed where it's not really true at technology we know about techno technology because we talk about technology all the time mathematics as well that's the same thing all Engineers can say we are lagging behind because we don't make it it's not as normal as the other subjects I'm talking about and you you know I I think it's so important that we promote that engineering language we try and embed it across the board that people can resonate with it and they become a normal thing rather thinking what is engineering really what as you talk the frame and the picture what is its engine is manufacturers isn't it it's engineering so it's about yeah normalizing it so thank you so much for that and you know I so yeah so I want to go back to what you do with what you did with Christ Church about getting it's about into this interdisciplinary getting people different um skill or different expertise to come and work together and also I'm moving a bit well the Turner school is bad you said about embedding and you're from the outset how did you how did you how did the proposal come across and how did you what are those key recommendations that enable that to happen because I think this is something that most of my guests has spoken about we needed to be embedded it has to be integrated from the from an early stage but we seem to be stronger with that but you seem to have found a solution or they're still in a testing mode but it's still work it's working I think it's in its infancy still I think the [Music] um what's going on in Christchurch probably is less in its infancy because it's about four years old now I think within the return of schools um it it's it's there in in that there is a there is engineering embedded across each of the each of the years but I wouldn't say yet that that engineer we're just doing the strategy actually and so it's really relevant at the moment because I'm testing with them what is their appetite for engineering yeah to be much more explicit and inclusive not only in a design technology or an engineering course but actually why don't we talk about engineering if you're in a English literature class or if you're an English class or if you are in an arts class why why engineer engineering shouldn't be just associated with the engineering or design technology and I and I had this when I was talking with the DFE because they've actually set up a new teacher training qualifications for engineers to go and teach but they're it's called Engineers teach physics and what I'm saying to them is it isn't about engineers teaching physics it's about engineers going into schools and teaching in schools they may touch they may teach physics they may teach maths they may they may teach Design Technology but having an engineer in a school environment yeah you then have an opportunity to drip feed that engineering language and way of thinking because we are brilliant problem solvers we tend to look at Cross things rather than in-depth detail which is what scientists tend to do um and we're quite team players so we pull people together and and problem solve so I think the turn of schools is is honored on a journey um but but conversations are being had which is fabulous yes thinking Christchurch it is it is more developed and the the the area that we're tackling tackling sounds negative I don't mean it's negative the area that we're working with at the moment is the engineering academics working with the teacher training academics because my my perception what part of my transformation vision is that I I really want more young people to be studying the physics and the maths and Engineering within Kent and Medway that's really tricky isn't it because trying to recruit teachers in those disciplines is tricky but trying to get that if we're trying to infiltrate that sounds negative but in the schools we should have teacher trainers so those that are doing initial teacher training the teachers of the future need to have a module or projects or something that that they become aware of what engineering is so at Christchurch we've got the engineering students and academics working with the teacher education students teacher trainers working on a project and learning about engineering so when those teachers go out into jobs in Kent and Medway schools they will be able to use the word engineering they will have some appreciation of what engineer is and so that drip feed is is starting so you kind of got to nibble away it's all the different influencing aspects so true I you know I I do agree with 100 and I think this is so important and I think it's very important where education is concerned if we want to if these are young people against that we need to it's not just about the students it's also about the teachers as well it's about understanding what needs to be done and then embedded and make it be a normal thing a normal conversation because when it becomes a normal conversation then you're not overthinking about what is this or what is that so you know you I'm impressed seriously I'm celebrating for us absolutely nobody it's it's true though because again unless your vision unless you can see things beyond the norm you cannot make that change and you know the thing is you've got a platform and you're making use of that platform in such a positive way to bring that change that we've been crying about for so long so again I said thank you so much for that but order now I I know that there was an event in 2022 um I think was that I am a key event and they said um there was a about inspiring the uh inspiring Outreach to engineer solutions for the future challenges um so very briefly do you know we talk about the skill short there's quite a lot we'll talk about the environment lots of things that we're talking about you know even we're not even we don't even know what future problems we may have but what does that mean by inspiring Outreach to engineer solutions to Future challenges yeah so part so we've talked about teachers we've talked about universities and colleges and whatever so for me the app the Outreach is where we have Engineers going out into schools working doing engineering projects um so we have organizations such as stem learning engineering UK institutional mechanical engineers there's other organizations that do it and they go out and into schools and the schools the teachers the young people will work on will work on projects and that really is part of building engineering Capital with those young people and teachers so again it's about that engineering language so that by having Engineers going out talking about engineering working on projects that are linked with engineering and increasingly those projects are to do with sustainability they'll be due with artificial intelligence a whole range of different things there's one organization who that is confident about using Engineering in their name and and I think they're an amazing organization they're called primary engineer all right but they do masses of Outreach work at primary level and secondary level and they and there's no apologies whatsoever they talk about engineering and and I just think that's amazing because some of the other organizations in my opinion are hiding behind stem even though they are engineering organizations yeah and really pressing them to be more confident about using engineering if we if we if we have organizations that are about engineering but they're using stem rather than engineering I think we're we're really missing a trip yeah I would say you know we have now got more young people well more people studying engineering and Technology degrees than than we've we've ever had so it has been increasing it has been increasing it ha it's increasing at a similar rate though to the expansion of the universe so I wouldn't say it's expanding it to higher at a higher rate um was somewhere a little bit behind in terms of the numbers of females in engineering and it does depend what discipline you look at to know what the percentage of women are in the engineering technology disciplines unfortunately mechanical is one of the lower proportions but General engineering chemical is is tending to be ha does tend to be higher so it's about engineering Capital Margaret it's about more people having those conversations about about engineering the the group that we haven't mentioned at all and it was a group of people that I was really targeting when I was in Northeast Wales when I was at Glendale University I set up what was called then technical question dawn it's a science center okay um and we set up the Science Center The Car well for a number of reasons really one was to get parents over into a university environment because in this in the region um it was a lower participation area um quite Working Class People didn't aspire to go to Universal so there was one thing about helping peoples feel comfortable being on a University campus but there was another thing which was about engineering so we did invest in and we got some funding from Welsh government to create a science center in wrexham and that was all about parents learning alongside their young people from these primary kids all the way through really yeah so the breaking down barriers intergenerational learning um now I haven't yet managed to persuade Kenton Medway to invest in a science center but seriously that it that isn't after that whole engagement with parents is an aspect that we need to be engaging with in in some in some form or another really do you know you made a good point and that's so important because they are the ones that help their children to make decisions about what career if they're going to go go on or at least they look onto them anyway because sometimes with The Courier Service that doesn't always work because they also are struggling where engineering is concerned so I I think you know that that project that's working erection they should really I think it's something we should really shout about would need to promote it and I don't know how but we're going to use this platform to do that and you know I seriously I'm so grateful that you've come on this platform so I love the idea and I I it's not just an idea but it's a reality for us as Engineers to think about engine using that engine as a norm using engineering the word Engineering in a normal context because that's the only way we can demystify what people see as engineering or what Engineers do because if it becomes a normal um word you know across how we speak and how we use it then I think people can start appreciative because they can see tangible ways that Engineers are making that difference and what they use because engineering is everywhere and we need to celebrate we need to raise this profile so we can make that difference so that when young people or adults are looking or helping that young people or that to make decisions they they can see or they can visualize what it means to be an engineer what an engineer does and how Engineers so infiltrated or integrated in our society as a whole so you know thank you so much I can talk with you all the time but one just one thing very very short very one this is said not very essential what would you like the audience to take away from this very briefly oh oh that engineering is inclusive um because if we're not inclusive we will continue to design products that all of society cannot engage with a Daft example but if you think about a handbrake on a car it is only now with the Advent of technology that actually we we don't have to yank the handbrake up I don't know about you but my husband used to pull it up and yank it so high I couldn't even then undo it and that's because you've got you've got men designing for men and they're not designing for the total population things have moved on I know that yes yes but yeah so for me it is inclusion and it's about creating an inclusive Society thank you so much I so appreciate you I I celebrate and I I seriously I I love the vision I love what you've done across the board where you are what you're doing right now do you know something I I would love to call you back on the platform because there's so much I can talk to you about because it's so important I know we it's laughing but it's it's what you're doing it's some of that res it can make a difference if you look it in a broader context and I think you're doing great job great work thank you so much I appreciate it thank you thank you um again this is Margaret Ajibode, please listen to this podcast
2023-04-15