We may keep going. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): it's a casual events where it's all about conversation it's literally imagine to be like sitting around in a coffee shop. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): With your favorite people talking about their favorite subjects and that's what i've had the great privilege and honor today to do to invite guests, that really inspired me as an educator before we begin, we have. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Two folks from adobe with us Sebastian this definitely Joe ground if they just want to say a quick hi and Lou to anyone, they might know out there. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: hi everyone welcome hope you enjoy this this is definitely casual informal more like we're going to coffee shop having a conversation. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: So I look forward to this conversation such great great people you have in your own chat that it's on so welcome everybody.
Jill Gray Adobe: Good morning i'm Joel grey and I love the fact that we can have this type of coffee shop conversation this morning and i'm really looking forward to the second half of the year, where I can actually have this coffee shop conversation with some of you face to face fingers crossed. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): i'm going to share my screen and bring up a slide deck of sorts today the topic of our of our get together is a an appropriately, or maybe even appropriately long academic sounding. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): title for a CAFE setting it is critical digital literacy stories of Community and social justice and the aftermath of 2020 and so. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): The rules of engagement today you're all pretty familiar with these by this point in zoom for security purposes only the presenters video and audio feeds are open. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Please put thoughtful constructive questions and responses in the chat pod. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): This event is now being recorded so Jill, would you please start the recording so that means that your whatever name, you have.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): associated with your login will be visible in the recording we will be putting references resources and links. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In the chat pod various TEAM members from adobe will will put those resources in there and then we'll also have a follow up email. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): For those of you who are attending to make sure that any resources we mentioned are easily accessible by you. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): I encourage you, if you want to to rename yourself with your first name and your last name and your affiliation, if you feel like you'd like to do that, as well as pronoun references like I have done so welcome to the adobe creative campus to do recast CAFE series.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Today, that our key words are is our key term is critical digital literacy and what we're talking about and thinking about. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): is moving students away from what you might call a functional notion of literacy or digital literacy, which is just maybe purely mechanical. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): To be able to use their literacy abilities and, in our case, literacy tools and instruments. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): To think critically and to make a critical impact on the world around them so it's a higher order kind of experience and to very crudely paraphrase.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Palo theory, the idea is that it's not enough for students to be able to just read and write words, the need to be able to read and write the world, and so what I mean so many of you have been invested in for a long time them. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In pedagogy of digital media making is to move students away from being passive disconnected consumers of other people's content. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): To becoming active connected creators of their own ideas and the result of this, the end game, the large outcome is for them to be empowered.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): For them to have agency and those words are sometimes overused, but I think that's really what we're after today is for students to be agents in their own lives and so um. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): The other keywords in the title today are stories of Community and social justice and about 20 years ago when I started playing around with digital media pedagogy. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): became a parent of what I did as a writing instructor and a writing program leader was going to be changing dramatically once all of us. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): have the ability to start making podcasts making magazines making posters making websites making film. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That was going to change dramatically what we do when it even means to be literate in our world, and so I thought to ourselves these technologies might be used in ways that aren't so progressive that that serve.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): ends that I don't want to enable what do I want, what do I want what change do I want to stay in. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): My first instinct was, but I wanted students to tell stories that matter to them that matter to the lives to the communities. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That matter to our civic spaces, and so we and allow a couple other people on this call that i've been working with for for decades now.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): started pioneering these pedagogy so critical to new levels literacy pedagogy of critical digital literacy where students, where students were talking just exactly these kinds of stories. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): it's never potentially been more important to do just exactly that, then, in the aftermath of 2020 so if we think about that word math or aftermath. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): we're all sort of at least speaking for myself trying to calculate what to do about the incredibly dramatic experiences we've all had. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Over the last 12 months for a number of reasons, we all know, and so, for me, as an educator and for me personally. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Making something painting creating films making websites has been away, and not just a sort of a personal therapy.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): But an intellectual process to negotiate and deal and think through these things, and so, to enable my students to have the same kind of. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Intellectual processes and thoughts, has been very powerful in my experiences and so that's why we're we're thinking about defining digital group. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): of critical digital literacy today in terms of enabling students to tell stories and of Community and social services, particularly focused on reflections. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Regarding the aftermath, in the last year and so we're going to quickly turn it over to our guest today. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): we're going to help sort of sort of test the hypothesis that i've been working on and asking people about for over 20 years, which is that when we started doing this. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In the late in the last century it just seemed like students and instructors naturally gravitated toward this kind of work with the social impact.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And so i've always wondered you don't ever want to be essential, you don't want to say, well, you give someone the ability to make a film or make a podcast and they're automatically. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): going to do that, to promote social justice, but that has certainly been the tendencies that i've seen. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And so my hypothesis that i'm interested in our guest speakers sort of testing and talking about from their experiences.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): When students use digital media in their academic work, they are very likely to do so in ways that try to make the world a better place. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Now we know that again that's not essential you, we have seen this, we can see these very technology is being used. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): To promote injustice, but in an academic setting it tends to be that way, and so a corollary to that. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Is that pedagogy that prompts students to create craft and share their ideas actively is the best possible way to enable students to think critically. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): develop their own voices and empower themselves with agency, and when I wrote that at first I almost did the academic thing and saying. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Oh, I need to hedge that a little bit I think it's one of the best ways, but then I thought about it and I thought I don't know a better way to do that than this.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And so i'm interested in hearing, my friends, today, reflecting these very issues and these thoughts and so we're going to ask jack to. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): take the floor and unmute your microphone and share with this first of all give everyone a sense of a few who you are and in the wonderful institution you work at and how digital literacy critical digital literacy has been realized in the work your students are doing yeah for sure. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Thank you for the introduction good morning everyone good morning from rainy dreary Winston Salem North Carolina this morning I am presently at Winston Salem State University a historically black college and university of one of the 16 schools here in lansing system. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: I am an associate professor and program coordinator justice studies here so much of what I do has to deal with social justice.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And and exploring researching and addressing some of the inequities we see not only here in Winston Salem and invoke a lot of it, but of course throughout the country to go. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Digital literacy is incredibly vital for our students, particularly being that this generation that we all are instructing today it's a part of their family, I mean it's a part of their DNA. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Half the time some of these young people teach me a thing or two about how to access information or or analyze critically think about certain topics and themes that we study and explore. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Here Winston Salem state, particularly in a justice studies program and the privilege of being on a team. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: That was spearheaded by my colleague, Dr nation where we use digital literacy and all of its components to create the to infuse in the curriculum projects specifically to to this. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: monthly convicted individual on ronnie long and all you guys can probably Google him he's all over the Internet moneyball was wrongfully convicted of a crime here in North Carolina 44 years ago.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: I want to tell you how old I was well or I am but let's just say that was most of my life and Nonetheless, we had students using. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: kind of digital literacy to incorporate into their respective projects and then going so we highlighted this injustice here in North Carolina. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Where students, would you know, create projects, they needed to Todd you're on your point they would do spoken word.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: They would analyze some of the trends here in North Carolina as it pertains to both with convictions and students were able to really shine a global light on this on this individual and this on his main. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And this past year August of 2020 students were able to witness this man walk free from prison after all of the valiant efforts this these past six years or so. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So, so when I look at digital literacy and when I look at how to use your voice to impact social change, they go hand in hand. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Undoubtedly, and to todd's point about pedagogical practices and techniques how high impact practices is critical right. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: We have to ensure that our young people are students are engaged with Community members and Community activists and researchers my job is a little different today because of colby.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: But i've been fortunate to have I teach social justice, specifically i've been fortunate to be able to have Community leaders Community organizations engage with my students throughout the Semester. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: and collaborative projects where they identify social and justices you use digital media to present the crafted and then at the end of the Semester is that it's a campus community. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And for me that's no great award than seeing young people engage with sometimes people they may not have. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: and other circumstances or environments so for us, I take great pride in that and I enjoy the collaboration that we have with adobe we are the only hbc new that's an adobe creative campus.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Which is definitely something I appreciate, I value and I continue to promote the usefulness of this technology with our with our students and staff because it's just not students. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: As I also trained faculty as well, he read Winston Salem state so i'm excited the 21st century, or you know 21 rather will be an interesting year as we continue to promote. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Digital literacy and push it and manifested in and kind of the educational sphere for students, and I look forward to engaging with all of you, thank you once again, and thank you Todd and you've always been supportive and encouraging Thank you. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Thank you jack let's just have a little bit of conversation here in sort of self interest in terms of what about my hypothesis. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Do you think there is this kind of almost natural are essentially link between putting a media production tool that enables that student to circulate their ideas.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Like adobe spark or like premiere pro or premier what what sort of sort of connections, you find between that opportunity for students in general in terms of. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Connecting stories of Community and social justice, and then a follow up to that would be, what about the unique perspective of being an htc here in terms of opening up that possibility in affording that opportunity for those students particular. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Some some good questions so to your first point question absolutely um what I find is that these students for me personally i'm speaking kind of from our own experiences. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Initially I was a little bit apprehensive with your ability to kind of use a spark or rush, because you know these are definitely professional grade tool. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: But what I found is that the students not only mastered the product not you know they were able to do so in a manner that was very, very impressive and they embraced. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: It allow for them to magnify their books, it allows you to take a local project, you know, an open issue, whatever it may be.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And magnified using the production tools of that although adobe or corporate and for me personally, I do use adobe spark pre reading. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And for my colleagues who are watching they can get a chuckle out of this my projects used to be on storyboards so the students would do this. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: and presented on a storyboard at the end of the Semester imagine that wow and now they're creating this is professional grade production that's not only seen by our campus community, but the world once it's posted online, so the world gets to see what our students are doing. Jill Gray Adobe: So your second point. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Here at an HP we're unique environment.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Where. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: we're predominantly African American institution. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Where our students vary from different you know socio economic levels in and backgrounds, education and what I found here is that it. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Using this product here has really, really empowered our student body to just once again expand and and and increase their voice and, secondly, be able to use at school that they may not have.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: gained access to and and another environment, I mean quite frankly definitely back to your hotel lobby, so our students have been using these products. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: consistently for the last three or so years and and they've enjoyed it learn and it's it's assistant them and creating their portfolio. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: As they move on to graduate schools or the career or their respective career tracks so here at an HP see you specifically.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: These products have allowed for our student body to gain access to information that they may have not under these under normal circumstances and it's been an incredible relationship that we can continue to grow, a year by year semester by semester. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In edgy Max you and your colleague wanda why gave a presentation about the digital divide wonder if you have any specific points or thoughts about that divided and how the work you're doing is helping to solve it. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Absolutely so so what I find is that.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: These students today because of their their. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Their understanding of technology and kind of digital components, we have today they've been able to bridge that the by generation, for example in my social justice class one of the groups is a retirement. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: very prominent retirement up in the city does very good things and city. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So they're not as key technology so, but the students, or so it has afforded the students, an opportunity to teach some of our retirees how to use this information.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Then, in turn, our retirees kind of convey some historical context as it relates to some of the issues very dressing. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So for me, I feel like that's critical now, we still deal with, and this is across the board, what everyone doesn't have access to knowledge. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And we don't we don't deal with that here as well, sadly, you know we have students who may live in rural parts of the state or other parts of the state where where.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: access to technology is very limited and saw this this passion year as we went remote full time but we continue to work hard to ensure that equitable access to technology is is is. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: attainable for all of our students, because at the end of the day, this is our future. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: You and I and some of our more seasoned colleagues we're going to eventually go on the best and these young people are going to be the ones in education and research and incorporate and shaping the world and and making changes for our country.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): awesome and i'm fascinated by a sort of the thought process that. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): instructors, have you know the you you come up with a solution to to produce a result and then things change and you go off in another direction. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): You mentioned earlier storyboards that before you had access to these digital literacy tools.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That you were using storyboards to try to be the final deliverable or that to capture the product and obviously the digital literacy tools enable. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): The digital literacy tools enable you to circulate much more easily than a storyboard in the room i'm interested do kind of recall your thought process. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): How, you came to thinking about using storyboards in the first place, as opposed to just writing a paper on word processor or standing up and giving a speech with no cards, how did you get to that media production in creative mode as an intermediate step to where you are there. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: was nothing necessarily confound. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: I was a double major in undergrad and mass communication sociality so i've always had that radio broadcasting production kind of mindset, you know it on the back burner. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So for me, you know in academia, we can make students right thousands of papers and try to critically analyze phenomenon, whatever they may be.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And that that can only go so far, the one thing I noticed, particularly with our students was that they're very creative. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And where they were maybe something that'd be a strong writing some are very strong conveying your message of conveying information to creative thought and process. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So I was like how do I capture that you know how do I balance the two in capturing and that's kind of that was the beginning of. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Okay let's let's work on these presentations let's use some sort of creative media back then storyboarding so that the students can present. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: because everyone isn't as strong with writing word or maybe you know, presenting verbally Whatever the case may be. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: So for me it was that kind of mindset early on, how do I use these students gifts, because they all have gifts once we realize as educators, all our students have gifts it's our obligation and responsibility to hone in and help them kind of you know.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: build upon it, then I was like oh that's a no brainer so from there, I always incorporated some sort of technology now and to all my classes. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: I just confusing information literacy is critical digital technology is paramount in education today, and if we're not incorporating into knows the students. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And that's the way you keep them engaged, because they are once again that's what they know.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: You know long has come to town, when your Professor stands in front of the podium and just regurgitating information listen that's all if you're doing that still then you're going to lose a large portion of it's coming back. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): awesome jack we didn't have time for a quick question for you, because I know you have to leave early was a question in the chat from amanda who's asking, and if you could do this real quick we'll move on to just quickly describe some of the topics that you cover in your justice courses. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Sure, so so quite, quite simply, I cover all the isms so you know racism sexism. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Gender inequality ageism able ISM so I probably are you know we talked about religious intolerance, we cover all the things that you can imagine, occur in our society. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: And we cover them in series so, for instance, and racism, we covered everything from you know civil rights to Jim crow to to stop and frisk to two ratio any qualities and educational system.
Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: Will religious oppression you deal with everything you could imagine, as it pertains to religious oppression. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: You know, Islam Christianity, whatever it may be and what I do is fill out these lectures I bring in my my professionals in the field. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: To kind of bring real world activities real world experiences to class, and so the students, they can study the theoretical explanation, but then they see it in real time and that helps with them understanding, some of these phenomenon that are occurring, you know it's just. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): jack Thank you so much for being in our CAFE today.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): My pleasure so. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): what's that. Jack Monell - Winston-Salem State University: i'm gonna take some more coffee. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): he's been. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): amazing we're going to transition over to Rebecca right and it occurs to me, we think about history you think about where we were a year ago I also was thinking about where we were four years ago. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): When we had the women's march on Washington right around the inauguration, four years ago, and we also think about the me to movement, which has had such a profound impact on that was on everyone's minds in remain sentence.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): When the black lives matter conversation emerged again after the George floored murder, murder and so. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Rebecca is going to share with us a film she made a beautiful elegant powerful film about the position of women in the world today. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Rebecca welcome if you'd like to introduce yourself tell everyone where you're where you're from and then, if you'd like to set up the video clip and anyway, please do that and then i'll roll it when you say role sure. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: hi everyone, so I am currently a first year PhD student at clemson's rhetorics communication information design Program. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: it's a really exciting thing for me in particular I touched on it in the video that I created I come from an extremely conservative Christian background. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: I was taught my entire life that women had two purposes, to be a wife and to be a mother and there's nothing outside of that, and this is very serious, in my family.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: So my parents did not allow me to go to Grad school and I had to essentially wait until I. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: snuck out of the House in the dead of the night to start this journey for myself, so when I write about these things that we talked about agency for me, this is not a theoretical concept. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: agency is something that I was forbidden to have knowledge of not just oh you don't get to do the thing. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: No agency was actually considered sinful in my family men could have agency women could not children could not.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: So when I write when I create and when I talk about these things as a student right now and as a graduate teaching assistant how i'm trying to help my students. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: it's not about giving agency to someone else we can't do that that's not our job we don't get to do that it's moving out of the way. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: and letting someone speak like jack said so eloquently with talking about how do you do that with your students. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And one of the things that I liked about this video project was that it gets a chance to let me tell a story. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And that's one of the things I think about all the time, with my students, how do I let them not let sorry bad words, how do I get out of the way. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: To give them the opportunity to say hey here's a place for you to creatively express what you do, or have creativity is not your bag that's fine.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: How do you want to tell your story, so I can hear you so I can listen, because your voice matters so much and that's what I approach, all of us as stories matter. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And one of the things that we're discussing in rhetorics right now is this idea of first person narrative. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Because in in rhetoric, one of our methodologies that we get to choose is cultural we don't have to be empirical we don't have to do inductive reasoning. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: We can tell stories and have it be just as valid, and it should be, and if we're talking about say indigenous rhetorics.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: If you're talking about oral histories, we have for so long in the West us very broadly here. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: We have put down the idea of oral storytelling as being as good as the written word and that's that's nonsense. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: stories are also theories and they can be just as valid the evidence can be just as ethical, it can be just as well researched. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And one of the things I want to do, moving forward in that search for social justice and that search for removing systemic barriers.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: is how do we make sure that all voices get to be heard that, with very few exceptions, that all stories are valid and necessary, and they help us understand the world, and they help us understand each other. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): amazing Thank you so much, and here's an incredibly powerful example of everything you're talking about. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Rebecca if you'd like to tell people exactly the context in which you made this in the first place.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Sure, so this is for. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Dr yon home beaks information communication is course. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Basically, he he dropped us in the deep end of adobe which was you didn't hit the ground running for this so. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: In this class he gave us a series of texts to read and just have an open response to which was great from a creative point of view, it was. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: It allowed you to just go wherever the text took you so for this one, it was about the title of the book was making is connecting.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And I had a beautiful cross pollination with another course where you had to take a text and alternate so I was rereading Elizabeth elliott's passion and purity. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it's a terrible book, I do not recommend it, but it was one that I had to read growing up, because it was about you know gender norms activity and expectations for men and women. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And so, when I encountered this opportunity to take a text and alter it, I thought you know it'd be great why don't I rip this thing apart, and I can use it for both of my courses, I can film The process of me walking through this. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: This opportunity to develop my own agency and develop my story, and I use premiere pro for this I shot it on a canon mark. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: something or other I actually don't know the technical things for it, which is it, which is a thing your students may not always know the technicalities, but if they can.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: use it it's okay um but yeah it was It was for that class, and it was just a really open ended way of helping us connect to a text that wasn't just a paper that wasn't just a seminar presentation was a great opportunity and i'm glad I got to do it. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Anyway, this is a beautiful film every sense of the word. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): i'm so pleased to be screening.
Northwest Washington, my father may be listened to me creaky tape of a woman lecturing other women and girls about their need for sexual purity. modesty and, above all, submission to God to their fathers to their husbands that woman was Elisabeth Elliot the widow of a man who died will proselytize in the karate tribe and Ecuador. Her husband story inspired my grandfather to move his entire family to keep those so he could work as a missionary for four years. And elliot's influence continued in my generation her frigid morality emphasis on obedience and her frankly emotionally abusive relationship with her husband was held up to me, as an example, a pattern around which my life and future relationship, the spouse should be modeled. Around the same time that I was being taught the Gospel according to Elizabeth Elliot my father decided that I would make a doll house with him since dolls were an appropriate interest for a girl to have.
The process of making this doll house two weeks and involve less quality time and more lecturing about proper technique and when it was completed it was too small for the dolls I already hadn't loved. But every once in a while and you get an opportunity to write a past experience to reshape the impact of that experience on your own terms, for your own purposes. I decided to make my own damn dollhouse out of cardboard with little planning outside of pure aesthetics. I took a certain pleasure and tearing apart Elliot self righteous but passion and purity to paper my little doll house to change its us from one of shame obedience and compliance to that of triumph, and a declaration of agency. I wanted to use this doll House, to express the middle of the state of claustrophobia I felt as a child, how my home felt like that doll House too small, and every possible way. How it felt to grow up with my future already decided, for me, because I had the misfortune to be born girl.
How a to small doll house was not just my present but also my feet to grow up compliant to learn to shrink myself to withhold my opinion. To be a gentle and quiet spirit pleasing to God and to a potential husband how the eternal sameness of my homeschool days would continue into an infantilized womanhood the boundary of my world ending up my father or my husband's front door. But to have this realized in a temporary fragile construction of cardboard and glue allows me to use this doll House as a metaphor for how hollow and ludicrous those beliefs were revealed to be. juxtaposed against the porcelain doll I chose to represent myself the flames that have burned this House cannot harm her.
I wanted to use this little house to demonstrate how as David gauntlet says, making things shows us that we are powerful creative agents, making things is about transforming one's own sense of self. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And so thank you so much for making that in the first place, second, of all the last line they're. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): making things is about transforming yourself what do you think about our hypothesis today.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: I think it's accurate. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: it's about the power of story right and I keep hammering that because one of the things that we get to do as educators of students as lifelong learners is that. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: We get to tell stories and I think that's the one of the best ways to frame that language, because we all understand it, we all tell stories children start telling stories basically as soon as they can babble.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it's a way to say how do I, how do I make sure that in this narrative I am I am telling my truth and I might sometimes get to sell tell someone else's truth, too. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it's a it's a beautiful magnificent way again of moving out of someone's agency and making sure they get that opportunity to do that, I think you're absolutely right, it is. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: powerful and digital tools, give us a chance to override some of our classes systems we're in it's an equalizer right, you can get on Twitter, whoever you are, and you can speak. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it's really powerful and it has a lot of responsibility, packed into it, too, obviously, thank you spider man, but that chance to to be able to speak in ways that we have not gotten before frankly the Internet became a thing.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): yeah it's. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Incredible you know, one of the things I there's so many things I admire about this number one of the things it's particularly interesting to me. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Is that it it doesn't distinguish between what many people have thought of is the maker movement or the crafts movement. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That is specifically talking about making things with your hands, that are not digital that are not technological and here we have both, and I can almost feel the paper, and I can almost smell it burning. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: For weeks. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And I wonder, I wonder what your thoughts and experiences might be about that intersection of the of the tactile making and the digital making the virtual agent.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Well, this is actually really funny so i'm so small confession I actually have been a technophobe for most of my life because I grew up poor like I didn't have access to. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Technology I didn't get my first laptop until as a senior in college, so my whole life up until then was just like. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Okay, I had these little tiny bits of things I want to make something out of them, so I would make these elaborate constructions again out of paper and glue but ever had another house to tell stories when I was a kid.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it was actually really exciting to be able to do that again for Class project, and then to film it and and creative movie in premiere Is this really. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: fascinating intersection of this thing i've been doing all my life, and this brand new technological skill that I was learning with a lot of tears. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: But it ended up being such a beautiful experience and that. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: That ability to have that overlap right have not had the two separate circles that have that intersection it's it's magnificent and. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: No matter what you do, whether it's with a tablet and you're just doing pure digital stuff or if you're doing just pure making something of your own hands, they get to talk to each other and we don't have to keep them separate and we shouldn't I would argue.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): awesome you know i'm thinking in particular about our educational researcher her name is lauren don't and her famous book is sent up in Santa fe and she talks about a pedagogy. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Of did you have to heat us of these small almost shadow boxes. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): designed to help students on the academic margins successfully connected engage and find a place that they belong in our university and college settings.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Where students combine in these boxes elements from their lives, along with elements from the course. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And if we think about the legacy here, these pedagogy is of the making, especially for people who. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): were not in privileged positions, who did not have voice, who were often sent and continue to be sent many messages that they don't belong in higher education. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): These the legacy of this, the history of this goes back decades there was the fox fire appalachian projects, people have been making and telling stories, for a long time.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Clearly, know this is a particular moment at the convergence of these technologies being widely available, along with awareness and conversations about about about social justice at a level that we haven't seen for a long time, and so. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): i'm wondering, in particular, you you've been a teacher now in I can't remember, was in high school or middle school. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: yeah I i've taught everything from seventh grade English all the way up through college rhetoric and composition. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In college college composition.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): What is your perspective of the student experience when prompted or given the ability to craft to make to create, especially for students who who may be on the academic and social economic margins ideological margins like yourself. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: yeah, so I think again because of my background of poverty and a lack of access to technology. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: i've always had a great deal of sympathy and awareness, for my students who don't have access and it's something. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: it's something I kind of talked about in our our last interaction tied where when we approach these things, especially right now with most classes being online. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: We have to make sure as educators, one of our responsibilities is to as much as possible offer scaffolding to our students, we have to make sure that they have access to whatever technology they need, and if they don't what can we offer instead So for me when I was teaching.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Say theater or English. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: I had to make sure that if I was requiring a paper just something simple. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: I had to make sure that I knew some of my students one was homeless and I had to make sure that she had access to the computer lab at school. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: or I would accept a neatly handwritten paper instead it didn't matter to me as long as the work was done, the work was done well.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And it's something that we can do as instructors where you can adapt your course and it's hard, if you have a large number of students, generally speaking. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: We can ensure that we are removing those systemic barriers that we are offering the ability that hey if all you have is just your rinky Dink iPhone at home. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: that's okay do the best you can with what you have, and if you can't run and premiere on your laptop because your laptops too old which saw my classmates had that issue at clemson this year.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: What are you offering instead, what are you telling them that their voice still matters that they can still get a good grade, even if they can't do all the bells and whistles. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: And I can't emphasize how important that is for both the student experience and the instructor experience. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: If we are truly trying to use digital literacy as a tool for social justice, we have to offer scaffolding, we have to do whatever we can to remove those barriers for students it's hard but it's so necessary is. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): it's absolutely essential part of doing all this, and so you know it, you know we see these high production value. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): You know beautiful things made by you know very talented students often who have experience with this, but to me the most powerful and Poignant stories consistently come from the student who's new. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): to being able to share ideas and knowledge in these ways that this is a real breakthrough for them to be able to tell their stories of.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): autobiographical as well as the stories of their community in ways that really make a great impact and so thank you so much Rebecca for having the courage. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And the talent, to share your story in such a powerful and beautiful and impactful way I hope you'll stay on the line for a couple more minutes while we transition to my great friend Dr eddie web out in Arizona, and if you can unmute your MIC. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): and say a few words Hello i'm going to queue up your film, as you say hello to everyone and tell everyone where you work and what it is you do. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That the that the the the video clips going to explain in further detail.
Dr. Eddie Webb: I everybody anywhere i'm here at Mesa Community college. Dr. Eddie Webb: Mesa Arizona. Dr. Eddie Webb: Go ahead and roll this. New media lab academy is dedicated to modernize the written word, under the leadership of residential faculty Member Dr eddie Web.
A team of innovative educators came together to create the new media lab for our students. The primary purpose of the lab was to modernize the curriculum of language arts and provide students with the instruction, they need to be successful in a modern workforce environment. With the success of the new media lab experience at Mesa Community college district has put forth a plan to scale out to other Community colleges across the district. through providing a welcoming environment for our students to research right and produce their own documentaries and podcasts. Through Socratic discourse and academic research students in the new media lab learn about the topics most important to them, ranging from personal identity to issues impacting society as a whole.
Students work with each other in a collaborative environment researching writing and peer editing. Through this academic writing students create the groundwork for their documentaries, as they gather relevant archival media as well as produce original media students in the lab receive hands on experience using industry standard equipment such as news gathering in cinema cameras. Professional recording.
studio lighting and stands and video editing software. Students are proud of the work they create in the new media lab there's no limit to where their creativity continue. Now, with the proposed expansion to other colleges and the maricopa Community colleges district students all over the valley will have the opportunity to experience the new media lab the new media lab academy modernizing. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): So eddie amazing story and for those who don't know you why don't you describe what you're doing at Mesa and how the new media lab that you pioneered there has grown into so much more for these students in particular. Dr. Eddie Webb: Well, first I want to thank the other panelists for sharing their amazing story energy. Dr. Eddie Webb: It is a quite an experience to write to see.
Dr. Eddie Webb: To see this connection that we all have for language itself, and again I started way way back when. Dr. Eddie Webb: You know just doing small little projects in the classroom I think is adobe grew with their applications, you know our ability to be more sophisticated about how we tell our stories we sort of grew with with them, you know with adobe and. Dr. Eddie Webb: But what the work that we do really we don't call ourselves storytellers we call ourselves truth Teller. Dr. Eddie Webb: And so the name of our lab is called a place of belonging. Dr. Eddie Webb: In this name in this concept as a tribal Member, we have a lot of we have a lot of elders come through and talk with our students and just be there in the in the in the lab and community, we have our institute's. Dr. Eddie Webb: And this is idea of having a really healthy and safe place.
Dr. Eddie Webb: For people coming from you know the travel Community travel other tribal members young people to explore. Dr. Eddie Webb: What know indigenous sovereignty, and so my work on my dissertation work was around inherit tribal sovereignty and I work with my tribe for four years, doing a doing a study about what motivates people. Dr. Eddie Webb: Before and after creating and what we do, or are primarily SA documentaries, so you know, through this process does it motivate tribal members to want to engage in identity revitalization whether that's language or spiritual Community being a taking tribal membership to a level of.
Dr. Eddie Webb: You know. Dr. Eddie Webb: More than just being a tribal Member being very active and so that's what my work was is that what does this process that has been so beautifully laid out by our other panelists. Dr. Eddie Webb: Does that motivate people to want to engage because of storytelling, of course, is the foundation of any culture across the globe, but here, here in the Americas and the tribes storytelling became a way to archive the history after enduring you know 500 years of attempt to genocide. Dr. Eddie Webb: And so, not only is it the the storytelling but it's the preservation revitalization of language itself right, and so in our work. Dr. Eddie Webb: You know this is, this is what we did we create this place where people come in can explore these ideas, without being worried, you know about what their teacher may think, or no. Dr. Eddie Webb: No just create a place in the environment to create healthy leaders for in the future.
Dr. Eddie Webb: So that's what we do, though, and it's just it's exciting to see other people so tapping into this. Dr. Eddie Webb: medium, you know, a tool to regain our humanity and what language was meant for in the first place. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): yeah, and so we can see that research directly informing your practice, first as a faculty Member then as a program director and now is a leader in terms of expanding this pedagogy. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And so i'm interested for you to talk a little bit about that, as I understand the story you started, you know with one space with a small group of students.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And if you would you know kind of described that early success and how your administration and people in your community reacted to that. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): To now have grown that into a full blown program as the video showed where additional new media labs are being created for justice reason within your system. Dr. Eddie Webb: yeah so I wanted to say that about the high pot, is no longer a hypothesis for me it's a practice and i've proven it scientifically right that the work that we all do, has is significant.
Dr. Eddie Webb: purpose in people's lives and their motivation to engage. Dr. Eddie Webb: But um yeah we just started I I was in film school when I was in film school, we were still using 16 millimeter joby cameras and then you'd have to save all your money and try to get digital ties somewhere, unless you wanted to. Dr. Eddie Webb: cut you know tape together and all that, but I think I purchased one of the first seven de de slr cameras.
Dr. Eddie Webb: And so we just start I just started doing that in my classes with my students and the very first project we did was a indigenous identity on border town, we actually went down to Florida Mexico it's. Dr. Eddie Webb: So we came back and we filled around town and we film different folks and we cut that put it together. Dr. Eddie Webb: In a drew it was amazing to me put a drew a lot of attention from people that, as you, you know, we had shared it on YouTube and drop the link here and there. Dr. Eddie Webb: And all of a sudden, you know. Dr. Eddie Webb: We had a president that.
Dr. Eddie Webb: That you know walk down and said hey you know i'm not exactly sure what you're doing but keep doing. Dr. Eddie Webb: And so we started doing it, and then we had an amazing chair and amazing Dean Vice President, and they were like still there i'm not really sure what you're doing but let's just keep doing it, what do you need right gave us a little more space and a little more space and then. Dr. Eddie Webb: We put this team together, and I think that's very important for folks to understand it is a team effort you know, none of this happens, by one person. Dr. Eddie Webb: You know I didn't talk to students when they cut that PSA together, I didn't really want to be in it, but there they did it anyway, but you know it's a team effort.
Dr. Eddie Webb: And, and then Todd we just you know was amazing that our cabinet asked me to do a presentation, I did that. Dr. Eddie Webb: We actually kind of got a really big space it's now a studio production studio and then the district folks started hearing about what we were doing, we have 10 campuses over 240,000 students and. Dr. Eddie Webb: You know the the Chancellor at that time to interest in this, and gave us an award around you know cultural studies. Dr. Eddie Webb: And so, then they gave us a little budget to buy some more cameras and lights and stuff and it just started growing and then the the craziest thing was the the city of commerce, the business commerce the Chamber of Commerce here in the valley.
Dr. Eddie Webb: Somehow saw some of our work online and gave us this award so it was it was the craziest thing we were named you know teacher of the year, whatever the thing was, but it was it was the business community here in phoenix. Dr. Eddie Webb: acknowledge what you would I guess consider you know humanities arts liberal arts program and how important the skill set that the students were learning to tell the stories was in business right, so there was this weird relationship and it just kept growing and growing and. Dr. Eddie Webb: that's what we do now, but our primary purpose is you know sad documentaries now here's something that's happened for us that I think is real important. Dr. Eddie Webb: Is that as tribal Members this idea of always having to push back and that's what we're getting rid of it's not always pushing back it's about being who you are. Dr. Eddie Webb: And these are the stories that we're telling more and more authentic stories it doesn't have to always pushing back, because then the focus is on that. Dr. Eddie Webb: But, and so what these labs do is create these environments where you don't have to push back just tell your story or just be authentic about who you are and.
Dr. Eddie Webb: I hope I answered your question, but because it just it's been like a volcano right it and now as people duplicate it took us a while to let go of ownership, you know and say okay. Dr. Eddie Webb: yeah Thank you make it your own you know do it your own way you don't have to do it, the way we do it we're currently working with the documentary film school at a different campus, but they do more personal profile stuff. Dr. Eddie Webb: Since been an amazing journey and then, of course, linking up with you all and Susan I hope she's on here down at you have a my colleagues down there, this has been an amazing journey, you know, to build a community of like minded people who understand, we need to modernize print. Dr. Eddie Webb: and bring it to 2d 3D. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And then the big point is, we know that's going to happen. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): who's going to be at the helm of how that's done in a way that shaped student experience.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): In exact for exactly the right ways and exactly the reasons we've been talking about today Rebecca, if you please unmute and bring your video feed back up we've got. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Five quick minutes to share some thoughts or questions from the audience, you know I you know eddie telling your story and Rebecca I bet you've had similar experiences. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): When I first started doing this as a you know, an English Professor or writing teacher, I thought I have to keep this really quiet. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Because they're going to run me out of department for heresy and exactly the volcano you've been talking about has been the opposite.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And it's been in many ways the outside folks donors, for instance, who have responded so well to the service learning work we've done that have made this thing really connect with so many dots and so. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): jack had to leave i'm very sorry that he had to go, we still have Rebecca in any for just a couple more minutes said, if you have found any questions in the chat potter come up with any. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Follow ups i'd love to hear it right you're just.
Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: really wonderful positive comments about everyone sharing their stories sure eddie and Rebecca are reading the. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: comments in there, but so far no questions I get inspired every time I hear the stories from eddie Rebecca and jack. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: And I know that a lot of our customers get inspired by this, so thank you again for spending the time and sharing your perspective and having this conversation over our virtual coffee shop and I hope one day that we can do it in person.
Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: But there hasn't been any questions todd's been awesome great. Dr. Eddie Webb: shot I would i'd like to make one point, and something that Jackson, because I think it's so important. Dr. Eddie Webb: As we move through this stuff over the years, is when he said, you know the students know this technology and. Dr. Eddie Webb: That is like the piece we're working on now that become going from a teacher to an educator. Dr. Eddie Webb: Is it's not a it's not about my skill set these students, this is their world it's the responsibility of the Faculty to let the students take them.
Dr. Eddie Webb: On this journey, you know you don't have to know everything they're going to teach you as you go and I just thought that was a great point, because I, I remember, I used to say that so anyway. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Absolutely, and that that's been another part of this experience that's been so encouraging. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): You know, when I see rebecca's film when I see the work that you're doing it's so different than. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): The things i'm doing, and yet it all has the same value system and the same purpose and the same outcome, but the possibilities are so wide and deep. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): That i'm constantly inspired and amazed by the resourcefulness the ingenuity, the creativity. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): And, in many cases the aesthetic beauty, not just the objects that are made met that are made, but the spiritual beauty of that as well and.
Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): i'm getting a little a little melodramatic here, but I feel that really is a big part of of this pedagogy of doing what we're doing to connect and motivate students said, do you did you come up with a question are we ready for a benediction. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: Question and Rebecca answered it so great. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Thank you. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Rebecca last thought for you. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: Oh, there is. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: just go go go Rebecca oh.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: um well actually to kind of partially address with. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: What chloe is asking about trying to convince others to modernize our techniques. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: I don't know if that's necessarily the thinking about it like that I feel like it posits an unfair binary. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: it's more, how do we encourage students to tell their stories because storytelling is a part of every single industry, I don't care what you do I don't care of your stockbroker you're still telling a story with other people's money. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: So it's like, how do we get our mindset to move away from. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: This idea of some forms of education being better than others it's no, how do we encourage students to tell their stories and to tell them.
Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: With eloquence and grace and how do we do that for ourselves to as educators, how do we offer that sense of eloquence and grace to our students to our fellow faculty members and that's what I keep trying to to gel. Rebecca Rea Ross - Clemson University - she/her/hers: Everything about what i'm doing around, how do I offer that to other people and do something better than just you know capitalism work till you die, you know how do we do that. Todd Taylor, Adobe (he/him): Thank you so.
Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: I would recommend co you reach out to every single one of these people on this panel is to. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: Continue the. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: conversation about how you can do it because what we've learned is that unless you are speaking to each other, you feel like there's no way you can actually change this or convince others or inspire others.
Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: These kinds of examples and conversation so important and who's in the room, makes a big you know. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: factor in it moving in a direction that you may or may not feel or hope that it would you know a lot of the things that he shared is that it had a life of its own. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: After people saw the work that they did, and it was a it was a chain effect where another person and then another person kept seeing the layers and understand what was going on eventually gets to people. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: who want to make it a priority and make change and dustin the change, so my experience has been that without those connecting conversations. Sebastian Distefano - Adobe: On your own it's g
2021-02-07