136 US UK Australia Team Up to Tackle China

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on this episode of china unscripted the us  uk and australia have formed a defense pack   to counter china as china grows  more and more aggressive over taiwan   but is it too late to stop  the chinese communist party welcome to china unscripted i'm chris  chappell i'm shelley jung and i'm matt ganesha   joining us today from australia is lincoln parker  he's the chair of the liberal party's defense and   national security policy branch well lincoln thank  you for joining us today my pleasure absolute   honor to be on the show with you guys i love what  you do you're at the vanguard of tackling the   probably the biggest issue that's facing not just  the united states but certainly australia as we're   in the thick of it so thank you for what you do  it's my pleasure well thank you tell tell me more okay okay so so to get serious um you know i think  australia and new zealand really have been uh sort   of the chinese communist party's testing ground  for uh influence tactics that they use against   the west uh but it seems like china pushed too  far in australia and there's been a big push back   from the australian government society and the  most recent example is uh august an alliance   between the us uk and australia but it's uh is  is august something that australia would have   done even three years ago absolutely not chris  you you're so right china has been trying to   hollow out our i guess our will our willpower  from within i mean they're very different from   what the soviet union was trying to do  to the west and that was frontal attacks   whereas with the west and and particularly in  australia we've been a test bed and you mentioned   new zealand as well and and perhaps let's not  use australia and new zealand in the same breath   um because we are different countries and we  are certainly looking at our china relations   very differently and so china has been  um trying to subvert our democracy for   quite a long time and you mentioned the australian  government it's certainly been the liberal   government has been undertaking a very concerted  pushback ever since the time of malcolm turnbull   the the liberal party in australia being the  conservative party yes that's right so we're   down under so things flip right so liberals  spin in the opposite direction that one too   exactly so the liberal party of australia is our   right of or center right party conservative  party a little bit akin to your republican party   we are a big tent so of course we have different  views but certainly under the morrison government   scott morrison is the current prime minister  of australia we've been very front forwarded   in tackling the chinese issues of of coercion  subversion um i mean you've seen what they're   doing in terms of trade they've put massive  tariffs on all sorts of our products from wine   barley um wheat through to even coal but now as  you have seen they're running out of energy supply   they can't even heat their homes and now they're  having to return to buying australian coal just   wait till they run out of wine well it seems they  could use the australian lobsters as a fuel source   you also so when they did that we it was actually  great for australia right because we suddenly had   20 lobsters to buy that was fantastic yeah all  right we're making a trip to australia oh i   don't think we want to do that right now that is  impossible right now actually uh so to get back   to august like so why why now like what changed  that this is something australia would want to do   yeah so australia has always been reticent  to go down the nuclear power path it's always   been reticent to go down the nuclear weapons  path and that's not what orcas includes just   to be very clear it's nothing to do with nuclear  weapons however it's it's inescapable and you've   been living under a rock if you haven't noticed  that china is the world's most aggressive bully   to smaller countries in particular i mean they're  even bullying the united states i don't know why   and why the united states is not pushing back a  little bit firmer however certainly in australia   we're a population of 25 million which is a little  bit over half of the population of california   yet we inhabit a very large continent island  so we are and particularly if we are cut off   by the chinese navy and you've had cleo pascal on  before i know you see what the chinese are doing   in the pacific islands that could certainly cut us  off from any american aid so i think australia has   looked at the imminent threat that china poses  us and said look it is time for us now to have   a capability that can certainly uh help  us defend ourselves a lot better than what   conventional submarines can do and so we all  understand that nuclear propulsion provides   a much better stronger capability for submarine  underwater forces than does a you know diesel   electric submarine which has to surface all the  time it doesn't have the same kind of range um   it's it's not it's just not as capable and so  i think that's you know some people have said   that's crossing the rubicon and i'm really glad  that this government has done that because at the   end of the day the government's first role is to  look after the safety and security and sovereignty   of its citizens and we can see what china is doing  we've seen what they've done to hong kong we see   the constant threats that they're pushing on to  taiwan we see what they're doing around the world   we see what they're doing in the pacific islands  and we see what they do to us every day through   this cyber attacks through you know they've tried  to bribe politicians in the past labor politicians   you would have remembered sam dastiari senator  sam dastiari who had to resign because of that   they gave us a list of 14 demands this is all  while they claim to not want to interfere in   the domestic politics of other countries right so  it's pretty clear what they're trying to do to us   and we didn't want to lay down and  take that like some other countries do   so what's what's been the chinese communist  party's response to august i mean as you mentioned   earlier china has not been happy with australia  sort of standing up uh the economic sanctions   the import tariffs have been put on because the  australian government asked for an investigation   into the origin of the corona virus so how  have they responded to arcus well they haven't   responded um as belligerently as we'd expect  actually so of course of course they've come out   through their mouthpiece the global times and  china daily and and other publications and they've   said that you know we're warmongers um and that  we're the you know the whipping boy of the united   states um just all of the usual kinds of stuff  but they've been saying this rubbish for so long   and we see it in australia so often that it just  doesn't make any difference to us anymore and so   yeah we don't really listen to it um we take their  threats very seriously and that's exactly why   we've gone into walkers and so if anything they  should be looking at themselves within to say   why would australia a country that has in the past  always looked to never go down the nuclear route   and suddenly they are and so they are the entire  reason whilst the government may not state that   as bluntly as i have and i don't speak on behalf  of the government but it's clear that is the exact   reason why we are doing that to protect ourselves  from them it's almost as if when you stand up to   a bully they back down well i'm not sure they'll  back down chris um i mean you know and we can get   into the conversation in taiwan um at a later  stage but you know things aren't looking good   in taiwan right now you know i mean we're just  seeing the chinese continue to increase their   their flights into taiwan's air identification  zone um we're continuing to see the rhetoric   being ramped up on them wanting to reunify with  taiwan although we know that that's you know   they've never been one nation um so we're  seeing the propaganda and the the threats   really ramping up on taiwan and taiwan is a  very significant and strategic um democracy in   in asia that we need to protect and defend for all  of the reasons that i just mentioned i mean they   are free peoples they are a democracy they are  about the same size as australia of fact they're   about 25 million people we do a lot of trade with  them as well we should stand as our former prime   minister tony abbott said yesterday in taipei we  should stand shoulder to shoulder with like-minded   freedom-loving democracies but from a military  perspective that's the first island chain so   if china is able to take taiwan they've suddenly  been they have complete access out and can break   outside of the first island chain into the western  pacific which you know obviously guam is going   your territory is going to be one of the first  targets but it also directly threatens australia   it threatens all of our trade routes and we  understand through their aggressive stance that   it's not going to stop with taiwan and if they  take taiwan it also tells the rest of the region   that hey what's happened to the united states  they couldn't defend taiwan don't they have a   treaty with them now look i understand that  the treaty doesn't oblige the united states   government to necessarily go in and put boots  on the ground however perception is reality   we know that taiwan is an ally of the west it's an  ally of the united states it's an ally of all of   the democracies and so if china takes taiwan it's  a big deal the rest of the asian region will fall   and we understand that it may not fall immediately  but but what's you know what's going to happen   with malaysia what's going to happen with the  philippines what's going to happen with with   thailand we know that they're not strong enough  at all and vietnam they're not strong enough   to resist this massive bully and so that is a  big deal and that that threatens our sovereignty   um immensely and so from a humanitarian  standpoint a freedom standpoint a democracy   standpoint and a military and a sovereignty  standpoint australia must stand with taiwan   is that what australia is signaling by um tony  abbott the former prime minister going to taiwan   uh officially no so tony abbott is a former prime  minister he is not employed by the government he   is he has traveled there as a private citizen  he is not the prime minister's envoy as he's   done in the past um having said that i think it  is uh it does send a strong signal um if you've   been looking at the media over the last  day and certainly the social media over   the last day on twitter it has been full of  quotes from former prime minister tony abbott   his support for the free peoples of taiwan  and you know maybe maybe it is time that the   discussion is head is held at some point that  that maybe taiwan should become independent um   you know we we know that under this chinese regime  we've seen a constant trajectory over the last 70   years um it's it's just been going on an upward  trajectory of militarization and aggressiveness   and so one could make the argument that sooner or  later probably sooner than later china is going   to attack taiwan so why not um but but shelley to  answer your question officially the answer would   be no the australian government has not changed  its policy um i would think that tony abbott does   probably speak on behalf of a lot of australians  in a private capacity i'd certainly be one of   those australians i would i absolutely support  what he has done and what he has said and i think   certainly if you you read the media accounts many  australians also support his actions over the   last couple of days so this is kind of like a page  from the chinese communist playbook which is like   oh you know this you know this company is a  totally private company with no connection to the   government and now australia is basically taking  a a totally private citizen i mean i'm not saying   that he's connected to the government but there's  obviously that perception right i think the us did   that recently too actually when yeah who was it  that that went over there completely on his own it   was pompeo did after he didn't he didn't he okay  okay pompeo if he didn't go he was going to go but   like there there are cases where they send people  who are not in the government anymore when you say   they send people who's doing the sending you're  saying that the private citizens the private   citizens go completely on their own that's right  okay well as lincoln said perception is reality   yeah so how so you say the um average australian  citizen uh supports taiwan do you think that's   the case do they know why taiwan is so important i  don't think the average citizen probably knows why   taiwan is important militarily and i think that's  certainly a job that the government needs to   to do better and and as chair of the liberal  party's defense and national security policy   branch that's something that i try to do  both internally within the party because   there's also a lot of party members who have no  idea of why taiwan is strategically and militarily   crucial to the safety of australia but but what  we do certainly since covert times um a lot of it   well all of our meetings are now just like this  so they're they're done by a video conference   um and we've opened up our video conferences  to not just party members but to others and so   yeah i i think that australian public  supports taiwan more because they see taiwan   as a fellow democratic freedom-loving society  that doesn't want to get crushed under the boot   of the chinese communists um australian public um  you know our media has been quite good at showing   what the chinese communists have been doing to  the uyghurs and to hong kong so this whole one   country two systems thing well how did that work  out for hong kong it didn't chinese communists   lied they had a deal in place with the british  they broke the deal they did whatever they wanted   and they crushed whatever democracy democracy and  freedom that was left in hong kong so australians   have seen that on the meat on our media and  they've seen the the concentration camps where   they're they're shaving the heads of these these  poor uyghurs simply because they're muslim and   they're they're not ethnically harmed chinese and  they're sticking in them in so-called re-education   camps um so the australian public kind of looks  at that and goes well hang on that's not right   that's not cool it's not fair why why would  we support china so you know reunifying   with taiwan when we know that  they will crush them and they have   thousands of missiles pointed at them and they  fly their fighter jets at an increasing number   over their island every day that doesn't  sound like peaceful reunification to anybody   so yeah so besides obviously these moral support  uh or you know that australians the feel towards   taiwan uh walk us through what would be you  know over time the direct impact on australians   should the communist party successfully conquer  taiwan and bring it under their rule like what's   going to happen to the rest of southeast asia  and the neighboring islands well yeah it's a good   question matt i mean it's it's scary because as i  said we we aren't a major superpower we're a small   country living on a very large island we only  have 25 million people our armed forces whilst   very high quality and awesome fighters are really  tiny if if we were to have a head-to-head war with   the chinese military we'd last five minutes we we  have to fight with an ally we have to be able to   fight with the with the united states um and and  others if they were to to come along um so i think   what china tries to do and we talked about  this before is rather than what the soviets   did which was full-on frontal attacks all of the  time china tries to rot you from within and so   the liberal governments under both malcolm  turnbull and scott morrison have been trying   to stop that from a legislative perspective so we  don't you know we've banned huawei for instance   we have legislation that prevents foreign  interference foreign influence and all those sorts   of things and they're squarely aimed at china even  though that's not stated i mean it's aimed at any   country but really it's only china that does that  on any major scale so so what would happen if the   chinese communists were to take taiwan would be  as i said before the other countries in the region   would begin to to submit to china's will i'm  not saying that china would go and necessarily   invade the philippines they may build more  artificial islands they may take an island   or two from perhaps from japan um that that we  that we we can talk about later but we will see   that these other countries in the regions will  essentially become vassal states now in time   when australia is ringed we are encircled what  are you going to do and then you've got the   other half of the australian politics being the  the labor party and okay sure i'm i am partisan   um but i would give them due if there was due to  be given the labor party come out very strongly   with an engagement policy with china they've  always wanted to engage and manage the china   relationship so the labour party of australia the  australian labor party's patron saint is a guy   called goff whitlam who was a disaster as a prime  minister but his claim to fame was that he got to   beijing before nixon and started our diplomatic  relationship and since then you've had a number   of labor leaders whose mantra is to engage engage  and work with the chinese which is you know what   we did right up until malcolm turnbull sort of  said well hang on no this is this is not right   um and scott morrison has actually taken the the  ball from uh malcolm turnbull and run even further   with it well so i'm glad you brought this up like  australia has changed dramatically in its view of   china over the years but as i understand there  is still pushback against that that there are   some elements of the government maybe society  that want to return things to the status quo   well that's right so of course you're going  to have some elements of business that want   to make money and i get that you know you're a  business you want profit china is our largest   trading partner primarily because they buy our  inr and our coal but they used to buy all sorts of   stuff from wines and sorghum and and you mentioned  lobsters and things like that so you're going to   get pushback from certain elements of the business  community who want to make money and that's pretty   much how new zealand runs its foreign policy it's  a mercantilist sort of foreign policy like uh well   mercantilist and defeatist in my opinion um and  then on the other side of politics as i mentioned   you've got the labor party um which is sort of  similar to your democratic party in some ways   however they've sort of left representing the  worker and you've got former prime ministers   who are on the payroll labor prime ministers  are on the payroll of the chinese so you've got   former prime minister paul keating who came  who is always he has an acid tongue and he   comes out and he insults america as much  as he possibly can insults our australian   government as much as he possibly can um he's  also on the board of the china development bank   right and and a friend of mine said well you  shouldn't say that he's on the payroll because   he's he's it's actually an unpaid position i said  well how's that any better so he's working for   the chinese for free um um and then you've got um  your friend kevin rudd um who's uh who lives just   around the corner in in new york and he works for  the asia society and he's also a china engagement   manager um and then you've got you've just got the  labor party themselves who who agree with managing   the china relationship through engagement we all  understand what engagement means it means giving   in to the chinese communist party it means  going back to the old days where they had   a lot of influence over us and could call the  shots on foreign policy and and could go through   their list of 14 demands that they had of the  australian government and we would put up with it   and so essentially you become a vassal state  now for the elites that's great so if you're   an elite academic if you're paul keating or  if you know if you're an elite politician or   you know you sell a lot of coal you know  you're probably going to be okay right   but for the average australian you don't want to  be a vessel you know a lot of australians fought   and died and spilled blood for this country  actually alongside the americans to do that   particularly in world war ii and they want to keep  our freedom and they want to keep our democracy   and so yeah we've we're kind of battling against  that and um you know i am getting political and   i am in the liberal party i do want to see scott  morrison return we're going to have an election   early next year um it's not just because i'm a  liberal i'm certainly no one-eyed liberal and   i get in trouble for saying things all the time i  don't particularly want to be a politician myself   but i worry that if we do elect a labor  government that we will go back to the good   old days of engagement and manage relationship  and and bowing down and cow towing to china   um that'd be disastrous you mentioned uh you know  the business people who want to do business in   china and do the trade and things like that and  i think when you mentioned the us earlier could   take a harder stance against china than it is  doing i think that's one of the main battles   we're facing um politically in dc it seems like  uh standing up to china has become one of the few   bipartisan issues that's happened over the last  couple years especially with what's happened in   hong kong with with the uyghurs but there's still  this very large wall street business lobby that is   constantly trying to um you know push back to  like you know let's not decouple let's recouple   uh or china as the trade representative just  said you know durable co-existence yeah she   also used recoupling in her speech that she  used said recently uh and you know i was   wondering in australia with the punishment  that you've been going through on the trade   sector over the last year essentially  um has that changed people's minds about   trading with china or are people still like are  the business people still that gung-ho about it   so i don't think it's changed the minds of the  average citizen whatsoever so if you look at   the polling that we take on a a regular basis  of australians attitudes towards the chinese   communist party um you know they've fallen  off a cliff um so business are are aware of   that um so they have to tread cautiously you  know we in recent times we've we've heard the   the business lobbyists come out and and say that  we should start re-engaging with china so we do   have some of that we don't have as powerful uh  wall street that you have that makes you know   trillions of billions of dollars or whatever  it is off doing business with china whether   people win or lose they still take their cut so we  don't have that and what the australian government   also did was to try and use our trade agencies  as best as we could to try and find other markets   for our goods and services and so when you look  at the totality of trade whilst they hit us really   hard on a number of our exports and we've talked  about those and um sorghum and wine and whatever   um the the overall trade has kept pretty  steady because the price of iron oil was   was at record highs and so we make a ton of money  from exporting iron ore which we do to china um   primarily um but but also coal so um particularly  with this energy crisis the coal price has gone   up so our our export earnings uh haven't taken  that bigger hit actually so so it from an overall   perspective it hasn't their trade war against us  even though they're meant to be members of the wto   their trade their trade war against us for for  you know political reasons has not worked so a   sort of a theme we've been having is the idea of  you know perception is reality you've been saying   that the australian public the view of china has  fallen off a clip what is being done to sort of uh   manage the perception of china both within the  government and in australian society at large   is just something that's naturally happening as  people as the australian media is reporting on   issues like hong kong the uyghurs or is there  anything that can be done to really clarify   in people's minds what the chinese communist  party is especially when you have politicians   who are arguing for recoupling yeah that's a  really good question chris and and i i'd say that   this trip that former prime minister tony abbott  made to taiwan over the last couple of days is   one of those efforts now he did that as a private  citizen and probably in response to exactly what   you're saying because he's he's probably hurt  well he certainly would have heard um the the   australian labor party starts saying these sorts  of things and getting back into their old habits   um and he he also wanted to support taiwan  so i think i think yes i think we do need   a more concerted effort and and as always  we you know we're led by what you guys do   so anything the united states does we listen to  um you know there used to be that catchphrase   in in australia all the way with lbj um so we you  know we've fought alongside the united states in   every single conflict you've been in and  vietnam was just one of them um so i think   certainly leadership from the united states would  be really beneficial and shelley was talking about   um you know the china issue being bipartisan  in the united states and i've kind of seen   that the the talk over china has has slackened  a little bit from u.s government sources   over the last number of months um and you you've  you've seen that the your trade representative   is talking about perhaps reducing some tariffs  on some certain things with china that had been   put in place by the former trump administration  the the conference that they had up in alaska   was kind of embarrassing i certainly think that  given you are the world's sole superpower you   you really could perhaps do more um in terms of  leadership on the china question and and that   would be of great benefit to the region including  australia are there specific things you'd like   to see well i'd like to see the administration  come out and talk about it and and talk about um   and talk about the situation with the uyghurs  talk about what happened in hong kong um and   maybe perhaps tie that to the situation that  we're seeing in taiwan we've seen reports that   perhaps there has been over the last year which  would put this that policy back into the trump   administration that there's been u.s special  forces and marines in taiwan now they mentioned   to a couple of dozen it's not really all that  many so perhaps talk about doing more exercises   with the taiwanese perhaps bring them into um  joint military exercises that the united states   already does with countries like australia so we  we exercise all of the time military's exercising   together is crucial um because when you're gonna  fight together it's like playing you know american   football or a rugby if you don't train together  you're really not gonna play the game very well   right so um you know i think that sort of i'm not  saying that the administration should come out and   and and say that taiwan should declare its  independence i'm just saying that perhaps by   taking some more concrete measures and  and perhaps talking about it a little more   would certainly help the region and and certainly  australia also now uh you mentioned the sort of uh   you know idea that australians have fought  with the us and in different wars since   vietnam right it'll be j all the way right but  uh you know given how you know vietnam didn't   seem to end very well and afghanistan uh didn't  end particularly well uh are australians a bit   averse maybe to getting involved in another  american war or do they see it that way if it came   to defending taiwan yeah so i i i wasn't alive  well i was alive at the end of the vietnamese war it's a good question and i think it's a case  that we need to make to the australian public   so certainly the australian  public as we discussed before has an affinity with the taiwanese people  certainly doesn't want to see them crushed   and their freedom and democracy taken away  however it's a different story when you if   you're the government um when you are you  want to put australian lives at risk um   i think the as we we talked about  before there's certainly a very strong   argument case true fact to be made to the  australian public of why taiwan's independence   or its freedom its current status is crucial  to our own sovereignty and future sovereignty   so i think i think you can you know if you're  a good communicator i think you can make that   case relatively easily that if for nothing else  it's in our own interests to defend taiwan um so and and hopefully you you would think that  other nations would would feel the same um but   uh i think perhaps former prime minister  tony abbott's trip is probably the thing   to kick that off um it's getting a lot of air  time it's getting a lot of coverage over here   and i think that perhaps that's going to  get get the ball rolling to start having   more of those sorts of discussions over you know  push looks it looks like push is coming to shove   and that china is getting close to wanting to take  taiwan um and australia should be doing something   about that and standing shoulder to shoulder with  them obviously it's never easy to talk about war   no one really wins with war what we would  i guess what we would hope to do is to free   taiwan or at least you know get  the chinese communists to back off   well i guess the the best outcome is  that china doesn't attack them at all but   you know uh that's not looking positive  well deterrence is certainly a major part in   preventing a war and besides just occus  uh australia is also a part of the quad   which has seen you know a new life in the past  couple of years what is uh what what is the   relationship between quad and arcus all these  new security alliances obviously aimed at china   yeah that's exactly right chris i mean  they're all aimed at china and the quad   is um well you know it's an a partnership  between four countries who are all facing   a common enemy um you know you've got japan who  are obviously geographically very close to china   you've got india who share you know a border on  the himalayas with china and have been attacked   um you know they had that dust up not that long  ago um and in fact i think we just had another   incursion on the himalayas yesterday where  some pla soldiers accidentally wandered into   indian territory the quad is is super  important because it brings you know the   world's largest democracy in india together  with the united states japan and australia   and i think between you know those four  countries particularly as orcas um perhaps   kickstarts our australia's defense capabilities  it brings perhaps as you were saying chris it   it could be a mechanism that prevents china  from taking any um overt steps to taking taiwan   although i think you have to ask yourself is that  the question is is would is that going to stop   communist china from taking taiwan  now or is it just going to delay it   i mean is it better if they  attempt it now versus delaying it well militarily you'd have to think  so it would be good if we could   potentially fortify taiwan a little bit  better and perhaps include them in some   joint war gaming and practice exercises and  those sorts of things in in order for uh the   good guys to be better prepared but at the  same the same time the longer it goes on the   stronger the chinese military becomes i mean  we've we've seen their navy now become the   the largest navy in the world and it's not  just their navy they have a maritime militia   you can double hull boats that they have or  double hold ships can can do a lot of damage   so i think the longer in some senses you wait  the more powerful they become and if they can   deny access to the region to the americans or  anybody for that matter then you know it's all   over so it sounds like the delay basically it  depends what we do with the time yeah that's   probably a fair point shelly it depends on what we  do with the time and you know to give the the us   government they're due you know they've initiated  orcas together with us and and the the palms   you know the the quad seems to be going quite well  um perhaps we could start doing more with taiwan   so yeah uh i think we're using that time quite  well but i think china are also using that time so   you know we've seen just in the just in the  last few months look at the the number of   intercontinental ballistic missiles they have  stood up across uh western parts of of china um   look what they're doing with their uh their their  jet incursions in taiwanese airspace including the   the one of their newest aircraft um that's similar  to a growler so an electronic warfare and ew sort   of um aircraft so they're it looks like they're  training and preparing to attack pretty quickly   so i think you're touching on like a really  important point here that uh you know for all   the talk of like durable coexistence the chinese  communist party is a brutal authoritarian regime   that is overtly at war with the west taiwan is  just one of these issues uh what can be done to   fundamentally resolve this issue it's not  a matter of just defending taiwan because   it's bigger than that that's the 64 million  dollar question chris like it's not going to   go with inflation that's not that much money  yes i understand you're having some rather bad   inflationary problems in the united states with  five dollar a gallon gas and uh soon i'll be   millionaires no it's just temporary yes so i don't  know you know i mean i think that's a question for   tony blinken and um you know the state department  and those geniuses yeah really can we co-exist   with chinese with the communist chinese personally  i don't think we can i mean we've seen their   trajectory we've seen what they continue to  do they don't stop they keep going it it they   don't have elections you know this g guy has made  himself emperor for life but like i don't think we   should ever get into discussion where we say it's  only g the g is the problem he's not the problem   he's part of the system he grew up in the system  he is just a part of the system if there was   some internal troubles that happened you know i i  don't think it will but somehow they got rid of g   yeah then perhaps you got a smarter guy that came  in and started backing off a little bit it's still   only a matter of time before we get back to  this situation and it's even worse so that's   a really hard question to to um answer chris like  i mean you just want to say we've got to get rid   of the chinese communist party right i mean that's  that's the answer but that's how do you do that um   i don't know we stop giving them money number one  yeah well but they have they have nuclear weapons   they have icbms they have a massive military  their navy is now larger than the united states   they they're not afraid to use trade sanctions  um for political purpose whenever it suits them   um they don't abide by any contracts any rules  they're in the wto the bill clinton brought them   into the wto they don't abide by the rules  in the wto they don't abide by treaties they   did a treaty with with the united kingdom and  then broke it and and then crashed hong kong so   i i can't see really what you can do with  a regime like that i don't know i mean   i think it really does come down to we have to  stop funding them because if you look at things   like the power shortage right it's bad it's so  bad and it's been bad since the summer and it   it kind of only started to uh like western media  only started understanding how bad it was a couple   weeks ago but like you have factories that are  only open one day a week or two days a week   um they're so short on electricity and like  if that continued that would be a huge blow   to the chinese economy now of course we're so  interrelated now it would affect the world economy   but with things like evergrand we're pumping  so much money into chinese companies often   chinese state-run companies blackrock still says  triple investment they still say we are funding   the chinese communist party so if we had you know  the things like the tariffs if the trade sanctions   like when you start cutting off the funding they  do the economy is the primary thing for them they   have to keep that running or else they will face  massive internal unrest you know things like the   australian coal thing that you mentioned like  when they they were trying they held a hundred   or they held a million metric tons of australian  coal for a year in ports and then they they had no   choice but to like you know let it come in because  they needed it like these and that was still only   a day's work yeah like if these kinds of things  continue it's going to spiral out of control for   them you know and but like if we keep pumping  money into their system we are propping them up   well that's a really good point shelly and i  think we have to stop yeah the first thing to   do is to stop propping them up stop funding them  stop wall street pumping our a 401k money um   over here in australia we call it superannuation  um and and exactly rights try to to push back   instead of reducing tariffs increase  tariffs however i wonder is it too late so   we could do all of these things or the united  states could take the lead and do these things   and that would cause some harm and perhaps it  might make them back off for a little while   and wait out for a new administration maybe that  maybe they wait 10 years maybe they make 15 20   years maybe they don't care what happens to their  population maybe maybe they treat their population   like north korea treats their population you know  we all know that they spend more money on internal   security than they do on external security which  is mind-blowing and at the same time they're all   well they will probably have willing trade  partners from other parts of the world um so   you're absolutely right we should stop  funding them immediately we should take a more   i don't want to say an aggressive stance but just  call them out for what they do just announce the   facts to the public so the public is aware of  of their actions um and yeah maybe we can do   some of those sorts of things and that'll  help i'm not sounding very positive here   i feel like i mean you're a defense guy and all  the all the defense people we talked to the you   know you've been sounding the alarm for so long  right yeah you i don't know if you've had um   us navy captain jim fennell retired on  but you know he's he's been studying the   rise of china as part of his career in navy  intelligence for 30 years you know he he was   let go by the obama administration for simply  mentioning that china was a potential threat   like um what all of those things that people like  jim fennell and grant newsham and others have   been saying for all of this time and and indeed  bill triplett um who wrote the year of the rat   they've been saying this since you know  the the 80s um if not before and yet we   have not heeded any of their advice we many  businesses and elites have become tremendously   rich including our university system and and  that's that's the same here in australia um   and you know people get rich they they don't  mind looking the other way so yeah from a   defense perspective from an australian defense  perspective as i said before you know there   um there's not a lot we can do without the united  states we're a very very small defense force so we   have to fight alongside the the americans and or  the british and the japanese and the indians so   yeah it really unfortunately comes back  to we the world is still led by you guys   and that's meaningful perhaps you know i used  to live in america for a long time and perhaps   you don't realize that but you really are you are  the world leaders you do represent the free world   um and and other countries do follow you admire  you listen to you and they want to be led so i'm   putting it all on your shoulders nothing we can do  no that's not true we'll stand with you as we have   always have um that you can you can count on most  aussies to do that well yeah i think as as we've   talked about it really is a war of perception  and um you know at least i've known since when   i started china and censored in like 2012 uh i  did it because i didn't think most americans like   even were thinking about china and over the course  of this like nine ten years i've seen that change   tremendously and australia too like as you said  the the perception of china in in the in the   australian population has changed dramatically  and it's all because of china uncensored   also because me because of like you know  covid and all the bunch of other things i   think we say thank you chris okay well so  this is giving me hope that like you know   when the public's perception changes that can  drive a lot of change in you know the financial   sector stop them from you know like how long can  you know you talk about free trade with china   when it's like hey we're involved in slave  labor yeah that that's a really good point and   um it has been a little bit derm and gloom  for me so i i think you know i get it   we are in a kind of a tight spot down here in  australia um but i think to the points that   you chris and shelly have made i you know maybe it  could make a difference but we do yeah we have to   hold them accountable we have to stop funding the  chinese communist party we have to not say well   we'll take them to the wto when they break the  trade rules we just have to slap tariffs on them   like like the former trump administration did i  think was was fantastic because you take something   to the wto it's about as useful as the un you  know it's going to take years before anything   is done and they don't listen to it in any case  so perhaps with those if it was a coordinated   effort by a number of countries from the united  states australia the quad and if we could get the   europeans on side sounds like a really difficult  thing to do um but although you've seen to your   point too chris is that we've seen perceptions in  the uk change dramatically also so eu too you as   well okay um not as much well i'm thinking like  the trade deal that they were all gung-ho about   and then like they stopped that especially  after china sanctioned like eu officials   okay that's a fair point yeah yeah the the cai  yeah exactly so i think if we could if we could do   that in a coordinated fashion um perhaps it could  make a difference i hope it can make a difference   and and to your other point chris  you've been doing this since 2012.   thank you well done you've  been doing since the 80s   uh i know a lot of australians that that watch  your show um so you you're getting cut through and   um you know certainly from the my american friends  and and you know some of them um what you do is is   incredible and and we need this kind of voice we  need your voice out there and i know you probably   don't want to hear this but but you know a lot  of people love the humor you bring to such an   important topic um and and i think that's that's  cool too yeah we do actually want to hear that i'm just remembering when we were in  australia in 2018 and and uh i spoke at the   what was it the australian institute oh the  sydney institute the sydney institute that's right   yeah that was that was a very interesting  experience where some of the uh the higher-ups in   that organization were not entirely happy with  my message about china but in australia yeah   uh but everyone in the audience was very very  happy about it see oh well done oh thank you   um also another question i have  is you know china does have   still tremendous influence around the world um  i think covet is is a great example like how   they spun that to their advantage and i'm just  wondering you know china has has been pushing   this zero covid policy and i know australia has  something similar do you think there's any kind of   like sense that like the the australian government  was uh inspired by china's zero covet policy   i don't know i don't know if we even want to get  into all of this well i know matt does um yeah   look i think i think a lot of the world was dipped  um not just by china with regard to the virus   you know being made and distributed by china  but also looked at the way that they handled it   and they came out and said well this is the way  we're handling it by locking everything down and   um well i don't think we welded anybody into their  homes like the chinese did but um i think you know   a lot of health bureaucrats probably looked  at that and said oh well geez that seems to   work there um lock people up don't let them go  anywhere and you can't catch the virus right um   and so perhaps that's a massive over  simplification and and i'll get in trouble   from the chief health officer of new south wales  and um elsewhere but i don't know i i mean we'd   have to ask them but i mean well what could they  do to you put you under house arrest yeah yeah i   guess there's not much more they can do to me  um you are you are talking to us from lockdown   i am talking to you from lockdown yes uh we have  a new premier of the state of new south wales i'm   pleased to let you know so premiers in our states  are equivalent to your governors so our new   premier who was newly installed as of monday of  this week there's a man named dominic pereta and   he is uh accelerating the timetable to freedom  so he's a little bit different to his predecessor   he doesn't bring out the chief health  officer to provide daily updates   he's accelerating the time frame for children to  go back to school and for the society to open up   and for australians to be able to travel overseas  for australians to be able to come back um   so that's that's that's good news so soon  you'll be able to take kevin rudd back no thanks major i mean kevin rudd has had to kind  of like do a little bit of an about face where i   think he's realized at least in the us the whole  like absolutely re-engagement thing is not like   that's that's not a message that's like  politically okay right now so he's kind of   pivoted a little bit to if we just get rid of  xi jinping then you know that's he's the problem   oh he's on that now is he yeah you know that  that anonymously written the longer telegram   essentially made that argument that the west  should try to essentially depose xi jinping   so the communist party can get like a more  reasonable leader i think it's an open secret   that it was written by kevin rudd uh and then  he's come out more recently with some more stuff   that's kind of in the well know like china's  not group like a hundred percent good like that   kind of doing this thing about like oh  it's xi jinping's fault you know yeah so i   as we talked about before i think that's dangerous  um because you're just going to replace xi jinping   perhaps for a small amount of time with  someone who's going to bide their time and   and then hit us with an even bigger stick um and  the other thing as you probably well know because   kevin rudd lives in your state is that kevin  rudd says different things to different audiences   that whatever they want to hear so he'll say  things down in australia that support the   australian labor party that says well australia  should be re-engaging and have an engagement   policy with china and then he'll say something  completely different in the united states for the   engagement policy people what kind of like what  is their argument essentially like what kind of   china do they see us or australia engaging  with well they don't see china as a threat   so firstly they don't talk very much about hong  kong they don't talk at all about the uyghurs   they don't talk about taiwan um all you have to  do is and don't do this but google paul keating   um don't do that um because we can just forget  about him he's you know hopefully a non-entity   although he does have influence within the  australian labor party which is why it concerns   me but so they don't talk about those things  and then they say that china is actually not   an expansionary power that they don't want to  control anybody okay i'm sure they're the tibetans   and the uyghurs and the hong kong and taiwan would  disagree with them uh india yeah and southern   mongolia i mean the list does kind of go on yeah  exactly but so these are the things that they say   and i don't yeah it blows the mind right  because you are either on the payroll   or you are ideologically sympathetic with  communism and you think that that would be   that being a vassal state so they the other thing  that they say is that the united states is spent   you're done and that china is  going to there's nothing you can do   china is going to win they're going to be the  biggest economy they're going to be much bigger   than you americans we don't like americans in  any case um china is in our region we are a   south asia country we should be engaged with  our region you know bug of the americans um   you're done anyway and you're not going to come  and help us so we should put our lot in with china   so that makes absolutely no sense but that's  that's that's what's behind their thinking well   so this is kind of why i brought up uh some of  the covet policies because like my concern is that   there are plenty of people in in government and  big businessmen who see the authoritarian control   the chinese communist party has over society and  that is appealing to them they would like to have   that kind of power over their countries well i  mean you know the state in australia with the most   uh i would say restrictive lockdown policies uh  has been uh victoria and that is run by premier   daniel andrews who is incidentally the premier who  sort of independently signed a sort of belt and   road initiative deal with china in like this weird  way where the federal government was like you   can't do that and he's like yeah i'm gonna do it  anyway i mean like what's going on in in victoria   so victoria is is it's a little bit like  california in that it's become a uh almost a   one-party state um i think the liberal party would  love to be able to get back into state government   in victoria but i'm not sure that they  would be that successful i hope i'm wrong   i'm probably going to get a lot of people from  victoria and the liberal party being very angry   at me for saying that but you can see the same  thing even in queensland which is the state to the   north of me where you've had just consistent labor  governments with with perhaps a one-term liberal   government here and there and this is pretty much  the same in victoria you've had a lot of labor   governments and up until just very recently  premier daniel andrews polling has been good   like you know you get people internal that  are saying well he'd still be elected despite   as you point out matt that he unilaterally went  out and signed a deal with the chinese communists   on belton road initiative which generally states  don't do because it's signing treaties and doing   foreign trade deals is something that the federal  government did but we just didn't have anything   on on our books um on our legislation that  prevented it this this liberal government has now   put something on the books um and has cancelled  that deal and any other future deal and in fact   it's retrospective it can go back and look at  any deal that any local state government has made   that is not in the interests of australia and  it can be cancelled by the federal government   so so that's good but yeah so i think you're  right um that um yeah perhaps there have been some   some authoritarian sort sorts of people  like dan andrews that have looked at what   china has done and and copied it and done  it in victoria so victoria is now the mo   the world's most locked down city of melbourne  melbourne um and it's a shame yeah it's funny you   compare it to california because i always thought  of melbourne as kind of like the the san francisco   of australia you know you got the the trolleys and  it's like a nice friendly place but also like but   but victoria state being like california  with this governor in california our gov   i used to live in california  but now new york their governor   uh was you know had faced this recall  election for a number of things including his   covet hypocrisy including basically keeping  kids out of public schools but then sending   his own children to private schools which were  in session uh as well as other things but french   laundry the french laundry which which i'm i'm  just jealous because i always wanted to go there   uh but but then he got you know he won his  recall election he survived with like um   you know 60 something percent support uh which  to me was like mind-boggling right that like   like you you look at what he's done you think  wow like how do people still support that and yet   and yet they do so i think it's  a it's an apt comparison you made   yeah and that's right so i spent a lot of time  in san francisco and i did my undergraduate at um   university of california goldberg yes go bears  yes and and you you somehow ended up working for   the liberal party yeah san francisco berkeley and  conservative okay yeah yeah that must have been   interesting it was interesting so i was there in  the uh early to mid 90s and let's just say lucky   there were no smartphones around capturing  uh video and and stuff when i was there so   i was the you know i was the crazy australian  tearing stuff up um but so i wouldn't say you know   and i love san francisco um it's a beautiful city  and i look at just even since i left just how bad   san francisco has become it is just disgusting  you've got junkies on the street shooting up   you've got people defecating all over the place  in public in front of you um so i wouldn't say   melbourne is as bad as that um you need to  stop slandering my home city even though i i   totally agree with you ah are you from the bay  you're obviously from the back yeah i'm from   san francisco yeah oh wow okay and i did actually  briefly go to berkeley so we have that in common   ah ah awesome but yeah no san francisco i go back  all the time and it's it's you know as you say   but that's that's not necessarily coveted related  that's just no other factors that's that's other   factors and and perhaps when you have a one-party  system they can get away with whatever they like   and perhaps victoria is becoming and i hope it  doesn't become a one-party state at a state level   uh i worry that it that it perhaps is um and then  when you have a one-party state i mean china's a   one-party state what if australia's you know had  a one-party state but it was the liberal party   well i don't think that's good either i don't  think that's healthy i mean democracy you need   competition so people need choice and they  need freedom they need to be able to say   uh you're hopeless we're voting you out minority  voices yeah yeah and you know i mean you do that   and then hopefully you don't have interference  and you don't have too much interference in   the democratic process and people's voices and  votes are heard and they count and they matter   how victoria gets around that i don't know because  you know they do have a choice they can vote   whatever they like um but they seem to keep voting  the labor party back in so yeah it's it's got me   as as california keeps voting the democrats  becky except for schwarzenegger yeah   just proving that there's  really no accounting for taste well thank you very much for joining us today  uh this was this was great to catch up on the   situation in australia and the progress being  made combining the chinese communist party i   think it's progress let's end on a note  of hope i think so i know that might be   strange for all of us tell us  again how great our show is well you i mean you talked about a spray bottle  last time you started in 2012 when you know you   guys are the original you started in 2012 saying  stuff that wasn't popular just like pewdiepie so you know kudos to you um you  know one last thing i'd say is   that i forgot to mention is that you know we are  trying our best down here um this government's   doing some good things as i've mentioned in  the podcast my branch is actually going to be   hosting a taiwan mp i can't just give you his  name yet but he's obviously from the dpp great   and and working with guys like and girls like you  um yeah keeping up the fight really appreciate it   well good we're with you we love australia  we love your spirit and your meat pie yeah maybe someday we can go back  we're just running out of places to go   like in 2018 we went to australia and new zealand  we can't go to either of those places in 2019 we   went to hong kong several times we can't go  now we can't go back to the scarborough shoal   yeah i mean oh i saw that one yeah yeah wow that  was fun very dangerous i can't believe we did it   i can't i couldn't believe you did it either you  know it was actually kind of stupid who who even   organized that truth was your idea of that and  we were just like yeah okay this sounds good   and then in the when we were on the fishing  boat i was like this may have been a bad idea   it's a little blaze but again i made it back a lot  and for the record i put the china uncensored flag   on the scarborough shoal so i own that territory  period perception is reality perception is reality   well i mean i just hope it doesn't keep going  because the last place we went to was taiwan   are we cursed well if i were you guys i wouldn't  even fly anywhere near china but i would stay so   far away i'd say you're probably on a list or two  i actually don't think they really care about us   don't say that shelling is that is that is  that wounding it's xi jinping thinks about   me every day okay someday you'll get your  interview someday i'll get that interesting well thanks for the the advice uh that's  terrifying that's the thing i'll just   move to the middle of the united states as far  away from china as possible where should people   go if they want to hear more for you uh they  shouldn't i don't i you're not very good at this   no i'm not uh well yeah i mean i don't have a  website or uh anything so i mean i'm a member   of the liberal party i chair uh defence mat sec  policy you don't even have a twitter oh yeah i   am on twitter yeah lincoln parker at lincoln  parker five sorry i i didn't do that very well   that's okay a link uh lincoln parker not lincoln  park yes yes that that name has dogged me for   for so long and um i've been doing uh i've  been on sky news uh a little bit recently   so they they put you on and you're listening  to the producers before you actually   you know the host comes on and they're just  ripping into me about my name and they're yeah i'm sorry we missed her a  chance yeah well you could have yeah   so um and then of course everyone  in australia spells it l-i-n-k-e-n   let's make sure we spell it right we have a  president with that name we'll be fine that's true all right well thank you uh we'll put uh uh  your twitter account below so expect big follows   thanks guys really appreciate it  love what you do thank you thank you you know i was thinking a lot about what  lincoln said about how australia really still   looks to the us to be the leader like to  you know as the to be the global superpower   um and i was thinking about how there's been  discomfort right in the us domestically about   the idea with the idea that the us or why like  we we shouldn't be a superpower or like we're   not the police of the world why do we need  a superpower right yeah and i can understand   some of that with like you know things that  happened in iraq and afghanistan but like   if you know we are obviously going into like a  new cold war with the chinese communist party   believing you know fro

2021-10-18

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