Reflecting on the 75th Anniversary of Hiroshima
Welcome back everyone, we didn't want to let this day pass. Uh before reflecting, on the 75th, anniversary. Of the tragedy, at hiroshima. If you've. Never read john hersey's, 1946. Essay. He interviewed, survivors. Just uh in the year following. The bombing. It's an extraordinary. Piece it does help us to frame and put into, some perspective. The enormity, of what happened on august 6. 1945. At hiroshima, on august 9. 1945. At nagasaki. I think the backdrop to today's panel is that we have a crisis, in arms control, nuclear, arms control, today. We may well be in the most dangerous, period. For instability. Among the nuclear weapons powers of any time since the 1960s. The intermediate, nuclear forces, treaty lapsed. The new start treaty, is in danger. The hypersonic. Development of hypersonic. Weapons. Has destabilized. The effort to balance. And limit. Conflict, between nations and of course the united states and russia, the united states and china. Are at their lowest points of trust. In a half century. In both cases. Vice president biden said today. In a statement. That we need to recommit, to our ultimate goal, a world free from the threat of nuclear weapons he came out, for the extension, of new start. President trump, has been talking about the need to bring china. Into. Negotiations. With the united states and russia because china is completely, unconstrained. We have two. People here who know a lot about this subject. Governor, jerry brown. Former governor of california. And rachel bronson, the ceo, and president of the bulletin, of the atomic, scientist, governor brown. Has become the executive, chairman. Of the bulletin, of the of the, atomic, scientists. I met governor brown a couple of years back. At a um. A birthday, celebration. For secretary, of defense bill perry at stanford, university, and, i think it's ironic, in the sense that, bill perry has become one of the leading advocates. For nuclear, zero, for the campaign, to end nuclear weapons, for all time, and he was even tweeting about that, this morning. So we're looking forward to a good conversation. Between governor, jerry brown. And rachel bronson. Of the bulletin. Of the atomic, scientists. Welcome, to the aspen, stage. Thank you. Nick thank you so much for that introduction, and it's really an honor to be here. With your group today. Um, this is a auspicious. Anniversary. Um. And. One that i'm so glad that you're you're taking some time to. Recognize. So let me start. For the audience, maybe, in in situating. This conversation, a little bit and. With a question, to, governor brown. Um. Governor brown you're known, as a long, a long-serving, california, governor. But your interest in nuclear, issues, is not so well known. So maybe we can start our conversation, can you explain how you became, interested, in the nuclear. Threat and, why you remain so passionate about it today. Well, i don't want to go back to my ancient history. Uh but i was in the jesuit, seminary. This was before, uh vatican, 2, uh, 19. I think, 58. Maybe. Uh maybe a little later. Somewhere in that. Area. And khrushchev, came to california, my father was, actually less than 59.. Khrushchev, was governor. There was also a debate between linus pauling. And. And. Teller, uh the teller, uh, debate with pauling about nuclear, fallout.
And Nuclear, testing, so those were the things that were going on then and i got very interested in it, jumping forward a bit i was governor of california, during the nuclear, freeze movement, and the nuclear, freeze. Uh proposition. To freeze nuclear, weapons. Uh, was put on the california, ballot, and it barely, passed, something that surprised me i thought it would do better. But it did pass and, the result was i. Was instructed, by the people of california. To write a letter both to the president, of the united states ronald reagan, and to the um. Leader. Of the soviet union which i did, and ever since then, i have been worried. About this growth. Of, nuclear, weaponry. And in fact i wrote an article once called nuclear, addiction. In the answer to casper, weinberger's. Uh build-up, with ronald reagan, uh there, when reagan was first elected in the 80s. And so i, i've been concerned. That the relationship. Between. Uh the soviet, union and the united states, is an addictive. Uh relationship. That the more one does, the more the other does, and it constantly. Um. Escalates, tit for tat. With no, ending in sight, and so my interest, has always been, can we come, to an understanding. Uh with the other nuclear, power, of major nuclear power, now russia. And do so and we, seem to be going in the exact, opposite direction. Uh my. Real. Accelerated. Interest, started with bill perry five years ago when i thought, we were just vilifying. Putin in russia, and not talking about the key issues, and ever since. That, time five years ago things have gone downhill. First under obama, and now under trump, so i think we're not in a good state. And i think it's also well to remember. After nick burns told us to think about john hershey's book. On hirashuma. That in the early days of the bombing, that the united states government. Censored. Any information. About the after effects, of the bomb. And i think that, desire. To to blind ourselves. To the. Devastating. Horror, of the nuclear, weapon. Continues. And i think it continues, because. Thinking, of the apocalypse. Is not congenial.
It's Very hard to imagine. What isn't happening. But what could happen. It's a great leap, but unless we face. Uh the power. That humankind. Has now, we're not going to take the steps needed, and those steps are pretty clear. Dialogue, with russia. Work with the other nuclear, powers, and we can't spend all our time, finding. All the things bad about putin, because you know in america. We seem to have a lot of things, bad with ourselves, black lives matter. Uh the poor handling of the kovid. And all sorts of other things, not even not i don't have to list the vietnam war and the iraq war, things that i thought were big mistakes. So i think the uh the big challenge here, is to yes, be honest, about, uh russia and putin, but be honest about ourselves. And the predicament, we're in, and start having that uh deep dialogue. At all levels not just the president. But uh the intelligence, the military. Uh the diplomatic, corps, and then citizen, diplomacy. As well, we're not doing that, at anywhere, near the level. That the, uh, the problem, and the challenge, of nuclear, blunder, represents. Uh for america. Uh for russia, and for the people of the whole world. Great thank you you've actually brought up, uh, a number of really important issues i know at the bulletin, one of the. Ways you're thinking you'd mention. Cobit, and and. Social unrest. Racial unrest all of that that, black lives matter. What i think is clear is our investments, that we're making right now. Um, in our security. Aren't keeping. Uh, our citizens, safe. We're. All speaking, from our home right now. Uh. While at the same time. Uh. The administration. Is about to embark on a 1.7. Trillion. Dollar, investment, in nuclear, weapons, over the next 30 years. To refashion. Our entire, arsenal, into, what some are calling an arsenal 2.0. So we're making huge investments, in what i see as 20th, century threats rather than 21st, century threats which were, we're all all dealing with right now. And one of the things that you've been. Really, um. Targeted, on in our conversations. As well as in your public speaking, is, the relationship. Between the united, states and russia and you and i with secretary, perry, and, sam nunn were, on the hill, last year, um talking about kind of, russia policies. In the last day or two, you. And, many others signed on to a very important, open letter. Uh. With fiona, hill, and thomas pickering, and rose gotta mueller.
About. A, path forward, with the russians. Um. It's in politico.com. The audience can go find it can you talk about, your concern, about, u.s russia relations. And. Why it was so important for you to sign that open. Letter. Let's see i think the governor, just froze. Let's get right there. Yeah you're back on, yeah, sorry we're out here in the country. Uh internet is not, stable. So, rachel let me just jump right in there. About. The recent, letter. By a very wide variety, of american, leaders. To. Calling. For renewed, dialogue. With russia and i think the key. Uh the key, point of that letter. Is, uh, the part about, uh, serious. Dialogue. Uh addressing. The. Deeper. Uh. Causes. Of our fear, and hostility, with russia, we've got to dig in, uh, to what's causing. Uh this breakdown. Which is now, uh as bad as it's ever been, and some people think, maybe even worse. Uh, so, that. That's something that i think, is very hard to do washington. Loves to bash. Putin. And i think we ought to say okay, whatever, you want to say about russia and their misbehavior. And leaving aside. Are different, uh but very real misbehaviors. We still have this threat. Of nuclear annihilation. Nuclear. Apocalypse. And, you mentioned about. The virus. The virus. Some people expected, you know the experts, but most people, were caught by surprise. The virus, has some elements, about the nuclear, danger, one, it surprised, america. B, it hit china. And hit. Russia, in america. And all the other countries. So, it's a mutual. Threat, and most, of the uh languaging. Most of the perspectives. That are publicly, expressed. About. Russia. And about the united states, is about, our security, interest. Versus. Their. Problem. But there's another, category. Of threat, that isn't just, a nationalistic. It's, russia, america, zero sum, no there are mutual, threats. And there are therefore. Mutual, interests, the virus, is a mutual, threat, the danger, of a nuclear. Mistake, or accident. Very real. Is a mutual, threat. Climate, change, is a mutual, threat. Having a mutual, threat. Creates, mutual, vulnerability. Therefore, we have something, we can share. That is not zero. Sum, but we can work on together, to me, what is required. Uh, is not the. Idealism, uh the utopianism. That's gonna bring, american democracy, everywhere, but a realism. A planetary. Realism. That, recognizes. That, horror, can be unleashed. By a virus. By climate change, or by a nuclear. Accident. And, we know if we think about it these nuclear, weapons. Are held in check, by software. By human beings. That, check. Holding them from going off. Has failed, well they didn't fail, they didn't go off, but there was a signal, that led people to believe. That a, nuclear response, was called for, so we know. That nuclear, accident or mistake, is possible. The only way we can. Prevent, that, is, deeper. Working, and agreements. Uh with russia, and then with the other nuclear, powers, in the world, and we're not, doing that, most of what we do, is. Get upset. When putin. Does his hacking, or his people, get into our uh, emails. Uh when he does stuff in in um, in ukraine, or syria, or libya, okay, bad bad bad, but, we gotta, be able to chew gum, and jump rope, something people said general ford couldn't do although we did a pretty good job in many respects. We've got to talk. At every, level. Now, this is not just, republican. Democrat. Uh president obama, uh, pulled back, our, diplomats. Beca to punish. Russia, but we've got to get off, the punishing.
In The form of stopping, to talk, we need, not only talk, we need, deep, understanding. And i'd say the first step, in understanding. Is humility. And there's a tremendous. Arrogance, of power. A, ethnocentrism. That uh blinds, us. Just like. The greek. Traditions. Talked about, hubris. And that tragic. Uh flaw or blind spot, we've got to see, our predicament. With, clarity. With polar, lucidity. Where, are we in the world, and where we are, is facing. Not just the dangers. Of an aggressive. Uh russia, or china which are very real, we're facing the danger. Of uh apocalyptic. Outcomes. Like. The virus. Uh which is now not apocalyptic. But it's pretty bad and, uh planetary. But. The the weapon. Uh, mistakes, that can be made and the climate change, and that ought to be the occasion. For, uh. Mutual. Engagement. But it isn't, the virus, instead of. Getting. Russians, and chinese, and americans. Closer together. Has been an occasion. For more. Name calling. And more, as, president, trump says, the china virus. Well we don't look at the america. American. Virus. Informationally. Which has. Given out the, false information. On the nature of the virus so all i'm saying is humility. Uh clarity. Uh honesty, about where we are where they are, not not utopian. Not naive. Not blind. Uh but, facing. The predicament. And we are facing. The edge of the apocalypse. Right now that's why the bullet of the atomic scientists. Their scientific, committee, and the whole board. Moved the doomsday, clock. 20 seconds, closer. To, the end. The big, nuclear, exchange. Wake up people. And we're not awake, there's, uh, it's, sleepwalking. In my opinion, just like before. 1914. People. Feel. Comfortable. Well we have to get, uncomfortable. Because. We. Humankind. Has created this power, and this power that can do so much, good, uh also has the power, to destroy, i'm not just talking about nuclear, i'm talking about the full range. Of technologies. Uh, uh quantitative. Quantitative, computing, and uh artificial, intelligence. And uh bio, bioengineering. And all the different, uh techniques. That human beings have invented. All these, represent. The possibility. Of good, or of horror. And the only way we can handle it if we can, which is not, completely, clear to me is to start. The conversation. Serious. And we don't we don't have that we're really getting caught, in a little. Silo. Of uh, of excitement. Uh getting off on our own, uh. Bad bad the other guy, and it, does remind me of the, gospel, saying, don't. Forget the, big, spot in your own eye while you look at a tiny speck, in the other. That was good. Advice, two thousand years ago, it's damn good advice, right today. Thank you it was really, striking. Um, when when we were. In dc, talking about this about how complicated. Creating the strategic, dialogue. Creating a strategic, dialogue, with the russians, would be. Um. For the, republicans. They're vulnerable. Because, they, they're. Because of the russian hacking, and everything we've heard about and. Their role in our elections, and the. Democrats. Uh, it's it's a juicy target for them to go after and they themselves, would feel uncomfortable. About perhaps. Engaging, with the russians now do you have any. Uh thoughts on that about even if if uh. The strategic. Dialogue, was. Desirable. How. Politically, we get there how do we create that space. The way we treat diplomacy. Is like it's a gift rather than a necessity, but i love your thoughts on that well my my thought is, it goes back, uh.
To Pride. Versus humility. Today. Uh, whites, and others. Uh whites the prophets, of war brevard county are being asked, to, reflect. On privilege. On what's happened. To african americans. Over the, last 200 years, in america, and what's still happening. So. We have flaws. We're not a, uh. A perfect, society. This is not the new jerusalem. That the fight with the puritans, might have thought. And, we're in this world. Where we we, seem to be blind. We we focus on, all the evil, it's out there, but you know if we would just reflect, on the fact that the tonkin, gulf resolution. Uh was, highly disordered, misrepresented. And that was the basis of our bombing, and two million people were killed in a in what, a lot of people think although not all a civil war, uh we had richard nixon tell us he had a secret plan that was an absolute, lie. We had, uh george bush tell us, uh, you know we have there's all these weapons of mass destruction. Even though there was great question about the intelligence. And then we had this terrible. Uh, uh event, uh in iraq we killed these people and then we had isis, and hundreds of thousands of people, have died, and we could take the libya, decapitation. Of uh, of uh qaddafi. So, i don't want to say. America, bad, i want to say america, human. And i want to say, russia. Is also human. Along with all their other bads. We've got to get off, of this. Deeply. Moralistic. Not moral, moralistic. Distortion. Of our perception. Of the world. And the, accurate, reception. The, polar. Lucid. Uh. Reality, that we ought to be able to see, is there's great danger. And the only way out of the danger. Is. Dialogue, it's. Meeting. On a plane of equality, because we're all equally, vulnerable. To the virus. To the bomb. Uh to climate change, and we have to sit down and start talking. Nixon went to china, mao. Is responsible, for tens of millions of deaths, and they still over there, clinking, their champagne, glasses, now there are people today who said they were.
Beguiled. But nevertheless. That was a, move. That richard, nixon, was able to, make, all right. And, uh. The same thing nixon. Went to. The kremlin. He stayed overnight, at the kremlin with his wife, in kissinger. That would be unthinkable. If if trump and his wife went over there the kremlin spent the night with putin. Uh, it would be crazy, but nixon, did it, he got to dayton. And then detont, blew up and we had the massive, massive, nuclear buildup, and then reagan. Sat down, with gorbachev. And said a nuclear, war. Can never be won, and must never be fought, so now we're in the third round. Of, the nuclear, buildup, we ought to look back at the two, previous, rounds, where, the us, and the soviet union. Were able. To come, to an agreement, we have to do that again. And the cheap political, shots, that the democrats, make on trump. Are not helpful. And trump's. Kind of unstable. Wild behavior is not helpful either, so we need, whoever. Are left. Of the wise, men and women, in this country. They are desperately, needed, to come forward, and i think, thomas graham and pickering, and rose got miller. And. Have. Begun that with their open letter which i don't think will be published, i don't know that the major papers. Give a damn, and i would single them out washington, post new york times, wall street journal, that, the reporting. Is, infinitesimal. Compared. To what is needed, to wake us up and to give us the knowledge and understanding. Of where we are so, i would say. Plenty of work to do, on all sides. Regardless, of party, regardless, of country, humankind. To make it, is going to have to make, a, real. Turn here, and that turn does start, with, humility. And clarity, of perception. Because. The doors of our perception. Are very, closed. And very. Cloudy, and obscured. So we're starting to come to the end of our time and i know this is something, very much on your mind. And we talked a bit about. Climate change and the pandemic, but. Certainly compared to those two the danger of nuclear weapons really hasn't, registered. As a certainly a campaign, issue or as you were saying, in the press. Um and yet, there's a great piece in the new york review of books by jessica matthews. Um. Talking about the threat just recently, our doomsday, clock is at 100 seconds to midnight.
Generating, A global conversation, about these issues but. Why why doesn't it receive more attention, it did, um. 40 years ago but what, why isn't it what can be, done to change that. Well. I'd say. Uh, the following, number one. Uh, just like the people, on the titanic. Uh were drinking. Some of them they were supposedly, within their, finest, outfits. Uh the music was playing. They didn't see it, it was inconceivable. In fact some people said, that the titanic. Was built so well could never sink. Well it did sink, and, thousands, died, all right we're on kind of a titanic. Very hard to imagine, the unimaginable. Thinking, the unthinkable. Uh we don't like that's hard, it's called apocalyptic. Thinking. And if you engage, in it people say you're a nut case a nut job, well, we have to be able to see, the power. That humankind. Has now. Marshaled. Through its science and technology. So, number one be able to entertain, the possibility. Of these, horrors. That are not on. But they're all but they could be, just by pushing a couple of buttons, all right that's number one uh, number two there's inertia. Uh things. Uh at rest tend to stay at rest, things in a certain motion, tend to keep that motion, the the, uh, activity, in congress, by both democrats, and republicans. With a few exceptions. Is just, moving ahead. Uh with the trillion dollar modernization. Program. Uh moving along, with a 740. Billion dollar military, budget, with the, 700, bases all over the world all the stuff we're doing, well we have to. Take a pause. And reflect, on, uh. Where are we. What's counterproductive. What's dangerous. And we don't we don't like to do that and number three, which is maybe the elephant in the room, uh there is, a, a group. Of human beings, that are part of the arms, industry. General dynamics. Boeing. Uh, mcdonald. Uh. Mcdonald, douglas has now, merged with others, as a good california, company, but they're, they're making money. Billions. And they, they, profit. They have a conflict, of interest. On trying to. End the arms race, because they're making money, so don't, ever, mistake, the money, the money that goes into the think tanks to keep them going, the money that goes to congressional, campaigns. The money that goes to lobbyists. Uh the money. Follow, the money, as was said in. Watergate. So that's real, i i don't think it's polite. I don't think many people at the aspen, incident, are ever going to talk about that, but, it's, real folks. Along with, the inertia. Along with, the uh. Uh, unthinkable. Uh i think herman klein. Wrote a book called thinking. About the unthinkable. While he was talking about having a nuclear, war, but it's still, a big unthinkable. Thought, of how to prevent a nuclear, war, or even to think it's even possible. And i would say, uh because i'm not a scientist. But i've spent, my entire, life, around politicians. And i would say for the most part, that complacency. Is pervasive. It is deep. And from my perspective. Shocking. And how we. Wake, awaken, ourselves. From this, deep, pervasive, complacency. Is anyone's, guess. But i think the fact that we're here, others are talking about it uh. You mentioned an article the bulletin of atomic scientists.
Rather The, new york review of books. Good. But, it's not the front page, of the major papers, or the local papers, so, we have a lot. Of work, and as a former. Jesuit, seminarian. I would almost call it missionary. Work, we have to. Do the lord's, work. To wake people up, and you know the ears are closed, the eyes. Are covered, we've got to open up the ears and the eyes. Where, are we folks, and now, what, practically. Realistically. With security, and mind, do, i think we can do a hell of a lot and there are many people. In washington. Who want to do, the right thing, and know what to do, we just got to give them the support, and the boost, i hope all you aspen. Folks who are watching. Uh. Just you don't have to agree with me but for a moment, just, assume, just imagine. Maybe what i'm saying. Has, a. Real element of truth, and if it does, then, what can you and what can we all do about it i think we can do a lot. Thank you, we're, we've come to, uh or coming to the end of our time and before i i flip it back to, um. Uh nick burns to to close us out, um i did just want to. Focus, us again on the 75th, anniversary. And. Maybe how to think about it a little bit what's the takeaway and there's so many. Uh takeaways, but one in particular. Nick started with a reference, to, um. Uh john hersey's, book. And. I'm reading leslie bloom's book right now on fallout, which, which goes through. The hercy's. Writing. Expose. But what's clear is hersey believed that it was. Actually his expose, and it was, the the closeness, that we had to hiroshima, nagasaki. That. Galvanized. The globe, to try to make sure nothing like that ever happened, again. 75. Years. On. We're far from that we've. You know where, the the survivors. Are, uh, just a few of them left our, parents and grandparents, who could tell us about what it was like at that time are gone. And so, the tools, in many ways that we relied, on, to keep focused, on this issue. Are, um, are. Have been spent, are behind us. And so, we, as, uh as a community, really need to think about what's gonna.
Motivate, Us, to, stay engaged. On on this issue because. Expert, after expert, is, telling us from everything, they know, it is a very, very dangerous, time. And we don't have the arms control, tools. We're investing. Very heavily. It is a it's very reminiscent. Of the earliest, days, of the 50s and 60s. Rachel. Just injected, i see we only got a minute left, uh. Look you mentioned. Uh, john hershey's, book, so did nick burns. What, was the big thing about that book, number one the new yorker, broke the story. Uh. They had to, because it wasn't being being covered up by the united states government, they, they broke the story what's the story, it was the human. Suffering. We have to imagine. What these bombs do, all this. Security. Interest. Uh. Talk. Is very, dehumanized. It's not, uh opening up our, imagination. To the truth, to the reality, where we are, and that book, yes we read that book, think about, uh those. Six human beings, and what happened in their stories. This is about the story, of people whose flesh. Is melted, whose bodies, are ripped apart. By the. Shrapnel, or the radiation. We've got to meditate, and reflect, on that, anything, less, won't get us out of the problem this is not about, some rand, corporation. Analysis. Of cost benefit. Or the latest, in the, uh, security, interest. Uh rhetoric. This is about, the the truth, the fact of where we are, and we're, sharing, it this is about planetary. Realism. We are in the same. Boat, with russia, and china, and the rest of the world, and we have to see what that boat, is, where is it and what do we do about it it's a it's an exercise. Required. Of imagination. Of truth-telling. And deep humility. If we could follow those, that path. Uh we have a chance. At pulling back from the brink. While there's still. Time. Great thank you, nick i think it's back to you now. Well it is and um if you could stay with me for a minute i'm i'm going to ask um the aspen's, people people to activate, my video, please. Uh but you can hear me i just want to thank. Governor jerry brown. And rachel bronson. This is a somber, day it should be for everybody, around the world thinking about, what happened. There we go at hiroshima. 75, years ago today and then nagasaki. Uh governor brown maybe one last question to you. I was a career diplomat. For a long time and. As recently, as, 10 years ago. People, a lot of national security, experts would have laughed at someone if they said we should abolish, nuclear, weapons. But when sam nunn and bill perry, and george schultz, and jerry brown, rachel bronson. And others get on board. Then you have a possibility, of making that a mainstream, view, and reaching out to a broader. Cycle of people. And even president obama i thought, made a departure, of all american, presidents talking about that as the ultimate, goal. He said maybe not in his lifetime. Is this achievable. Do you think um you've. Governor, is it achievable, in our lifetime, or our kids lifetime. Well. I don't know, i have no idea. I do know by the way i had one more name henry kissinger. Signed the the letter with the other people you mentioned. Um. Look i think. This nuclear, threat. Like climate will take, you know decades, longer. And maybe pandemics, that become more and more virulent. Humankind. Has to assess. And the leaders, of some of whom you mentioned, have to assess, the danger. I don't believe. And i've talked to the leaders in washington. I mean all these people all the presidents i've talked to not about this always, but my impression. Is that people. Don't, really, sense. The danger. And if you sense the danger. I believe we do more, i think ronald reagan. Sends the danger in gorbachev. When they said a nuclear war, must never be fought it can never be won that's not being said by president trump, it's not the official, policy, of the united states. Uh, i i don't know whether it's the official policy, of russia or china, we have to get down to the basics. And the basics, is, that humankind. Could, destroy, itself, extinction. Is possible. I know that's so big it's beyond a nice. Living it's just so. Foreign, and wild. But we have to. Face facts. And the power. That humankind. Has, is so great, we have to at least, think about it and if we think about it, we'll find ways. Of reducing, we can live it on the planet, we can live together. Uh and we got some big difference between the communist party of china, and the us, nothing could be more different that's even more different than, in putin's russia, and, trump's america.
But, There are bases. For common interest, we have to state them we have to talk about them we aren't, there's no conversation. Like we're having, now, in washington. That's being publicly, reported. Uh by the washington, post and the new york times, i don't want to call them out or the major networks, we have to devote, some time to something that is not, news, of the day. The end of the world, is not news of the day, but it's real it's possible. And damn it we ought to start talking about it we talk about it we'll find a way. Forward. To abolish, nuclear weapons, or at least get get damn close. Governor, thank you, rachel, thank you, one of the most important books i've read this past year is. Yuval, noah harari's. 21, lessons for the 21st, century he's the israeli, historian, philosopher, and, he says. When he reflects, on humanity, in the next decade or two he thinks we've got. Three great existential, challenges, one is climate change, one is nuclear, weapons. And the possibility, of nuclear war and the other is the. The integration, of ai, and biotech. And the unknowable, when that happens, and, that that got my attention. Um, we wanted to have this conversation, today. People need to hear your views, and people need to. Understand, the position of the, bulletin of the atomic scientist, thanks to you governor, thanks to you rachel. Hey nick. Nick, the author you just mentioned. Has a, page on, humility. On humility. What do we got to start. It does, and you and i were both. Jesuit, trained. And we we learned long ago as young kids that humility, is a virtue. We got to start there. Got to start with humility. Thank you governor. Thank you rachel thanks for being with us we really appreciate, it thank you.