Post and Beyond Lithium-Ion Materials and Cells for Electrochemical Energy Storage
Okay. Yeah let's get started good. Afternoon coming. To. Another tech. Talk of the quantum, AI speaker. Serious. And, it's. Actually perfect timing because today. We officially. Kicked off a collaboration, between, Daimler. And Google, to. Explore. The, use of, near-term. Quantum, processors, to do. Quantum. Simulations, for chemistry. And materials, research problems, as they, pertain, for example, to developing. New. Batteries. For electric cars and, we. Have here as a guest today andreas. Hinton, ah who, is, the. Specialist. At Daimler. Looking. Over the area of electro, chemistry. Actually. Andreas. Is a MD, a medical, doctor and a chemist. Polymath. And he. Got his degrees. From prestigious. Universities, he got this PhD. From. ETH Zurich and 2010. If I got this right and then who. Did a postdoc, at MIT. But. Since. 2011. He, is with Daimler, and I, have to confess. Everything I know about, batteries. I learned from Andreas and when I heard. Him present about, it I thought batteries, is of course such a crucial. Element. In many, technical. Artifacts, that I thought he, should spread his knowledge and many people at Google, would probably be interested to learn a little bit more where, battery. Technology, stands and where it's going to go in the future and yeah. Looking forward to hearing, more from you Andreas. Thank. You very much hard much for giving me the opportunity welcome. You to this post and Beyond lithium-ion, inside. We. Will have different levels of you, know of an inside one will be more close to what's. The current state of lithium-ion. And of course because that will be one of the potential use cases for, new. Computer-based. Simulation. As well as computer based chemistry a little bit more than more research, related, past and beyond lithium ah in part but. Beforehand, before I dig in the field of chemistry and physics I would like to use the opportunity just to quickly introduce what the Daimler and in with the main most known brand mercedes-benz, is doing what, on the worldwide most of our research related. To electrochemistry, happens, in the US and we're, another representative, Tim McGuire here from mercedes-benz, research, & development. In North America, you. Might see that the californian, based research send us widely. Contributed. To the field of R&D locations, within Daimler, nevertheless, the headquarters. Are in Germany, where, mercedes-benz.
As A brand as a core brand is located. The. Range of and the importance, of batteries, in general mode you will all have one in your cell phones as well in your computers, but, can be underlined but when you think of the high volumes, as well of the. Need of high energy densities. And in particular the safety and life term when you think of the whole product range of work of a comic or a vehicle, related. To a company, it ranges, from small passenger, cars to large trucks, reaches. The sub brands like freight line or Western store in the US as well as maybe the best, known ambassador, of the u.s. worldwide that Thomas builds school buses the yellow school buses because only school buses in the US are yellow and the, rest of the world there have different colors are not yet yes well known as what, Thomas built buses designed many, decades ago and one. Subtopic. Will be on the upcoming talk, the fuel cell because, that is a different, application of, electrochemistry. You might understand, it is a hydrogen. Battery because. The processes, that happen in general are related, to electrochemistry. And, it doesn't matter for, for example for computational, related, chemistry, whether we do computational, Relic Emmis tree for, catalysts, that convert, the gas into energy or whether it's a liquid or solid, state from, the computational, perspective it doesn't matter what is converted, which type of chemistry into, electricity, what. Whether it's gas or whether it's a kind of a liquid or solid that we will see on the upcoming slide, just, to give your structure, of this talk as as, promised to you it will have different levels, there will be a core, level of chemistry, because that's the main, main focus of my fundamental. Research or entity, I have in Germany as well as in the collaborations, in the u.s. boo laughs of look on the, latest. Developments. Of solid-state batteries, it's a hot topic I know nevertheless, it's a little bit far down the road and I, would like to use the motivation, of an insight in raw materials because, that is related to one, of the driving forces for the company as well as for me because, this, is related to ethics as well as to sustainability, and once, we link electro, mobility and, electrochemistry, in batteries in general with the label of Korean chemistry, then we need to take care of ethics, as well as sustainability.
All. Those micro, trends, in in batteries actually can be some term more in a graphic. Way that's, the same both for laptop computers, or cell, phones but as well as for any kind of vehicle or aircraft application. It's typical capacity, because that is the time. You can operate, any kind of battery, for example the lifetime of you during. The day of yourself on your computer or the driving range of a potential, vehicle safety. Needs to be very high of course you don't want to have a fire neither, in your trousers, nor in your home and especially not in your garage or on the road and fast, charge and power of course in complications, having, a lot of power is helpful, and nice to have but, there's always a minimum, requirement in terms of quick charging in the field since, youth of, us don't have time for to, wait for hours to refill, the car or refill, another kind of application, and as I had pointed out sustainability. For me personally is the most important driving force because, if you don't take care of that then we will lose most of the other promised. Advantages. Of any kind of electrochemistry. If. We have a look on the right side you, will see the trans what it means in terms of translation, to chemistry this is our notes as well as the electrolytes, and cathodes, and if you think back to school or college than any, kind of battery and even the lead acid better battery, in your car nowadays consists. Of an anode it's, one of the electrodes as well as a cathode that's the opposite side and in, between there, typically is an electrolyte, that can be water and acid base like and lettuce it batteries can, be bare it can be organic. Flammable. Liquid that's a on state-of-the-art, lithium-ion. And in. The future we're hoping that we have new developments in terms of solid-state developments. Typically. A polymer, layer or, in ultimate. Solution. Kind, of a Khurram akin to layer that is the most stable but, the most complicated solution. But. Just have a look at the current state of the art that's a comparison of cell chemistry's, most, of you might not be a. Might. Not know this kind of war of the presentations it's by explain, you the axis on the, Left axis you always see the power on what. And part. On the x-axis you see the energy on the y axis you see the power all this related to the volume, because, in almost any applications. In, the, cell phone in the computer in the car as well and aircraft volume, matters for. The car volume, is the most crucial powered. Actually because there's almost no volume left to put a battery and without. Having, a compromise, for all the passengers. This. So-called volumetric. Gravimetric, energy density. Is the important. Field with. Which we differentiate any kind of chemistry's and what you can see from lithium ion it more or less it's a pretty large cloud. Fulfilling, most of the requirements, we are looking at and if we have a look to the near. Future that is about MIT in the mid of the 20s, there, are even, more. Energy, dense, chemistry. Are coming, that is what you might know from newspapers. And and other article, research, articles, that's in particular the solid-state chemistry where. The liquid electrolyte will, be realized petrol Kurama class increasing. The energy density and, increasing. Lifetime, nevertheless, the, maturity, of those applications, and you will see that later on is not, yet there where we need to have it for. The upcoming, chemistry's. We are working on that's in the end of the 20s, these are the more sustainable chemistry's. Where, we try to replace, for example all the toxic materials, that we still need in the batteries nowadays, for, example cobalt. And nickel by. Sulfur. Could, be air as well could be oxygen, nevertheless, most, likely, it will be something like sulfur, because it's an abundant, and extremely, cheap material, and will be along in the, yes that before we reach the goal adding. Something like oxygen. Or even, the full organic, batteries the organic, battery built in the last part of my talk because.
Then We get really to the post lithium-ion, state where we get rid. Of any kind of metal ion then it's fully organic fully, recyclable, it's. More almost a compostable battery, it's not fully compostable but it's made, of organic materials. You. Can do this part. The. Yeah that's a good question because gasoline and fuel cell have one difference to the battery in the battery you have the tank, or the reservoir, as well as the converter combined, in the same box once you have a lot of energy you typically, get the power more. Or less because it's just there in, gasoline. You have the reservoir, with the gasoline but, the engine the combustion engine is the converter so, you can scale the energy that's the, gallons. Of gasoline, independent. Of the power output provided. You have hundreds. Of gallons but the to sell in the engine you won't have a lot of fun but have less fun for a long while if, you use a you, know eight, cell in the turbo engine maybe you have more fun but just for a short time because, it converts. The gasoline, within a short time to, much more power that's a beauty actually of the concepts, where you can scale reservoir. And convert a lag and the combustion and all the fuel cell independent. And scale it to their need of the application, in the. World of batteries we really need to take care of those cloud cloud. Curves. Actually or, the cloud space because we need to take care we can have extremely, high energy, dense materials. But almost no power and then, it becomes feasible by you can add power for example a truck based, on those chemistry, because you need a minimum of power actually for example to to, operate. A cell phone to operate the CPU and a computer, or to operate a car to, drive it uphill. That's. Actually, one of the killer reasons why we cannot use this beautiful right, field for for vehicle. Applications, or. In. Other words not yet. I do, the same actually for the power output I will dig in the field a little bit later on typically, you see that most of those curves. Or spaces, in in those and this diagram doesn't have, a huge, field where they meet each other overlap, each other there are different types of chemistry with different, types of strengths, related, to power or related, to weight. Or related, to volume there's, not a kind of a one-size-fits-all. Solution in the field of batteries, for example. The current state of the, lithium ion has, a reasonable. Range in terms of power and energy compared. To weight but. It's, too heavy for example, to operate, an aircraft it's, too heavy to operate, a truck because it will consume, about a 1/5, of the payload, there, might be applications, where it's feasible, to use heavy batteries, but, in most applications. Where weight really matters. Batteries. Nowadays, are just too heavy that's one of the reasons why for example and, I will show you later on let, me dig in the field of lithium sulfur which is considered to be a very lightweight but still powerful and energy dense material. Before. We go in the feel more in the deeper field of chemistry about just. To show you what happens when you get from what you typically, read in research articles. Or newspaper, articles, that there might be a breakthrough, typically. Those breakthrough happens, on the cell size that is more coin type or small. Credit, card shape cell, with. Less it's not very much energy but it's based on a cell evaluation. We just evaluate, the weight and the volume of a smaller cell then you are typically, on the left part of the diagram, just evaluating. Cell chemistry, for, any kind of application, that needs multiple cells, for example a car a large electric, computer, or aircraft. You might need a serious, and parallel connection, of multiple, cells just to increase the energy because. It might need more than 100 yds to drive for more than a few minutes to operate the CPU, this, is bias modules. And packs are built from cells where, series and parallel connections. Are attached to each other because, cable, sensors, and cooling plates do not contribute, to energy storage this. Is considered to be a passive, material, it's essential, in the battery pack, but some volume, is left some weight is added that does not store, energy this is just that, volume but it's essential, so, you, from, the more, chemical, or fundamental, part they lose about half of, the energy density getting. From the cell to the pack. Doing. All the countermeasures, for cooling, safety. And putting, some sensors inside, installing. Heavy weight cables, on working. On in within this field will, generate, another type of Wharf but, has some feedback, on the chemistry tool for example if a chemistry, is intrinsically.
Safe If there's no flammable liquid, anymore any countermeasures. Against, fires, against. Gas, formation, can. Be reduced or can be even discarded, or so safe in volume, and weight and reducing. Some other counters, measures, increases. Energy density, on the pack level significantly. We. Have two large screws we can turn on one is the. Chemistry in general making it s energy dense as possible, the other one is reducing. Dead volume and dead, weight on the peg level increasing, energy density, which corresponds. To avoiding, loss of energy density, just by negative. Or passive material, countermeasures that's - that's something. You need to have, in mind when you read research articles, when people people only talk about small single, cells but. Making, cells of battery. Packs of multiple, cells typically. Leads to, a loss, of energy density corresponding. To the intrinsic, intrinsic. Factors, of the materials, for example safety. Efficiency. Which, for the engineers is a generation. Of heat that needs to be somehow. Met, by the air conditioning system as well as loss of energy because of a low efficiency. If. We compare, this for just to before, because you will need the background I guess for the upcoming table if you compare this for three different type of cars I've used the smallest car we have in the company this is the e smart, as, well as the passenger cars a trap and compare, different type of chemistry the, typical, lithium-ion actually, is not yet a one size fits all but it's a pretty well, known and, acceptable. Solution, for the next maybe five to ten years with, some drawbacks in terms of costed, with a very poor efficiency. And a very poor sustainability. But it fulfills, the. Request. Between, driving, ranges well we could cost very well and it's mightily accepted, and not, yet fully understood, but quite. Durable. For at least five to ten years if, we go on to scale this a little bit for them will allow vehicles. Then of course, a larger, vehicle desperate, corresponds, a little bit without much question, has, much more volume left for the battery pack and if, you think of a box with the cell inside just, on a relative, scale. The. Surface, to volume ratio. Changes. A lot you can put much more, volume, inside, the same box and don't have almost. Have no left, volume, that, you Luis actually, for cooling requirements. This is by one, of the reasons my driving range and the cost ratio changes, when you scale from a small battery to, large battery, packs and get even to extremely large systems, for example for truck. Applications, I've, derived the numbers from what we had filed together with other OEMs to EPA this, is why I could put the numbers in but if, you have a look at the vehicle cost scale it's not a typical Mercedes, Benz cost scale I think we have used, average, numbers, that includes even much cheaper because but on a relative, scale that's, always true for any kind of car system, as well as for the truck application. And, let's just, show the summary because there you will easily point out or find. Out that the uncertainty. For the human. Nowadays. Is pretty high the big difference, between worst in the best case for a, driving, range of a thousand, kilometers, of overall. Range, 512 hours 700 miles in general, is very high this corresponds. To the, material, research, we are at, the moment the classical. Lithium ion will, be some how its. Exchanged. By an evolutionary. Step within the next year increasing. Energy density, but increasing, energy density on the system level to this the best-case scenario if. This doesn't work and this. Is needs a lot of help from organic chemistry as well as computational, chemistry, then, beyond the curve of the case that, vehicle, cost stays where it is - it's too high actually to meet the mass markets, and because, some of the numbers were from the cost data derived from General Motors you, won't be able to build, a mass-market car, in the range of 75 to 700, kilometers, of driving range, for, the typical u.s. price twenty five to thirty thousand. Dollars so then a hundred percent of penetration, within the market, won't, be possible at that, yes. I. Didn't. Hear it for. All. Right now I've got em sorry I just seen it yeah I got it yeah, that's correct because the, larger the batteries the more weight you put through the wake of the more countermeasures, are necessary, for the crash structure, for safety like countermeasures. And this, is the uncertainty because, it's highly driven by the law, it's know somehow driven, by physics you can do a lot of another, technical scale but, it's pretty difficult actually, to meet all the standards for, example in China and most of the, uncertainty.
Above The $40,000. Just for this example it's just a relative example, it's just driven by Peck development, where a, potential. Development, on the vehicle, structure the crest structure it's a high, overhead, of cost because, then the Paragon. Itself, needs to be safer, than, the overall car or in other words you, need to put all countermeasures. In the Box in the pad or Peck and not allowed to use the car, itself, as a large stretch buffer, anymore. This, is the uncertainty, so it's not really actually bad chemistry but it's includes a lot a lot of regulations. But any kind of moving objects, in daily life vehicles, buses, aircrafts. Are part. Of public. Regulations. Driven by law and of course difference between, nations somehow. Influence. This, uncertainty nevertheless, it, can be driven down but it will never be a kind of a single curve that worse than best-case we'll meet each other, understands. The the, question or and it's a good very good question, nevertheless, I don't have a full answer because we do we can influence chemistry, and physics we can, just, somehow influence. Legislation. At. Least that is not my powerful fundamental, resource. To. Have a look on the raw material, success just be I don't want to lose too much time on this part actually but just to give you a slide over, you because most of us are not, engineers. In terms of mining, raw, materials, are usually. Placed. In regions, in the world works either very hard or very cold or pretty deep under the earth most, of the raw. Materials, we need for bed related. Applications, that usually, found in the Republic. Of Congo as well in Cameroon that is cobalt, as well nikka sometimes. Man GaN but. Those metals, are the most. Important. Elements, we need for energy storage this, is related. To how. You can oxidize materials. And reduce those materials, in terms of chemistry and we need some of those materials just. To to. Acting in a light. Nickel and cobalt where. The Nick Hobart has somehow the function, to occur of the act like a dipper has a diplomatic, function, in the electrochemistry, we called it to be a redox, mediator, because, it's needed, to enforce, the nickel to be able to store energy those, materials, are typically metal oxides, or metal sulfides, in most, camp, cells you are using in your cell phones or on your laptop computers, it's an oxide, material, of the cobalt it's lithium cobalt oxide it's. A very energy, dense material, but fully made of cobalt and in. The upcoming slides I can, just show you that supply, and demand, even without digging, food in all the small numbers, does. Meet each other very well there. Are some applications for example cell phones where there are no alternatives or, not, very many alternatives. But that the upcoming markets to for, example the. Cour as well as the truck fields supply. And demand, the the blue curves typically, show different, models, for the demand. Is a collaboration. Of the US Department, of Energy, just, putting together all the supply and demand numbers, in the world written, by different applications. The. Curve, for the last computational. For, we did this was in mid, of 2017. And sub us was about met by the computational. Models. Was. Somehow met, by mining, industries, thought there's a lot of stockpiling, but if we look a little bit further down the road when Eevee Eevee's in vehicles. As well as in drugs might, have a certain, part, of the OSHA share, of the overall market let's say one to ten, to twenty, five or thirty five percent and. It becomes pretty obvious that, even in twenty five in, a moderate, case scenario, supply and demand doesn't meet each other very well that. Cobalt, is one of the crucial elements and I guess you know that maybe so even from newspapers, articles. Is. A pretty rare material, it's. Difficult, to mine it has some ethical, issues because. The child. Labor's, somehow, involved in particular in the Republic of Congo and this is one of the ethical. Issues that your one supplier should have or should take care about because, we can label it to be a green element, somehow if you take care of all the refining, processes, in all the chemical, processes, in the me in that. Happen in the refining of those elements if the, sourcing, in general is somehow linked, to a situation. That doesn't meet our ethical, standards, it will never be a kind of sustainable. Way to, enable. The electron apparel actual traction. Of a vehicle, like electro mobility or an electric vehicle if. We built, the model and we do some pretty complex, modeling, for that but you can just.
Put It down because that public, I can use numbers that we can easily show and share if you just, use, a linear approach, and just convert, some share of the overall EB market like passenger, cars all trucks use, all the cobalt, resources, we know and we know them very well as, as well as the resource and made, some make some assumptions, for evey market, share for example 11, or 25, percent of passenger. Cars that are converted, to full electric, cars you. Can describe. The cobalt, supply Barry just, easily. In terms of megatons, or kilotons, that are needed per year and. The. Pretty. Rough translation, of all those numbers is if you take into account the chemistry, that will, happen in in in most of labs during the next about ten years, it's. About possible, to build a hundred millions, of mid-size. Sedans. 60. Kilowatt, hours each. With. All the cobalt resources, we are aware of just to give you a rough estimate eighty five two hundred millions, of passenger cars corresponds. To what all the car makers produced within one year so. A hundred percent penetration, within, the market won't, be possible with, the current state of the art of technology, we are using. In all the applications, like laptop computers or electric vehicles this is one of the huge motivations. We have to, dig in fields like lithium sulphur, beyond, lithium ion as well as some solid-state applications, where we can reduce the cobalt to a minimum, or almost replace it get. Rid of all the toxic elements the rare elements, and the pricey elements, increasing. Safety. And this. Is one part will be part of our discussion for, the computational, chemistry. Thinking. About for example the solid a crystal, material for solid ion conductor, between, the anode, and the cathode radio. Replacing. The liquid and flammable electrolytes. We are using nowadays and, just, taking advantage that. We can get rid of other toxic, materials, too just because we got, a very safe and very stable electrolyte. In the median in the middle. As. I pointed, out in the beginning of just would like to use the opportunity to remind you that there's more than just lithium, based chemistry, and you, will see later on that they are lithium sulfur, that, is the solid state as well as some polymer based work too in. The beginning there is, another type of conversion, because it's the same most simple element, in the periodic table of element, this is one of the reasons maybe by electro chemists like hydrogen, hydrogen, is. Very energy, dense it's pretty clean production, at the moment does not and then to be honest is made from natural gas this, needs to be changed needs, to be a border, and electrolysis, just. From made. From electricity, nevertheless, fuel, cell has some advantages, when it comes to large applications. Like vehicles. Cars. Trucks, or, even aircraft because. Its energy dance is pretty lightweight it's, fully recyclable. Afterwards. You just have steam of water nevertheless, the, fuel cell has still some it disadvantages.
Cannot Handle high, requests. Or high demand of power changes, so, pushing an accelerator, and a car usually changes. The, dynamic, of the overall car within a few seconds, this, not, can't, be met with, catalysts, today because when the hydrogen flashes, the electrodes, there's a catalyst, sitting on top of the carbon layers that needs to convert the hydrogen, burning with the oxygen converted, to electricity this. Is one of the motivators, why we do, a lot of work for the catalysts, it's similar to the catalytic converter you have an in your carb 4 to convert, toxic. Gases from your combustion, engine, before. It leaves leaves, the car nevertheless, a lot, of research can be done on the solid state of typically, oxide materials, or metal. Alloys for those catalytic, converters, to, reduce, the price the elements, like platinum or rhodium making. Them more sustainable, and in particular, more durable, on the other hand we would love to increase, the energy density or the efficiency. To reduce the loss of heat, from. The electrochemistry. Side a point of view. Doing. Research fundamental, research for batteries and fuel cell actually there's not very much, difference, in between because, it's always a kind of catalytic, conversion. Reaction. So. For from our computational. Work and this might be part of our ongoing work, it. Doesn't matter actually for, which part of the fuel cell or the battery we, have a look at typically, it will be a solid-state approach for batteries nevertheless, please keep in mind that there are some catalytic, work for fuel cells too and even in the fuel cell just, give me a second to the finish my sentence even, in the fuel cell there's, a way to replace, metal atoms by fully organic catalysts. So, called organic fuel cell but this is a little bit far down the road. That. Required. You. Mean when you add a fuel, cell and kind of forensics and this corresponds, to the application, typically, the the, kilowatt. Of the, power. Output, of the fuel cell somehow corresponds. To the number of the. Battery, in terms of kilowatt hour that is related, because our so-called one-seed charge, charge, a full charge of the battery within, one hour is a reasonable, number and. Converting. But, not regular, power nominal. Power output, of the fuel cell charging. The battery within one hour to, boodle is a good balance but of course you can play around with the numbers nevertheless.
Increasing. The battery size, and reducing. The fuel cells has enabled the engineers, and chemists, to reduce the talks the well thats a pricey catalyst. Of the fuel cell were roughly ninety percent because. The battery. In general, is, more kind of a transaxle, or, well the dynamic, happens and that's usually because they don't drive on a girl down at the constant level the, battery helps the fuel cell to do what the fuel cell ideal they can do just running a very stable, and constant, conditions. That's. A very good question in. Hydrogen. In itself, is not explodes if it needs the oxygen correct its corresponds, to that now let. Become. To that point it's, corresponds, to your liquid gasoline. In your car you, need oxygen due to enable, it to react in the, reservoir, itself in, the gas bombs there is no oxygen so it cannot react, you must have a leak then hydrogen, might get to the environment, because, the hydrogen is very lightweight you, do not run into issues like with propane gas in, California, you don't have basements but, in all the states where you might have propane, furnaces. And you might collect, the propane, in the basement, just under, your house so it won't get, outside, of the house just because it has, less weight than the air this. Is one of the reasons by explosions. With propane, for example can happen so why did you have hydrogen, in your getting in your garage and it's somehow might, leak might Lippe leaking then, it would leave the garage much, earlier, then you can get to a concentration, that it gets to an explosive level, this is one of the reasons why even. In a. Not. Very well. In and in case of any potential. Failure. Of a wall for whatever it might be the. The. Certainty, to get to a level of concentration, that an explosion might happen is, very uncertain. The. If you think of a battery in the battery house and give every element. That is likening, this typical, explosive, that is there to enable, it to react in case of a short in a Cell on the. Battery housing in general you, do not need any external. Element. Like oxygen to enable it to react like, with an explosive just, a trigger like us a short in a battery will cause it to form a fire or an explosion so. From even as a battery researcher. In. Terms of chem in getting. Back to the chemistry the battery, itself, is less safe than the fuel cell concept, in general, nevertheless. In terms of what happens you there billions, of cells in your and your pockets, as well as on your office desk there's almost no. Failures, reported, we are in the level of ppb. Of fayliss that's, actually, a remarkable, success of. Large-scale. Engineering. As well as large-scale quality. Control I share. Your, opinion, that or the, idea that a gas highly, compressed, includes. Some intrinsic risk and the answer from the theory is of course it's risky, but, it's much more risky, to carry around something, that can you react, without having, an external trigger. So. We do our very best to make it as safe as possible that's, that's. More the scientific maybe this is the scientific, answer, there are sensor concepts, as well as other intrinsic concept, to make it much an increase safety a lot for, the battery it's a solid-state concept to reduce flammable, liquids so hydrogen is what, was one of the core, parts to the development, of carbon fiber based tanks reducing. Liquid based hydrogen, in vehicles. This. Depends on the driving cycle as, I have pointed out here because there's not very much, hydrogen, infrastructure, in the u.s. in particular out of California. This. Would be a reasonable, way to use hydrogen as a range extender when it comes to driving at long distances, and once, there's more infrastructure, either, fourth quick charging of electricity were, quick charging. Of hydrogen, use just, what is available because then it's more flexible, with. Regard. To how. To use the infrastructure. This. Depends, on the country shall provide, you live in Sweden or Norway may, well there's a lot of hydropower, or in the u.s. close to Canada where hypo Quebec produces, a lot of excess of electricity then. Hydrogen, of course is often, a cheap storage, as well as transportation. Solution, to, avoid, to. Invest in the electric infrastructure, but transport, gases, because for transportation, of liquefied, gases there is already a well existing, infrastructure, then, it might be worth to.
Think About it for example for trucks and buses for, passenger, cars because of the overall efficiency and, out whether you can beat the regular, court and the block just. Provided, you charge with 3 kilowatt, a night and stay at home for 8 hours this corresponds, to 24, kilowatt hours, enabling. To, drive you roughly 80 miles that. May. Be what, the typical commuter, won't exceed a day provided. You don't live in a very chilly state we only didn't need a lot of heating, but. Let's. Succeed from the positive angle it enables, a lot of flexibility, to use what is available to detect advantage, of quick charging will in terms of charging or gas instead. Of just. Relying on one of the other options. Unfortunately. The beauty of 100%. Of flexibility, we. Are used to from driving. A thousand miles and higher without, refill, having the refill you, need to refill diesel power there are cars. Seems. To be, overcome or to end someone, in the close of your job just. To, do and this part of the more technical, AMA Quadling this is a kind of concept, to show you. But you with. Regard what you are have been asking. Comparing. About passenger. Car as well as a truck, then. How to read but you will see a comparison between the years of 2017. This is the solid lines as well as 2014. This is interrupted. Lines as. Well for a lithium-ion battery, electric. Vehicle, as a fuel, cell vehicle this is the blue lines as well as pardon. The surrey yellow, kind, of a reddish lines as well as the blue lines is a so-called plug-in, hybrid concept where, small, fuel cell acts more as a range extender and. Enables. Longer driving distances. Short. Answer, there is not one size fits all again this depends, on the overall driving range it won't be reasonable to build a small like a small city car with, a fuel cell because there's not too much volume left in the car thought. Might, be a very convenient, options, on, the other hand building a long range truck is doable, with a battery but they'll be heavy and will be pretty costly their, fuel cell can use all the advantages, that hydrogen, provides, just by nature giving, all the high, energy density, of this, of this gas but, let's take a little bit more deeper into the chemistry because that's actually where the, strengths of my teams are in the fundamental, chemistry and as, I promised, one, of the approaches, is replacing. Cobalt and nickel with sulfur. You taking, advantage of an abundant, and very cheap material, that, usually. Is. Available. In H and very pristine, way from the desulphurization. Of gas natural. Gas as well as of true toil when it's refined. To gasoline as, well of diesel, we, thought about one of the core, concepts, using, a solid state approach, when, starting. This type of research, replacing. Flammable. Liquids, the electrolyte, at least with a polymer, that is less flammable of course, if you think of a plastic foil this is somehow flammable. At elevated temperatures, but not at room temperature, the, ultimate, goal would be to convert it to a full comics, that we are not yet there I will point out that later but. Most of the research in lithium sulfur is linked to solid, state concepts. Where all the electrochemistry. Happens, in a solid concept, that's, very different from all you might know from daily life as well as what nature. Enables, us to do the, largest battery you know is actually your body at the end of your nerves where electricity is converted, to chemistry and from chemistry again back to electrochemistry. To, electricity what. Happens in your nervous system this, is a kind, of a natural battery, but voltages, are low energy, densities the low it's more used as a kind of digital from a function, to transmit, signals were everything, that we need in cars and water in aircrafts, and other applications, is always. Linked, to much. More. Important, differences, in electrochemistry, in terms of voltage that, in terms of electrochemical, electro. Negative, difference just. To give you an idea of how sulphur in the world, looks like that typically, happens in how Abbas the crude oil is somehow process, typically in the hub, of Toronto, and runs maybe, you can have a close look to people, and some larger. Cars and just get an estimate, how, those large mountains, made of just powder, of sulfur, look alike it's. Just abandoned, it's there it's not used for most of the processes, because the world doesn't have a high demand on sulfur, as sulfuric, acid, so, most of the sulfur is just stored in the landscape, it doesn't pollute the world, too much because, it's not soluble in water that, that part it just stands around was, one of the driving force is about ten years ago when I thought about lithium, cell for metal sulfur, research. And started, in the sodium sulfur, and just taking advantage of what's available in nature and what is very close to the, opposite, of hydrogen, that was oxygen, as a very energy, dense material, and if you think of the periodic, table of elements one.
Row Is that below the oxygen, they're self acidic, offering. A similar, electronegativity. Towards. The lithium. And self is a pretty lightweight material. So, we could take advantage of, all the lightweight, material, from the from, nature, lithium. As a lightweight material, or metal as well as they were pretty lightweight sulfur. Without. Having to do too much too much research for, oxygen. Bay related, chemistry, never maybe if you think bad, lithium, chemistry, when people were thinking about lithium, or air batteries. The. Truth was that most, of those batteries were lithium oxygen, batteries, because. The batteries, didn't, have the ability you have your. Body's able to absorb oxygen and, just, doesn't, take advantage of the nitrogen, that is in the air to where, as for all the batteries we need to filter the oxygen, apart from the rest of the air and this was one of the crucial factors but if you mayor didn't work in the beginning because, the female in real life was more lithium oxygen and because the, batteries. Do not have a full chemical bloondig. The gas, cleaning devices, the, concept, didn't work but. Let's get let's get back to the lithium sulfur walk when you think about a very sustainable, concept. You need to think about how, to fix, lithium, cell for how to process, it in a more sustainable way without using too many chemical. Steps in between like sulfuric acid, that is considered, to be toxic, to be dangerous. We. Got back to fibers. Because, in nature. Sulfur. In. Some of edibles, you might taste it like asparagus, but, nature, widely, uses sulfur, to, bind polymers. Together hair, typically, uses. Some amino acids to strengthen, if, you do a permanent of course you bind sulfur. Chains, between the between the hair somehow to give it a shape if, natural, rubber for, tires is converted, in the vulcanization reaction. We take advantage of sulfur, to cross-linked, natural, rubber to, make those more like looking pretty, heavy-duty and, durable. Tires any. Polymer, consists. And, it's. The, same for nature as well as for chemistry of a backbone structure which. At, which sulfur, typically, is bonded, sulfur. Can cross-linked those chains to give it a more 3d, structure, and make it pretty durable, for example the tires for the cow but. We can also take advantage of the bonds of sulfur, that they have a high tendency to, stick to a polymer to a natural, backbone, of any, kind of polymer, so the, backbone, of the polymer becomes a kind of a host that. Attaches. The sulfur to it to each other there, are a lot of concepts, in and research, papers using. Carbon, structure, attaching, somehow, in an adhesion reaction. Sulfur, to the surface but there's no chemical, bond that fixes, the sulfur atoms to, the back to the backbone of the polymer let's say for example here to the carbon atoms this. Is why we thought about a concept, how to fix the sulfur, to, those, polymers. The. Reaction, in general leads. To polyacrylonitrile. Based. Polymers. That are. Widely used for closes.
That Are lightweight for, sports like adidas or Colombia the. More soft fabrics, that. Gives. This kind of nice. Fielding, of sports closest as, but what, PA and fiber and in general, have a wide well-established industry. So we didn't be had, no need to dig in the field of polymer, engineering since. The chemistry. Shouldn't have happened on the fundamental, science side if. You convert polyacrylonitrile. The. Typical. Known fibers, with sulphur we end up by something we call SP, a and sulfur. Poly acrylonitrile it's. Not a structured, general or it's not muchas one structure, it's a wide field of different structures because. Depending on the catalysts. We are using depending, on the process parameters, we end by very different structures. As well as very different hosts, because, the way how we make those carbon, structures, the, different, a lot, of difference, is actually related, to how much sulfur, can be infused, in those structures how, the binding, happens to the sulfur, how. Likely, the cow bond is to release the sulfur again there. Are three major types that are known from literature one is the more bulky, type with, an undefined, 3d structures. The, most ordered, one is the so called fiber, SP, and we're highly, defined fiber like hair is, produced. In a synthetical. Step with, a highly, defined, surface, to volume ratio as well, as the so called monolithic, concept, that, didn't work just to leave it up aside for this this, side this would be just processing, a huge block of a polymer infusing, the sulfur, as you know it from tire sex or actually from cars but, tiles, are pretty durable the. Same happen for that - chemistry just. - sure. Alright. Yeah. That, it. Can be made conductive, this depends, on the structure how we make it what we have what substitutes we add we, can give it some conductivity. This can, have some fair advantages. Related. Yeah. In this structure but that's just a symbol for one of all the PA and structures, it, can be made conductive, depending, on how we built the poly acrylonitrile structure. The core, structure without Salva, is typically. Not conductive, this is why we need some. Let's. Say cross polymerization. To make it more conductive. You. Will see the chemistry I think on the next, slides maybe, then oops sorry on this lag. The. Polymerization. The, cross polymerization takes, advantage, of some of the core elements that are known actually from, polyacrylonitrile. Chemistry. I cannot, disclose all the additives we are using this is somehow, related to, the electrochemistry, as well as to the conductivity, the. Conductivity, can be easily measured from those fibers. Most. Of the of, the. Additives, actually, have. An influence and how much sulphur, can be attached to the backbone because that is crucial, provided, there's a huge overhead, of a kind, of polymer structure, with almost no sulfa attached to each other the, energy density will, most likely be very low because the reaction happens between lithium, as well as with the sulphur and typically.
The Backbone or the polymer should remain a very stable kind of structure, nevertheless, we can use for example nickel, as well as some other forms, to, take, advantage. Of some, catalytic or pseudo catalytic, reactions, to, steer the reaction, or control the reaction and the, repetitive units, of the polymer, the chain, lengths, typically, are the lengths or correspond, to the crystallinity, of the material or the pseudo crystallinity. As well as to the density, of the polymer and somehow, control, the. The. Amount, of sulfur we can infuse in those polymer, materials, before we converted to, the final cathode, Tyrael it's a pretty complex, concept, a check cannot just can't. Fully dig in this field because then it gets, to. My understanding too complex nevertheless if you're interested in that just come in the break and please ask. The. Amount. Of sulfur that corresponds, to the energy density, of the lithium sulfur concept, in general is, pretty, close to a roughness due to 3/4, that's about 75%. Of the, polymer, can be loaded with sulfur maybe this gets back to your question and underlines. Why the structure, I've shown is just a symbol of the P and in general provided. You have just a few positions, worth, Coulomb. Carbon. Can, be bonded to the sulfur the. Percentage, would be much less than, maybe 10 or 20% this. Is one of the answers why we cannot just rely on the typical Pierre and structures you might note from textbooks but need to change it in a cross polymerization, where, the original, structure, of the Pierre and just, has a very small percentage, of the, overall 3d. Structure, of a larger polymer, that is more likely to be a protein. Like structure, rather than a typical technical. Polymer, structure, nevertheless. If we look at those fiber based reaction. Reaction, products, we get after the reaction it looks a little bit like hair or the fibers you know from textiles, were, pretty long pretty huge surface but, almost no volume and, pretty, well structures, and pretty, homogeneous structures. All over the polymer. After. Potential in fusion reaction, the sulfur, using, some catalytic, reactions, we, get a well-established. SPN. Structures, but maybe I may draw your attention, to the few pores we get and we can't avoid them during polymerization. They. Cannot. Be filled with alpha, because alpha that is not bond covalently, bonded to the surface might. Be dissolved, in the ongoing reactions. Form lithium, sulfide, that is known to be not very conductive as, well as my dissolve. Or diffuse, to the anode, which is lithium, metal and not just my poison it by a passivation, of the surface just, poison, it from, any kind and avoid any kind of further electrochemical. Reaction, just. The homogeneity, of, the SPN, polymer, was the one of the core, reasons why we stayed with this concept, for, the conversion. Of a polymer this alpha, is, known to be a pretty difficult, stepping. In chemistry, because it needs to be highly, homogeneous. If you convert if you compare, two of the concepts, we have in tech a technical, literature one, is more the fiber based reaction, that, is what you might wear as is closest as well as bulk that is a chaotic, mixture, of a 3d structure there, are so-called current, density, strongly, differs this. Current density corresponds. To the charge speed, you can apply to any kind of cell for example whether you can charge it within one hour or not this, somehow gets, back to the question well. How fast can a car be charged, if it's, charged with succeed. And in within one sixth, of an hour it will be fully charged, of course, one, sixth of an hour that's just about, 10 minutes this might be core it might correspond, to what you know from refilling a car nowadays it's. Difficult to, do that with electrical, grid nevertheless, it's an important, number for battery, related, research when it the application, might be at all and this. One of the core reasons why we need to pay attention to the current density which. Is the more, scientific number, of electro chemistry the. DMT, SS PN hybrid, system, might. Need, a electrolyte. We. Had we got a cathode material we, have a unknown material, now we, need the electrolyte, in between as. You pointed, out and I have you have asked, about the conductivity, before. About SPN and conductivity, of the backbone once. Fully locked, and fully coated with the sulfur it's not very conductive anymore, because the sulfur chain, sulfur, chains are very likely to form bridges, fully, passivating. And hindering, the surface of the polymer, to undergo any kind of chemical, reaction if. You use a catalytic, real extra. Light like the MTS or DMD s we, found that can easily crack, those sulfur chains, and, if you may, draw your attention, maybe to the double binding of the sulfur chain and.
Small, Liquid reaction, to the DMT s we can easily correct this or the, sulfur, chains and more or less activated. If you literally, take it like, that then it's kind of the activation. Of the sulfur coated surface of the, polymer, enabling. The sulfur, to react with the lithium enabling. It to store energy and, surprisingly. Maybe. It's a surprise but it's, easy to describe the chemistry. One. Of the sulfur atoms. Remains. On the surface, of the polymer, building. A kind of grain or seat where the rest of the sulfur will recombine, in, the other. Type of the reaction for example in the charging step this. Is my after fully charging, and discharging and, charging again the, electrochemistry, didn't change it, changed, a lot in the meanwhile, because the electric electro. Chemically, active, redox active electrolyte, contributed. To the charging, of the system but, in the end the solid phase the cathode. Obviously. Didn't change thought. There. Was a wide change in chemistry, during, charging, in this charge and this is what you know from daily life from a catalyst, it somehow takes part but it is not changed during the reaction, just. Keep that. If. You compare cycle. Life that corresponds. To the. Number. Of miles or kilometers, you might live with an overall of a lifetime, or how many times you can recharge your cell phone and compare. The capacity, and the y-axis again. If, you just think about the onesy that corresponds, again to a one-seed, charge. Or discharge within. One hour the. Number of cycles exceeds, about, what has been reported, in literature so, far about by double the number typical, literature, values go to 3 to 3, a 2 to 300, because, sulfur. Is likely, to dissolve in electrolytes, since. We bind, it to the surface and it's fully bonded overall the chemical, reaction, there's, no poisoning. Of the anode, material and, this is very similar. To what happens to catalysts. For example in your catalytic, converter on fuel cells that, once, they get poisoned, over lifetime. They lose their reactivity. And cannot, participate and. And electrochemical. Reaction but finding, a concept to avoiding, the. Poisoning. Or to have a reactivation. Of poisoned, surfaces, we. Could at least limit in the first step the, deterioration. Of life himself chemistry's. Never, last the concept, of polymer based lithium. Sulfur chemistry is still pretty, complex, and complex, to handle, sorry for that for, due to time I just skip the slides but there I guess there will be online so kind of a closer look to a spectra, that are a little bit difficult to explain the. SPN cathode, in general, is coded. In a tri coding step to a current. Collector, because cathode. And anode will need to current collectors, where electricity can flow through those. Layers, are made of solids as you know it from lithium. Ion cells and cell phones as well as in laptop. Computers in. Contrast, to the cells you know we we can use metallic, lithium foil, which is highly reactive towards. Moisture, as well as to air, but it's fully sealed and because. We do can avoid any kind of liquid electrolyte, that might be flammable we can take advantage of, highly energy dense with your metal foil that, cannot be used so far in any kind of lithium-ion, cells because. The reason why lithium-ion is called lithium ion it avoids typically. Lithium, metal foils, only, ions are moving back and forth between cathode, and anode and, after. The disaster, in the beginning of the 90s with sony cells that exploded, because they hold. Some lithium ion, metal I know it's the. Solid state concepts, for example if your metal polymers, or lithium, sulfur polymer, systems as well as future qur'anic, solid state concepts, can take advantage, of lithium metal foil because, they avoid. Any kind of flammable and highly reactive organic, liquids, in the cell avoiding. A short enabling. The use of high energy dense materials, so the advantage, of lithium, sulfur actually, doesn't really come from the sulfur, it's a huge, benefit, to take advantage, of sulfur. Abundant, material, but, most of the advantage, of high energy density comes, forward from a lightweight.
And Very energy dense anode and this is a lithium metal in a purist, and mode, very pristine, why. Just. To give you an idea how live, part, yes listen. It's. Fully reactive. And high with, both board or oxygen, and even nitrogen, this, is one of the reasons my cells have a durable. And, pretty. Well sealed housing, can be a pouch film that, includes for example aluminum. Layer to block even diffusion, of oxygen can. Be a hard case housing, like aluminum, or stainless steel but, needs, a durable, and, hermetically. Sealed housing to avoid penetration. Of oxygen, nitrogen moisture. This. Was correct, provided. They have a, liquid, electrolyte because. Then you have mobility of selenium, and lithium sulfide to a places, where reaction, can happen provided. You have an inter layer made of a polymer or even a qur'anic then, you can easily control, the fuse, ability, of lithium, sulfide or hold it too close to the, side for example the cathode, where, the reaction, happens in a controlled way and avoid the poisoning, on the other side of the lithium. Your. Question is fully correct but the answer is yes. If you have a liquid electrolyte and, no if it's a core polymer. System worker romic system solid. State in this case is a kind of an enabler of safe. Use of lithium, metal and. Moreover. This was not part of your question but if you look at the surface actually of the of a use lithium. Anode. You. Will dissolve the film lithium ions will more, or less travel, to the other other side and come back again they do not recombine. In a kind of, flat. Reaction, as you know it from for example plating of copper or plating, of chromium or blurb lighting of metals, on silver male it will somehow form, a pretty chaotic surface. There's a weakening, of those surfaces. Over lifetime nevertheless. The solid-state electrolytes. For example we are working on, equalize. The current density distribution, leading. To, a pretty, flat recombination. After, several. Hundreds of cycles of lithium on top of leech lithium. Actually. Lithium, is one of the metals that doesn't. Like it light itself, very much couple. Likes to play it on itself, lithium hates itself, it's. Likely to play it everywhere, but not in itself nevertheless, you will find that there's a weakening, of the lithium an order of a lifetime, increasing, for example the surface, and surface, of us is related, to reactivity. And of course of course to off to lack. Of diffuse and diffusion, properties, and diffusion kinetics nevertheless, for, the time, frame we are looking at lifetime, of fifteen to twenty years this is a controlled, process where we know the kinetic factors, for. Nevertheless. Even, with this kind, of coin made cells, have shown you before on the sizes, for reasonable. Reasons about the diameter, of a compact, disc or DVD, disc because, it's typically, spin carried the, current density distribution as, well as the way how lithium, passes, through from the cathode to the anode is, monitored. By Neutron, death profiling, and this, is one of the ways how to monitor, lithium, concentration. Within a wall. Operating, cell of a lithium sulfur, cell or lithium ion cell and without. Digging even in the details you can easily see that it's far away from being a homogeneous reaction, so far so, there's much, more work needed in particular, for the polymer, because, at the moment we have a high concentration where. We did expect, it actually, more or less in the center of those disks of electrodes, but still the axis is like in biology. The. Less stable parts, where inhomogeneities, happens. And if, you think of nature all integrals. In nature, get. To a more radial, shape than, ninety, degree angles, there are typically, no, no specific, inhomogeneous part because that leads to an inefficiency, of energy, conversion this, is the same actually for. Any. Kind of shape of electro, electrode, in electrochemistry. Where, you have edges and this. Is a, motivation. To take more, care of the electrolyte, to get lead it to a single iron conductor, which can equalize, this kind of low of ions, from anode. I thought one. Of the reasons to go to and just an insight because I cannot show any kind of details but it's part of a and Department, of Energy funded projects, in collaboration with here two universities, in Michigan, this will guide us from, the polymer, based electrolyte, to a full economic made, with, a protected.
Lithium, Metal surface. To. Set up that you can see here on top corresponds, to what you had seen before you, taken advantage, of lithium, sulfur cathodes. But, replacing. The polymer, by a more or less comic, solid state system that course, that somehow, looks like a very thin sheet of paper made, of a Kurama kinder layer using. Lithium, metal as, the uh note maybe, and on top of copper but most likely we will replace even the copper but using, a protective intermediate. Layer made, of an inorganic polymer. So the lithium, and this corresponds, to the question whether it's highly reactive they'll, be protected, by an inter layer made, of an inorganic polymer. Like layer that, protects, and equalizes. The current, flow and makes, it much more durable, in terms of lifetime the. Title, but had included, some beyond lithium work and this will be the last few slides I would like to show you because. On the long range lithium, is. Not. Actually. Powder for, any issues, about raw materials, access nevertheless. Refining. This film even from seawater, needs, some energy pollutes. The environment this, is one of the driving forces we think back to what happens in chemistry, and every, cell in your body for, example has a sodium, ion pump, it can easily pump, in sodium's, to the silk and pump, rotones and nature. There's very well in pumping, any kind of metal ions. Since. Sodium, is pretty. Abundant with sodium chloride that's the salt table salt that you might use in daily life nevertheless, the porphyrin structures. Can, be loaded with other metals ions to connect. Does not necessarily, need to be a sodium, it could be iron, then it's hemoglobin and that's a red part of the blood it, could be magnesium, that is abundant to than it's chlorophyll, that makes leaves, green, could. Be. Other material, cobalt in this case then it's vitamin b12, that's very healthy if it's a low dose material, it's highly toxic if it's too much. Nevertheless. All those three structures, inspired, from nature still contain a metal ion and if you want to go to large-scale, and want to have it fully recyclable, you need to avoid the metal because that makes the large-scale. Organic, structure, to be an inorganic metal, organic structure. But. Nature does, very well in replacing, those. Ions, because the way how for example bacteria, or, fungus makes, the porphyrin structures, a biotech, new process, where, the overall structure, is built before. The copper. Or the cobalt, or the magnesium is loaded on top of the structures, so. We can replace at, least in just, a symbolic reaction, because it's not yet published but we can replace the metal structure, building a full organic, salt it's a bilayer, salt where, one part of the reaction, is.
Made Of chlorophyll, the other is made of molecules. You might know from sleeping, aids as well as from, maybe. Pain relievers, in some way. But. Maybe the electro chemistry should keep you awake and a, few last slides is just the results, it's not yet there where it needs to be and if you think of leaves in nature they tend to bleach out in fall if, you think of colors, and dyes like ink, they tend to bleach out with light because, the structure. Without a metal center atom becomes, pretty unstable. Influences. From nature, like heat like, radiation, typically. Tend to decompose those, salt like structures, those organic, salts. Leading. Them to a cross-linking. Making an organic, polymer or what, happens in nature just to the composition, of those structures, so. We can get to very high, number, of cycles, could be, corresponding. To a half a million of kilometers, in a car but you need to drive them within one year this, is one of the reasons why at the moment the organic, chemistry, works very well if, done within a very short time time. Metro sexually organic. Is organic, batteries are pretty, far down the road at the moment this, is maybe something we need they might. Think about in 2030, it's, an excellent field of research because, can be done with almost no energy input, inspired, from nature that is something, we do with the Technion in Israel, where, we use highly. Concentrated it's a sea, water that comes from a decent education process. For, making water. That can be used for for humans, have. A genetically, modified cell. That. Has. No, sodium, ion pumps, anymore but lithium ion, pumps. Increasing. The concentration, of lithium, ions, within a cell and. After. Just burning, down the cells the biological, waste it's a classic chemical, process, that you might know from other industries then, it's just processing lithium, salts but, because the initial. Step, is inspired. Just by a kind of nature where we use lithium so Seaboard, or highly, concentrated lithium, sources, and enriched the lithium, concentration. Again using. A reaction, from nature, we do not invest any a lot of energy as well as we get rid of all the catalysts, that are in nowadays, used for enriching lithium ions or concentration, for, example, in salt, products. That come from Chile or the desert of Atacama. Just. Jump over and well get back to this slide about this just an inspiration, why we need some computational, help actually, for this field when, you dig in the field of biotech, bed, race you, easily, get to a hundred thousands. Or millions, of reactions, you need to take care of and this is at least to my understanding, nothing, that you can do by with humans in a lab that is by computers by they'll be needed or computational, help will be needed for this field it leads to filtering, out the most promising, compounds, and I. Think, this is one of the most, inspiring, aspects. May be a future for electro chemistry in the meanwhile there's a long aspect, of at least ten years making chemistry, safe. Or more, durable, increased. Recyclability. And I, think this is truly a positive, perspective for the future with that said I would like to thank you. I. Think. We're ten, minutes past the hour but, maybe. One. Or two questions, people's. Mind would have time for that. Thank. You very much that was a really, really nice talk I did maybe a bit of a technical question for, some of the lithium. Sulfur cycling. Data was, that on a like. A coin cell no, based, on her 12 centimeter. Diameter, disc, cells that's a typical format, we built we, started, with small coin tap cells in increased buttons, kept, the shape so. Make a pretty large coin type but it's 12 centimeter, in diameter and there are pouch cells of rectangular, shape the data I have shown here just for code to make a comparison, a little bit easier it's made of a disk shape but the disk is pointed out before it's. Related. To how we code those surfaces, this, is a kind of spin coating process and then of course the. Kind of cylindrical discussed, advantages, once, you do not dig in the field of coding okay, and since we are not engineers, I just need to keep the spin coating as sure so, my follow-up question is, was.
You, Tell me what the loading density, of sulfur was like. Areal density because. There's the cursor, stronger ve