Play Between Worlds with Augmented Reality | Martzi Campos | Wondros Podcast Ep 95
When people say, oh, you know, I can't wait to do VR cinema. I'm like, yeah, but that's inherently more lean forward. Even if it's just a story, the act of doing this, turning your head and looking around is taxing and we're lazy. You know, the reason we're not going to get the keyboards in minority report is because no one wants to pick up their arms. Like no we're going to use a mouse. First of all, a woman going into video games already is pretty unusual.
I know that there's a lot of literature out there and stuff. Is that unusual? Getting less unusual. Yeah. I mean, do you, do you have to have a brother who was younger than you that you're always playing with every day in order to get yourself into being into video games? I did. There you go.
A little bit about my history. So, you know, did not think I was going to the games, got a fine arts degree and then decided to do for grad school to go back for games. And I was hired to work in the game innovation lab. Their whole goal is to do things outside of the norm of gaming.
It's not focused entirely on entertainment. Sports are focused on education, understanding. One of the games that also came out of there is Walden, which is an adaptation of Henry David Thoreau's "Walden", um, of the same thing. And it's, and it's about like trying to like experience Walden the way he did. Um, you know, you go and you build the cabin, you, you like, you know, live how Thoreau did during those times. And you interact with his reading that way, which is the much more interactive way and a much more accessible way for, I think, you know, students to, to start engaging with it.
Working with fabric, you know, is a very tactile, you know, thing, you know, big fabric spaces. Um, how do you take that skill and bring it into gaming? Because it's just such a dip. That's me walking around inside fabric, trying to experience that to an online thing. How do those two things work together? So, yeah, my, um, background was in painting, but I ended up doing a lot of installation work and I started working with - Thank you for the clarification 'cause Jesse just - No worries I'm following.
Um, and so - Priscilla why are you looking like that? Well because we're talking about videos games, now we're talking about fabric, so, thank you. We're talking about her work. I'm, I'm following, I get you. Um, and so for me, I had a big hesitation. Like I think my work has always been incredibly physical. I, you know, had a traumatic experience in my undergrad where I was like, I want to create beautiful, wonderful things. I want people to go in and access to them. I want them to play.
I think like even when we go to a gallery today and if it's an installation piece, we're still like, do not touch the installation piece in an art gallery and I very much wanted to create things, which I, my artist statement has always been, if I can invoke in adults what a McDonald's play place evokes in kids, then I have succeeded. And so for me, switching over to video games is I don't see a difference because I still ended up making a lot of physical things. I think an understanding of space and how people move through a space is core for video games, much more than any other medium. Because people are, you know, we're used to storytelling being in a box, but when the player can wander, building a space becomes much more important. Which I do think ties into installation work. But in my own artistic practice, I've actually made a point of creating digital and physical combinations.
So I'm, I feel, I've done a little work in augmented reality, I've done some work in virtual reality, but building physical sets and then I've done a lot in micro computing. So taking very tiny, essentially computers and like wiring lights and switches so that they react and essentially build, do unexpected reactions in actual physical objects. When you, like a lot of people look at Call of Duty or Halo and they say, this is bad. Right? But there's something really beautiful about the way they work, the way they keep engaging a person to participate. You know, how do you, would you call that the game mechanic? Like, what do you call that thing that brings people back all the time, you know, to the game? I mean, I think there's a couple of things, you know, to, to call it.
But I think it's about flow and the like game feel as opposed to say mechanics. So you would say mechanics are like, you know, you're shooting, you get points, you level up, but what makes those franchises so successful and so fun nd so replayable is that they feel good. And I'm not just talking like, oh yeah, murder feels good. Like, I think that's a very, reductivist take on it. Like, you know, that's no different than reading an action book or watching an action movie.
Like I think what makes these games fun is that people have really considered, okay, like how wisas the screen shake going to feel? How is it going to, like how is the UI to switch between different guns gonna feel? All these elements that keep you in the heart of the action that make you feel empowered to make you feel cool, that have like special effects that create unique scenarios to make that gameplay renewable and interesting. And at the end of the day, not to throw around a very, you know, nebulous term, but that immersion I think, is what makes those games very popular, very fun. And also like, you know, the narrative feel of it.
I think when we think about video games, especially from an outsider's perspective, we tend to dismiss the storyline and the idea that it's you in control of it, um, and how wonderful and exciting that feels. And so no, no hate for any, any popular action games these days, because they're made by brilliant teams who have refined these feelings down to a science. Where they can really like start thinking about like, how is, how is every moment going to like, improve the players experience? Let's say, um, what's, uh, let's say that you're going to think of a new game.
Do you have to think of all new stuff? Or can you take a game engine and say, well, we use this game engine, use this piece and use that. Like, how does, how does, like what, so one line sentence that would be a premise for a game? Oh a one line sentence. I, well, first of all, to, to, to, to kind of jump in, I do think absolutely take, take, take, take from all of the things. I think, you know, say there's no new ideas under the sun is I think reductivist, but I do think it's very important to like, see what you like and, and, you know, make a twist on it. So many great games come from, you know, homages or like, you know, a fan being like, I really liked this. Let's make that. I think one of the great examples is "Portal", which is, uh,
was started off as a mod. I actually give a lecture to my students about the modding community and essentially like the idea that, you know, when we play a game and we can't do something in the game, it's an idea for how to make a next one. Like I say, there's desire paths throughout life. And when you're playing a game and you want to go do something and you can't do it all of a sudden, there's an opportunity there that says, Hey, you want to do that? Someone else wants to do it as well. And so like, you know, oh, I want to do Tetris, but I want to be able to rotate, you know, the blocks and see it from a different, different perspective. Or I want it to like flatten into 2D or, well, Tetris is already 2D, like 3D Tetris. I don't know what that means. It sounds like a headache to code,
but it's probably something. But with, with "Portal, is it that it's a puzzle that you're trans, you're moving around the puzzle? Like, is that the idea that you're oh, okay we can start with this? What happened, I don't think it, I don't think it started off as let's make a puzzle game. I think the person who was doing it was like, wouldn't it be cool if there was a gun that I could like shoot, uh, on one wall here, shoot another wall there and it would connect me between the two.
And then once they did that, they were like, oh, and, and through that play, through that, like building of that tool, you then begin to design puzzles. You can then begin to see the potential. And then once you start to see the potential, someone comes along and adds in a story and then that becomes, you know, it's an, a whole new game.
Do you ever, do you ever think about, okay, you know, you're talking about the empowerment of, you know, Call of Duty or some of these other things. Do you also ever just back into an emotional state where you might want to achieve, which is like the Walden thing to me sounds more appealing. Right. I, I'm not interested in what it feels like -.
Well, you're not going to play first person shooter, I don't think. Yeah. I'm not going to. But, but, you know, and I never thought there was a place for me to play a game, but I guess the question is -.
Have you tried? I have tried with my son. Meanwhile, hold on. But if there was a game that, you know, I could be riding horses, you know, and jumping across the, you know, I don't know. There's a lot of those. World of Warcraft you know. I don't know. Yeah.
But I think - Not, not in that context, I don't want to go in to - You could be an Orc in World of Warcraft. I don't want to go to the Warcraft place. Are there, yeah, I'm just asking Martzi, not you Jesse, I, whether you think that there is, you know, are people designing for a different consumer, I guess now and who's doing that? There are trillions more Candy Crush players than there ever was at Fortnite and I think -. But there's also just games that are super beautiful, where you're just working through beautiful, beautiful landscapes that, uh, you know, there's, there is entertainment, um, to the games that isn't. You know, a lot of people I know with my son, you know, he, he didn't want to, like when, when Avatar came out, he just could care less because he could be in Avatar.
He'd rather be in it than watch it. You know what I mean? But I want to know what Martzi has to say. No, no, no, I, yeah, there, there are those games and I think history wise, games have absolutely been marketed towards a specific demographic. Like, you know, and one of the things they said was like, there was the boys' aisle and the girls' aisle. And there, you know,
video game consoles came around and they were like boys. And it was mostly primarily marketed to them. But these days, that's not the case. And in fact, a large percent of like the mobile market, which is huge, is geared towards women.
I'm a passionate, enthusiastic mobile gamer and there's, and I think in America or in the west specifically, there's kind of a stigma around mobile gaming. It's not traditional, it's not proper and it's not, it's not a console. It's like, you know, but in a lot of other countries where mobile is like the primary device, a lot of people have, there's less of that stigma. So it's much more everyone is gaming.
And the specific games you're talking about, like one of my favorite games is a, essentially like a Pride and Prejudice game where it's like open world. I love visual novels. And there's great exploration games sometimes with really like weighty material. I think what remains of Edith Finch is about like, you know, understanding of family's history, really heavy games that drag in cancer, which is, uh, based on our, on a true story of a family, dealing with their, their child having cancer. It's, there's tons of games where, you know, dexterity or shooting or jumping is not the main mechanic.
It's more decision-making or more exploration. And those games are continually coming up more and more. I think Journey is one of the ones, um, that back in like 2015, that kind of opened up like the larger idea of like, you know, gaming to a game where it's just about helping each other and like exploring a place and like moving forwards towards the destination. We don't hear about those games as much, especially like once what I'm, I'm swimming in those games, because like, I work at a university, I have talk to students all day. It's all I ever see it. But when I talked to my parents or other things, I think, you know, we, we forget that they're prevalent and they're out there and that, you know, lots of people could, you know, gaming is for everyone. And then there is probably a thing out there that would make you happy.
And I think things like -. I don't know about that. I think mobile, or even VR, I bought a virtual reality headset for my parents for Christmas. And, you know, I got it for my dad. Cause I was like, oh, we can go bowling. But then my mom calls me up and she goes, oh, I've been using Tai Chi on the app. It's great. I was like, okay. You know, I think it's, it's more, it's a more open field than I think we even realized. So, you know,
let's say that you have a student and they have an idea for a game or you're just in a game company and everybody agrees. Yeah, this is a great idea. What is the first stage of creating a game? Um, the first stage of creating hopefully is some type of prototyping. What we tell our students is generally like paper prototype it. Um, and you know, we've had people who've gone out on like built field games to understand the mechanics of maybe a multiplayer scene. We say software is, is intensive. The, the cheapest, quickest possible way you can test a concept, that's how you should do it at the start and get. So is that you, you put it on index cards and you bring in 10 people and you sit around in a room or you put it on the wall. Like, what's that like?
Absolutely. Just that, just that come brainstorm, make a prototype, test the record, I play it yourself, fix it, modify it. Once you've got something that's kind of, kind of working, kind of, pull in outside people because.
The nature of interactive design is that if it's just you and you think, ah, this is great, chances are, you've missed a lot of things. Chances are you only think one way and have to pull other people in because designing a game for one is you can do that, but generally we want people to interact with it and understanding how multiple people interact is key to this. And so, yeah, we tell our students, I, the first thing a lot of students want to do is just open up and start coding.
It's like, you can do that. But if, that mistake is going to be more costly, if it doesn't work than if you try it on paper first. So, you know, a person who uses a game like Priscilla has one way path through, do do you think like, okay, you know, in order for this to be successful, there's gotta be three or four paths. And how would you define the paths through the game? You know. So you're starting to get into what is the game, which is a dangerous field Dylan. I think, you know,
there are interactive stories where, you know, it is the same, it is a story, the story doesn't change. And you know, you may click on different things. You may click on them in a slightly different order, but nothing you do will affect the end state or anything else in that. But it is interactive. Whether you want to call that a game or not. I, I don't care. I mean if my student wants to make that that's great, if my student wants to make something that has branching pasts and inner level of interactivity, that's also great. I do think in both,
you have to consider the user and the interaction, which is like more what I want to what, if I'm dealing with that, that's more what I'm passionate about teaching and making sure they do that effectively and with like, you know, and thoughtfully. So I like branching narratives. I like past. I like feeling a little bit of empowerment in my things, even if it's minor. And I think there are ways to tell a singular story, but have a player feel like they have agency. Yeah. Agency being choice? Yes.
Well, you know, it's also interesting hearing you talk about it because the way you sort of described, it's like a writer's room sitting around and you're breaking story really in the end, right? So it's the next and the, and the coding of it and the execution of it, okay, that's you leave that out, you know, there's that you have to figure that part of it out, but really what is the experience that we want to, or, or that we want to go after? It's really the experience. And my question to you is do you think that, you know, the gaming really is the next evolution beyond film and television? Is that the, you know, do you think of it that way? I mean, you're at USC, which has really arguably the best cinema school, you know? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I went NYU. Alright, NYU, whatever, there's a, there's a group of the top, whatever. I mean, but the point is -. Okay I only went for two years, but I did go.
Proud, the proud dropout here, but I mean, I think the question is, is, is, you know, it's really, we're still, still, uh, you're telling a story in the end. Right? And is it, and what does that relationship too, between, is development of a, of a game, a singular, uh, you know, is it a person by themselves or is it really that community? You know, a good TV show, you've got like a lot of writers in there, you know film it's a hundred people, maybe a thousand people working on a film, what's the, what, how is it as a group to create something? So that's the--- let me just talk a little first thing, um, which is, do I see it replacing traditional media, which is no, I think I, when I discussed this, I talk about lean forward, lean back. And there are times when you don't want to play a game because you, it, because it is inherently more lean forward of an experience than watching a movie or reading a book, even because you're, you're, you're actively having, you're actively having to engage with them and making choices. And like we discussed like choice fatigue. Like, that's why, you know, that's why the president--, someone else picks up the president's students at a certain point, like at the end of the day, you know, how much you want to do that, it's taxing.
And so do I think that traditional medium is going to continue to have to share that, that, you know, time slot or, you know, in, in everyone's life with other, you know, now competing media. Absolutely. But when people say, oh, you know, I can't wait to do VR cinema. I'm like, yeah, but that's inherently more lean forward. Even if it's just a story, the act of doing this, turning your head and looking around is taxing and we're lazy.
You know, the reason we're not going to get the keyboards in minority report is because no one wants to pick up their arms. Like, no we're going to use a mouse. You know, I do think there's, there's, there's places for both. Um, and as for the second part, you know, how big or how small something is it's I would say it's very similar to them. You know, you can film a movie by yourself, you can make a game by yourself and you can make a good film or game by yourself. Is it hard? Oh my gosh. Yes. Should it be done better with more people? Absolutely. There's tons of solo defs out there and there, they make great work, but I even, they, you will sometimes every so often like, oh, well I had a composer, oh, well I did this. You know, I made games with, you know,
three people and I'm very proud of them, but I've also, you know, like working in a larger team, pulling in more people, the ability to, to just, you know, see the, the, the amount of like exponential value increase in a large team, if done correctly. It's just the same as a movie. It's it's, it can be incredible. And I would say those cycles on a, on a, on a film and on a, you know, game can be very similar.
Sometimes games can even be very large teams and taking, you know, up to 5, 5, 4, you know, like long time to come out and look at duke newcomer can take a real long time. No. Now Martzi, you talk about the phone, right? You talk about the computer. You talk about, uh, uh, setbacks, you know, um, so much of the world seems to be pushing forward towards this, you know, call it the simulation where people are gonna gonna be online. They're gonna, you know, they, they might get something, they take a picture online, they put it on their Instagram. It's also on their LinkedIn, and then they push it over to their Facebook group.
And there's this interlocking thing of all these different things. Do you think that that is going to change the way we think about games or what's possible, you know, because a lot more complexity is possible. I think it's a really interesting question. I,
I think that there's two different kinds of answers there. It's like one, when we look at like medium, like movies or video games, or even, you know, TV shows, there's an element of escapism where we don't tie our lives into it. It's a break. Um, and so I think, and then, and then there's games that layer like tweak this, like, you know, there's like literally options to like, you know, tweet what level you're at, or like share your, you know, and so I think their games are trying to engage with that, like tie us into your life.
And then we look at streamers and all this stuff, like how we, you know, performative play and all of this. I think there's, there's a push towards that. But when we're in the magic circle, how do we want to be reminded of it, of the outside world and vice versa? And so I think there's do, I think it's possible to bridge it? Absolutely. Currently, I don't think anyone's doing it successfully. And I, you know, I, I stand to be wrong on this. I think we do talk about tweet about games, but when, when we were actively playing games and using that social connection, it's not common. I do think there's like possibilities to do that. I do think that's one of the best places for augmented reality, which is very difficult to design for game wise.
But we look at games like Niantics, uh, Pokemon go, which I think is one of the most successful examples of augmented reality game play. Um, I think we start to bridge it there the most, because like they're having meetups, they're meeting in physical space, they're sharing, there's like, there's an inherent nature to like interconnect more and because they're going out to physical locations, I think there's a lot of play there. And I think that's, it's a very interesting field. I think it's like, definitely I think you're right. I think it will head there. Um, but how we do it and how we disentangle life from play, which will be interesting, you.
Know, um, augmented reality, uh, so far it hasn't really, you know, it's not like it's in a hundred games. Right? Do you think that something, and I, I think that your field of interest is the way things interact in real life. So do you think that this'll be a part of it that, that, you know, sort of discovering things in the real world will, will have an application in gaming? Yes. I think again, I think it's easy to look at things on screens. I think it's easy to look at things in a box. I think, you know, augmented reality is physical. It's, you know, it's,
it's more lean forward once again. So do I think this is going to be adapted as our standard, like, you know, this is the future everyone's going to be doing this. Maybe, maybe not, but do I think it's going to be a thing that we do and continue doing that? I feel we'll expand it. Absolutely. I think that there's, there's so many, so much cool things you can do. And I think the term internet of things,
which is like, let's put, you know, Bluetooth and toaster, um, no, they're, they're literally are app connected to your toasters out there and we laugh at it because it's ridiculous. Yeah. But it's a lot of work, you know. Why do I need a toaster, but you know, if all of a sudden I'm playing a game and like my toaster goes off, like, because it's interconnected, I think there's some really cool potential things there. And so, you know, it starts with like know, does your, the hue lights, the, you know, app installed lights in your apartment, like flash, when you, you know, you get shot on screen, that's, that's like, that's cool. You know, and then we can expand it out from there.
I think the more connected devices we have, the more we can start pulling gameplay into the real world, but it's, you know, it's difficult, it's Tricky, no one wants to share their APIs, you know? So like that is very hard, but I do believe that, you know, the more interconnected those things become, the more potential is there. Um, so we'll see, we'll see if that happens, but I think it's a very cool field. Yeah.
I wanna ask a not interesting question, cause you're really talking about entertainment, but when you think about how to use like the augmented reality, um, you know, for sort of more serious purpose. So I know there was a while back, just the, I think they were trying to deal with, you know, uh, um, people in a, in a Syrian refugee camp and using augmented reality as a way to kind of really use it for the other, you know, to use it for empathy, empathy, or to create shared experience. So we can all, you know, do you think about that? Are any of the students thinking about how to use some of this, you know, these incredible tools to really figure out, you know, a more, you know, pro-social or social justice, you know, twist and what, what what's going on with that? Yeah, absolutely. I'll call out, um, a organization called games for change, which has like, you know, a festival every year, um, which celebrates and awards games that, um, essentially do what you're describing here. I think there's,
there's a little pushback, especially in the AR VR world of like empathy generators, where it's like, you know, you put on like an incredibly expensive headset, you know, feel poor. And it's like, there's, there's a danger there about, you know, I think missing the mark, but at this time I do believe these can be powerful tools to highlight and motivate change. I think informing is, is, uh, is getting information out, like understanding how assisting can be imbalanced are all, especially in terms of system design is all stuff that teams are very well-suited towards, but at a certain point, I I'm always wary of someone whose like, you know, we're going to solve this through gaming, um, would be anything else. And then the other half of it being like, I commented with the headset, like, you know, we talk about accessibility and Walden's a great game and it's powerful, but it doesn't run on the majority of Chromebooks, which are what the majority of students in America. They don't have, you know? And so, so to Tracy's credit, she's got a grant, um, and she's working on adapting a version so that it does, but I think, you know, technology is expensive. And so in the hands of the people that you can do, who have that technology, you can do a lot to inform and motivate and like give direct calls for action.
But in terms of using technology to assist, you need to get, you know, what you need to work in, what people have access to. And so I think that's when I, when I talked to my students, they're like, I'm going to make this VR game. That's going to like educate all of us. I'm like, okay, but who has a headset? You know, and it's. Don't, you have to start with that same process you described on paper before you even get to how you generate the empathy? Yeah, exactly. And, you know, you, you like, and there's ways of test that,
like, you know, okay, do you have an SPC, have a person act it out, like, you know, test it out that way. Um, which is, you know, an important thing to consider. And then once again, mobile, every, almost everyone, lots of people have a mobile phone. And so once again,
like I think that that stigma of like, you know, oh, mobile gaming, Hey, it can be incredibly impactful too, because it's in the hands of so many people. Um, uh, does your, what does your brother do? Um, um, my brother is so cool. I could spend the rest of the time talking about how great my brother is. My brother Will Campos is a screenwriter. He is a podcaster. So he plays a tabletop role-playing game that has a big following called Dungeons and Daddies, which he and his friends play dads from our world who have fallen into the forgotten realms, which is the world in D and D are trying to rescue their sons and get out. Um.
So does, I guess he's, is he still cause you guys have been playing video games for, do you ever get together and play video games now? Yes. No, every dog he's also in Los Angeles, so, um, I mean, yeah. And it's so funny cause he wrote a show called video game high school, which is on Netflix. Now he's the one who got me, I would say into gaming, like, um, so is he, does.
Does he know what you do now? Is he surprised by it? Um, I think, you know, I think our parents were probably more surprised because if you would ask them, what are your children's going to go into video games? Um, they would not have picked me probably. Um, well, I've actually been lucky enough to get my brother to do writing for one of my video games and we're actually working on another one together. So, um, yeah, we're not only do we play video games together, but we're developing video games together, which is so cool. g. What moment did it go from playing games together to making games? You know, it's, it's funny because it didn't start until, until grad school in terms of, I mean, well, okay, let me let, let me rework playing games before we were making games where we were playing, like, you know, when we were, we were my brother and I were exceptionally close as kids. Like the age gap is very small. And so, and we discovered very easily that ninja turtles fit perfectly on top of my little ponies. And we're like, well, clearly this was designed this way.
But when you, when you heard the voice. But when you, when you heard the voice go to grad school, was it his voice? No, weirdly though I do have to, he has credit for it because it was a why I moved out. I graduated and moved in with my brother I'm in Los Angeles because I was like, I don't wanna live with my parents. So he was, he was finishing up his time at USC for undergrad and he was playing Dungeons and Dragons. He introduced me to his group and I met a girl there who was in the grad program. And honestly what attracted me to the grad program initially was she described theme park design and that sort of physical interaction, which me doing installation work. I was like, oh,
and I have been continually playing games. I've been playing role-playing games, like my D 20 earrings on right now. Um, and so, you know, I think my brother was like very focused on screenwriting at that point. Um, and so initially would've pulled me back into grad school was, was the idea of like physical locations. But then when I put those there, I was like, well, anyone can make a game who, well, I didn't no one telling me. So, and then I started that and I, I made a game with a colleague of mine and my brother liked it.
And we were like, get in, come on, make them do the writing for the next one, because you know, I'm an artist, my friend's a programmer. We did the writing between us, but we could get a real writer. And then all of a sudden it took, it, took the next game in the series to like a whole new level. And we're hopefully getting started on the third in the series. I have a question. I have a question that everyone wants to know about haunted radio.
What is haunted radio? Um, okay. So, uh, how convenient I have it here with me? This is clackso. So does the clock, so, uh, radio hour and I'll, I'll start off with saying that I really like the Halloween section at target. And so I had done a lot of physical computing at that point. And, um,
so that means like basically, you know, little microcontrollers building and tearing apart things. And so when I was at the Halloween section of target, I was looking at these Tallinn props and I was like, could I do something with this? Could I, you know, take the guts out and turn it into something else? And so I stopped. Take the guts up and then put it back in the store without telling anybody. That's the next step. That's the next I'm I do some drop lifting. Um,
but I bought the radio and I played a bunch of little jingles when you turn the dial. And that was it. And I brought it into work and annoyed my coworkers. And then, um, we were all looking at it. They're like, why'd you do this? And then, uh, I was driving home and I call and it came to me in a flash and I called my friend immediately. And I was like, it's, it's an interactive radio drama, you know, where you solve a mystery. That's what this radio is. And he was like,
and to his credit, like he immediately was like, okay, let's, let's, let's, let's build it. And so we sat down, we wrote an interactive radio drama where you make choices for the lady detective through the dial. So just, you know, snapping the dial left and right. And this lights up, I think it went to sleep for a little bit, but, um, um, and basically it's an entirely audio based game. Um, and you find out why you can not only, you know, who the, who done it of it all, but why this radio is talking to you in the first place, you know, spoiler alert and might be demonically possessed. Um, yeah.
So, and then we've actually had great success showing it to the point where we made an actual an app so that you could actually just play it on your phone if the radio is a bit Oop, one of a kind. So, um, yeah, that's, that's kinda, that's the klaxo radio hour and it was find. It like if the audience wanted to, how do we. Just Google K L a X O uh, on app or Android play and you can, you know, play it on an app and that's the entire radio dramas there. Or if you really want, you can contact Jesse and I, and I guess we could build you a radio there, there should, uh, there was a Kickstarter for, um, uh, indicator, which is an independent games festival. And one of the top tier rewards was to, uh, was a, was a radio. So we do owe a couple of people to, to new radio.
So those will be out in existence at some point. I'll hear you hear it's lightened up again. Nice. Wonderful. Well, Marty, thank you very much.
Really appreciate you being with us. Yeah, no, this was a, this was a blast. Thank you for having me.