Part 7: Visa Founder and CEO Dee Hock: One from Many: VISA and the Rise of Chaordic Organisation
Stay, hungry stay foolish. I. Guess. The time has come where we've got to finish this up. It's. With a heavy heart I do it it's, been fantastic. And, I've learned so much it's, a mixed feeling I have I have to say you, know all, good things come to an end sometime, or another they. Do indeed they do now we better get into it I don't want to lose any time so. Today we've covered up until your, present. Life you've mentioned, that you've lived many many lives and we're gonna cover your, present, life so. This is the 36, years from age 55, to the present which cover your current activities and what the future holds for all of us today. We will go beyond your book and cover a series of your essays your philosophies, which are all available on your website which I'll share at the very end, but. The question I have for you is at 70, what. Drove you to devote your life without compensation. To. The seemingly, impossible task, of realizing, those, for burning, objectives, that followed, you throughout your life to. Create massive societal. Change yes. A not well, I decided, that although. I thought, the four objectives were. Literally. Impossible. After a year of travel, and talking, to people I, came. To realize that there, might be some, slight chance, of realizing, them, and. Then. The question was did I want to devote. A large chunk of my life to, trying to realize, that and. I. Became concerned. By. That time I had seven, grandchildren. And. I. Was very concerned. That if, we had massive, societal. Failure. An institutional. Failure. They. Might. Not have a very livable life. That. Led to the realization. That, they. Could not have a livable, life unless, all, grandchildren. Had. The same and, I didn't, want to, risk. That. Someday, they would find out I'd been asked to try to do this and I'd refused, because. I couldn't think of a sensible. Answer I could give them. So. I decided. That I would plunge, in and do it and, it. Was based upon an, understanding. That I had developed over the years. About. The kind of societal. Change we need and. A. Realization. That we're emerging, from a society. Based upon. Industrial. Production. For. More than a century, dominated. By, the. Separatist top-down. Concepts. Of organization. The nation-state. Corporations. And so on and, that. We were emerging. Into an extraordinarily. Complex. Diverse. Global. Technocracy. We're. In it's. Increasingly. Possible to, produce at any point on the globe a unique. Product or service, for a single, individual, located, in any other point. And. The production, of goods and services in. My. Perspective it progressed, from the age of, handcrafted. Through. The Industrial. Age, which. I think is more accurately, thought of as the age of machine, crafting. Into, the, so-called Information. Age which. Can best be thought of as the age of mind crafting. Since. Information. Is nothing, but the raw material. Of that incredible. Processor. We call mind, and the. Pseudo mind we call computer, and. Software. The tool which which we shape, information. Can. Best be understood as. Thought where, since. It's clearly a product of the mind. The. Age of machine, crafting. Was. Primarily. An, extension. Of muscle power through, use of fossil, fuels, and, the. KRT cage as, I call it is primarily, an, extension. Of. Infil power. Now. The very. Foundation. Of such a society. Its. Neural. Networks. If you will are the intricately. Webbed. Global. Data communication. Systems. That are just emerging in, an enormous, rate and just, as. The human, body is, organized. Around. Biological. Neural, system. So complex, as to. Defy description. So. Too are, these increasingly. Complex, global. Electronic. Neural networks, evolving. An inter connecting. So. It seemed to me that at the age of, handcrafting. The. Dominant, forms of organizations. Were the all-powerful, churches. Kingdoms. And Han craftsmen's, guild and, just. As the age of machine, crafting. Ended, their dominance. In favor. Of hierarchical. Nation-states. And corporation. The. KRT cage must, have the dominance, of today's societal. Structure, and give. Rise to new ones more, in harmony with human, spirit, and the, biosphere and. Changes. In the existing, organization. And the organization. Of new ones, are. Going to have many characteristics. In, common. Just. As the human, body is not a vertical. Hierarchy. With. Each part, superior. To another in a sending. Linear, order. Organizations. Of the future will not be so structured. These. Great pyramids. Of superiors, and subordinates. Will. Have to yield to, affiliations. Of. Semi-independent. Equals. Whether. They be individuals. Within an organization's. Or. Organizations. Within a larger, whole. And. This is not to say that all, present. Industrial. Organizations. Are doomed. Evolution. Is rarely that crew. Evolutionist. Patient, though it's inexorable. And most. Of them will evolve our slowly.
And Painfully. Into. A form, in which power wealth. And information. Are, more. Widely dispersed, and commonly, shared and. The. Concepts, of organizations. Composed. Of semi autonomous equals. Such. As visa the, Internet, Linux. Software the. United religions, initiative. And. Wikipedia. Has. It tensa, fide the endless, debate, as to whether, competition. Or. Cooperation. Should rule the day and, each. One has passionate. Messiahs, to preach its virtues, and, the. Messiahs on both sides are wrong. Competition. And, cooperation are. Not contraries. They. Have no opposite. Meaning. They're. Complementary. In. Every. Aspect, of life we, do both. Schools. Are, highly cooperative, endeavors. Within. Which scholars, vigorously. Compete. Olympic. Games combine, immense. Cooperation. In, structure. And rules. With. Intense, competition. And events, as. The. Runners, leap, from the blocks, competition. And cooperation. Are. Occurring. In a single, indistinguishable. Blur. You. Can look at it this way every, cell in our bodies. Vigorously. Competes, for every, atom of nutrients, swallowed, and every. Atom of oxygen inhaled. Yet. Every, cell consents. When. The good of the whole requires. They. Cooperate. By relinquishing, their, demands. When. The need of other cells, is, greater. Life. Simply, cannot, exist, let, alone reach, its highest potential. Without. Harmonious. Exists. Of competition. And cooperation. Now. No. Societal. Commercial. Or governmental, ever and ever. Has ever. Existed without, at least some, combination. Of the two. The. Whole of human history has, always been a race without. A vector. Between combat. And compromise. Between. Concepts, of power and concepts, of service. Now. Cooperation. Gone mad results. In the mindless, pursuit, of equality. Then. Uniformity. Then. Use of central, office force, to achieve it and that. Means ever-increasing. Coercion and eventual, slavery, and. Competition. Gone mad. Results. In mindless. Efforts. To. Pursue. Self-interest. Abuse. Of others, retaliation. Accelerating. Anarchy, and eventual. Chaos, and. Only. In a much more harmonious. Oscillating. Dance of both. Can. The extremes. Of control, and chaos be avoided, and, peaceful. Permanent. Societal. Order, be found. So. If there, is relative, harmony, between, these two opposites.
They. Drive one another, the more we compromise. The. More we compete, the. More we compete, the more we need to cooperate and. So. On indefinitely. And. I. Believe in organizations. The future, it's going to be much more important, to have, a clear, compelling, purpose, and, sound. Principles. Within. Which many short-term objectives. Can be quickly achieved. Than. Any long-range plan. With, fixed, measurable. Objectives. Organizations, of the future. The. Centuries-old. Effort, to eliminate judgment. And intuition. Art. If you will from. The conduct, of institutions. Will change. Organizations. Are too long a, traditional. Mechanistic. Military, model. Wherein. Obedience, orders, is paramount, and, individual. Behavior, or independent. Thinking frowned upon if, not all together for business. So. In the future it's going to be necessary, every level that, people. Capable of discernment. Of making fine judgments. And, acting. Sensibly, upon. Them, the. Industrial. Age trend. Towards, stultifying. Degrading. Rote work, that. Gradually. Reduces, people, to the compliance. Subordinate. Behavior, one. Expects, from a well-trained, horse simply, can't continue. It. Extends, far beyond the factory, worker on an assembly, line. Vast. White-collar. Bureaucracy. Exists. Everywhere. With. Mountains, of procedures. Manuals. Depressing. Mines. Avalanches. Of directives. Burying. Judgment. Forests. Of reports, obscuring. Perception. Floods. Of studies, in the dating, initiative. And, oceans. Of committees, submerging. Responsibility. And drowning decisions. And, everybody. Knows what I mean. We're. All, experiencing. And have. Endlessly. Suffered. Through it and. Worship. May, be inflicting. It on others. It. Has created a society, people. Alienated. From their work and from the organizations. In which their unmatched. Far. Too much ingenuity, effort, and intelligence. Goes. Into, conforming. To or, circumventing. This. Mindless. Sticky. Web of rules and regulations.
By. Which people, are needlessly bound. There's. A quote that I pulled that encapsulated. What he just talked about and you. Said in the book bureaucracies. With mountains, of procedures, manuals. Depressing. Mines avalanches. Of directives, burying, judgment, forests, of reports, obscuring, perception, floods. Of studies, inundating. Initiative, oceans. Of committees, submerging. Responsibilities. And drowning decisions. And. Unfortunately. That's where a lot of organizations. Are and the bigger the organization, they're more they, are in that world and, you. Got, there a long time, before many others you realized this was a burgeoning problem, and you dealt with it when you put feasor together when you let. Visa, emerge, from. Having. Good principles, and having good people put in the right places and then empowering, their human ingenuity. But. With the awareness that you, had and that you, have now what. Did you do without awareness where did you go next, well. I had, become. Convinced. Through the year of travel, that there was some slight chance. That. Maybe we could realize, the four objectives, we discussed, in our last session. Therefore. I decided I, would devote. My, life not, to the ranch and to study, but. I would come out of that and see if I could in. Some, way catalyze. This, kind of change and, it led, then. To ten years, of, effort, that is, just almost impossible, to. Describe I. Was. Contacted. By, an. Amazingly. Diverse, group. Of people that were seeking, help. Among. Them was an, alliance. Of, fishermen. In in the Northwest, Atlantic. Fisheries. Off the coast of Maine, who. Were attempting. To. Devise. Some, way to. Restore the. Fisheries, which were literally, the state of collapse, from. Overfishing. Another group was an initiative of, family, farmers, a. Wondering. How they could come together in. Some sort of an alliance. That. Would preserve, family. Farms. And. Organic. Locally, grown produce. Another. Group that came to me was a societal. For organizational. Learning, which. Was a group. In MIT. Based. On work Peter. Singie had done. And. They, were trying, to organize. This, so it could, emerge. Internationally. In a series, of fractals. I. Was, contacted, by Ralph. Nader. For. Help with is something, he called the apple seed foundation. In. Which he was trying to create, a. Series. Of organizations. In which lawyers in, every community, would. Come together and, volunteer. Their expertise. To. Find. Whatever. Was, the most. Compelling, legal problem. In that community, and. Find. A solution to, it. Another. Group was the a. Series. Of states. Each. Of which had a large. Amount. Of geo data, but. It was in silos, in each state, and they were trying to figure out how to coordinate. That, nationally. So that they could develop much. More useful view, data to, solve. Some of the environmental, problems, and, then. I was contacted, by an interesting, fellow who is the former Episcopal. Bishop of, California. Who. Had created something called the united religions, initiative. Where. They. Wanted, to, bring. Together people, from different religious. Persuasions. At. The grassroots. Level. But. To try to put an end to religious. Violence. But. They simply, had no. Of how to organize, it, and. I was contracted. By the veterans, healthcare, system. As. To, how this could be applied to. Revolutionizing. The, healthcare. And. I had educational. Systems. Contact. Me and I. Had no alliance, of energy, producers. And. Even. To the point. That the chief of staff of the Army asked. Me how I could apply. These to, the organization's. Of the Army and the. Secretary. Of Health Education and, Welfare. Contacted. Me and. To. Do this was impossible. To advise all these groups and to see if any of them could replicate. The. Visa experience. And, some. Other foundations. Offered. Grants, and, in. Order to accept. Those grants. Was necessary, to form a, not-for-profit. Chaotic. Alliance. Which. Had, a small staff of three and then six and. At. One point as. We were developing this. We. Received, a letter from a law firm in New England and. It. Asked, if we, were to receive, a million-dollar anonymous. Gift, what. Would we do with it, but. The donor potential. Donor wanted, to remain anonymous so, I wrote back, and. Outlined, how we would use this to try to, create. These, organizations. And realize the four objectives and. And in. Response, we had a million dollars, deposited. To the bank account of the chaotic alliance. With. A letter that simply, said they were. Familiar with work, we were doing believed, in it and wanted. To support it. But. I quickly, became, ran. Into. The. Impossibility. Of leading. The formation. Of groups of this kind. As. I, led visa. Because. To create these organization. Requires, leadership. From. Within the, individual. Groups and, then. Them able. To find their own recent source and funding, and. The. Difficulty. Of developing. Leaders. Capable. Of replicating the. Visa experience. In all these other areas. Was. Simply, impossible they. Didn't exist. And.
So. I could. They. Simply couldn't, understand. And implement the concept. So. I could, only act, as advisor, to. These, groups, and that simply. Didn't, work. Occasionally. They had great success. The, for. Example the united religions, initiative. Is now. As. Fractals, in virtually, every country in the world, but. By and large most. Of. The. Ventures. Simply. Disintegrated. They didn't go on, and. Meanwhile, this. Was leading me into dozens, of speaking, engagements. In the US and overseas. Having. To run the small, not-for-profit. Having. A ranch to, run. And. Growing. Family, took affairs, three, children, seven, grandchildren and. Furl. My. Wife. Love. Of my life, had. Developed, some illnesses. And, it. Just wasn't practical. For. Her to continue to live in the ranch and I had. Also a growing, loss of hearing I'd lost over half my earring. So. With. All these pressures, there, had been no time to. Fulfill. The contract to, write the book. So. In, 1990. At the age of seventy, I was. Pulled in a hundred different. Actions, and, just. Physically. Unable, to. Continue. The the ranch. Or. To. Continue. All the work I was doing something. Had, to be done. Throughout. All of this, I had never stopped, rising. At. 5:00 in the morning every. Day, for. Two or three hours of study before I started. Work on all these things and. It. Led to another. Understanding. Of. The. Magnitude. Of. What. Would be required to, create a, global. Organizational. Change. And. It has to do with something I called. Krusty. Which I could. Probably explain, a little bit, just. So your listeners. Can understand. The magnitude. Of what's happening. And. During. These years a new perception. Was gradually. Merging. And. It was based upon trying, to understand. The history, and effect, of a. Single, fascinating. Capacity. The. Capacity. To receive. Utilize. Store. Transform. And, transmit. Information. Which. For, purposes, of brevity, I just took the, first. Letter, of each one and call it Krusty, see R Us TTI. Capacity. To receive. Utilize. Store. Transform. And transmit. Information, and. I. Don't mean information. From the common. Misconception. Of, alphanumeric, data. But. From Gregory Bateson's. Incredible. Perspective. That. Information. Is a difference, that makes a difference, if. Something. Perceived, can't, be distinguished. From. Its surroundings. In a relevant way it's. Just noise. And. If it can be, differentiated. And truly makes a difference then. It becomes, information, and. As. Such, it's. Capable of informing. Us of. Forming. Within us and. Allowing. Us to formulate, differences. That can make a difference to others. Now. To understand. This, capacity. It's. Essential, to really start, at the beginning, beginning if. You. Examine early, examples. Of single-cell. Life. It's. Apparent. They possess, the capacity. To. Receive, store, utilize. Transform. And transmit. Information and. In. Fact it precedes. Even, such simple forms. For. To do that is the very essence. Of DNA. And. It. Even precedes, DNA. For. When physicists. Attempt. To examine. The. Smallest known particles. Of matter, the. Matter the. Particles, change their, behavior. And become. Waves, and, when. They do the. Physicists. Change their, behavior, in response. So. The particle, and the physicists. Find.
Themselves, In a fascinating. Quantum. Cosmic. Dance and. Clearly. Each of, them is. Perceiving. A difference, that makes a difference, they're. Exchanging information. Now. In ways we, haven't begun, to understand. Information. Escapes. Particles. Transcends. Them and, binds. Them, together into. More complex, systems. Within. Which all particles. Constantly. Exchange, information. And. That seems to me a principle. Of evolution. Perhaps. The. Fundamental. Principle. That. The greater the capacity. To receive, store. Utilize. Trends, Foreman transmitted information. The. More diverse, and complex, the, entity, and, that. Holds, true, from. Neutrino, the. Nucleus. Atom. To. Amino acids. To proteins. The. Molecules. To. Cells, to, organs. And to. Organisms. Or. You might say from bacteria. The bees the bass to, birds, the. Buffalo, and right on through to baseball, players. But. Krusty, didn't stop, there, in, time. Information. Transcended. The boundaries, of organisms. And led. To communications. Between them. Whether. The dance of the bees the, pheromone, of ants the. Sonor of bats the song of birds or, the language of people. Once. That capacity. Transcended. Organisms. There. Was immediate. Evolutions. Of, complex. Communities. Of organisms. Hives. Flocks. Pacts, colonies. Herds. And, tribes. Now. Let's follow, that capacity. With respect to, our own species. Throughout. History many, of our finest, minds, argued. That. The two characteristics. That most distinguish. The human species are. Memory. And language. And. Memory. Is nothing, but the ability, to store. And, recall images, and. Language. Is nothing, but the means to share those images. So. Over, the centuries. As a, species. We've ascended. A ladder of. Diversity. And complexity. With. Language, information. Escape. The boundaries, of a single mind, and. Experience. Could become shared and. Immediately. There was a corresponding, like, leap. In. Idle diversity, and complexity, and, with. Written language came. Expansion. That which could be, manually. Recorded. And personally, transported. Immediately. There. Was another leap, in. Societal. Diversity, and complexity. And. Leap. Has followed, lead, each. Exponentially. Greater and, more frequent, with. Mathematics. Came expansion. To. That which could be commonly, understood. By. Means of a global, language because, that's all mathematics. Is as a global, language. With. The printing, press came expansion. To that which could be mechanically. Recorded. Address boarded a. Library. After all is nothing more than. The collective memory of the species. And. With, the Telegraph. Came. Electronic. Alphanumeric. Capacity. With. The telephone. Came, phonic, capacity. With. Television. Came visual. Capacity. Followed. By multimedia. Capacity. And each. Was. Immediately. Followed, by an. Even greater leap in societal. Diversity. And complexity, and. You, could almost. Para, face Einstein's. Famous, quotations. To, say, that the capacity, to relieve, receive.
Utilized, Or transform. And, transmit. Information. Results. In societal. Diversity. Time. Societal. Complexity. Squared. But. Then all of a sudden it happened. With. The explosion. Of micro electronic, technology. In the last quarter, of the 20th century, we. Developed, a thousand. Times, better. Algorithms. A, million. Times, more, computing. Capacity, per. Individual. And a. Billion. Times, more mobility. Of information. And. Software. To efficiently. Navigate. That immensity. Of information. Is, rapidly, emerged. The. Truth is that the entire, collective. Memory, of the species. Will. Soon be no more than a few keystrokes away, and. We. Haven't begun to understand. The significance of, all this, let. Alone the societal. Diversity. It will unleash, or. The institutional. Change that will demand, and. Yet. That is nothing, compared. To what lies ahead. Already. Present. Or other, revolutions. Of enormous. Ly greater significance. Such. As nano and. Biotechnology. And. Simply, stated. Nanotechnology. Is the. Engineering. Of self-replicating. Assemblers. And computers. So. Tiny, they, can manipulate atoms. The. Basic, building blocks of nature as. Though they were bricks. The. Necessary, science, has already been discovered, and. All that remains, to be done is the engineering. Of tools at. The, atomic, scale and, that's already, well along in. His book engines, of creations. Que, Eric Drexler a pioneer. In the field of. Nanotechnologies. Wrote. That when biochemist. Need complex, molecular. Machines. They. Have to borrow them from cells. Advanced. Molecular. Technology. Will eventually let, them build their circuits, and nano. Machines as. Easily. As engineers. Now. Build, my crook zippers the circuits, are washing machines, and. In. Answer, to the question what, could we build with these, atoms. Stacking, mechanism. Marvin. Minsky a professor, of science, at MIT wrote. We. Could manufacture, assembly. Machines. Much. Smaller even than living, cells. Make materials. Stronger. And lighter than, any available, today. Hence. Tiny, bug devices, that can travel along capillaries. To enter and repair, living cells and. The. Possibilities. Are just a. Profound. And. Scarcely. Imaginable. And. Yet. There's, nothing really, new in, all this. It's. The fundamental, technique. Which nature, is used, to. Create everything, since, the beginning, of time. Whether. Trees, monkeys. To climb in them or people. To cut them down. Information. In the form of DNA is, endlessly. Replicated. At no cost and, distributed. In seeds a. Process. Of replication. Driven, by the power of the Sun begins. Molecules. And cells assembly. On the spot in. The known patterns, from, atoms, and surrounding, it boy air. Soil, and water and. In, the case of Apple animals. This. Replication, happens. Not only on the spot but on the move. And. When such creations. Are no longer viable nature. Breaks them down into. Atoms. Once again. Reef. Or Recreation, into something new and useful and, it's. A never-ending effective. Non-polluting. Chain of events, of. Ever involving. Diversity. And complexities. No. Factories, no waste no too spoiled, resources. No. Pollution, no McKenna's, mechanistic. Organizations. And no. Command, and control. Nature. Does it all, with. The dirt complex, diverse. Flow, of information. Which. Mobilizes, physical. Material. Into. Both animate, and inanimate, forms. And, you. Can search in vain in, the universe. And all of nature. For. Any hierarchical. Mechanistic. Command-and-control, form. Of a day organization. Such. As those we created, to manage the Industrial, Age that.
Now Dominate, our lives. Well. The question, becomes, how soon and how likely are these things and, we. Noted it need only remember that a few decades ago. The. Atomic, bomb was scarcely, a theory. Travel. To the moon a fantasy. Television. The dream of a few odd engineers. A. Plastic. Card for the global exchange, of value unthinkable. And. Genetic. Engineering. Securely. Locked, up in, the, secrets, of DNA. Yet. None, of these had, a better, theoretical. Or scientific. Foundation. Then. Nanotechnology. Or, biotechnology. Has today, and, none. Were being driven by the incredible. Force of change, now. Common, through. The, world, and. As micro, technology builds. Down and nanotechnology, and. Molecular, biology. Build, up they're. Going to come together. Within. Two or three decades, for. Better or worse. We. Will be constructing. Products, and services, from the atom, up and, this. Capacity. To receive, store, utilize transform. And transmit, information will. Be at the heart of it, the. Message is simple. Fasten. Your seat belts, the. Turbulence. Has scarcely, begun. We're. In the midst of an explosion. Of societal. Diversity. And complexity. Much. Greater than, we can possibly, imagine. And we're going to manage such, an explosion, of societal. Diversity. And complexity. With. Our cake 17th. Century. Industrial. Age concepts. Of organization. And management. Not. The chance, of a snowball. In the, Sahara, Desert. Within. A few decades we. Will look upon our present methods, of organization, and management, as. Quaint, relics, of. An archaic. Industrial. Age and. If. We don't our, descendants. Will be forced, to live through a period, of social. Carnage. And environmental. Devastation. Too. Horrible, to. Contemplate and. One. Only needs to, look, today. At. The corona virus. Endemic. Which. Is rewriting, the face of society. So. If any of your listeners think. To perpetuate. The old ways. They. Should try to recall, the last time evolution. Rang. Their number, to. Ask their, consent. These. Things are happening and, we. Will either adjust, to them or, we. Will self-destruct. D, it's such, a pleasure to listen to your philosophies, and you're, calling out these. Realities, that many. Many world. Leaders and business leaders and organizational, leaders aren't paying. Heed to and. Unfortunately. The best way for a human being to learn is experience, and that's been thrust upon us, there's. A paper written in 1956. By a renowned, cognitive. Psychologist, called George Miller and he, published a paper called the magical, number 7 plus or minus 2 and in. That paper he outlined the limited, capacity for processing information. For a human being and he, argued that although the brain can store a lifetime, of knowledge in its, trillions, of connections in.
The Brain like. You can and like you have done and portrayed, in, both this show and throughout your books. The. Brain is limited, on average, to holding seven pieces of information in, conscious, and awareness at any one time so that's the rationale, the magical, number seven, plus or minus two the, reason I bring that up is you. Had so much on your plate literally, like you reminded, me of a, picture of somebody, keeping. Plates on top of sticks and keeping them running and, with. That you had the, demands, at home your. Own health. And physical, challenges, and then. Feral. And then the, ranch and these, things that you were really drawing you back all the time and throughout your life you always, managed so many things, but. At this stage you had to start letting some things go in order to proceed. With life so how did you manage that wine down of things well, Eden. I was. Seventy, pulled in so many different directions. And. I was aware that my. Abilities. Were inevitably. Going. To decline, physically. And. Eventually. Probably. Mentally too I, had. Some successes. During, those years. But. There. Was a growing. Realization. That my beliefs, and, the work. Were. Still, decades, ahead of their time and. There. Was a compelling, need, to. Conserve. And, concentrate. My time and energies, and. So. I, was. Faced with what, to do next and. I. Decided, that it was. Time to, simply pull in my horns. So. Over, the next five years. I, sold. The ranch I. Withdrew. From the chaotic alliance. We. Moved to Olympia, Washington. To. Be near. Our youngest, grandchildren, I. Gradually. Phased out all my speeches, and travel. To. Concentrate. On family. Writing, the book I was obliged, to write and. Advising. Just a few selected. Organizations. And. So. I bought. Two acres, of land, overlooking. The water in Latika Washington. Near. My daughter and, grandchildren, and. Returned. To gardening. Oil. Painting. Which I loved and I'd had to give up. Lettering. And carving, stone, and. Shortly. After we moved there. Within. The course of six months I. Survived. A double knee replacement. And. Colon. Cancer, and a heart attack. At. 86. Years. Of age, firls, health declined. And, I. Became her primary. Caretaker. Until. Her death two, years ago, after. 75. Marvelous. Years together, and. So. We. Moved to Olympia, in. Just. At the turn of the century and, the. 20. Years since I phased everything, out and. Now. At 92. My. Firm my wife having died two years ago. I, find. Myself. Writing. Another book, taking. Calls and, receiving. Visitors, from. Around. The world who, are moving in the direction of. More. Equitable. Autonomous. Organizations. That. Are more in harmony. With the human spirit and biosphere and. More. And more people are discovering. My. Book and work and, so. I have no shortage, of people who. Who. Are contacting. Me and I guess Aidan. Your. Call is is. Among, them and and. Our. Joint decision, to do, this series for, your listeners. And I suppose I could, end. It all by simply, saying. To anyone who's, listening that. My. Abiding. Hope and, deepest. Wish for them all as. That. They, could also, dream. Their dreams and. Realize. Them. So. That's, probably, a good place to leave it before. I thank you immensely, I pulled. A quote that I loved, from the book because I think you. Mentioned it there. This. Coronavirus. Is only the start of some. Chaos. That we're going to encounter. And this. Is a quote that I found so, positive. And hopeful, and it goes as follows from, your book. We. Are not helpless victims, in the grasp of some supernatural.
Force, We. Were active, participants in, the creation of our present, consciousness. From. That consciousness, we created, a present, internal, model of reality, from. That internal, model of reality we created, our present concepts, of organization. And accounting, with. Those concepts. We created, our present, society, we, did it all of us we. Know that we must do better, we. Know that. We must do it together and, we. Must come to, understand, that search together must, transcend, all present, boundaries, and allow, self-organization. And governance at every, scale from. The smallest form of life to the living earth itself, it. Will take time it. Will require great respect, for the past, vast. Understanding, and tolerance of the present, and even, greater belief and Trust in the future it is, an odyssey that, calls out to the best in us one. And all. D, I mentioned, that quote, because it inspires, me it talks, to the essence of this show and I believe, you. Who answered my call I called you several times over, a period of two years and he eventually agreed. But. I feel we connected, on some level and I, know you don't embark, on any project, easily and when you do, you do it wholeheartedly and, from. The depths of my very being it's been an honor a pleasure and a privilege thank. You for educating me, for influencing, me and for inspiring me on countless. Others and I hope so, many people will, hear this show and your knowledge will be shared and I'll do my very best to share it, founder. And CEO emeritus. Of visa and author of the birth of the chaotic age and it's, updated version, one from many visa. And the rise of the chaotic, organization, dee hawk thank. You so much for your time on the beautiful conversations. We have shared thank. You so much it's. Been a pleasure Aidan and, Aidan, I very much appreciate. Your interest and the. Opportunity. To discuss. My. Life with, you and to. Share some of it with, your. Listeners. I've. Had a marvelous life.
Aidan. I I. Simply. Couldn't possibly. Ask for more and. And. I don't know how many more years I've got but, I'm, excited, about them and and. Can't. Imagine, what will happen next so, I. Guess. We'll both find out and then and we'll know in a couple, of months how. Your listeners, respond, to this and I'll be interested, in knowing, you. Can find these work all, about his books, you. Can find them on DW. Hakam. De, e WH. O CK, dot-com. And E is still active, on Twitter, as well where you can find them at T hawk thank you thank. You again.