Martech Talks #2 - Frans Riemersma | Liminal

Martech Talks #2 - Frans Riemersma | Liminal

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Welcome to MarTech Talks The Liminal's Podcast that brings you interviews with business leaders who are at the forefront of the Digital Transformation of Marketing and Sales departments so that your business can also grow in this new technological era. As a MarTech specialist Liminal has been able to improve the marketing and sales results of several companies, ensuring the conditions for business success in the new digital era. With Liminal, you'll have access to experts who will analyze, design and implement marketing and sales strategies and operations. All this, supported by technological systems such as CRM, Automation and Marketing Analytics. Create your digital business ecosystem with Liminal. Welcome Frans so nice to have you at our podcast thank  you so much for having me looking forward to   our conversation uh the more we talk about  martech the better i think that's it that's   it at liminal we've been working with friends  in martech tribe for the last couple of years   taking part taking a small part in this huge  venture that is the martech landscape and which   we'll be talking about in a minute france is one  of the top 10 martech influencers in europe and   in the world for two decades friends has been  designing martech martin technology stacks for   companies like hp adidas audi unilever phillips  ikea carlsberg volvo and the list goes on and   on what an amazing experience you've got on your  belt my friend so uh is also a university lecture   on the subject of digital transformation uh  it founded martech tribe and now he joined   forces with scott brinker to deliver the new and  updated martech global landscape congrats on that   friends thank you so much yeah it's a lot of  work but we can't do it with people like yourself   so thanks to you oh thank you thank you thank  you very much regarding the martech landscape   since first published uh over a decade ago the  number of commercial martech solutions mapped on   it as expanded exponentially from 150 to almost 10  000 within little less than 10 10 years as i said   what sort of opportunities do you think this  formidable growth in martech solutions brings   to a typical smb company and and also what advice  would you give to business leaders out there on   how to take advantage of these opportunities yeah  it's it's it's both uh an opportunity and a threat   you know it's a threat if you don't um dare to  dive in um and it's an opportunity if you do now   not everybody is tech savvy enough to dive into so  find people that can help you or educate you but   the thing is you know every company is not only  using more software they become software so you   can imagine that more and more companies they have  a mobile app of course they have that website that   becomes more and more important you know adding  functions like e-commerce and and those kind of   things payments and then you have the upcoming and  uh rising my websites like you know my portal etc   which is often uh homegrown and from all these  touch points you you yeah basically you could   say you become a software company so last week i  opened uh as a keynote my my presentation saying   to the people um this morning you woke up and  thought you were working for an automotive company   tonight you will go to bed know for sure  you're working for a software company   amazing that's that's so true that's the thing and  i think you need to uh up your skills and um there   are many companies we work together with and then  we see uh yeah there's fear there's uncertainty   um and as you pointed out there are  only more and more tools coming up   so um yet to lower maybe the fear  that here's a doctor's recipe   i would recommend you know try a new tool and  there are a lot of free tools out there and you   don't have to try the big guys only you can try  especially smaller ones play around they have a   free trial for just i don't know 10 15 minutes um  because if you don't understand the tool by then   it's not you it's maybe the tool so you know  and this will give you a comfortable feeling and   um well you just mentioned the fact that we're  um assessing and validating a lot of tools and   we have now almost 10 000 tools globally and we  do it with people like yourself and maybe you   can confirm thiago but many of those people tell  me wow that was a lot of work but i learned a lot   amazing and and i i have a good feeling of what  is out there all those tools the different flavors   you know what it's the best education i got in  martech so far and funny enough um the last decade   when i work with consultants and i onboard them  the first step is always you know check out 100   vendors and then they always go like are you are  you nuts why i mean that's that's boring and why   should i do it just do it you know and then a week  later they come back and you go like thank you   so much i learned so much and they you even can  see in their attitude you feel much more secure   and safe and clear and they know what they don't  know and that's the most important part because   martic is all about you know there's a lot we  don't know and by the time you think you know it   there's new features so i i i gave it a shot  four years ago five years ago with uh 10   students from a university back here and um we  went through 2000 tools and gave up you know   it's just too many it's you couldn't and um and  then we thought you know by the time we are done   and i think back then there were six thousand  maybe seven thousand by the time we're done we can   start all over again because the features changed  completely yeah so this uncomfortable feeling of   not knowing everything um is is is something you  have to face it's something you know play around   and then you know more than enough and then you  will see suddenly in your meetings internally but   also with sales representatives from from software  companies you you feel so much more secure you   know what you're talking about you know what  you don't know you can ask the right questions   to fill in the gaps in your knowledge which  is very human and normal and then take it from   there so especially um well not especially  smb uh companies also at corporates i see   the same thing there's a lot of you know we're  basically overwhelmed by the tsunami of martech   that came in the last 10 years completely  agree you have to put yourself out there   expose yourself to the discomfort  of not knowing and being a foreigner   and not being a digital native to all this um you  know explosion of tools but also it's not about   the tool it's about your mindset as a business  leader you know it's a development mindset or not   uh i i like that you're on the money because now  now that you know some tools you you get a better   feeling of what is out there and and just leave  them you know for a couple of nights and suddenly   it will come it i think it automatically comes  to you and go like that is a great tool i will   never use it because it doesn't fit my strategy  and that's exactly what you want you know the   business leaders need to understand is this a tool  i can use or or not is it serving our strategy or   not and all too often you see that business  leaders make one very big mistake and it's   a bold thing to say i know i'm sorry but they're  really big big c level people out there that say   i want a fully flexed seamlessly integrated  future-proof solution yes keep dreaming that   doesn't exist and it's not that the tool doesn't  exist maybe maybe i don't care but your strategy   will change in the next three years because  there's a pandemic there is you know on a   geopolitical uh skills something else happening  or competitors arise that suddenly conquer the   market because they have ai or what so don't try  to mortgage the future it's impossible so always   i have a very simple rule of thumb if you if you  build your stack you build your tools you find   your tools you know make sure you cover the tools  that um make money today so you have tools like a   crm prints that makes money for you today you see  your client base you see your opportunities cool   and now think of how does my strategy look like  for the next two to three years where i will try   to distinguish myself from competition and and  that's not like 10 new tools is maybe one or two   features or maybe a module from one of  those crms or tools you have already   and then take it from there and of course you  can experiment with new tooling ai driven i'm   not stopping you there you can still do  the doctor's recipe i told you you know   and are very much encouraged to play around and  experiment but to really make value out of martech   business value make sure that it covers your  current business model the way you make money   today and the next two to three years and  beyond that you cannot think you cannot   we or you have a crystal ball well i haven't seen  one but you know it's impossible to know what's   happening in the next two to three years it's so  important that concept of the business model and   the future that you have envisioned for for it  um being at the center of all the decisions you   have regarding technology because it's not  it's not really about digital transformation   it's about transformation digital transformation  is an ongoing process which will never end   yeah and and i'm fascinated um by what you just  said i would like to learn how you make that link   you know how can you make that translation between  you know the strategy and technology because i i   sense often and i would like to learn from you  the fear of decision so making a decision and   say yes it's a great tool we're not going to  use it because it's not fitting our bill and   is that something you see in your daily practice  with as advisors and consultants to our customers   we've reached that same conclusion many many times  and uh it's it's art because it's even harder for   the the customers the clients who are paying to  make that experiment um but at the end of the day   you have learned which way not to go and that  is so precious because if you've learned that a   lesson before your competition you're one step  ahead of them and that that's a very important   point i am that's another question i receive often  from clients where they say um yeah but what you   are advising is you know putting the basics in  place putting the stuff in place for the current   business model in the next three years but uh  why will we be a head of competition we need ai   we need an ai driven cdp or whatever magic word  they're using and they go like if you have this   in place you will outsmart them outgrow them in  the next three years you know beyond but first   have the basics in place and what i often see is  a collection of software rather than a stack and   they have not been integrated yet there's no plan  behind there's no customer data model there is no   marketing architecture behind it there's not even  an alignment with i.t if you ask i.t whatever is  

the policy they normally say we have one but it's  in my head and you know even big corporates and   then by all means make sure you have that  somehow nailed down and not in every detail   it's more like you know guard rails to explain  this is our martech governance structure this   is when we onboard an off-boarder system and this  is what you need you know as a system of records   a tool that helps us with the current business  model and this is tools of innovation you know   you play around pick and choose as long as you  can comply with you know legal uh terms that's   it legal like uh privacy uh gdpr yeah so uh we're  a great uh uh you know chat this was uh and um   thinking about the portuguese market  um and the the you know we've also   seen a great growth in the number of martech  vendors here in portugal uh and we're now um   we now have more than 120 solutions of marketing  and sales technologies made in portugal it's it's   a well-known fact that portugal despite  being a small country and even economy uh   as an amazing track record of innovation uh of uh  and and technological state-of-the-art startups   you know for instance we outrank all this  all the countries in southern southern europe   in the number of startups valued above one billion  dollars you know unicorns like feedside talk desk   outsystems farfetch and what i would like to know  is thinking about the portuguese martech software   houses and makers innovators what do you think  is most notable uh in this in our own landscape   um thanks for asking um as you know we have a  big database of ten thousand vendors uh software   vendors and we know where the headquarters sit  so 120 residing in in portugal and and we did a   little bit of research of course in preparation of  the podcast and we see that um relatively speaking   there's a lot of commerce and sales tech as well  as management tech which is more like project   management type of stuff and talent management  so that's really striking maybe you have ideas   why that is the case and and what we also see  is that they have a similar amount of social and   relationship type of tools so we're talking about  customer success crm social publishing but less   relatively a small piece is content and experience  which is a really hardcore martech area so   um i'm not sure why that is i was thinking you  know i can imagine that maybe in portugal people   like you know to emphasize and streamline the  way we collaborate and and have a sales focus   so that's why we have commerce and sales tech and  management tech collaboration tooling out there   and and but less in content and experience and and  that's striking because content and experience is   not only i think uh becoming the future but  um so after cdps have been adopted i think   then we know what our clients and leads are doing  across all our touch points we also want to talk   back you know with relevant content snackable  content so i think content becomes very important   and especially here in europe we have this  challenge of many different languages you know   and many different um strategies per country and  that's much less in in the states though so i i   was expecting from a european country more content  a type of tools content driven and they're great   tools out there zoom guide i don't know if you've  seen that one you know ai driven story writing   it's it's fantastic but yeah i see uh other  tools like unbabel um the translation is so cool   and and uh or planless you know the one for  projects all all three i just named are ai   driven and it's really state of the art and i  think that's that's really a great next move   so if i tell you about these differences compared  to europe compared to the world what do you think   yes um it was surprising to me uh when we started  working on this portuguese martech landscape   almost two years ago the the sheer  number of of uh companies um doing that   um also we have um you know a very innovative  um mindset in what entrepreneurial in this new   generation of entrepreneurs who are already  um we have a an engineering background okay   and they've they've been also  seeing these these opportunities um   and probably uh you know the the scale  has to be bigger you know um has to be   greater the scale of these these companies so  that's why i mentioned the the experience with   our own unicorns none of them you know purely  in our tech uh startup but they understood   that in order to compete around the world you  need to to to have you know a faster pace um   strategy and and a greater um organization um and  this is what i think for our martech companies in   portugal we would uh be um it would be of value  to them you know to grow not not just you know   finding the uh the gap uh in in what  portuguese uh martech um landscape uh exists   but you know finding the way to scale it um  outside of portugal yeah and then you're touching   upon a challenge that you see in europe in martech  is the scale so we have a lot of countries so   you don't your home market is not necessarily  big you know maybe germany france uk of course   but then those are the bigger countries so  um yeah that is norm normally a hurdle and   it's much to be learned from indeed far-fetched  and outsystems and talk desks those companies   how do you do that and then again there's  another phenomena that's very interesting   so there's there's a long tail of martech  right so the head is around 500 tools and then   9500 are smaller ones and um we had some  conversations scott brinker myself about this and   we basically could link or yeah we thought that  the creators economy so many people that are just   digital nomads digital natives that think you  know i don't need a big company i don't need to   be stock listed i don't need to have an ipo i have  a brilliant income no boss this is great you know   and maybe i don't need to skill so what i think  shopify calls in e-commerce mom and pop stores   you know maybe there is some phenomenal like  mom and pop software i don't know and there   are people that say i don't need a big company so  i think that this aspect of the creators economy   the gig economy is also out there where you  have smaller companies and you don't need to   grow you don't need to scale yeah that's great so  thinking about these portuguese martech vendors   that are now in the early stages of a go-to-market  strategy friends um what would be the best roadmap   for them to conquer a worldwide market  that is dominated mainly by us brands   um yeah it's it's coming back to the whole market  right so if you have a big homogeneous uh market   um it's it's a lot easier to scale so and this  is one of the things i discussed with uh jonathan   from actito a belgium company they have four  languages right officially in their country   or are three but a bunch and the thing is that  it gives a tremendous advantage in how you set   up your tool because you have to have your  database ready for multilingual and i'm not   only talking about the content that your clients  put in there but also the labels of your software   um so those two aspects it's it's something  you know maybe trivial but that's one of the   many examples that can slow you down and they  now have something very scalable very robust   but imagine a company in the  us starting at the same time not having to conquer those hurdles they can  scale up more easily and they have a bigger   base you know but then they have the problem of  okay how do you conquer europe so it's it's um you   know a double-sided uh type of challenge um so i  i would say yeah one of the strengths is you know   multilingual multi-strategy multicultural currency  multi-legal maybe even because yes we have a   european union but not everything is synchronized  in terms of legal so um and and that's that's a   big challenge make sure you get that in place  and in in the case of portugal i think spain is   a very similar market you know and then maybe you  conquer france italy and maybe that's the approach   another one uh could be go to uk and try  to establish something there i've seen   some canadian sorry norwegian companies  do that with great success so they first   had some clients in their own home market but  then moved to the uk opened an office there and   because uk is the biggest martech market in europe  just so we know and it's also one of the stepping   stones for many uh american companies to you know  to conquer europe so that might be also a strategy   i'm just telling you and you know echoing of all  the stuff i see happening i'm not sure if it helps   yeah but it's great great advice yeah um you've  said and and i completely agree with you that the   history of the development of martech has mainly  four stages you know coming from the first decade   where um crm you know and it was all about having  clients there in one place uh to a second decade   when it was all about marketing automation  and having leads all information of a prospect   in one place and now we are in the era of data you  know big data we don't talk about big data that's   further proof that we are  on that era it's it's normal   um and cdp's customer uh uh data platforms  uh coming to place and probably these are   my thoughts on that uh maybe substituting the crm  category in the near future i don't know probably   um so and you've also said that the next decade  the fourth era of martech will be all about   content and making making sure that um we  customize content to each of our customers   unique contexts right so for a company that is now  on the early stages or stage of martech using the   basic tools from a crm how can they leap frog  from this stage into this fourth stage that you   mentioned using automation data content experience  technology um that's that's a very good question   um yeah it starts with crm you need to have  an idea of what your client is doing and uh   there's yeah you said maybe cdp's will replace  crm or maybe crm will reinvent itself so the   first stage was just i think the first crms just  replaced the excel sheet because that's the very   very first crm that everybody starts with and  then your next step is a real crm but it's it's   okay maybe it's just a rolodex on steroids  initially and so then but the co wants you   know sales forecasting because that's what the  investors or the board or the owners want um and   and then you go into more opportunity management  and then funnel management so then you get your   your reinvented type of crm and crm is now also  becoming very important because of first party   data so i think crm will reinvent itself and  renew itself and by the way we see this with all   kinds of technologies so cms reinvents itself with  headless you know it's it's amazing and the same   is now it's spreading into headless cdp headless  e-commerce so yeah this this reinvention of these   categories is is happening all the time so  i think crm is the number one second is is   marketing automation your lead management  very important and i think the cdp era um   is and i you probably will see similar things  happening and by all means share that with me   um in your practice is that with cdb we're  really trying to understand the client   what on earth are they trying to do with  their product and what on earth are they   doing and understanding when we talk to them  communicate with them by all different channels   and because frankly we don't have a clue and  i think this cdb era is really the era of   marketing because in the core marketing is really  understanding the client you know qualitative   and quantitative data it's the first time you can  connect your gut feeling to data and the other way   around and then say okay this is what a client  really wants and and there's a simple thing that   i always advise i teach at business schools and  universities and say please create a persona and   the first question is isn't that outdated maybe  but it's your exercise for you to understand   um how do i connect what i always feel and felt  when i'm talking to a client linked to the data   that we have already in a crm in a marketing  automation tool and now suddenly you go like   hey i understand what they're trying to solve  and i don't need a new cdp to find the 200 000   data points i now know with my persona exercise  there are only three or ten and the rest you know   are satellite data points they're just feeding  into those ten main ones so that is the real   i think step to getting to a mode where you can  harness a good understanding of your client into   your stack into your because a stack technology  you know that's where your data sits so it's it's   the two things together and and i see a lot of  people that you know come to me and say i need   an ai driven cdp why because we don't have enough  data yes you do you have plenty of data you just   didn't crunch it yet yeah but it's not telling me  what to exactly you're the marketer you should try   to understand what the data is trying to tell you  because if you open up a cdp you implement it it   will show you a nice customer journey and i've  done some trainings you know with uh cdp tools   um and then my my question is always okay great  we have this customer journey it's visualized and   it's cool you see from which point in the in  the funnel they're going to another point and   some people flow back and now what does this  tell me what do i know now about the client   that i didn't know before why are they going  back is it a piece of content that's missing   am i not understanding a cta right call to action  that's that's the real conversation and only if   we understand that point we'll go into the fourth  decade of content because then we know what to say   and then we can produce that snackable content  yeah and that would add to that so personas would   be a first corning stone you know a milestone to  to to get a good grip on because you would you   would know all the data points that you need and  that's such a great advice maybe you don't need   that many data points great advice and i would  add to that uh also business process mapping   and optimization um and that has to do  obviously also with customer experience and   customer journey uh mapping um so before you  think about thinking about technology you have   to you know go back to the drawing board and yes  yes and and it will help you to save you know it saves you from buying the wrong software or  software you don't need and and that's the most   important thing if you buy or purchase or use one  piece of software tell in one sentence why you   need it and what will break down if you don't use  it switch it off for a day i you know this is what   uh startups say you know to understand if your  tool is sticky with your custom base switch it   up for a day if you don't get a complaint you know  start a new business because it's not working and   it's the same here i mean and and you don't have  to switch it off literally probably you'll have a   downtime every now and then and then you know but  that's very important and then what breaks down   what process or even what revenue will you miss  if you if it breaks down that is so important and   and then you bring it really back to the core of  what you really need yes there are 10 000 tools   out there but probably only five make a difference  for you and and that you can only find by asking   this single question what if we don't have it  what breaks down what can't we do and still then   you can purchase a tool for experimentation's  sake so in some cases we say please reconfigure   your crm because it now it has a new function  you know after 10 years you implemented it and   update your marketing automation tool and play  around with the cdp the cdp market by the way   is still evolving it's not that mature  compared to crm compared to automation   because it's younger you know but play around so  by the time that you have fully harnessed your crm   automation and everything that's linking  into that um in the next three to five years   you're good to go with cdp and then you will  blow everybody away and then we'll be a real   turbo booster so yes start with your cvp today  but don't present it as a cornerstone presenter   something we're gonna play around with and then  we really need to crunch that data to get those   data points and fully understand what the client  means yeah starting with with a small pilot uh   that's that's perfect and one question that it  always comes up you know the old and eternal   question build or buy because you know last  year martech alliance um our friends at the uk   they reported last that's about 55 of customer  uh data platforms marketing data platforms were   either custom developed or incorporated into uh  off-the-shelf some of the shelves solution um so   why do you think this still happens this 55  percent uh surprised me and um is it really   better to build a tailor-made solution solution  than to buy a best-of-breed off-the-shelf solution   very good question uh there are two aspects  to this specifically to cdp's i would say you   know it's an immature market um a young market  maybe it's a nicer way to putting it it's it's   absolutely great software out there don't  get me wrong um but then there is also um   i see some of those cdp initiatives driven by  it and and they're really savvy with that stuff   and they sometimes say you know what i use  a public cloud and then i can build my own   i can create a golden record i can make sure  we have all the references in place and then   in a data federated way feed into other systems so  that is a great thing this is about the maturity   of the technology so that's one aspect but there's  also another aspect of how mature is your company   so if you talk about the hype cycle of  gartner they apply to the market in large   at large and in companies you also have a  hype cycle so sometimes crm is maybe not   new in the market but new to your company and  you will go through that same hype cycle and   the idea is about the hype cycle when you're  crossing the chasm so at the bottom or in your   deepest you know depression as they call it  or valley of despair or whatever that is the   most beautiful point actually to achieve to reach  it shouldn't be too low but make sure that by then   you know exactly what you need that's the time  you should start building maybe stuff yourself   because by then you know this is those three core  features i really need or those two modules i   don't need the whole enterprise thing i just need  these three things and then you go out and see oh   that's interesting i need a and b and for a  there's a best of breed but for b there's none   and we need to do it ourselves and we spoke you  know in a preparation about healthcare and pharma   but also real estate those are industries that  sometimes come up with their own cdp or their own   crm and say we have our own because we're slightly  different so there you see that the maturity in   the market also can be adopted in the maturity  of the reflected in the maturity of the company   so um and again here just like with cdp's  earlier i'm not saying don't ever build you   can play around and if you talk about build  by the way in some cases um google sheets you   know or excel it's the duct tape of martech some  some call it you know you can play around and and   do a rapid prototyping and see what you really  need and then go to the market and say hey   there's a nest of breed so but really build  a crm i would do after you know crossing the   chasm and before that i would just play around  with uh you know integrations there's beautiful   stuff like um ipas tools you know integration  platform as a service where you can connect   different platforms yeah play around with  that and then after the chasm you know   go fully fleshed in outsystems type of solutions  you know and and i've seen i see this at companies   but only if you know your requirements  well otherwise you're just trying to become   a software vendor and not the one you know that is  specific in automotive but just a software vendor   and that's and that's dangerous yeah sorry  don't run after the train you know that there's   a a perfectly established market um that is  developing you know the next um generation   of crms for instance don't go after that trend  unless it and unless what you've just said is true   and and it's such an uh interesting view on that i  would also add that if for instance your business   model depends on that if your data and your  uh and the relationship with your customers   uh depend on that particular tool maybe you you  are better off with a you know a tailor-made tool   a hundred percent absolutely and you see this  sometimes in the um the system of records like   crm and automation but only if you really know  what two or three aspects of such a tool are   are keys for your business uh you see it more with  systems of differentiation so those are the that's   the next layer so they they you know those are  systems that set you apart from competition and   we're talking about product uh configurators or  dealer locators those kind of tools that you know   make you dif yeah there i can imagine that you  go for a build um in that case yeah so we're just   almost finishing our amazing conversation  and i've been learning so much from you   friends thank you but i still have one  final uh question you know regarding   the growth of this software market and and vendors  it's it's absolutely noticeable as we've said um   but i think that there is still a gap uh in  the market that has to do with how we answer   the following question um how can we  use these technologies to deliver growth   uh to our business and we've talked about that of  course uh during this um this conversation but to   me the the the answer is as two sides you know i  believe that from the customers the client side   i mean the the end users the marketing departments  and sales um there ha there is an increasing need   to have a chief martech officer for instance or  in martech or martin opps uh that has a clearly   defined role and ownership regarding this this  matters on the other side on the supplier side   um agencies uh consultants uh you know there  there is a need to have more companies like uh   liminal and martech tribe more consultants  doing what you and i have been doing uh   how can a an smb company um that is now starting  its digital transformation journey achieve success   um using you know uh with the help of a martech  consultant um what i think is it's of course a   a knowledge booster you know in injection  and all the experience so and and what you   see happening is that you mentioned it already  that the role of marketing ops which is not so   familiar and and common in europe but it's the  role of that business savvy and tech savvy person   you know that can translate i.t requirements into  marketing and the other way around those people   are invaluable you you really need those and give  them a budget give them a title give them a a   mandate um and and then take it from there and and  they need to define the guard rails of okay this   is when we use a tool and this is when we off  board a tool so i see like i said i don't see a   lot of stacks i see many you know collections of  software and that are not integrated they don't   talk to each other and the legacy is humongous  so they're you can't switch them off because   um there's a lot of data in there um so recently  i worked with a supermarket retail chain   and then they said from now on we will and it's  it's really a big operation um we will uh set up a   team of people that will focus on exactly not only  finding the right tools but also decommissioning   them so implement with decommissioning in  mind um that's really where you go into   what i call a plug-and-play architecture you  know you switch on switch off stuff and pretty   easily not only technically also data wise and  and i think this is a role that it cannot do   marketing cannot do this is typically something  marketing ops do and we did some research and   we looked into how many people and companies have  and marketing ops team so in the states it was   over 80 percent in europe it's 30 and there were  some other additional 30 that have a marketing ops   team but call it differently um and the ratio also  difference between one market one marketing ops   person and to five marketing people that's what  you see in smb in the large corporates it's one   to 15. so and that's an interesting rule of thumb  if you want to size up you know and build some   marketing operation teams and capacity  then those are very important numbers to   to play with and to see what type of  budget you would need to set up such a team   yeah great advice friends um this  is all the time we have for for now   uh thank you very much for coming to our podcast  it was a pleasure and an honor to have you here   and i've learned so much with you thank you same  here i i would like to thank you again you know   for helping out with the european super graphic  and the landscape finding all those tools an   amazing job and as you've seen in the super  gratitude graph you are on the top there so   thanks a million without you guys we can't do this  so great stuff thank you thank you friends so this   was the second edition of liminal's martech talks  podcast liminal is the first portuguese company   that specializes in strategic consulting  and martech operations we've been helping   uh clients to grow their business through  marketing strategies and technologies such as crm   uh automation business intelligence in  this podcast we will continue to bring   you interviews with business leaders that are at  the front forefront of the digital transformation   of marketing and sales departments so that your  business can also grow in this new technological   age thank you all for being with us today and  we'll see you again at our next episode which will   have none other than Scott Brinker as our guest so  you are all invited thank you thank you very much   Start transforming your business at liminal.pt

2022-06-13 12:54

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