James R. Fitzgerald
Now. Your host, Jim. Mallard. Well. That was fun the intro music kind of got went all crazy, but that's okay hopefully. You're hearing me better now than the intro music if not let me somebody good, grief that was bad okay. Looks. Better going out so that's okay my, guests tonight FBI. Profiler. Me, Anders are. You a best-selling, author can I say best-selling author just make me you know complete, this. Say. A almost. Best-selling author almost, best-selling author. Accomplished. Author how's that sound will. That work for you now there you go there. You go mm-hmm. James. Fitzgerald do you mind if I call you Fitz for the rest of this so we don't get confused because I know, we. Probably will. Well. I don't think either of us will be confused, Jim, but your listeners may be confused, so yes I insist, call me Fitz okay. What's. That I would I, would, have worked kind of into the different areas you can't you've got four, book is there another one coming out I've got four I don't, wanna make sure I don't miss anything. Yeah. Jim my original plan was to write three books and divide into three categories, that's, a the title of all four, of them and, the three that are published already our journey. To the center of the mind I've, always been a Jules Verne fan growing up and his journey to the center of the earth so, when I started looking for a book title to kind of describe journey, I was taking through, life and of course exploring, the minds, of, criminals. Before too long in my adult, career I figured, that would be it I also borrowed, from Ted, Newton and the their. Song from the late 62. The center of the mind but I put the indefinite. Article, in front of it so my title technically, stands alone a journey to the center of the mine book one's about growing up in Philly and all, the machinations. Of being a kid in 60s, and 70s, my first investigation, at stickers of age in, which I didn't make an arrest but I recovered my stolen bike and I was kind of proud of that with, some interesting investigative. Skills I employed and then, you know bullies and getting into running. From the cops for various, things look back relatively, innocent it, ends with me graduating, the police academy, and so then you state police academy, in Hershey book. Two is entirely about my eleven years of Bensalem Township. Police officer Ben Psalms the northern suburbs, of Philly and I, was there for 11 years officer, plainclothes, detective, patrolman. Sergeant. Detective sergeant, and then, ad wanted the politics, got so bad there's a bunch, of middle chapters about that I finally, said I kind of move on so, I did and I eventually joined the FBI in 1987. And I had a 20 year career with them book, three covers. My I was going through my whole career, but I couldn't meet the deadline to get it out in time for the manhunt, miniseries, so, I, ended, it with a final, long chapter, on my role in the, Unabomber, case so, book, three is 87, to 95, my. First seven years as an FBI agent in New York City a bunch, of mob cases, serial-killer, cases pedophile. Cases, a bizarre, case involving. A. Woman. Who thought her father was a serial, killer and, I explained, how that all worked out including, and we maybe will talk about this a little bit later some. Psychics, that got involved in that case, since. I know we kind of focused, on the paranormal, when, you're on your podcast Jim, and then so. Anyway I went to that book with my last day you know actually, the sentencing, of Ted Kaczynski, and book. 4 which, will be out in 2019. Will, be the second half of my FBI career, which, covers my whole time as a profiler, at, Quantico, the FBI Academy as well, as a forensic linguist. Because after the Unabomber case I slowly, got involved with language, as evidence, so, a lot of the cases I worked in that time frame from. JonBenet Ramsey to anthrax, to DC, sniper they, actually involved language you bits and pieces of it and some actually helped solve those cases and that's. What before will be about so thanks for asking again well, I guess I want to jump there I was gonna start with early in your career but I this. Language fan kind of baffles. Me because we're, all speaking quote-unquote, the same language, so how easy I guess Easy's not even the word how, difficult, is it to pick, up the little. The little details to help you crack these cases. Well. To a trained. Person. Or. Someone. Who becomes an expert I certainly wasn't an expert, at the time of the Unabomber case but. As I wrote in I, see it goes through all my books so far even as a kid I've always had a fascination with, language. And my. Parents didn't go beyond high school I was the first college, graduate in my extended family but they were always very much, readers. Certainly. Newspapers, and-and-and, books about history biographies. You, know fiction, you name it and they they.
Imparted, That upon me and my mother taught me to do crossword, puzzles and Scrabble. A first thing a little kid oh that's weird what's that dumb puzzle, but you know I would play, with it on my own sometimes, before she, would get to it and and. And I found well language is kind of a cool thing then, I got into cryptograms, a little bit later we get the substitute, letters for, other letters and I, would always cross out the clue some newspapers, they'd give you know a equals. You know D at the bottom as a clue I just like squint my eyes and cross it out I didn't want the clue after a while so, I always had an interest in in, language and then, lo and behold I, get thrust, into the middle of, a of. An investigation, that's been going on for 17, years, that's, you know bomb which, of course was an acronym which stood for university, airline bombings, and I go out there in 95, and here, I'm already an investigator, a gumshoe detective special. Agent using, all those tricks. Of the trade and methodologies. And techniques, but that, that stuff hasn't worked in 17, years on the Unabomber case no, fingerprints. No no even, the early days of DNA, no hairs and fibers. You. Know indented writing anything like that nothing, that proved of any value anyway and and. I'm, a brand-new profiler, I went through 12 weeks of training I devote a whole chapter that I think, chapter 19, in my third book was, chapter 20 is the Unabomber and, it's, all about me learning how to be a profiler, and it's. A whole different skill. Set it's based on investigative. Skills but, you then take it over into the behavioral. Tradecraft. If you will so now I'm at at nuna bond they called me up and said a gin you do 30 days out there. And duck so we don't confuse anybody hey Fitz will you do 30 days out there and. And. I. Said I guess I can do 30 days in San Francisco, and that. 30 days turned into about a year and a half total and after, 17, years at. About the 17 year eight month point, the. Case was solved, with a guy named Ted Kaczynski, being identified as our, suspect and from that point on having, used language, in the and the, miniseries man on portrayed, that part, relatively. Well it, really was language, that we used oh we, almost weaponize. The you know bombers language to get it out there and let's get somebody else to recognize, this stuff and we, had all kinds of calls it, wasn't just a guy named David Kaczynski finally. Someone named David Kaczynski calling the folks who watch the miniseries or certainly have read my my, book 3 they'll, they'll pick up on how all this came together then, all of a sudden he just fit into the many. Other suspects, we had but, they sent me this 23, page document, I read it compared, it to the manifesto, and called, off the boss because I was back in Quantico, at this time call, up the boss that said guys you've.
Got Your man and they said come on back outfits, and, within six weeks he was under arrest and. This this is perfect because that I told you yesterday, that I had a question about this that, we. Always watch an interview with you and it got it got voided, I'm glad you brought me right to this point because. You called it the needle in the haystack but okay, so you have comparable, writing, samples, to from, the Unabomber in this guy how. Do you work I guess it's forward, now that you've been you know spent the. FBI spent 17, years and millions, and millions of dollars on this now you've got it but. You don't really have it you've just got one. One. Shred of hope here then it might be that guy so how do you how, does everything turn from there and get, you, actually. Buttoned. Up to get him actually, get them. Well. I mean it. Didn't happen just overnight I, mean, when, I went out there I'm the first one and and. Again I don't want to keep repeating this I'm sure not all of your listeners have, watched the, miniseries, you, know maybe they could but, it does make a big deal out of a term that I gave the writer, called. Idiolect. And I didn't invent this term, was before me did, but. It's a to, found sounds idiolect, and it's basically it's. Defined, as a person's. Individual. Or personal dialect. And we. All have one I grew, up in Philadelphia and, I've. Sort of worked my way have of traditional. Philadelphia. Dialect, features and, that came up in the miniseries when, Sam. Worthington we, know it's all building with a script when, he uses the word water to. Describe water, h2o. And and, people, kind of made fun of him but, then he realized and this actually happened in real life to me in San Francisco, and, well you actually can tell something, about someone. By. The way they talk and I, wonder if that carries, over into the way they, write and I. Actually met with a well-known. Linguist at Georgetown University. He had just retired his name's Roger shy he, was given a copy of the manifesto, in advance he, went through it he saw some routes, to the Chicago, area in, the manifesto. As if, the author may. Have in fact been born or raised and read, the various, Chicago, newspapers. In the 40s 50s and 60s. Or. Even a little bit later than that and, and. I said well you can really tell that from someone's writing style he said yes you can we, all know southerners, or you. Know perhaps T. IME is pronounced, time almost, like there's an A in there whereas, northerners, will say time like a long, I we, know about those sort of obvious, things but, there other features, too that we, use in language, that, are that to the trained ear. Observer. Specifically. Linguists, can pick up on and say you know what you. May not know where this person is living right now in their life but, this person was born and raised in you, know the mid-atlantic states New, England perhaps, the northern cities that's a dialect, region Chicago, Detroit Minneapolis, those. Or. You know the deep south Texas. Has a couple different dialect, areas Pittsburgh, western Pennsylvania, has its own dialect. Features. Yin's, out there know that right Jim yes there's my sis thinking that's. Why. I you know in in the Pittsburgh area for this pronoun. You. Why, you many. People say yen's what are you doing, tonight we're. In Philadelphia and, New York and some other states they may say what are youse doing tonight whereas, we all know, the. Word U is singular and plural with the same spelling why are you so all these little features come together and you, can actually build a picture to some degree, of the, kind of author you have and the Unabomber wasn't, easy, he was spelling, some words and some strange ways he was using alternate. Spelling's or English Spelling's, they weren't incorrect. They weren't even non-standard. Linguist don't say mistakes, they would like to stay standard, or non-standard language, usage, but. The one thing I picked up on early was in paragraph, 185, of the manifesto. When, he use a short paragraph it's a few sentences and, that it ends well. You. Can't eat your cake and have it too and. As I wrote my book and I think even Sam portrayed, in the miniseries the. First time we went through that I didn't really pick up on that I read, it the second, times I mean I'm, 180 five, paragraphs. Into the manifesto. And I'm just trying to capture. Everything this thing is trying to say the theme, does know topics, look for obvious, words that, are different or deviate, from the norm so, I read it the second time I think the day or two later and I say Wayman however I wanted to define you can't eat your cake in Abbott - that's.
Not How we say it this. Guy does Unabomber, whoever, he is he's, a word. Perfectionist. He's a wordsmith he's, basically made no mistakes, in his thirty five thousand, word, missive. Here. 56. Pages single-spaced, typewritten, from, a 1930s. Or a typewriter, but, here he got this proverb, he, transposed. The verbs I said, I'm not sure what this means but. It's a mistake and if somehow boy we ever come up with some writing from somebody else and he, also uses, you can't eat your cake and have it too. We, got a we. Got our case made and I would you know pretty, much bet on it and, lo and behold when. You know many people send in documents, of their ex-husbands, their lawyers neighbors. Whatever a guy named David Kaczynski called. Hey I want to look at some documents, of my brothers it wasn't the first couple documents it, came in near the very end. And about a week before we were trying to get a search or arrest warrant and they're in. A document we numbered t 137. Is a. Letter to The Saturday, Evening Post I believe in the early 70s, blah, blah blah a big business big government bad, technology. Bed, at the end but, you can't eat your cake and have it too not, the way we would say it you can't have your cake and eat it too that's, not even a Chicago, thing that's, a true. Aspect, of, Kozinski's, idiolect, and the Unabomber idiolect. That we couldn't find anywhere, else even. In the early days of searching the internet and that. Was really the nail in the coffin of, the Unabomber, as, I wrote as the series presented, that's when the assistant. US attorney assigned to the case said you know what guys I think, based on this linguistic clue, we, can get ourselves a, search warrant for the cabin of Ted Kaczynski, we, got it and the, rest as as, you know Jim is history yeah. And it's, just fast that all the. The. Pieces especially as you watch them unfold in front of you go because, obviously we, all note that he gets, caught it's. Like the Titanic we all know that boat sinks, but. There are moments there where you go. Are. We sure I mean this. Whole time on yeah you know it's like I'm sure you had many of the sleepless nights are you sure this is I mean, even got a hold up to get the search warrant and all this other stuff I, just. Can't imagine how it was in the moment. Well. I'm just to address that real quickly I I would still pretty, much before the miniseries that's kind of and my book could explained a lot of things but, there were some people and even seasoned, investigators. They'd, walk up to me and I won't even talk you know I didn't go around talking about my. Career I just meets them on the street hey how you doing, and it may take them 20 minutes to find out I'm retired from the FBI I just don't give that information up, but, somehow you know bomb would come up whatever oh yeah that's the case he had a brother call in the case and saw the next day right I said, you know it. Didn't, quite work, that way and I had like I said seasoned, investigators. Say something like 10 well you have you were working, a string of bank robberies, and you get a phone call yeah Joey. Smith down there on Geppetto and you he's the one robbing, the bank you, had your case closed the next day well either go and build my case get a search warrant a restaurant, exactly, and all. We really had was language. To work on which, nobody else ever used, in the courts before to, get an arrest warrant or a search warrant we, did for the first time ever in April. Of 1996. Based. On language one, more question about this because I've got a whole bunch other things but this one kind of baffles me because. It. I'm, thinking, my shed down in my backyard off my mower in is bigger than. The Unabomber said I haven't measured it but it's close. Tell. Me about just being there on site and seeing this thing and realizing that somebody spent so many years of the life there how, that all just kind of went through your mind. Well. You. Know Jim I I know you're you're so kind of you know you delve. Into the paranormal, at times we had some discussions, about this people, are and and we agreed you know I'd still come on board and I'll tell you what.
It's. Interesting you asked a specific question and, time didn't do paranormal. If. It's and I think and, I told this to the writer of the series Andrew, sadowski's, his name and I think he captured it pretty well when, they show Sam Worthington I think was episode 7, walking. Into the you know bombers cabin, for the first time and, I'll, never forget the day I walk into I wasn't there for the arrest I had to finish up some loose ends and and we had a rush everything because of CBS, News and, you name it but, because, they had a leak that you know they knew they, know who the Unabomber was up in Lincoln Montana, so, to rush everything from you, know bringing in from one month or three days later but, I eventually, got up to the cabin and as, I wrote in the beginning of my third book, I. Spent, about 12, pages just. Trying to describe to the reader what it was like. Walking. Inside, the cabin, of this man who. Has it. This, was the nexus of evil, this place I was standing, in nobody. Was killed in this place but, the devices, the, the bogus, letters the. The. The ruse letters, the, threatening, letters to the New York Times all of this was created in. This place it's. A resident of like 20 plus. Years, is now in prison. We were hoping for the rest of his life and I'm standing in there with, my hands in my pockets I learned that a long time ago as a rookie. Cop unless I'm actually conducting, the crime scene search I don't want to touch anything and I'm just standing there and my colleagues, knew the profiler, and this fledgling, forensic. Linguist, because. They knew was mighdal or. The language analysis. That helped his, case to where it was they, gave me some private time inside, the place and the bomb device is removed some, of the other evidentiary, materials, were removed but, I'm telling you standing, there in silence it. Was kind of dark and. And. With. My hands in my pockets and I just looked around and, saying. How could I have ever predicted, that. You know the crossroads, of my life as. A guy, in my early 40s would, be somehow here in the you know bombers cabin, a guy, I heard about since you know I was in my probably. You know mid to late 20s when the case first broke and Here, I am part, of a team I didn't do this on my own but, I was part of a team that helped capture this guy and it was certainly my language, analysis, that did the major part of getting our search warrants excuse, me one second. Sorry. Let's, go I'm. Telling you it's almost like a third world not. A third world and other world experiences a big difference another. World experience, is standing there and just knowing you. Know can you describe, evil, can you quantify evil. This, guy was. And. He's. Still alive he. Is evil, and he's. Brilliant and, I'm sure there was a nice side to him and all that stuff I don't even think he's you, know he's, he's, uh he's, nuts I mean I he has some you, know behavior, on personality. Issues but I think you. Know if a few other things were a few different ways in his life you, know he could, have been a lot different I don't even disagree with everything he put in the manifesto, you know there's some there's. Some accurate. Ideas. And concepts, and themes and topics he discusses, and even, nowadays with, all of us with these you know smartphones, and we'll sit at the table and we're blue not, me I don't do this but you see younger people you, know not even talking, to one another and they're they're controlled, by this mechanism the the, size of a cigarette pack and. You know in so many words the, Unabomber was writing about that stuff in the mid-90s and and he was right but Here I am in this cabin knowing all this having, read every, word the Unabomber ever written and soon. To read every word Ted, Kaczynski, ever wrote that we found that his cabin and it, just was a it. Just was an almost, an out-of-this-world experience, and. I'm I was almost like I was elevated, above there was no roof on the cabin and I'm looking down at myself and in a way in like a healthy, way my, whole life was flashing before me like, it's every little decision I made in life you. Know left right in the middle, backwards/forwards. You know whatever this degree that degree take. This job don't take that one get. This promotion not, that one something. Put me in that, cabin, on that day and actually.
You Know on the case itself about, eight months before and. This. All came together and, we got this guy off the streets and I, have no doubt that you, know there's a good possibility he. Would have killed again if, at, least bombed for, purposes of sabotage, as he, said he would do despite, the offer he, gave the New York Times I. Understand. Here sitting here thinking about this it has is that probably the strangest. I guess is the easiest way to put on it feeling. That you've had around the I guess it's a crime scene or. Investigation. Site. That's, a good question. It's, definitely up in the top three. I've, been on a few homicide, scenes, I've been the first one to respond we don't think it and do all of that there. Was a mass. Murder in my town, of Bensalem, in a. 1975. Actually. No it was 76, the after, murders, abt. It's, a family of six that was wiped out by a neighbor because, the two older boys used to torment him as a kid I wasn't, even a cop there yet so I wasn't I don't think I do with the case they, arrested this guy it, was they I think five family, members that daughter's boyfriend, and even, the the. St. Bernard dog were murdered by, this guy who lived a block away anyway. A few years late a patrol, cop these. Two brothers the older brothers still lived there they got involved in drugs they weren't exactly you, know model students to begin with but, I went in one night he was all drunk neighbors were complaining and, he, bare you want a tour of the house and this, is like the early 80s I was a uniformed, police officer. I wasn't, even a detective, yet or a profile. Or anything like that okay. It, was Clifford apt and. He. Gave me a tour here's, where George, Bush gent hid behind the door as, each person came in he'd shoot them and I knew with some of this he, shoot them in the head bagged, her body done and he finally walked me downstairs you, know I came in I'm sorry this was my collab Clifford app was in prison Michael. App came home and found his family slaughtered in his basement and it. Was Michael and and. He said this is a this, is where I found everybody lined up here you still see bloodstains. On the floor I would, probably put that at the top of my list knowing that a mass murder occurred here about. Five years before, almost. I think to the month that, I was in his uh in, his home and I put that in my second, book and you. Know I had no idea I'd be in the FBI someday, or be a profile, profiler. But Here I am talking to a surviving. This is the guy that the killer wanted, to murder but, because he was out running around that night doing something he never got to him so I probably put that scene at the at. The, very top, of, the. List of. If. You will sort. Of serve allistic sort of environments. You. Know bombs cabin, probably, probably, second, and there's a few other homicide, scenes, in there which were very, unpleasant, that I could try to list after that but but, two of those would certainly take the top billing from what in.
A Negative way if you will in my, professional. Life in that regard, yeah. I'm like there's, that's just Wow okay. So I guess the next thing that you kind of wrestle you kind of stuck in there on me and I'm just gonna go here because it's kind of fascinating to me some. Of your bigger cases I think it we just talked about the innamal case and then the DC sniper Roy. Don't have a. And. Or. I mean they had well obviously the DC sniper had the the, victim site, but. The where he was committing, these crimes from, was the trunk of a car. Did, you is there any pair of more parallels, there that I'm missing between. The two of them. Well. They were they, were they, were mobile, crime. Scenes if you will good they were, you. Know north of Washington DC in Montgomery, County Maryland, two, down near Richmond Virginia to, Stafford, Virginia and. In. Other parts of the DC you know Northern, Virginia DC suburbs, including in DC itself I was living in Stafford. Virginia at the time I was, working out of the FBI Academy at Quantico, and I. Was. Part of the task force of about 200, people on, that case it started in a. Late. September. Of, 2002. And one, about three weeks into. October and and, I. Never, telling, a few people in fact I'll never forget Jim I was giving a tour at the FBI Academy it, wasn't my job but. Every once in I get a phone call hey yeah hey, yes it's can you do my friend a favor so some journalist came a. Friend. Of a friend I gave about five people like an hour tour of the, FBI Academy and, you know everybody. Was very appreciative well what kind the doer the lobby doesn't say goodbye to them and there's a TV on I guess CNN at the time and they're, talking about six, shootings. In the course of an hour murders, in, Montgomery, County Maryland which we all knew was just you, know 45, minutes from where we were standing and there's a way that people don't seem to be related you know to people here a person there another, person cutting, the lawn person, at a bus stop they, said well that's really strange, Fitz you're the profiler, what do you make of this and I. Said well I you, know I'm, still cautious to this day Jim if all I read about his, cases. In the media I'm very, much limited so, all I had that first twenty minutes was a media outlet report. On it and I said I don't know what to tell you obviously, something's going on here. Whether. It's one or more people or gang thing drugs related who knows but. I said I'll tell you what I do know about certain kinds of cases when, you have multiple, victims either the same day or spread. Over time sometimes. Sometimes, there's. Actually one victim, who was actually targeted, and they. Kill other people, around them, also. Known as collateral damage. So the, suspicion. Can be sort of diffused, away, from any one suspect, and as it's so I said that to these journalists, I said, you know I don't know what happened here I'll probably get back to my office and I'll probably be sent up there to work it as a profiler, and I said but you know sometimes these types of cases there's one person they, wanted murdered they took out five, others to you know to hide, in plain sight so to speak and not have that one victim being be, the you know the the primary. Target. If you will the, investigators, and who would have killed him or her well, as it turns out three weeks later a lot. Of us things happen between then but just to finish this part of the story three, weeks later when finally, Muhammad. And. Malvo were arrested, mahabodhi, John Muhammad the older guy Lee, Boyd Malvo the. 15. There. Was a 16 year old kid. The, whole thing, they were doing was. Not just that first day but the other four people, killed and the, other I think half dozen, wounded his, goal, was, to kill his ex-wife. In. Montgomery County Maryland he was going to target her and. Just one more victim of the DC sniper get, away with it and then he'd had to stop paying, her alimony child. Support and, he'd get his own biological. Kids back that's. What we found out from. Some. Some documents, we wind up reading and, what Malvo wound up the kid wound up telling us so. It. Was interesting how in that particular, case an early, supposition. On my part it, wasn't that first six that group of six but his ultimate goal was to kill his ex-wife and then, who knows one or two more to, kind of just make it look like she wasn't the ultimate goal and then, he'd have his kids back no, more child support alimony to pay and he's. Living happy, so. That's interesting how that played out in, the meantime I also talked to some people than a few days I said this makes no sense they keep killing people and shooting there's going to be some kind of a letter sent, to somebody a newspaper, a law, firm you know law enforcement agency. And sure, enough the. First know was left behind at the scene where the, 12. Year old boy was shot. At. A junior high school and, that was the famous tarot card that, had some words on the back of it I analyzed.
That And we started building our case and, I was the first one in the second the letter that came in, excuse. Me in, which. We. Found I found what, was determined to be indicators. Of African, American, English we. Talked about dialect, features Jim across the country there, are geographical. Barriers. To some of our dialects, in this country but they're also cultural, nothing, wrong them's not good bad nothing like that some, people speak you know a. Form. Of Spanglish, you know in the southwest, other, people's you know it may have some other dialect, features mixing Asian. Language with English and others and you, know african-americans have their own sort. Of pronunciation and, word usage and here, we have the letter and that. He sent to but. This was actually left on a tree and outside, of a ponderosa. Restaurant, in Richmond Virginia and. Within. A few days when I finally had the letter I looked, at it I said for the first time I think, we got at, least one, black guy if not two as our, DC, snipers, we've never had a black sniper before in this country I said, well I get I'm, telling you these language features here and there's no elements, of the skies I think, that's what we have we. Said white male earlier, on least we said prior, the FBI's initial, profile, was. Sniper. Type shootings, in the past have, traditionally, been white males we, don't know what we have here, but for now you know statistically. That's, what you know we want the public to look for. And. We got about a week and a half when this letter came in I'm the first one to go to chief moose and some, others and said we, may have one or more black guys here, as our, snipers, and it turned out that was the case. Just. Fascinating, think about you know has. This, is an awkward question but you've mentioned all these guys being male, I'm. Drawing. A blank on a female sniper your shooter like, that. That. Is one demographic I, don't think has been crossed yet. There's, been certainly, women shooters, right. But. Not the whole tactical. You, know camo. You. Know wearing and long, rifle with scopes and laser, sights and all that stuff none of which I am aware there's a few unsolved, cases out there but. That is so. Far not. A woman's, thing but. Yet. You never know as they say and I would never rule anything out, in this in, Windows world in which we live so, far that's, that's very true so, far so, far I've, got a very heavy question and then we'll get away from all this heavy stuff and getting there some Hollywood. In the books again and some psychic, stuff but. Is. It harder, to profile. A domestic, terrorist or a domestic person, because I know you spent some time doing. Some of the, other. Terrorism, things is is. One harder than the other or that just equally as difficult. You. Mean a domestic, terrorist, as opposed, to an international. Foreign. Terrorist if you will yeah. No. I, it. Seems, the. Trends, move along when almost by the calendar, page I remember. Coming. Back from you, know bomb and now I'm a full-fledged profiler. That case is over with and, I'm getting cases assigned to me now the Cold War is over you know and the, wall came down what, eighty nine ninety in, that ballpark you, know the Soviet Union collapsed so the Cold War is over but. What do we have in the u.s. we have the, formulation. And development, of a lot of these militia groups. Certainly. You know Oklahoma. City, was. At least an offshoot of that. But. Another group over the country that are forming, and you know we're looking into some of these we have some undercover things going and you, know the Turner Diaries and, the people involved and reading that so, for. Time in fact I was involved the, Olympics shoot the Olympic bombings was 96. I wasn't, directly, involved, in that some. Things went wrong there with Richard Jewell he, was not a suspect someone. Who, had to be looked into but it, turns out there was a guy. Another. Guy that was responsible, for it he wind up blowing up a couple bars and, an abortion. And abortion provider, in. In. Birmingham Alabama and he, went and hiding in the woods of Western North Carolina and, I, was telling people back then, and. Tell. It now but uh you. Know all we want to do is find this guy and. But. We, had so much resistance, from, the locals. Pbbb. Militia members, I'm not calling them domestic, terrorists I know that was your question but, some of that you, know some of the Posse Comitatus and.
The Aryan, Nation that we're pulling armored car robberies, and bank, robberies, and killing people it did certainly blossom, into those types of things, certainly. Timothy McVeigh, with Oklahoma City so. I kind of develop an expertise, on, these folks including after. Ruby. Ridge and Waco. Wewe. We got some training in cults. And then. They that wasn't even that. Even became a non, PC, term to use and they, started calling them arms. Alternate. Religious, movements. And. That's, what cults became so maybe. We're back to cults now I'm not even sure and that was kind of my focus for a while and quite, frankly when 9/11, happened there. Was really nobody in the profiling, unit that had any strong background, in. International. Or foreign, terrorism we, were kind of the dinosaurs, in the bureau because, that's what our own agents wanted that's what the. Officers. The police officers, and you know State Police you name it around. The US and around the world they've come to us about a serial, rapist a serial killer serial. Bank robber you know sometimes, you know, even. White-collar crimes and you know go on for years whatever and then, all of a sudden and we certainly FBI had people working international. Terrorism but, not so much from a behavioral perspective so, I felt, I had a pretty good understanding by, the early, 2000s. Of what makes some of these militia groups, function. In, fact we even had a seminar we brought in an FBI agent, who was undercover, among. These groups out in Idaho he actually lived with them for, a year. Or so. And, he, would provide them with materials never, weapons, or ammunition but. You know he had a contact, he bring in like kind, of flies uniforms. Or I. Don't, know like canteens, and, meals-ready-to-eat so. These guys were so appreciative that and, he said what these guys would do virtually. Every single day they. Would watch the movie Red Dawn. They'd. Have it on VHS tape, you know what you know which what I'm talking about I do. Scarily. Enough I do. Yeah. And I'm not not gonna know it's a fun movie I I enjoyed, it but um I think. A young Patrick Swayze a bunch of other young stars that you know and. It's about these black helicopters. And a paratroopers. Coming into some small town in the Midwest and basically, as high school kids fight them off and that's, what these guys just love and they lived on this and they'd and every, time a friggin, uh I forget. They see a helicopter fly, over or they'd see some kind of a maybe. Uh the, lights would go out in their in, their town for one reason or another and boy, they they. Were just convinced, this was the takeover the Russian helicopters, were coming in they. Were about to be overrun. By you. Know black-clad. Wearing, troops and all this stuff and. It's. Just amazing hearing, how these guys actually, thought and, operated, luckily. Most of them weren't that bright and, when they did commit some crimes they got caught. So. So, you really had to absorb. Yourself into, that culture to understand, these guys read, the books of the day the paladin, press type, books the. Turner Diaries. I'm. Drawing a blank on the guys name I think he was a medical doctor but. Or at least a PhD. But. He wrote that book the Turner Diaries and this was the Bible of all the and you know and some of Oklahoma City was, loosely based on that some people claim so, I stayed, on top of all that then 9/11 came along and that changed, everything and we ought to learn learn. About the Quran and Islam, assist and the, Middle Eastern culture and and, take it to the next step and we. Have people now in the profiling, unit you. Know that had expertise, in that I mean I've been out ten years this month but, just as I left I was helping to form some of these units to make sure we. Not, only agents, in the field working. International. Terrorism foreign, terrorist whatever but, we also had behaviorist, with, expertise, in the culture the.
Language To some degree but. Certainly the you know the behavioral, mindset, of the people doing these kinds of crimes, so. I like to even though I have one more question about this is it, harder to profile. And keep track of a group or just a single person. You. Have good questions Jim. Give. You credit for that you've done your research um I. I. Guess inherently. Well. Let, me explain something first of all by. Definition a, profile. Is a behavioral. Assessment. Of an unknown person. So. I'm. Not to correct you but you, know I would react you're quiet I would answer your question as well is it more difficult, to do a behavioral. Assessment, of a group or a. Individual. Person because. A profile, on the hood is so to, profile, a group, you. Could do that I mean FC. Claimed, he, was a group that's the Unabomber, he called his group always, using plural pronouns, FC, we. Were convinced, early on John Douglas before, me, that. It was only one person he was right most, threateners, operate, on their own it's very rare it truly is a group but. If you are studying. An unknown group I don't know you. Know Isis, you, may have some of the leaders names whatever. You. Know al-qaeda some of those. You. Certainly have to take in the entire picture of, everybody. That you can identify their. Backgrounds. Their source material where. They grew up where they're living now what they've done with, one person obviously it's, easier because you only have. You. Know one environment you know arguably obviously. With a guy maybe grow up where, he's worries practing his trade, now and take it from there so. It's. Depending. On the amount of information one. Would abbe will, say a profiler, would have a behavioral. Assessment. Assessor. Would. You. Know is the group publishing. Manifestos. Do they have an online site, where, they're putting all kinds of, missives. And manifestos. Out there or, was it a singular, person operating, on. His own and you don't know why, or what at least at first any. Patterns, or any trends that what they're doing so, you. Could actually conceivably. Be easier to profile, a unknown, group then. It would be an. Individual, depending. What kind of information and evidence you have so, I have to answer your question you end by saying each. Case would be dependent, on the facts that are that. Are present, to the behavioral, Assessor, /, profiler. So. We're, shifting gears there's no easy transition, out of that question and in this trash this. Question so, what's it like doing these crime shows for Hollywood not. Necessarily the documentary, about you but the other ones is. It well. Is it frustrating for you or is it more realistic than we realize. Um. A. Little. Bit of both but, I think I learned the. Realistic part kind. Of get put to the wayside for. That one key five letter word drama. It, has to be drama, by. Something Jim I find you're gonna go money on me but okay. That. Plays a little bit of a role but um but. If I want to associate, myself with that with the television show or a miniseries, or a movie, yeah. I want to be paid for my time that's something fair but, I'm not gonna get involved in in crap and. I'm not gonna get involved in something that is just totally off-the-wall at. Least from you know my own at least keep my part, of it real and we'll come back to that in a minute but, just to say one thing men. Manhunt. Unabomber was not a documentary, it was a scripted, miniseries, over eight parts there, are other documentaries, of course out there about the you know bond case but, that was a scripted.
Miniseries So I learned all this terminology back, in the back, in the day when I was started doing these shows so I retired in November, of oh seven, and except. For the writer strike which kicked in immediately. By. About March of Oh 8 I was working for, the TV show Criminal, Minds and I, did the. Neck two seasons, I was their technical, adviser I didn't, I lived in the East Coast I wasn't on the set every day but, the writers will send me their scripts I'd go over it I bring, in some other experts, to talk like. In the conference call I'd you know I'd go through it you, know each script now the FBI, agent wouldn't say this no the profiler wouldn't do this and I. Rise at the end of the day all, I could do was recommend. And suggest they. Would do what, they wanted they. Had 42, minutes I get 60, pages. 6-0. Pages of. A script for a one-hour, TV show so. Words. Were very valuable you had to be very efficient, and effective, I'll, never forget one scene in my first couple, months and, it's. Tough to talk about, because what just happened in western Pennsylvania. But, when, a police officer is killed. Officers. Will wear a black, you. Know ribbon across their badges usually. For the next 30 days so. I was speaking to this writer on Criminal Minds and there was a case in his fictitious. Episode. Where, a police officer was killed and some, other people so the team had to go out there the Criminal Minds team and, he's trying to get this dialogue, down from like I don't know 300, words to like 50 words and, we're, going back and forth back I said well how, about having the chief come in and hand, out the black ribbons, to his uh his, department. Is officers, what. Do you mean I said well whenever an officer is killed that's. What happens I've warned them on my badges, there's. Tricks, you, just saved me two and a half minutes of dialogue and a, hundred and gynae 400, words, okay. So, you. Know little. Things can go a long way with the writers so. I. Kept. Working on Criminal Minds with I had a handshake agreement with my good friend Jim Clemente, he retired a no.9 from the FBI he, moved to LA he became their technical adviser now, he's one of the main writers Michaele he's doing a great job he, gets like three or four episodes, every season but. I always would go out there, to. The writers room when, they're breaking, stories, it's always happens in June they, finish writing like in March they have a few months off when, they come back in June they're, supposed to be prepared to have like three or four episodes to. Break so, the, beginning of season. Em9. I believe. They. Were bringing in a new character played by Jeanne. Tripplehorn her. Name was gonna be Alex, Blake and, they wanted to have a background for, her and they couldn't figure out what kind of pretend. - background to give her of course she's an FBI agent, she's a profiler, so, they turned to me it's, I'm not even technically. You. Know on the payroll at this point but they're still flying me out and and taking, care of me in that regard well. What do you think about her I said let me think well. You guys have met my friend. Natalie she's a professor of linguistics at, Georgetown University. Why, don't we have, Alex. Blake. Be, a professor, of linguistics at, Georgetown, University but. She's also an FBI profiler, and I know when, she was a rookie FBI age. The Unabomber, case with language they, snapped their fingers the, showrunner said it's, that's our new character and for, the next two seasons Jeanne, Tripplehorn plays. This kind, of combined character, of my friend Natalie and me. As. This Alex Blake so there's. The little contributions. I made to the show along the way I still do, and. I've worked a few other shows and I've been on camera with a few different shows and, they're, they're, more documentaries. And each each episode, will be about a serial killer. Excuse. Me here. Something. A little bit different that I'm sure some of your listeners would would have liked and I like the show too it, was called Sleepy Hollow do you remember it I do. Obviously. It was a book, about the Headless Horseman and all that, Washington. Irving I believe but, this was modern-day in Sleepy. Hollow New York right outside of New York City and. They. They. Were telling all kinds of bizarre stories, with demons and monsters and, crypt. Robbers, and and you, name it and they, were fun and I enjoyed them but they had first a police officer, then, she became an FBI agent, and they, wanted they, had me and another, female.
Retyping. Female. Very some things we were their technical advisors it, really wasn't a bad gig we'd read through the scripts about monsters. Bursting, out of graves and, blood sucking and. And eyes being taken out in a blah blah blah blah blah okay in the FBI office, yeah, the Special, Agent in Charge says, no no no he wouldn't say it this way he'd, phrase it this way and the cars it's not a G car it's AB you car you know and all this kind of stuff so every script would have two or three little things there we'd, send it off thank you really appreciate this and the check would come in the mail and and, we were happy so it's. Amazing what these shows want, to be kind of kept even. Semi, authentic, in that regard which, brings us the manhunt, and I. Gave. Them all the true story I have a PowerPoint three-hour, PowerPoint. Presentation, I had a rough outline of my long book chapter and I. Spent days with, the writers days with the director, I took the director to the Museum, in Washington DC because. That's where the actual you know bombers cabin is and I, told them everything but, when, that five what's that five letter word Jim do you remember. Not. Money. That's. Given. You the dramatic policy, okay okay. Thank you and and. They, had some, elements to it so they. Did and and. In. In reality, nobody. Really interviewed, Kaczynski, a couple agents that across the table from him when he was first arrested he. Gave him his name rank. And serial number I'm kidding about the last part but basically. That I've even asked him hey we're gonna go search your cabin, are there any trip, wires or booby traps he won't even answer that question um, but the. Writers had to bring Sam and Paul, Bettany together, they, had other two lead actors these two a-listers, you. Know meet each other on screen multiple, times so, I was a little resentful that I argued, with some of the folks over, the phone you ready to do this could you make it a dream sequence no we can't do that in a show. Based on true events well, it didn't really happen that way and, I wrote, my book my one real in. Face, in. Person time face time with Ted Kaczynski, was in the courtroom the day he was sentenced. In. Early. 78, I guess in a early. 98, in Sacramento. And, if. You want to read about that it's really a bizarre incident, where, he finds out who I am sitting about 15. Feet behind them to off to an angle and and. What. Transpired, after that was very odd and unusual but, um but, I'm where I am and he is where he is and uh that. Ain't gonna change, okay. Quick give me the promo for the book again because I want to get to the psychic stuff but give me the promos for the book so we can get them out. Yeah. The. Books all three books all, three. Of the four books have been published it's a journey to, the center of the mind infinity, publishing, James. R Fitzgerald, book. One is the coming-of-age years, book, two the police officer, years book, three the first ten FBI years, book, four will be out in 2019.
Okay. So, you. Kind of dropped the bombshell on me yesterday when we're talking but I'll get to that in a second what. Are your thoughts in general about, using, psychics, to, help you solve crime. All. I can tell you is based on my 31, years, in law enforcement and, as well as dealing with probably. Thousands, of other investigators, I'm. Not aware of any, one, case, that. Was resolved. By a psychic. I'm. Not denying some, people may have, skills. Perhaps. Powers. Intuition. Something, like that it. May be out there I'm not just. Just. Allowing that factor, I've, never had a particular, case where that happened there's been a few cases I've work a persons missing usually. A kid, invariably. A psychic, would call well, the body will be found within 50, miles of railroad tracks. Okay. Thank. You there aren't too many places in the u.s. that, aren't within 50 miles of railroad tracks the other things there's about you know within, 20, miles of a body of water, okay. Thank, you some, are more specific and, some had been kind of close every, once in a while you wonder if that person is not the killer but, I've never had a personal. Situation in which that I, should. Say professional, situation, where, a psychic, has ever helped saw the case I've had at, least one psychic, she didn't tell us he was a psychic she, wrote a letter to an investigator, who was who. Was doing a cold case from twenty-five years before, of a murder she wrote an anonymous, letter check, this guy out, but. No signature, and he. Sent it to me a month later can you use, your linguistic, analysis, to break down what we have here and we, went through and we you know I spend you know a couple days working on this and finally. We didn't know if this was a murderer him or herself live. With the murder whatever. Finally. Six months later a woman, walks up to a police officer Oh to Detective so-and-so get my letter. What do you mean Dibby it, turns out this woman had a psychic vision and, that's how she put everything on paper but she didn't say in the letter it, was a psychic, vision so, we had agents all over the country looking for certain, names actually out in the Pittsburgh area was, the focus of a certain man a certain, name a variation. Of a name a description we. Had actually had a couple hits of things, that were close but then it fell, apart so, I, worked, the case this is chapter 16, in my book. It's. A long involved case but in a nutshell a boy. Went missing in the early 1970s. In upstate New York and the. Parents were desperate, and. They never know what happened to him was a family picnic he just disappeared, eight years old his name was Doug leg Ellie, Gigi. In. The early 90s, a woman's telling me she, thinks her father's a serial, killer he killed women back in the 60s, and even a little blond-haired, boy about, 8 to 10 years old I knew, nothing about any of this I do some research there's, a missing boy 8 to 10 years old Doug leg we. Go out and reach for the parents it turns out they're related, to this, woman and her father not. The first time a family member would have kidnapped. And/or killed somebody and they. Bring us to their house and they had basically a shrine, set up to their now 20-year. Missing. Young boy and here. It turns out and I'm going to use this word I am positive. They had been victimized, over the years. By. Psychics, or people who claimed there were psychics, I'll put it that way and there, may have been some genuine people in there but they were paying thousands, of dollars to. People who kept claiming their son was kidnapped by, a band of hippies in 72, and he's being held on a commune, in Northern California whatever. So, that's, the closest, those two kind of incidents, they're kind. Of the closest, I came to psychic, I'm not knocking it it, may be out there it may be legit, but, in my personal, career I'd. Be willing to listen to anybody Jim who wants to call me and sit down, I'd have to prioritize it, somehow depending, on the case and the other leads that I'm covering but, I'm certainly willing to listen to people and at least do a basic follow-up, of what they're saying but, you also to be careful but someone's not trying to provide, misinformation. Oh yeah, the body will, be found over in this direction when actually you, know with 50 miles in the other direction and I'm.
Familiar With things like that that happened you know over the decades, but so. It's just something I would go and do very cautious, they would tell any, other investigator, like my dad used to tell me as a little kid listen, to anybody that wants to tell you something, and, do what you want with the advice and take it to where you, know it needs to go. All. Right Fitz we're, down to it's just a couple minutes left and, we. Normally get into this Bruce. Rapidfire kind, of questions so are. You game for some fun here no, we kind of frazzled. Everybody's, nerves. Go, for it okay. So first, one is three. People dead or alive that you can have dinner with. Winston. Churchill William, Shakespeare, to Bridget I guess and. Jesus. Christ. Our. Favorite color. Blue. Classic. Or modern cars, this is not even fair because I know where you're gonna go. Classic. The. 68, Mustang from, the movie Bullitt, I. Almost. Predicted, that but I think God didn't go out in the land my shit owes you you, may be a profile, or a psychic. That's. Gonna say somewhere in between probably, just that thin line that's all I'd be. Favorite. Meal eat. Pasta. Yeah. Just, straight posture, meatballs. Service. Okay. Favorite, place to like dream, vacation. I've. Been lucky to have been around the world I lived for months in Florence, Italy. Go, back to Australia, or New Zealand one, of those two places. What. What's key what keeps you awake at night I don't, say scares you because I'm sure you've seen a lot of things that probably scare me. Um. Where. Our society. Seems, to be going, sometimes I'm not gonna get political, and you don't worry but just it's everybody's. Blaming everybody, else we're so divided down the middle it's. Not, really like America, anymore it's my, side and, my side, and we're better than you and I do worry about that I you know three, kids and I have a new granddaughter, and I'm, worrying about the world that you know they're going to and hurt and grow into so, and. I'm not blaming anyone president. Or anyone party, or anything like that it's just I just, think you know maybe the way we're all focused on our smartphones, and some, of our. Movies and TV shows and, and people, out there that it's it's confusing some people and I hope somehow we can get get, beyond that and we, can look at ourselves as, Americans first be very proud of who we are we. Can respect the other differences and go from there but I do, worry about that sometimes, at, night and I try to keep. All that in, place if, I can so. You just kind of cooked my next question favorite president. I'm, really now about Theodore, Roosevelt, so. We, do, classic, or modern cars, a classic. President. He. Was a pretty cool guy he. Gave up a cushy job he, was a you know an Ivy League guy cushy, job with the Secretary, of the Navy and he's over in that Cuba fighting the spanish-american. War, and I'm. Reading his uh his take. On that whole thing right now so, for. Our sake tonight let's say Teddy Roosevelt, pretty cool guy weak, man's man we could do that for sure and you know what else people, don't people don't know this about Roosevelt, real quick, he, tried besides, you know he's battling, you know on a hillside San, Juan Hill in, Cuba in, there you know 18 98, 99 whatever, but. Like five years later as president, he's trying to come, up with a spelling. Simplification. Process in, the US has. Run for about three years and, the Brits are making fun of me we invented English you can't shorten these work he wanted words like through, thr. Ough to. Be spelled thr, you like many people now when they're texting, or, tweeting the right and he had like 300, words let's just change these words if it end if it sounds like an end to the T, let's you know end annotate and people are making fun of them and the cartoonists so I like him because he's also like an amateur linguist, well, throw that in there too so before. We run out of time 20:19. You say the next books coming out. Book. For the final version of my memoir series, a journey this another mine book, four will be the final ten FBI years. So. Hopefully I can get you back for that when it comes up again. I'm on Twitter and. You know Facebook all that stuff my website, is. Www.antakungfu.com. It. At that all right Fitz it's been real fun not to talk, to you again soon. All. Right can you take care of. Expressed. On the mallard report are those of the hosting participants. All listeners, are advised to make their own decisions. You. You. You. You.