International Colloquia on Significant Role of Hydrogen toward Sustainable Development Goals
Good, morning. Good evening good luck good day. And. Welcome, to, mit, innotherm. Colloquium. Number line, i'm gang chen. And. Today. We have, a. Very, exciting. Talk, on hydrogen. And i just learned. From. Professor, ogadaki. Asher there over 280. 000 deployment, in household. Of hydrogen, system. The fuel cell system in japan, that's, really amazing. So. We have a very exciting, panel, uh, consisting. Of for see. Professor roon magoonda. And. Professor. Takata. And the moderator. Is now stranger. And so let me just introduce, jung again, and then he will introduce the rest of the, speaker and the panelists. And. June, is currently. The department, head. At the mechanical, engineering department, the university of tokyo. And he's also visiting researcher. At the, rican. Center for one's, intelligence. And his research, area in nanoscale, heat transfer. In the future, dynamics. Thermoelectrics. Materials. Informatics. Multiscale, computing. And. I also had a great pleasure working with june before. And with that. Let me. Turn to jung, and you can, take it over here from here so i'll stop sharing my screen. Thank you very much gone, let me, share, my. Screen. Okay, so um. My great pleasure to be back as a moderator. In this colloquium. And, i would like to first of all thank the organizers, at mit. Led by professor gan chen. Today. As god said we have a very exciting topic, on hydrogen, energy, and the presenter, today is professor. Ken okazaki. Professor, ken okazaki. He's a currently. Institute, professor. Professor. Emeritus. Of, institute of innovation, research, at tokyo institute of technology. Formerly, he has been the dean of school of engineering, at. Tokyo institute of technology. And pred is president. Of hydrogen, energy systems society of japan. And heat transfers society, of japan. And he was also vice president, of japan society of mechanical, engineers. And also, official, member, of the science council. Of japan. At the cabinet, office. His research, areas. Include, hydrogen-based. Advanced, energy systems, and fuel cells. Clean and high efficiency. Coal and biomass, technologies. Non-equilibrium. Plasma, chemistry. And. Applications. We also have a two great. Moderators. Today i'm sorry a panelist, today. The first panelist. And not to mention is professor, arun majumda. He's currently. Professor, at stanford, universities. University. In mechanical, engineering, material, science. And photon, science, he's also co-director. Of stanford. Pre-core, institute of energy. He was formerly. Founding director of rpe. At us department of energy.
Acting Under secretary, of energy us department of energy, vice president of energy, at google. Professor, at the university of california, berkeley. And he's been a member of these organizations. His research, areas. Include electrochemical. And thermochemical. Redox, reactions. Nanoscale. Trans heat transfer. Materials, and devices. Energy conversion, transport, and storage. Biomolecular. Analysis. And nanoscale, imaging and microscopy. The other panelist. Is professor, yasuyuki, takata. He's currently, professor. At department of mechanical, engineering. International, institute of carbon neutral, energy research. Eisner. At kyushu university. He's also vice president. Of asian union, of thermal science and engineering. He was formerly, a president of heat transfer society of japan, and also president, of japan society of thermal physical properties. He's been awarded. Received many awards. In the research, areas of hydrogen, thermal physical, properties, at high pressures. Effective, surface wetability. On liquid vapor, phase change. And heat transfer, enhancement, of boiling. And, evaporation. Okay before we move on to the presentation. I would like to. Remind you about the format, of this colloquium. Here's his gender today. We'll ask, professor okazaki, to give about 40 minutes presentation. And that will be followed up by. A 30 minutes, or so, discussion. Before we wrap up. Meanwhile. Right after i finish talking. Either during. Professor okazaki's. Talk or, during the discussion. You're very welcome, or please do. Ask questions. When you ask questions please use the q a button. In zoom. And we will be pulling, from that stream, the questions. Questions are visible, only to the panelists. Not. To the other attendees. Please also submit any suggestions, you have for future topics, and speakers. And note that. This colloquium, is being recorded, and will be posted on youtube. Later. This might also include questions, which we can get to today. And if you when you ask questions. If you prefer your question to be anonymous. Please state, so in your question. Otherwise. We'll be calling your name. Okay. One more thing before. Moving on to the presentation, i would like to make announcement, for the next. Um, cloakium. Next webinar. Which is on 19th, of august. The same wednesday, same time. It will be about thermal management, of electric, vehicles. New engineering, challenges. Let me also. Mention, sorry mansion. I'm sorry. About the. Future events. This is on. September, 2nd. The topic will be, earth's. Energy, balance. Okay. So with that. I would like to introduce. Professor, okazaki, or i would like to ask him to give a presentation. Yeah. Yeah he screams all yours. Please. Can you see that. Yes we see the screen. Um. Okay. But do you wanna. Oh okay. Okay, thank you so much for introducing, me. Hello, everybody. My name is ken okazaki. Of tokyo, institute, of technology. First of all, i'd like to say thanks, to the organizers. Especially. Professor, gan chen of mit. To give me this kind of opportunity. Basically. I like. The fundamental. Researches. But today. I'd, like to talk, about. An overview. Of hydrogen. On, the significant. Role of hydrogen, toward. Sdg's. Sustainable. Sustainable, development, goals. The. Outline. Of my talk today, is. Why. Can hydrogen. Can hydrogen, contribute, to sdgs. And. Japan's, history, of hydrogen, and fuel cell technologies. And, basic, hydrogen, strategy. And road map in japan. And, various. R d activities. For hydrogen, energy. And, global. Global, scale. Co2, free hydrogen, supply, chain. And world trends, including, germany. Eu, u.s, and china. And. Finally, i like to mention about the fundamental. Researches. Related, to heat, and mass transfer. Coupled. With, electrochemistry. And concluding. Remarks. As shown here, hydrogen. Is, secondary. Energy. And can be produced, from various, different, kinds, of. Energy. Resources. Including. Domestic. Fuel cells. Overseas. Unused, energy. And renewable. Energies. Especially. Renewable, energy. Is, the most important. To produce, hydrogen. In the future. And, hydrogen, is transported. To the demand, side. And. To be used. To. Realize, the co2-3.
Industry. And co2-3. Mobilities. Uh this, shows, the renewable, energy, situation, of renewable, energy, in japan. At present. Uh. The percentage, of renewable. Energy. Is only. 12. In japan. But we have to increase. This percentage, to 22. To 24. By, 2030. Including. Solar, power, with power, biomass. And geo summer. Especially. In japan. The solar, power, p buoy. Will be, play a very important, role. Here, we. Discuss. Why hydrogen. Now. Because, of clean energy. Flexible. Energy carrier. And, long experience. In hydrogen, development, in japan. But. When we discuss. About. The. The. Energy, security. And global, environment. Just. Global. Environment. Hydrogen, should have a large. Massive. Contribution. And. Another important. Importance, of hydrogen. Is that, hydrogen. Can be, can enhance. To introduce. More and more renewable. Energies. Because. Renewable, energy, especially. The natural, energy, has a. Very, large, flag. Many fluctuations. From seconds. Minutes, hours to seasons. So for the load, labeling. For that, the hydrogen, will play a very important, law. Now another one, is, large. Electricity. Production, above, demand. In this case, the hydrogen. Hydrogen. Can store. Much, amount of. Energy. For long term. Battery. May. Have a small. Battery may have same. Role. But, energy storage. Capacity. And, the duration, time, are much smaller. Than. Hydrogen. As shown, in the next slide. As shown here. Hydrogen. Has a very. Large, capacity. Corresponding. To one gigawatt. And. Can store. Energy. For. Long time. Correspond, to this. Minute, hour day, week, and, even, seasons. So hydrogen. Will play a very important. Role. When we introduce, more and more renewal, and renewable, fluctuating. Renewable, energies. Here. I'll. Uh. Mention about, japan's, history. Of, rnd. Ireland. Rnd. In hydrogen, and fuel cell technologies. We have more than 30 years, experience. For hydrogen, and fuel cell technologies. Uh, 2000. 2009. We introduced. The household, fuel cell. Bfc. And, 2011. We introduced, household. First cell sofg. And. 2013. We. Introduced. The. Hydrogen. Hydrogen, refilling, stations. And. Dissemination. Determination. Of hydrogen, stations. And, as you know well.
The Actual, commercialized. Fuel cell vehicles. Sales, started. 2014. And now. The. Global. Global, hydrogen. Hydrogen, supply, chain. And. Hydrogen, power generation. Are, now going on. Into. Including. Various, demonstrations. As. Explained. Later. As for the strategy. As for the, national, strategies. Basic, hydrogen. Strategy. Was established. About two and a half years ago december. 2017. Declared. By prime minister. And. Among them. Hydrogen. Cost, is the most, important. The target, is, shown here. Three dollars. Per kilogram. Kilogram, hydrogen, by 2030. To. Two. Dollars, by. Two dollars. Per, kilogram, hydrogen. By, 2050. And. To realize, that. The. Large-scale. Hydrogen, supply, chains. And, massive. Usage, of hydrogen. And mobility. Power generation. And industry. Uh. General. And, key technologies. To be developed, are shown here, in the production. The electrolyzer. System. Is quite, important. And transportation. Hosa transportation. Which kind of energy carrier, should be used. And, the, utilization. Part, our demand, side. Fuel, cell for mobility. And power generation. And hydrogen. Fired. Power generation. Will be quite, important. In the future. This is the scenario. For. Basic hydrogen, strategy. As, for the, hydrogen, volume. Uh, uh this is the present, picture. And. This, is the the the, target. By 2030. The hydro as for the hydrogen, volume. Uh. The target. In. 2030. Is about. The, 300. 000. Tons, per year. And the cost, should be three, dollars. Per. Kilogram, hydrogen. And power generation, cost. It should be. The, 17. Japanese, yen. Per kilowatt, hour, which corresponds. To the 15. Cents. Per kilowatt, hour. And. For the mobility, hydrogen, stations. 900. Should be introduced. And. Eight. Fgv. Filter, vehicles, should be introduced. Uh, 800. 000, filter vehicles should be introduced. And. Utilization. Of a fewer cells, and for the, household. The in a. Private, houses. Should be 5, million. Units. By, 2030.. So, we are now going on. To. Realize. Such kind of. Targets. By the way what is the. Uh. Definition. Of hydrogen, society. I myself. Uh, this uh. Said. About three, or four years ago. As. Such like this. A society.
Where, Hydrogen. Used as a secondary. Secondary, energy. Accounts, for, over, 20 percent. Of all energy consumption. Including. The. Industrial. Applications. And. Hydrogen. Quantitatively. And sufficiently. Contributes. To. Energy, security. And. Carbon neutral, society. These, are the two major. Issues to really. Realize, such as hydrogen, society. One is the domestic. Expansion. Of demand. Including. Fuel cell vehicles. Residential, fuel cells co-generation. Units. And hydrogen, aero critical, electrical. Power generations. And. Tools. For that. Demand. We have to realize. The supply, chain for a large amount of hydrogen. One is co2, hydrogen. Derived, from, domestic. Renewable, energies. Through. P2g. And, also, co2, free hydrogen, from unused. Energy. From overseas. So. Increase, of demand. And supply, both are quite important. This kind of 20. This value. Is. Was supported. By the, hydrogen, council. Next, year. Next year of, my. Proposal. Maybe. All of you know. Well. But here, i'll. Show. Briefly. About the principle. Of, yourself. Like this. This is a membrane. And. This is the. First cell. And, this is, mea. May membrane, electrode. Assembly. And. Fuel cell stock. More than. 300. Will, sell. Uh. Uh, mea. Uh gathered, in the one stock, modern, one. Three. I'm not sure, but. More than 300. Sales. Will be packed, in the fiercer, sac, and installed. In the car. This, is. High pressure, hydrogen, tank. Pressure, is, 70. Mega pascal. Corresponding. To 700. Atmospheric. Pressure. Such kind of high pressure, hydrogen. Tank. Is. Just, below, your, rear. Seat. Many people. May be, interested, in the comparison. Between. Battery, every. And, fc. Ev. In between. Hybrid. And plugging hybrid, ev here. Fcv. Fuel cell vehicle, has an advantage. Especially. For large vehicles. Including. Buses. And, trucks. Considering. Cruising. Distance. And. Charging, time. For the fuel cell vehicle, hydrogen, refilling, time is only 3 minutes. Much. Much longer, time should be necessary. For the. Charging, of battery, eb. This ride shows the status, and target, of fuel cell vehicles, in japan i already explained. The target. Of introducing. Versailles. Is, 800. 000. By, 2030. And. By. 2020. We. Tried to introduce. 40. 000, first, vehicles. But actually. Can you guess.
Actually. 10, 000, first vehicles. That's. Behind. Our target. And here is fewer survivors. Also. Introduced. Into public, services. Another, important. System. To use, hydrogen. Is. The stationary. Fuel cell, system. Stationary, fuel cell. Co-generation. Systems. Ct gas, is. Reformed, to form hydrogen. And. Co2. And hydrogen, is used. To form, electricity. And. Heat, or hot water. Through the, fuel cell systems. And supplied, to the houses. Now, the. We. Have. 280. 000, units. Are already. Introduced, into the private, houses. Including, my house, i introduced, this kind of system in my house. About seven, more than seven years. Ago. This, is, the, ongoing. Project. As for the mobility, i explained, already. But, as for the hydrogen, power generation. The, hydrogen. Cogeneration. Demonstration. Project. Was. The. Demonstration. Has been, successfully. Done. Two years ago. In kobe, area. Using hydrogen, gas turbine. System, of 1.7. Megawatt. This is of course cogeneration. System. And. Electricity. Is supplied. And, heat is also, supplied. To surrounding. Hospitals. Athletic. Gems, and others. The other, big project. Is to develop. The large-scale. Hydrogen. Combustion. Gas turbine. This is example. To. Develop. The. Bada. System. As you know japan, has. Almost. No energy. Resources. So, to supply, a large amount of hydrogen. We, in japan. Are developing. Global, scale, hydrogen, supply, chains. Two. Are, almost. Come to the demonstration. Stage. One, is, the. Using, the. Associated. Gas. Reform, to form hydrogen. To make, mch. Material. Cyclohexane. And, transported. To japan. And the other one big project. Is, the using, the lignite, of. Victorian. State of australia. To. Make hydrogen. And, liquefied. And then liquefied. And then transported. To, japan, by the, liquid, hydrogen, tanker. Uh i'd like to explain, a little more. Ongoing, project. This is the brunei. Project i explained. This, is the japan, australian. Project. Pilot project. Brown, core. Is, gasified.
To Form, hydrogen. And co2. Silt, is transferred. To the. Ccs. Process. This is means. Carbon capture, and storage. Under, the, ground, under the, ground. So, ccs, process. And liquefied. Hydrogen. Is transported. To japan, by hydrogen, tanker. To the demand, side. Okay. So, in this case. We can realize. No co2. Emissions. Even, though. We use. The core. Another. One big project. Domestic, project, in japan, is the fukushima, reunion. Renewable. Hydrogen, project. Using, the pb. Photovoltaic. For generation. To form. The. Hydrogen. And. Electricity. Is used, to, make hydrogen, through electrolyzer. And, hydrogen. Is planned, to transport, it to. The tokyo, area, to be used, all tokyo olympic games but. It is. Postponed. Or cancelled, now. Next, shows the, diagram. Of this kind of, systems. This. Slide, shows. The, pilot, scale. The, liquid, hydrogen, tanker. The. Like this, the. And the commercial. Is, this, commercialized. Scale, is shown here. By, 2030. But this kind of shape. Is not a dream. Actually. We, realize. The, this kind of liquid, hydrogen. Tanker. And. World's, first. Liquefied. Hydrogen, carrier. So-called. Suicidal. System is hydrogen, three so frontier. Launching. Ceremony. Was, actually, held. In. December. Last year. Only half. Year ago. You know. As shown, here, we have, come to this kind, of, actual. Stage. At present. Hydrogen. Still play, an only, small, part. In the energy. Sectors. So to expand. Hydrogen. Utilization. Various, factors. As shown here. Are, necessary. Such as, large-scale. Hydrogen, supply, from abroad. And large-scale. Utilization. Of hydrogen. In various, industrial. Sectors. Including. Electrical, power generation. Oil complex. Industrial. Applications. City, utility. And, transportation. Hydrogen, station. Cogeneration. And zero emission, buildings. For that, these kind of challenges. Definitely. Necessary. Including. Big, investment. Especially, big investment. And. Cost down of hydrogen, price. Definitely. Necessary. Uh to, accelerate. To accelerate. Such kind of in. Uh. To in. Accelerated. Implementation. This kind, of, this kind of trinity. Among, policy, maker. Industry. And the financial. Sectors. Necessary. In the. You know aichi, prefecture. Is actually, promoting. This kind, of. Initiative. By. A collaboration. Of arch prefecture. And, the energy companies, are shown, like this. This is, the. Ice low, carbon. Hydrogen. Supply, chain. Uh. 2030. Vision. By the collaboration. Among. Prefecture. Energy. Companies. And, also. Big toyota, headquarters, of toyota, is in the arch prefecture. And. The first stage, uh, this, is, the.
The Target is. The. Expand. Renewable. Energy. Based. Low carbon. Hydrogen, supply, chain. Using. The existing. Infrastructures. Like this, so it's so first stage, we, already, rather. Realized. Sustainable. Development, development. Of local. Low carbon. Hydrogen, supply, chains. And. Using. The, by. Biogas. And. Transported. To the usual. Existing. City. Gas pipelines. To the toyota. Factories. And. Used, to supply, hydrogen, to the forklifts. And second stage, low, carbon. Power. Low carbon power, transport. Heat. Heating. And. Industrial. Processes. In every field. Like this. And, finally. The. Elimination. Of. Reliance. On fossil, fuels. Through. Greater. Distribution. Of hydrogen. Over, wide, areas. Like this. We are now, on this. Stage. And i am also chair, of, this. Project. As for the. National, hydrogen, strategies. This is the example. Of, the germany. Uh, national, project, national, hydrogen, strategy, in germany. Uh they are, of course. Also. Considering. The combination, of. Large, introduction, of renewable. Energy. And green, hydrogen. So. Surprising. Is the, budget, size. Batch size is nine billion. Euro, for hydrogen. Corresponding. To 10, billion, us dollars. Or, one, trillion, japanese, yen. Fishes, correspond. To, which correspond, to, the. Seven percent, of total, budget, of. Economical. Recovery. After, covet, 19th. And hydrogen, production. To. Buy, electrolyzers. Uh the five gigawatts. By 2030. And 10 gigawatt. Uh by. 2040. Like this. As for the united, states. The famous. National, project, so-called. Hydrogen, at scale, energy, system. Operated. By the. Doe. Arun. Was. One of the panelists. Was, number two or number three. Of doe. Before. The important. Thing, is, matching. Among, energy, sectors. Electrical. Grid. And hydrogen, generation. Storage. Distribution. And utilization. Including. Industrial. Applications. The concept. Is, almost, similar. Like others. As, folks. About, china. This is also, surprising. The, this slide. Was given to me by the. Leader. In hydrogen, in china. Professor. Mao, in xinhua, tashi, shingho university. The. Total. Budget. For two years, 2017. To 2018. Uh. Uh the. 230. Billion, yuan. Correspond, to, 30 billion, u.s dollars. And 3.5. Trillion, japanese, yen. 3.5. Cho n. So, not only, in japan, as shown here. Not only in japan. But, also. Germany. United, states. China. Started, to realize. The, hydrogen. Society. Finally. I would like to. Mention, about the fundamental. Researches. Related. To, heat, and mass transfer. Including, the fuel cell. And electrolyzer. I don't have enough time to explain the details. Cure cell, and, electrolyzer. And hydrogen, oxygen, combustion. And turbine, system. And. Distribution. Distributed. Cooperative. Energy, system. And. Hydrogen. Carrier. And supply, systems. Including, the physical. Properties. Of liquid, hydrogen. Including. The, ortho. Para. Transitions. The yes we'll mention. About, this, later, i think. And, many, others. Including, fundamental. Physics. Chemistry. Thermodynamics. Uh. Very, important. Uh research, subjects. Still. Play a very important, law to realize, the hydrogen, society. Some example. We did in tokyo tech. Shown. Here. This slide, shows, the tokotek. Interdisciplinary. Research, projects. On, pefc, polymeric, light fuel cell. With higher, energy, efficiency. And durability. In collaboration. With, mechanical, engineering. Electrochemistry. Catheteric. Chemistry. And polymer science. Like this. So we did this kind of collaboration.
Among Various. Different. Uh professors. Among professors. Of different, research, fields, these. Different, background. This is also one example. I myself, did many many years ago. I used, molecular, dynamics, to calculate. The proton. Transport, in the membrane. And also. Use. I did's. First principle, analysis. For the. Self-catalytic. Reactions. For polymeroid. Fuel cells, like this. Now the. This is old one, but, i my background. Background. Is mechanical, engineering. But we suffered. Submitted. This kind of result, to, general. Electrochemical. Society. Like this, but this is old one, and now. Much higher. Uh stage. Of research, or now, going on. By, many. Researchers. Including, the mechanical. Some, thermal. Mechanical. Engineering. Field. Of, summer engineering, field. Another. Topic, is, like, like this. Another, example, is, a new. Cycle. Of hydrogen. And pure, oxygen. Combustion. Gas turbine. Combustion, product, is only steam. And then. The simple. Hybrid. System. Of. Britain's, cycle. And writing. Rankine, cycle could be possible. Like this. Uh. As shown in this temperature, entropy. Diagram. As shown here. Uh. Very very high efficiency. Could be. Realized, in principle. But. We need. Many. Fundamental, researches. To realize, that so, we are now, starting, this project. Supported. By. Nato. Finally. I'll. Say, about, the concluding. Remarks. Hydrogen. Has a high possibility. To realize. Energy, security. And zero, co2, emissions. The, energy, and the environmental. Sectors, of, sdg's. Sustainable. Development, goals. And japan has 30 years history, of. Developing, hydrogen, and fuel cell technologies. And the basic hydrogen. Strategy. And roadmap. Has been, established. R d of hydrogen, technologies. Are remarkable. In japan. And fuel cell vehicles, and stationary. Philosophical, generation. Systems. Have been, already, commercialized. Demonstration. Of hydrogen, gas turbine, system, for power generation. And, cogeneration. Are going, on. To realize, a real hydrogen, society, including, including, the, industry. And various, challenging. Projects, are now going on. Using, co2-free. Hydrogen. From, renewable. Energies. We still, have, many, many, fundamental. Scientific. Research, subjects. Related, to, heat, and mass transfer. With, electrochemistry. That's all, my presentation. Thank you very much for your kind attention. Thank you. Thank you very much professor, ken okazaki. That was a really great talk. So now we want to move on to the discussion, but before you doing so. I would like to do, uh suggest to do a poll. Actually i was supposed to do it before, ken's talk. Which i forgot to do so i'm gonna do it oh that's okay. Sorry about that. So, um. Here is the. Poll. Okay, so do you see this, i guess everybody sees it or maybe not, let me. I guess, do you see it, yeah okay people started voting so i think. You see it so at present hydrogen, plays only a small role in the energy sector, what is the most important, factor. For a wide use of hydrogen's, energy. So they were asked there was actually a question, related, to this poll. So i think this poll is quite timely, yes yes. Okay, so we reached already half. 50 percent, 50, of the people already. Answered. 70. Let's give it 30 more seconds. Or maybe 15.. Okay thank you very much, we're going to end the poll here, and. Show you. The. Result. Okay so here is the result. 34. Of people voted for hydrogen, cost. And then the next one is technology, innovation. Follows. National, strategy. Investment. And public, outreach. Okay. Which should we do the other poll also now. Uh there's a second one. I'd like to mention, something, about please do please do. Great yeah i, i talked. Every, every point. In my talk.
So, But, the. Result, is very correct. Hydrogen. Cost, is the key. To realize, the hydrogen, society. And to reduce the cost. Innovative, technology, is definitely, necessary. So, i agree, this, results. John. Please. Yes, do the next support. Sure. Okay, so i'm, going to do the next. Paul. Um. All right how do i do the next one. No. Hold on. Yes. Um. Yeah here, i'm sorry, okay. So this is a second poll. What is the most what is most important, when we discuss, the difference. Different roles between battery driven electric vehicle. And fuel cell driven electric vehicle. I think a lot of people are also interested, in this question. So please start voting that way. So that we know what you're thinking now before the discussion. So that to, the panelists can elaborate, on this. During the. Discussion. Okay, so we have a ready to reach 71 percent. 71, percent. We can close it. Almost. In case people are still voting. All right. Okay let's stop it here. And let me share. The result. Cost and, lifetime. 37. And, the, 34. Very similar. Charging time and refueling, time. And then others are answering, size and cruising distance. Yeah yeah, right maybe we can go around the uh. Can maybe you can start, making comments on this. Yeah. But, those items. Depend on the. Different, sun point. The. Both. Fiercer, vehicles. And, battery. Vehicles. Both, are very expensive, now. Okay. But, i think, the, charging, time. And, referring. Time. Hydrogen, refilling, time so much different. Three minutes. And. Starting. Three minutes. And 30. 30 minutes, and a very. Large difference. So. This. Result. I, almost, agree. But uh. How do you think june. Or we can ask the palace arun do you have any comments, on these. Oh, you're mute i think you're muted. Can you hear me now. Yeah. Good um, first of all, it's great to be on a panel, with. My old friends. Ken okazaki, and yasu, takata. We have been friends for many many years now. So. And also congratulations. To mit, for. Launching this and continuing, with this. It's a great forum. To kind of. Discuss. Details, of issues that we all care about. The issue about. The battery, versus.
Hydrogen, Fuel cell for transportation. There are multiple, ways to dissect, this. I can tell you about the u.s side. The. Long-haul. Trucking. Which, requires. The trucks to be on the road. As much as possible. And for fast refueling. There is, a, significant. Interest, in hydrogen. But hydrogen, will have to compete, with battery. Uh long-haul trucking as well. The. Uh gravimetric. Energy density of hydrogen, is is, very high. And so if you're looking about loads and. Carrying, capacity. Of trucking. That makes a lot of sense. And these are. Centralized. Facilities. For. Refueling. And that makes a lot of sense. At least in the united states. For. Light duty vehicles. The battery electric vehicles. The infrastructure. For distributing, electricity, already existed. If the electricity, distribution. Infrastructure, did not exist before. I think battery electric vehicles would have had a really difficult time. But that already, has been around for. The last hundred years. And so refueling. Is, and you're not you don't. Need. Fast refueling. Of battery. Uh. You know, too often. And so you can, you know stay at home and, get it. Get it charged, overnight. And most of the charging that we are going to see and if you talk to the folks in, tesla for example they'll say most of the charging is level two charging, which is roughly about 10 kilowatts, or so. And that's adequate, for most of the charging for like, vehicles. So i think in, in the light tt area, the battery electric vehicle is going to play a very dominant role in the united states. So i think you see. The different. Parts, of the, transportation. Sector. Adopting, different technologies. For. Given, a the economics. And the, just the logistics. Of things. So i think that that would be, that's where we see things going. In the u.s. Thank you yes sir do you have the. Yeah, so, yeah. I'm i, i'm, a little bit surprised, with you know two, you know uh. Polls. About the the same answers. You know the majorities. Uh. Many people are, thinking costs. Regarding, the charging time and refilling, time. So, can mention that uh, uh currently, the, you know fair service. Needs only three minutes. To refill, the, hydrogen. But the former time so the hydrogen. Uh. Tank pressure, was. 35, mil pascal. At that time the cruise range was. Not so. Long, compared with a gasoline. Car. You know then, so. Uh. Tongue pressure, increases, up to, 70, megapascal. Now, maybe, 80 megapascal, or something like that. So. Then. That when we, fill the hydrogen. Into the high pressure tank. So, adiabatic. Compression. Of gas under, increase the temperature. Therefore. The i. Currently, the maximum. Limit temperature. Is, 85. Degree celsius, therefore. So. Before refilling, the hydrogen. So we have to, cool down. The hydrogen, in advance. Down to minus 40 degree celsius. Okay. That. That's why the hydrogen, dividing. Becomes very com. Complicated. And uh. It's not easy to reduce. That is my. Observation. Thank you. Jun. Yes, please go up of course of course. Just the discussion. About, the. Mobility. The hydrogen. Utilization. For mobility. But as i said in my talk. The. Hydrogen. Is more important. In the industry. To realize, the co2 free society. Okay. Uh. Only, the, mobilities. Share, only, 10 or 15, percent, of total, energy consumption. Others. Most of. Uh, energy consumption. Is. Done, in, industry. So. Large scale, power generation. Using hydrogen. Large scale. Some kind of. Power generation. Of, the. Fields, using fuel cell and larger one, using, the hydrogen turbine. Even the hydrogen, boiler. Can reduce the co2 emissions. Okay. So, large. Scale, hydrogen. Consumption. System is, will be more important, when we realize, the co2 free society. Using hydrogen. I'd like to ask some opinion, about that arun. Yeah i mean look today. There's a global production, of about 70 million tons of hydrogen. Globally, per year. Almost. There's a, large fraction, of that it goes into ammonia, production. Which goes into fertilizers. We eat our food. Based on hydrogen production. Right so i mean, that's a that's a big chunk about 25, 30 percent of hydrogen, consumption. The other. Large fraction, is is refineries, petrochemical, refineries. So ken is exactly, right. That most of the hydrogen, you use today is industrial. Little for transportation. Frankly. And. I think in the future. That 70 million tons of hydrogen, per year, we hope it gets to about a billion tons per year, because we need that hydrogen. For decarbonizing. The very, difficult. Sectors, to decarbonize. Which is industrial, heat. And and steel production. Concrete production. We need a fuel, to be able to do that because we cannot do everything. With cheap electricity. So i think that's where the hydrogen. The big use of the hydrogen, is going to be. And that's why we need a. You know, i think someone asked about the cost of hydrogen, production. And that cost for carbon free hydrogen. Has to come down. By a factor of two or three.
To Compete. With the, carbon-based. Hydrogen, production, that has co2, emissions. And so there's a lot of research that is needed. For. Both the cost reduction. And sort of mobility, of hydrogen. As well moving hydrogen. From one place to the other and we can get into that discussion, later on. Okay. Thank you very much, yeah so so that you mentioned, there were actually quite a few questions about transport. Not i don't mean vehicle but the transport, of hydrogen. And uh so for example, japan, has few primary. Energy, sources, so hydrogen, which is a secondary, energy source should also be imported, from overseas. As shown in the presentation. But isn't it difficult, to import, hydrogen, because of its low volumetric. Density. There's also a question about lca. What is lca, of. Liquefying. Lignites. In australia. And bringing it to japan. Where there's also questions. Asking. Isn't it better to. If using brown coal, isn't it better to import, brown coal instead, of the. Uh instead of the gasification. Inside japan. So um, we can take a. Question at a time so, but i think in general the question is how do you bring. Hydrogen, to japan and what is the cost and the lca, of it, oh yes, yes. In the early stage, of, this. This project. Uh the khi. Kawasaki, heavy industry. Uh. They. Calculated. Estimated. The. Cif. Cost. At the port, cif, cost. To be, about. 30, yen, per. Notable. Cubic meters, they correspond, to about. Three dollars. Per. Kilogram, hydrogen. Okay, so, even. If we, include. The, extra. Energy, extra, cost. For the liquid fire. And, gas fire. We can. Realize. The. Cost. To be, about, three dollars, per kilogram. In the future. Not now. This year is just starting the demonstration. Project. It was actually a question. Yeah yeah a lca, lca, analysis. Has been done, many, by many people. Okay. Dear other panelists, have comment on this. I have a comment on the you know the. If we, import. The. Hydrogen, in a liquid. Basis. So, yeah i think the liquefaction. Cost. Is a quite expensive, like, i think. By that calculation. The minimum. Work, for liquid function. Will be that almost, 10 percent, of the. Uh. Hhv. High, higher heating body. Or more. Or more, yeah. I mean that, i said i, i mentioned about the theoretical. Work therefore, the, actual work is i think, two or three times more. At least. Then, so, the important thing is to. How to recover, the cold energy. Is. One issue, when we import. Especially, in japan, japan must, import. In the form of. Liquid. Hydrogen. Maybe, so, i think, yeah. The, so-called. Low temperature. Exergy. Okay. Exactly. How to use, low temperature, exergy. In japan side, is quite important. First we, try, to use, low temperature. Exergy. To make the pure hydrogen. For the hydrogen. Oxygen. Ah sorry. To make the. Pure oxygen. Separate, oxygen, from the atmosphere. To realize. The, hydrogen. And pure oxygen. Gas turbine, system. But. Through the actual. Precise. Consideration. Calculation. It's impossible. So but. Low temperature. Exergy. Can. Enhance, the turbine. Efficient. Turbine efficiency. By, the. How to say, inter, me, intermediate. Cooling. System, in the gas survive. Okay, for that, i mean also. After, you know. Intercooler. Of the intercooler. Oh yes. For that purpose. Low temperature. Energy, or exergy, can be. Effectively. Used. To. Increase. Overall, efficiency. Okay. But through uh. Discussing, about that. Now for some thoughts on, hydrogen. Infrastructure, and hydrogen moving hydrogen. The way i look at it is. There are two sites one is on land, and the other is oversea. Over oceans. On land. And you know. We all talk about, moving hydrogen. But the biggest, challenge. And i'll only give the u.s perspective. The biggest challenge, is to build, the infrastructure. Of pipelines. To move hydrogen. This is not, just a technical, issue. There are hydrogen, and middlemen. Issues that we need to address. But it's just the issue of logistics. Of permitting. Of nimby. All kinds of. Challenges. So, on land, the best way to move hydrogen. Is to move electrons. And figure out, how to produce, cheap.
Hydrogen, By water splitting, with the electrolyzers. That can talk about, and the cost of the capex of the electrolyzers. Has to come down by a factor of, two to three, to make that hydrogen. You know. Carbon free hydrogen cheap enough, the other way to move hydrogen, with existing, infrastructure. Is methane, it's natural gas pipelines. And then. Use methane to produce the hydrogen, because the great way to move hydrogen. Is by, ch4. And. So there is steam methane reforming. And, and this. Which is existing, then if you do the carbon capture. Of steam ethan reforming. You know the cost is going to be about, dollar fifty to two dollars a kilogram, somewhere there. And that's, and that's the competition, for any other ways, to produce hydrogen. So. That's the existing, technology, and now there's research going on research going in my lab on methane pyrolysis. So if you can produce. Hydrogen, and produce solid carbon. That's much much easier to handle, than co2. And maybe if you can make carbon fibers. You could use it for other applications. And there's a in a sort of tool rev. Two revenue. Approaches. The question really comes up what about moving, hydrogen, across oceans. Today's, infrastructure, i mean there's a cost associated, with hydrogen. That can. Talk about. But the infrastructure. To move. Large, amounts of hydrogen. Today, exists in lng. Okay. And once you move lng. You can then reform, it, to produce hydrogen. In your local. Entity, and then distribute, it. And i think that. In terms of just infrastructure. Cost. And the time. That lng infrastructure, already exists and much easier to move that move it that way, not to say that we should not be building, liquid hydrogen. Ships. But, that will be complementary. And has to compete. With existing lng, infrastructure. To move large amounts of. Fuel. Temperature, level, as, uh. So much different. Liquid, liquid hydrogen. The temperature, is to. Minus. 253. Degree. 100. Degree. Lower than the, liquid. Natural, gas, yeah. So technology, is somewhat, different. Including, the insulating. Heat insulating. Process, also. So, so it's much easier, it's much easier to move lng. Than to move like. Why why. Because. The technology, already exists the people it's already, going on right now yeah. G is being moved, from. Different parts of the world. Right, so. Anyway, uh. Arun said many things. Uh, very important things, but. To distribute, hydrogen. On land. The. We have no pipelines. In japan. But the u.s. You have. Many, pipelines. Natural gas pipelines. So. Add the hydrogen, into the natural gas pipelines. It's one possibility. Another one is the. Combined. The. Hydrogen. Co2, hydrogen. And. Co2. To form. The methane. And then. Use, the. Existing. Infrastructure. Of gas pipelines. But. The. What, is. What, i am, interested. In, interested, in. Most interested, in. Is. The, direct, conversion. From, methane. To. Solid, carbon, and hydrogen. As you said. I don't even say that about that, that's right that's right. Yeah i mean it's been around to make carbon black, for a long time and there's a. Company called monolith. Out here that is making, doing methane pyrolysis. Not only carbon black, other. Uh some sophisticated. Structure, could be also possible. Right, exactly. Yeah. So that's and in fact right now we have an rpe, project, to. To take methane, and produce hydrogen, and carbon nanotubes. At scale. And this kind of subject, i liked. Because then you could, you know the united states doesn't produce, enough carbon fibers, in fact most of the carbon fibers we import from japan. And so if we can build. Using our own natural gas. Uh produce hydrogen, carbon free hydrogen and make carbon fibers. That has implications, in the auto industry and many other industries. Yeah. I think that's very um, sort of. Great in discussion, for young people who are listening to this webinar, i think they were looking for sort of, technical. Challenges. That they could contribute, to this scene i think that that was really great. And also fundamental. Fundamentally, yes fundamental, science i'm sure a lot of people are interested in the fundamental, science chemistry, and, so on, let me just switch gear a little bit i think we also have, some questions, getting some questions about the safety, issues.
Of Hydrogen, technology. For example. Luke richard, higgins. What are the safety requirements, concerns. Associated, with hydrogen, vehicle. Are there, currently, classifications. For testing. These. Certification. Of these vehicles. And there's an anonymous. Question for anonymous, question. Asking questions related, storage, safety, for large-scale, hydrogen. How to ensure the safety, of vehicle, airplane. Loaded with flammable. Hydrogen, gas, which could also make hydrogen, vehicle airplane, costier. To engineer. And slower. To win public acceptance. So, maybe. Either yasuo, or can maybe you can. Start oh really. We do not have any accident. Before, we discuss. About that. We, have to, know. The difference. Between, explosion. And, burning, okay. Burning, velocity, burning velocity. Is very small, less than one meter per second. And, explosion. Is. There has a, very high speed higher than the. Sound speed. When we solved, this kind of problem. Theoretically. We can, have two eigenvalues. One eigen, eigenvalue. Correspond. To the. Normal. Propagating. Frame. Less than one meter per second, here's the solution, the other. Eigenvalue. Corresponds, to the. Detonation. Detonation. Explosion. Which has. Higher. The. Velocity. Higher than the. Sound speed. So, we, so many, public, people. Misunderstand. The. That the, difference, between. Explosion. And flame propagation. Okay. So burning. And explosion, a different, phenomena. Based on, the very fundamental, standpoint, okay. Again. As can mention, you know the sound speed speed of sound of hydrogen, is very fast. I think four times higher than methane. Yeah, yeah therefore, if, there is a crack. So. Regulator, is very fast. And the inside, temperature. Decreases. Okay you know rapidly. More rapidly, than, you know. Natural, gas. Even, if. We have a, same pressure. Initial pressure in the tongue. Yeah so. If uh therefore that for safety, i i i. I don't have, any you know. Uh. How do you say. I'm okay with hydration, but. Many people. Don't, don't like, okay. Because. Can you mention that you know we, we, when we, are. Getting the, hydrogen, vehicle we are sitting on the, high pressure. Tank. Better, the toyota. Before, toyota, introduced. The fiercer, vehicle, into market. Of course, they did. Test and test and test. For safety, okay. So toyota people said that. Even, if, the, big. Collision. Collide. With other. Vehicles. When the, car itself. Is. Totally, destroyed. But. Hydrogen. Tank. Remains, as it was. They said. They did, the test. And test, and test. To keep the safety, of course. Can i just add just one more comment i completely, agree. With what ken and yasu said. Anything. Any energy, stored. Has safety issues. Okay anything stored, you take a lithium-ion, battery, yeah yeah in fact the oxidizer, yeah it's already there, i, of course. Yeah and, and so, i i think one has to look at it comprehensively. As to. I mean lithium in a battery you don't even need outside air, the, fuel and everything, you have a short circuit, lithium and battery you're going to catch fire. So. But that you know this technology. That has been developed, to keep it safe. And, and yes there are a few accidents, and there but, there's, huge amount of attention. Spent for. Uh for safety. The same thing in fuel tanks in gasoline, fuel tanks, i mean, recall in the 70s, and 80s, the gasoline, tanks were blowing up in some of the cars. And that, you know people have spent time, to make them safe, so i think. Safety, is, is a technical, issue. Number one, but it's also a societal, acceptance, issue, that, it's going to be safe. Yeah. Great great discussion. So we're also getting, i think some of that was mentioned already during the discussion, but we're getting a lot of questions about the hydrogen. Propulsion. Direct propulsion, i think using hydrogen. Uh peter. Godard. Why fuel cells, and not just run. H2. Into existing internal combustion, based engines. And generators. Can we instead. Uh convert, internal combustion, energy vehicles, to run. On h2, and convert honda diesel generators, to run on h2 for example. And so on. Um. Yes. So. Could do anybody any of you comment on this. Using hydrogen for propulsion. For airplane. Um. Vehicle. People, or, even, yeah. Internal combustion, engine for example, vehicles. Or, i guess airplane can be one of the examples. I think the combustion, the, the combustion, is different, premixed. You know hydrogen, combustion, is um, is different from premixed. Um. You know methane, or other natural gas combustion, so the flame as, ken was pointing out the flame speeds are different. So the burner design, has to be. Different. And so. It's not that it cannot be done but um.
You Know. We we need to adapt to. The. Uh to the fact that. Uh it's a different fuel, and the reactions, and the reaction kinetics, are different, and as a result, the system has to be modified. Very more than 20 years ago. 1990s. The bmw. Bmw. Actually developed, the hydrogen, combustion. Internal, combustion, engine. And successfully. Run in the, munich. City. I drove by. Also. In munich, okay. But. Uh. The, hydrogen, consumption. Is not so large. So, liquid hydrogen. If we keep the liquid hydrogen, for a long time. The, liquid hydrogen, will boil off, okay. So. At this stage. Is. A. Liquid hydrogen. Hydrogen. Internal combustion, engine using, rigid hydrogen. By, bm. Disappeared. Now. But. Bmw. Has. Very, deep, and high. Level, experiences. About that. Yeah so do you have any comments on this yeah, uh i have a question, to, uh ken about the you know, efficiency. Uh. Of the internal, combustion, engine. Uh hydrogen. And also the. Uh field service. If we, you compare. The efficiency. Which is advantageous, maybe, it feels a big goal, right. Of course fiercer, vehicle, has a, higher efficiency. Yes much higher efficiency, i think. How many, maybe 40 bucks uh. Oh yeah. The. Internal, combustion, engine has. Used to be, used to used to be. Having. Efficiency, of, about 14, percent. But 40. 14. But. It used to be okay. Now. The. High, efficiency. Vehicles, coming. Out so. The. Internal, combustion. Engine. Efficiency, is coming, up. Very, rapidly. Nearly. More than 40 percent now. So difference. Is becoming. Very smaller, and smaller. Yeah. Still. Feels the vehicle, has a high higher efficiency. But the difference. Uh. Is becoming, smaller, and smaller. Yeah that's what i thought i mean, just a question for ken. The octane, number of hydrogen, is more than 130. Right it's like 130. 540. So which means. Even with spark ignition. Engines. You can go up to higher compression, ratio without knocking. And if that's the case you, should be able to get pretty high efficiency. With higher compression, ratio. Even with spark ignition you don't need compression, ignition. Yeah. So, uh to increase, the. Uh. To. To realize, the higher efficiency, for internal combustion, engine. Hydrogen, internal combust, engine, is very active, i have no, experience, on that, but. Competing. Fuel cell, high efficiency. Engine, high efficiency. And computing. Okay. And in the future both. Should be, important. I don't agree. Yeah i think the the benefit, of having the engine is that the capex. Is much lower. And so if the efficiencies. If the efficiency, becomes competitive. The operating, cost, is, for the same amount of energy power, and energy. Is roughly then becomes the same so the, capex, will determine. And so the capital cost, of the engine is much lower. Now having said that there are hydrogen, embrittlement, issues that we should not forget. And, we still don't understand, fully what is hydrogen in britain and how it works. So there are these other issues that, and someone said about, 20. In introducing, hydrogen. In natural gas pipelines it is true you could do that. We still don't completely, understand. What the impact, of that is going to be on the lifetimes, of the pipeline. And. Because we don't completely understand, hydrogen, embryonic. And so this is this is scientific, issues. That are still, wide open, for. Our students and postdocs, to look at. Yeah, yeah yeah. I think that that's a very great comment, and i think it's very encouraging. Yeah. Okay so um, we're getting, i i'm very happy to see that people a lot of people are positively, impressed, by the um. The spread of household. Nfr. But at the same time people are asking what is the dollar per kilowatt, or dollar per watt. For the household, generator. Or the cogenerator. And i think we have this discussion, with ghan before the session, and. You did, you didn't really know the numbers i just want to ask the, audience, now. I'm sure there are japanese, researchers. In the audience. If you know, if you know, what. Dollar per kilowatt. In a farm gives. Please raise your hand, so that we are going to pull you up on the stage. I am not sure. Uh. Because. The. The. Private. The stationary. Fiercer, co-generation. System in the private houses.
Has, To. Producing. Heat, and, electricity. So, we cannot, discriminate. How many percentage. For electricity. How many percentage, of energy. Goes to. Heat. It's not so easy to separate. The. We can discuss. The, total. Amount, of. Energy consumption. Okay. So. One reason, is, i'm not. Careful. To, measure. The. Payment. Always, my wife did. So. The another reason is the separate, of heat. The cost of heat and electricity. Is. Not so easy. And in general. The. Electricity. Output. Is, maximum. Less than one kilowatt. It's not enough for the usual, house. So. Mixing. Of electricity. And heat, we have to discuss. The. Combining. Both but, i cannot, say it's a correct number. But uh. What i can say now is. Lower. The. Energy, cost including, heat, and electricity. Lower. Than, the existing. Energy. I can say very much but i can say. Um. So. I think, we're sort of, yeah we're running out of time but for this question. Uh, we will. Ask. People who know professor, shikazono, at university of tokyo probably may know, and then post the answers, to the youtube, through gone chan, okay. All right so uh before. Closing, i think we, have about three minutes left or so i just wanna to. Make sure that you have all the panelists, have said everything you wanted to say, so, why don't we just take, turn and. Make concluding, remarks, let's say. Uh maybe we will finish with ken, and maybe we can start with yes, would you like to make some comments, for the overall. Discussion. Well thank you very much i'm. I was so excited, with this uh great event, and, yeah, i enjoyed. The discussions. With ken and. Alone. Uh yeah. Hydrogen. Is uh you know, as. Uh can mention, it's a, secondary, energy, so. Therefore, so i think that uh we have to. Make use, hydrogen. With higher, efficiency. So, otherwise, we cannot. Be. We will not be able to, have a. Hydrogen, society, as. Can. Define. You know. That is mine. So therefore the, uh, maybe. So we need. Many, great efforts, to increase, the. Efficiency, of. Each, you know, elements.
Okay, That is my, uh. You know. Comment. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. A room. Sure uh so first of all let me just make some, general remarks. Whenever, we talk about energy. And we want to make decisions, about strategies. It has to be based on a balance, between. Economy. Between, the environment. And national, security. If you ignore one of them it'll come to bite you at some point, in the future. So, that so i'm so glad, ken mentioned security. Because we often forget that in an academic. Discussion. And so so that's number one. Number two, is that. When we look at a. A, um. Something like hydrogen. Which is going to be a secondary, energy. We got to look at it as a whole system. In the generation, side. In the, mobility. Moving. Large amounts of energy across the world, and across. Land and ocean. And the use, of the hydrogen. And there are greenhouse, gas emissions, in all of them. So there's a question of economics, of cost cost really matters and in fact, much of the r d goes into actually reducing, the cost. But there's also co2, and greenhouse gas emissions, and so we have to look at that holistically. At, all of these sectors the generation, and this competition, out there. Moving hydrogen. And then. And then, um. Moving hydrogen, in the broadest sense of the world is moving energy. And then, you could convert that to hydrogen, later on. And then the use of the hydrogen, and the most efficient use of the hydrogen. And in all of this again. Economics, matter, and who. Where that energy come from, comes from, internationally. In controls the geopolitics. Of the 21st century. So. We have to look at that holistically. And think about strategies, and think about, and in terms of research. In all of these whether it is the generation, side, with low cost greenhouse gas emission three, hydrogen. Moving, side and the use. Uh there's research, opportunities, galore. So i wish i was now an undergraduate. Or graduate, student, getting into this field because this is going to be one of the most exciting, times. Of, research in energy and in particular in hydrogen. Thank you very much. Great comment. Ken do you want to close. Yeah i don't said everything. Yeah. I'm, always, saying the same, uh. To the student. Under to others. Uh. We have to look at, every. Different, part, of the er. Including, the economics. And the environment, of course and. So. But uh. Aaron's. I, definitely, agree, with arun. But. Finally, i'd like to say that. We still. Have. Many. Very, scientific. Scientific. Fundamental. Subjects. To do. As. Their conversion, from. Methane, to. Carbon material. Such like that, okay. So. Not only, is the overview. But, also. The. I like to come back, to fundamental, research, again. But really, i, appreciate, all of you. I really. Enjoyed. Talking, with you. And. Paul. And the questions. Thank you very much. And, thank you for doing it, thank you for doing a fantastic, job in just managing the whole discussion, appreciate it. Okay so let me just uh, before really closing let me um. Pull up my slide. Or. Their slide. To wrap up, i'm sorry i. Was supposed to. Do this now the announcement, for the next webinar, but i did this already so i'm going to be really quick. So. They'll be. Next week they'll our next visit next week, or maybe the week after. 19th, of august there will be this webinar. On thermal management, of electric vehicle, new energy engineering, challenge. And then also their, future events. Now. Let me wrap up. Please type in your suggestions, for future so we'll keep the q a mode open for another five minutes or so. So please, um. Type in your suggestions, for future events, speakers. Topics, and format. And please sign up on email lists for future notice. And past events videos. And q a, are on. Website. This website. Okay, so please, with that, we would like to. Close. This, webinar, thank you very much, professor, ken okazaki, professor yasik, takata professor, majimda. Thank you very much and, thank you all for listening. And. Good, morning good afternoon. Good night. Thank you.