Ideas Digital Forum 2018: Panel talk Exhibition, Collection, Audience
I have the privilege of having. A second kick at the can here and, this. Time I'm moderating, and. I think we're in for a really. Exciting. And informative. Panel. I think we're going to get to the real nitty-gritty about, some. Of the things that we, all have a, lot of questions, about I'd. Just. Like to get straight into it I'm gonna introduce our first speaker who. Is Zhang, Yan Yan he. Is an independent curator. Critic, and art administrator. He. Recently served, as advisor for. Corporate affairs and, development, to, anti, modular, which. Is the studio, of, the. Artist, Rafa, Lozano. Hemmer who I noticed, you had in your show, and was also in, the Whitechapel you, might have noticed one of the slides with the I the. Roving, eye that. Responds. To your. Biometric. Data. He's. Also director of the preservation, and access to collections that the Cinematheque, québécois, in Montreal. From 2010. To 2017. He. Was director, of the, Daniel. Lanois. Foundation. For arts and science and technology, from. 1998. To, 2008. Before, joining the foundation he'd, also been an associate, curator. Of media arts at. The National, Gallery of Canada, from. 1991, to, 1998. He. Was the initiator, and member of the management committee of, dokkan, research Alliance from. 2005. To 2010. And. Co-directed. A special issue of art press 2 in France in the spring of 2009. Entitled, media, arts conservation. And restoration, so. As you can see he's been very. Involved and a very heavy player for a long time so, I look forward to welcoming you John, please, take the mic. Thank. You. I'm. Gonna. Be. Here to see, my slides. First. I want to thank sign, up for the invitations, great opportunity, it's, also an also, an opportunity to reconnect, after many years of. Having. Being. Apart in. The world. Thanks, for the gallery here to host. This. Interesting. Conference. It's always nice to be in, the company of novel. Marisol, among. Others and, Amelie. Car and car team and other. Painters. Here. So. Maybe. My title, here is a bit pedantic. It's, much more simple than that I'm gonna go over a few projects. I did, while, I was at the National Gallery and. Some. Projects after the National Gallery trying. To see. Our, exhibition. Relates to, acquisitions. Among, other things so. We'll go through. This. Obviously. I haven't tried, to be exhaustive. You. Know I'm not, don't, pretend I can talk. Of, about. Every exhibition, that. Ever took. Place in, the country so, it's really. That. I draw on, my, own. Experience, I didn't. Include anything, that happened, in artist 1 centers, where. A lot of this happens. Actually. Digital. Art has been around for, quite a while in Canada as many. Of us have. Mentioned, and, for. Instance the first, few. Computer. Animation, experiments. Happened. In the 1960s. And. The NFB, in. Montreal. Also. At the NFB at the beginning of the 80s, there, was. The, creation of the studio telematic, the computer, invention studio actually. The. NFB. Imported. Computer. Developed, by the National, Science Council. And. They started to experiment with, it and one. Of the person, who, was, hired by the NFB, to experiment. With this computer was Daniel Agua who. Later. Created. Softimage. Incorporated. In, 1985. And, for, those, who. Don't know this, computer. Software, was. Instrumental. In. Creation. Of films like Jurassic. Park at the time. Also. It, was mentioned yesterday I, think the Canada Council created, the mid yard section, in 1982. And, right, of the bat there was a program, at. Some point I was responsible, for that program and it was called computer integrated. Media, it. Was opened to. All these, plans. Of. Practice, you know dancers, musicians, visual. Artists, any.
Artists. Could apply, to that fund in, order to explore, the use of computer. And, informatics. In, the production. Of works. Now. We go back into antiquity, in, the, early, 70s, these. Are three works went. To 2r with the photographs, and another, one I didn't. Find the photographs, but. These. Are three works by Norman, white that. Were purchased, by the National, Gallery in the early 70s. They. Were all. Acquired. From. The electric gallery, in. Toronto, that, gallery. Was. Active, in the 70s and folded. Around. 1980. 80. What. Well. When. I was at the National Gallery I did an exhibition of these three works that. Was in 1995. Since. 77. And, 76. There. Was these. Works were. Back, in the vaults and. Were never exhibited, again so. When obviously we. Took. Them out plug. Them in the, circuit. They. Didn't work so obviously. We had to bring the artists, and he worked with conservative. Conservator. At. The National Gallery to, repair, the tree works what's. Interesting here. Why I, point, these. Dates in. Order to. Point. One. Thing which, is that. The. Gallery the National Gallery was interested, in this artists as long as it was handled. By a gallery, by. Art. Dealer and, I. Think, it's something that, have has, not been really. Addressed by anybody, or mention, barely, mentioned, the, question or the role of. Art. Dealers, in. Acquisition. Of, museums. Very often curators, go shop, at. Art. Dealers they. Don't shop much outside, of I'm. Talking, about you know contemporary. Art. Curators. In museums. So. Here. We have an example of an artist who eventually. Was. Not. Or. The, gallery, didn't. Continue, an interest, in his work. And. My. Only supposition. Is that well. There, was no gallerist. Taking. Care of his, work anymore, so, they lost, interest. Maybe. There's other explanation. But I don't know what. It what it would be anyway. It's a fact that between. 77. And 95. These works, were. Not shown, and, since. 95, I don't think they have been shown again. That's work, by, Lucas. On portrait, one that, I showed in 93. 94. And, eventually. The gallery purchase the piece in 97. This. Is one. Of the first piece. Interactive. Work. That. Was entering the, National Gallery's collection. This. Work, one. Notable. Fact. About this work is that it one is still run apparently. On the original, system which. Is a Mac essa and it. Was programmed with HyperCard. When. I purchased, the work I purchased. All. The original. Element, so, there's a one inch videotape, with the video footage, all, the hypercard printed. So. That eventually if, if need be to. Reconstruct. The piece we. Could, read. From, the printouts and. Obviously. The computers, and everything else. Not. A piece I. Got. For the collection, at, the National Gallery is. Room of one's own by the. American artist, Lee nourishment, and it. Was part first, of an exhibition. Called. Leaner spend virtually, yours. And. This. Piece is. Peepshow. Basically. So. The specter visitor, comes and looks, into this. Little. Window, there and you, see a, little dollhouse and, you have a, video. Small. Video screen. With, a female. Character. Talking, to you and. Basically. Addressing. You as a voyeur. Jobs, were greedy we, did a big retrospective it, was actually. A. Collaboration. Between the. Kanto. The Museum of Contemporary photography. That doesn't exist anymore and the. National Gallery and. We. Showed early. Photographs, by, Georgia, greedy but. Georgia, greedy in the 80s, started. To, work with digital, imaging so. Very early he. Started, to. Create. Images, through digital means. And. Printouts, and later. On in the 90s he did the interactive. Works. And. In. That particular case. Exhibition. We, produced. A catalogue which, was a cd-rom, so. With. The artist we. Produced. That interactive. Catalogue. Obviously. Cd-roms. Try, to a, city rob made in the mid-90s. Try. To play, it now it, won't play so, eventually the daniela ruah foundation. Ported. Ported. It to the. Web so. You have the web. Address, down. There if, you want to see this. Catalog. One. Thing. I started to do at the National Gallery was. To, Commission, work this. Morning we heard about residences.
Residency. Programs are one way to have. People. Or. Help. Artists, produce new work. Commissioning. The work is another. Way. Of doing it. This, particular. One is Catherine. Richards charged, arts, actually. This was a collaboration. Between Catherine. The National, Research. Council, in Ottawa, some. Private. High. Tech companies, in the. Ottawa, region and. The, national gallery. Which. Allowed. The artists, to. Produce, this. New piece. Involving. Two. Glass. Art, actually. Biologically. Accurate. Glass. Arts. That. Would, be charged with. Some. Gas I don't remember all the details but, eventually, the. Spectator would enter the room touch. Those. Glass. Container. And then. It, would take your pulse and the, two arts if two people were there with. Synchronize, and in, the middle it would create, it's. Called. Tyrella. It. Would create. It's. A phenomenon, we see in the northern sky. Northern. Lights. So. This, was, a piece commissioned, by the National, Gallery we, had to fund it also through. Some. Fundraising. And, we. Went to the AT&T, foundation. To. Complete, the, funding. Another. Commission, was with Bill, seaman and American, artists and, met, the, bill seaman in, Kosovo. In the, mid nineties. Before. The said Khayyam was finished. The, building I mean was finished, so the, Jeffrey. Shaw at the time was doing if it's a yearly festival so. I, went, there and met with, Bill. I saw somebody's. Work there and. Eventually I said to him because his, work is based on what he calls, recombinant. Poetics, and. So. He's interested in politics, and I. Said to him I, said do you know of malama is a good. Addition in a bizarre. And, oh yes. Of course it's a great, influence. On my thinking, so. I said would you like to adapt, the, poem. And. Said yes so that's how, we came about to, work on that. Thing that, famous. Melody's. Poem. As. An. Interactive. Piece. And. The, piece is bilingual so we have the muhammad's, text in French and, we. Have the, English translation, of malhomme, stacks plus. Text, that. The. Artist. Added. To. The. Piece. How. It worked I. Didn't. Have a commission budget, and. The National Gallery it didn't exist so I had to use, exhibition. Fund, and. Partly. Also. Acquisition. Fund so part, of the contract was, that we pay. Traveling. Expenses, an, artist's, fee. For the production, time we. Bring in the. National Gallery and, TV. Studio so we, provided, the cameras, in those days we were shooting in betacam, SP big, cameras. So. We provide the equipment and so, on so. The artists came in the Ottawa. Region and, for, few. Days we went around and shoot shot. Different. Images. That. We seen the piece and then, he. Worked with his. Programmer. To, program the piece so we paid you. Know the fee for the programmer it. Was all laid, out in the contract and there, was a, clause. In the contract that were, saying if. Ever the, National Gallery wants, to acquire the work we. Will add. Another sum. Of so much dollars, and the, piece will be kept. In within. The collection the collection, eventually. That's what happened. The. Pieces. Part of the National Gallery's, collection that, no. Choice. Visa FM. Air which. Is our, second, piece. Virtual. Reality, piece the. First one was a small a small I've, been presented, during I see our conference, in 95.
In Montreal, at. The Musa Dagh cotta pave and. Eventually. I decided to, invite, her to present FM. Air at. The. National Gallery in. Those days these piece were running. On Silicon, Graphics station's. Computers. Worth like 500 thousand dollars and so we. Could put it off because. Softimage. Was was backing. Shaw. Davies was the vice president of, Softimage, so. The company, was backing, the project. So. We could afford. To. The. Necessary. Computers. Equipment. To, do. Such. A project. In. 2007. I didn't, in an exhibition, and, with. Montreal, Museum of Fine Arts which. Was called er, new, technologies, and, contemporary. Art that was. Celebrating. 10 years of the daniela foundation, so. Represented. 10 artists. Works, by 10 artists but a total, of. 20. Something works. We. Add a piece. By jessica, field who is here, and. You. See all the other artists. There after. The show, the, Montreal, Museum of Fine Arts, purchased. A, few. Works. Those. Two. Actually. I think from Jim Campbell they they purchased, a few. Of those screens. Because. They are you, know it pieces, once. Green Peace, so. I think they purchased a few of those and, from. David Rock abhi. They purchased this major. Installation. Called scene I. Have. Two minutes I just, want to mention, other. Galleries. That, has. Been involved with you know art and science art. And technology. One. Of those is the Ontario, art gallery, which. Held, the, exhibition. Of one, choirs, work, in. 93. And coming. Up. Caroline. Lang Gil is curating, a new. Show of. Wires, work. Paired. With other, artists. That were, influenced. By. Choirs. The. Galleries. Did, a major solo. Show with dividual. Rocker be in the mid. 2000. In 2004. Truly and this. Particular, piece year machine. For taking time which is a great great piece. Was. Commissioned. For that. Space. And. Eventually I did commissioned. The version of that for. Montreal, that, was shown in the building of the laundry, Foundation exotics. In Montreal and it. Was called, machine. For taking time bull Villanova and it. Was two screens actually. And. Finally. The. Fellas I know Hamer and this. Major, solo exhibition. At the Music Academy. Just. The past summer and. Showing. Something like. 26. Works I think it was. So. The. Ricotta. Pave being, a contemporary, art museum. Obviously. As over, the years shown, you. Know quite a bit of. Video. New. Media. As. Has been. Fairly good in, in. Committing, towards. That kind of practice. So. Maybe my two points, here is, twofold. One. Is, that. Galleries. May. Act as producers. They, have to have the will to do, so but they can act as producers, and then. You have to you. Know make a deal with the artist in. Order to produce. The work acquire. The work or let, the work go with, with the artist for. Instance at the National Gallery it, has happened that some work were commissioned. But not, acquired, so. The artist goes with his or her work and. You. Know keeps all the, copyrights. And everything and. The. Second point is that I, do think that you.
Need Some, some, sort, of specialized. Knowledge. As. A curator, I'm. Not talking, about technical. Knowledge I'm talking, about knowledge, of the networks, where, these artists. Work. And show, their work that. Are often. Outside of, the regular, venues. Or art. Fairs, although. Lately. We've seen more and more of that type of work like, Raphael shows in major art art, fairs but. Not all, artists. Do and, also there's all there's, all those, new practice, that. Are. Not represented, here and what I showed you that. Happens. On the web or other. Virtual. Spaces that. A. Specialized. Curator, will. Know about and would be able to bring to, a gallery now, if you faggotry, can not have such, a specialized. Curator. On staff well. Make room for inviting. Those. People. Once in a while one, of the problem. We. Face sometimes. Is. That galleries. Have their staff and the. Are very. Timid. Let's, say in opening. Up to other, curatorial. Proposals. So. I think it's a very important. Point. To make that, knowledge. And especially it's a specialized, field, and. You. Have to go around, to. Be. In contact with the works and the artists, and be able to bring. Those to the public eventually, thank. You. To, stay up there with them I can do it okay that's what I'll do next time so. Our. Second, speaker is David, ba ba and. David. Is a media, artist who's been active, in and for the death and disability arts. For. Over two decades he's. A parent, of two deaf children, and he. Lives in nature. On the outskirts, of London Ontario, not, the United Kingdom his. Creative, practices incorporating. Research and development, of vibrotactile. Technology. As a. Creative, medium this. Vibrotactile. Technology. Originally. Developed for, the Deaf is, essential. In BO bas artistic, practice, for, developing, more, accessible. Ways of creating, an, experiencing. Art in its, many forms, this. Work led to his establishment of, viber fusion. Lab in London. Ontario in. 2014. A creative. Multimedia. Multi-sensory. Researching. And supporting. Inclusive. Technologies. For, supporting, arts, practices. For, greater, accessibility. To the Arts in general he's. Also a founder, and Past Chair of London. Ontario Media. Arts Association. Member. Of the board of media arts Network, Ontario. And founder. And co-chair, of. Inclusive. Arts, London. He's. Recently received, funding, from the Canada, Council the, Ontario, Arts Council, the, social sciences, and Humanities Research, Council. The, Ontario Centers for excellence and, the. British Council of Canada he's. Going to speak to us on a very new, and exciting, topic that I think is. Gonna, be new for most of us and so I'm really looking forward to hearing this thanks welcome, table. Thanks. Thank you very much, and. Thank. You to. All. The. Members of your staff that have been involved in organizing, this and also. Robert, McLaughlin gallery, staff. Thank you so much. I'm, really appreciate being here I. Never. Get, totally comfortable, doing this, and. I sometimes have. Fits of anxiety, but appeal just kind of bear, with me well-well, work through this I'm sort of relying more. On, visual. Content. And, talking. So. Also. If, if. This were a fully inclusive. Program. Which I know certainly. All attempts, were made to, do that but initially. I would describe myself. So. I. Will. Bypass that because I assume all. Wasn't. Planned. There. We go already. I. Think, that speaks highly, of technology. I'm. Going to, start. Also, the other thing I would say is that a. Relaxed. Program. Chairs. Would be situated. Wherever, you. Know be felt like situating, them there, would be giant, bean bags all over the place. Because. You, know sometimes we get a little uncomfortable sitting on chairs but anyway all of that as a, bit, of an aside.
I'm. Going, to you, know modesty. Read. This short. Passage. From, an exhibition that I curated, called bio fusion, lab. Bridging. Bridging. Practices, in. Accessibility. Art and, communication. And. It was the, essay was written by a licensed, and ler, who. Is. Prophet. Dispelled. A critical disability studies at Ryerson University. In. 2014. Media artist David ba ba opened, viber fusion lab in London Ontario, in. Collaboration. With inclusive. Median, Design Center, at. Ryerson, University. Viral. Fusion lab. Run. By beaubien populated, by various multimedia and. Multidisciplinary. Artists from around the world is, an interactive. Multidisciplinary. Multi-sensory. Multimodal. Creative. Studio and it EA ssin space, that. Serves as a hub for research. Creation. Collaboration. Mentorship. And exhibition. Opportunities. All. Of the energies and activities, of vibra fusion lab are, focused, on the creation of new accessible. Art forms, through. Inclusive, technologies. Including. Vibrotactile. Technology. Which, is turning sound into motion, as. A, creative medium that expands, art making practices. And extends. Art engaging, experiences. I, can. Confidently guess, that there are no other collaborative. Research and, creation. Spaces. Like by the fusion lab in the, world I, don't. Know if she really sort of research that but we'll, go with it. The. Genius, and sheer innovation, of this collaboration, is the way that it brings together artists. And scientists. Who make emerging. Inclusive. Or adaptive. Technology. Accessible. Artists of all, disciplines, and of all abilities, in. Doing so very few gene lab contributes, not only to the requirement, to make artwork accessible. But, also to the abundant, creative, and innovative, opportunity. That, comes with, this requirement, in. Short vibra fusion lab and the technologies, ideas, and instruction, that. It offers has dramatically, changed the way we make and entire. So. Thank You Eliza. So. London. Ontario is. Population. About 350, people just as a little bit of background. Known, in the art community, for. Regionalism. In. The 60s with like, Greg Bruno and Marie Fabri woods already been mentioned people, like that I still, think I think we're still, getting trying, to come to terms with that period, of time and, London. I don't think wants to sort of get over it. So. I, think what happens in a lot of cases or, my, experiences, that you're sort of working under the radar all the time in London and not, really. Sort of the community. Doesn't really engage that much with the. Sort of more underground, activities. So. Even. Though I operated, the space for a, number, of years in London what, has really happened is it sort of branched out and a. Lot, of my work is actually happening outside of London. So. I'm going to. I've. Got three videos that I'm going to show of. Three artists that I've worked with, through. Vibrant fusion lab and so. The artists will essentially, for the most part be talking about their. Own experiences. And. Giving, you some kind of background of, the work that you're going to be seeing, so. Next. But. Before we get into that. This. Is sort of the mantra of ivory fusion lab which hasn't. Really changed much over the last six seven, years. It. Did evolve out of a supportive partnership. With inclusive media and Design Center. They. Were working, on developing a. Theater. Chair for the deaf a viber tactile, cedar chair for the deaf and I. Approached. Them, to. Talk about, the. The ways that that kind of technology, could be applied, into. Art making practice. And. They were very inclusive, and, we worked together for a number of years, so. It's, an interactive creative research studio that promotes encourages, the creation of a new accessible, art forms and of communication. I put. A great deal of emphasis on, languages, of communication. Because. I think we have various, ways of communicating, beyond, me. Standing here and talking, so. That's a kind of a big aspect, or a big sort of. Background. Around, by diffusion lab is how how, we can communicate on different. Levels and through different forms. So. Viper fusion lab investigates, the potential of vibration, as a form of artistic expression, and artistic. Enjoyment. So looking, at vibration, as a medium, independent. Independent. Ly, and. Then, a vibration. Lab explorers, emerging, adaptive, technologies. So. Always kind of looking, at. New. Technologies, that are being developed. Specifically. To support certain, physical. Emotional. Needs. But. Thinking, about sort, of re. Configuring. Or reimagining. That technology, as a tool, for. Art. Making, and. Abides by the social, model of deafness and disability I don't think I have to explain that. Ok. Next please. Yeah. So here it is I, guess, I do have to explain it. Social. Model of disability says, that disability is caused by the way society, is organized.
Rather. Than by a person's, impairment or an or difference, it. Looks at ways of removing barriers that, restrict life, choices for disabled, people, next. I, always was sort of attracted. By this notion, that vibration, is life and I think if we think about it it, pretty much is, where. We're, cellularly. Vibrating. Right now, and. We're. Also vibrating. Through, sound, etc etc so. Whoops. Yep. That, oh sorry. Go ahead yeah sorry yeah there, okay, so, this is one, artist, that I worked with and she's from Montreal, mo. Clarke. Multidisciplinary. Maytee artist. Looping. Pedal mistress. Spoken. Word poet, educator, artistic, producer public, speaker and act. So. Invited I, should, talk a little bit about just very briefly viral. Fusion lab has, functioned. Essentially, through. Project. Grants. Plus. Various. Associations, with universities, and sort of mm-hmm. In some fortunate, way getting connected with some cert. Funding. Along the way, so. Through. Project. Funding invited. Mo Clarke to come to, the lab, and. She said I just have one sort of. Thing. That I want to investigate, and that's water and. And, how can we work with water. So. Steve. I'm not sure if you were all but the last time ATW visiting. All the art gallery you took there. That should be a video is, that not a video yeah thank. You. So. She's essentially voicing, looping, and, then we're channeling that through four channels, into. Dishes. With, a very thin layer of water. So, over the period of the week. She. Practice, with. Her voice, changing. Frequency, and was able to manipulate. Disturbance. From. The water from one man to another so. That she created this lovely sort. Of visual. Visual. Visualization. Of sound. So. This was a projection obviously. Taken. Off of the floor. And projected. Over top. Okay. You thought that. The. Next, one was a really interesting one. So. It was this dis exhibition, what took place at tangled art gallery in in Toronto. For. Those of you who are not familiar with it it's a a new. Gallery opened, at 401 Richmond, under. The direction of tangled, art plus disability. And. It's. Modeled. Or it's it's. It's. Situated. As the only fully accessible, gallery. Space in Canada, and. So part of their role is to be. A. Model. Essentially, for other galleries. To. Approach and to. Develop. Their own you know program or accessible programming, in their own, institutions. So so. Deirdre Loeb some. Of you many of you may well know her she's a very. Prominent, Canadian, artist. Arts. Administrator, herb Florence based film video and installation, works our, self-portraits, uniquely, located between comfort, and trauma. Self-liberation. And, self and ailee's, annihilation. Steve. I'm not sure if you recall but the last time ATW visited, the tangled art gallery here in Toronto, there was a very unique exhibition, on display oh yeah I remember it was an interesting installation, by Vanessa Dionne Fletcher, called on your cervix you got it and while the current artist works in a more traditional medium, video she once again challenges, established, conventions of the art world, she sure does Deirdre loges admiring, all we accomplished, was created in collaboration with, viber fusion, lab and is that partnership, that makes the exhibition, so great for the blind and low-vision community.
Vibrational. Haptics allow visitors, to experience, the audio and video in a way I have never heard of before at an art gallery and because it's tango the accessibility, features don't end there recently, staff and volunteers were trained to give livedescribe tours, a mi special correspondent. Kathleen Forrestal, visited, dierdre's exhibition. And got, a tour. I'm. Very intrigued. As. Someone who is legally blind, the thought of visiting a video, art exhibition, isn't, something I would normally be excited, about but. When I learned artist, Deirdre Lok included, haptic tactile, elements, as part of admiring all the accomplished, at the tangled, art gallery I couldn't, wait to check it out there, are three video, art installations. With tactile. Audio, objects. Attached, the. Work. Is all video and it's. All performance, for the camera, so that's me performing, in a. Variety of different, settings and contexts. So, it has my body in it sir this office subject, and in, this case is all work that's best suited to maximize. The capacities, of tactile audio technologies. Another. Cool element, that made this show perfect for me was the newly added livedescribe, tours, and, I was lucky enough to be guided by two wonderful, volunteers, Marlena, and Victoria, this, piece is called Big Agnes this. Is a single-channel video projected. Onto the left hand wall of the gallery curator, in, residence Shawn Lee feels, this, addition was a no brainer the. Verbal description training, was kind of a natural next step for us we. Already have the guided. Tours, in which we work with artists. And with. Outside, resources, to, create. A guided, tour but, part, of the the reason why this was really, a great training, for us was, that it helped, us to engage with members, of the, blind and low-vision, communities. So what that means is we work with the, transcript, provided through, the artist but also are, able to interject things, like a, subjective. Narrative. It provides us that opportunity to create the best of both worlds this, tour is approximately. Ten minutes long and describes, three video installations. In, the SUBSCRIBE tour was very cool but, it is Deirdre's partnership, with viber fusion, labs David buh ba that helped create works that invite visitors to interact and, experience. The pieces with several senses just stop. Thank. You so, this is a these, fiber tactile, floors were designed, specifically. To match. The size of the video the. The, fort. Videos on the wall you'll notice that the video monitors. Are, about, this high so. Lowering them and. Also the floors, were ramped so that you could go up onto them with, wheelchairs, etc. So. You know thinking about the audience who is who might be attending what what were they needs in terms, of being able, to fully.
Explore, And enjoy the work, okay. We're going to put. The go-ahead here, to the. Next I've got two more videos that. Are about. Okay. So very briefly going into this project, that's right happening, at the moment is. With Chisato, minimum. Who's a london-based, London. Uk-based. Deaf. Artist born, in Japan. Sochi. The project, we're working on is called scored, in silence, designed, for small relaxed performance, bases scored in silence explores. The hidden perspectives, of deaf, survivors. Hibakusha. Of. The atom bombs have fell in, harush. Moon next aki 1945. Their. Lived experiences, and the impact afterwards. She's. Collected stories by, going to Japan and. Interviewing, survivors, and also collecting, archival, material. And. It. Includes, so, she's always worked a lot with sound, visualization. But. Sort of wanted to move into vibrotactile, into. Her work. So. We, were able, to, partnership. With a company called woojae which just came out with a very, recently, with a belt, a viper tactile belt. Or. If they call it a strap which. You can put on and you, get the, vibration, without the sound which is quite surprising. So. What we did was we were able to. Provide. 40. Of these. Straps. Or belts for the audience, and. Then we designed. With, jim. Ruxton from. Originally. From subtle technologies, now. Working, independently, as an engineer, and media, artists to. Develop, to. Vibrotactile. Systems. That were built. Into her costume, and placed, on her shoulder blades and. It was operated, through a Sennheiser. Microphone. System so it was wireless so. She was feeling the. Sound, production on her body as as it was taking, place. Instantaneously. So it was a fully immersive everyone, was sort of experiencing, the same thing okay. She's. Gonna and just, briefly talk about this, is sort of the trailer. Hello. Hello. I choose art a fun. Performer, and, artistic. Director, and. I'm going to tell you a bit about my, latest project, a. Good. It's. Called schooled. In. Silence. And. It tells the story like of. The history from 1945. When. America, dropped the. First atomic bomb, in. My country of Japan. In, two cities, Hiroshima. And Nagasaki. Recently. I met a, deaf survivor. And. When they heard these stories. It. Had a huge, impact on, me I. Started. To. Research, and. Interview. Collecting. These stories from other debt survivors, and. I've used these to create my, new promotion. It. Has a lot of elements. It. Includes, a, find language. The, new fabric hold, husband's. Animoto. It uses, animation. Remote. Images. By. Lighting. As well. As sold. And. Obviously for some of our audience members, they won't be able to access this, our game but they will be able to feel it using, one of these ballots.
This. Region. And. It vibrates very. Powerfully. Meaning. That you can access the performance usually. With. Sound and. Ravines. Whoo. Yeah. Hope, to see you there. We'll. Pass over, the next one. Hello. Yeah and then just two, back. Sorry. Go ahead yeah. So. That, opened just recently the digital. Bright. And digital festival, and. Next, week we're going to be opening at the. Manchester. Science. Festival, and, my hope is in, 2020. Spring. To bring it to Canada so, if, anyone's interested, in. Hosting. So. These are just, quickly these are some of the artists that we've worked with over the last six. Seven years and organizations, as well some. Of them are familiar, to. Some of you I. Think. Just the next one and. Thanks. I sorry, I went over time but thank you so much. Our. Next speaker is Black, Pearl. Zach, is an American Canadian designer, curator, and post-secondary educator. With, a critical, focus on the intersection of art and technology. Since. Relocating. To Toronto. Zach. Has produced, events, and publications, for, a variety, of venues including. The Art. Gallery of Ontario textile. Museum, of Canada V, tape the Gladstone, Hotel art. Scape, young place and inter access, among others he's. The former, artistic. Director, of the subtle, technologies. Festival, which, provided a platform for. Emergent. Must, multidisciplinary. Practices. Zach is also the co-founder and, managing, editor of capsula a digital. Publication. For the experimental, art, writing and, as. I understand, it he's currently. Pursuing. A, PhD, I, don't know how he does all of this. He. Can't, possibly have any free. Time whatsoever. He's. Going to be speaking to us about programming. Online. Exhibitions. In a, post internet, ecology. Thank. You again - Oh a ganar mg for organizing, this. Just. A quick plug since it was already mentioned, but capsula is actually, set to produce a publication, the, documents, this forum. Which we're very excited about. And. So, hopefully, we will find a way to let. You all know when that comes out in the New Year. So. Today. I want, to talk about something, that was mentioned this, morning which. Is post, Internet culture and I'm referring to it here as post internet ecology.
Obviously. I'm talking about this in the context, of online exhibitions. There's, a real cultural, shift that's gone on in the media scape over the last 10 to 12 years and, online. Exhibitions, the way that we maybe. Think about them now is probably. Realistically. Not the way that they really function, or in, my opinion deserve, to be. Exhibited. And engaged, with by. Museums. And public galleries and other cultural. Institutions such, as artists run centers today obviously we're concentrating on, museums. And public galleries. Just. Briefly if you're not familiar with the term post Internet, do not worry it does not mean that the internet is over, it means. That we have arrived in a time where we are actively living with the Internet and in a way where it actually bleeds, over the. Virtual, into, our physical everyday. Lives which I think we can all probably attest, to having. That as a lived, experience, the. Term was actually first created by a German, American artist, Marisol Olson, several. Years ago and she. Kind of started this whole ball rolling unintentionally. But, she created a new way of thinking about how the, Internet, has, a role and it was actually as it's, been stated many times earlier artists. Were very influential, in creating, this kind of new paradigm, of thinking before, I get to my first slide I also will just say briefly that my, master's, thesis was. About. The, death of the virtual exhibition, this. Was my claim. That. Was actually based on a statement, a paper by Patrick lighty who is a very well respected, artist. And curator himself. And was involved in the net art, movement, in the late 90s, and he. Said that even though art online continues. To persist. Online. Art is largely, over. And he doesn't mean that we don't have people who are making art, online. We obviously definitely. Do and more, and more in ways that are networked, and, kind, of invisibly, so but, what he was trying to get at is that the political, movement. That was net art in the 90s, has, really passed. Us and it's. More, about, the idea of how the. Social, the realm of the social, is governing, those kinds of interactions. Okay. So here's my premise, which, really I'll be truthful, with you is more of a provocation, so if it makes you a bit uncomfortable, don't worry so. Virtual, exhibitions, in the familiar sense anyway, I would. Argue are largely outdated. Because they're based on tropes of the late, 1990s. And the early 2000s. Or what. We can kind of uncomfortably, say is the turn of the century at, this point so, here's, my, your line of reasoning so. Even. Though they they, were definitely and, have always been as sort. Of web art or online art however you want to phrase that has been interactive. Early. Online exhibitions, were a passive, kind of user ship which is a tricky kind of terminology, but there wasn't the participatory. Element. That, we were used that we're now very much used to since web, 2.0, technologies. Beginning around 2004. Started, to arrive and so, it, also means, that largely these were, interactions. That were meant for a single user, usually. In a stationary, location, you know at that time most, of us did not have. As. I struggled to grasp it these things we had this but much larger and much heavier, at. That same time it also created, a kind of and I was happy to see that somebody was referencing Janet Murray it, created a kind of desktop, theatre which is not a bad thing but, it also means that there, is not a cross-platform, kind. Of mentality to it where we can walk out and experience, it on multiple devices in multiple, spaces and so all of these things have changed, quite a bit since then. So. My argument here, is that online exhibitions, need, to now reflect. The protocols, of those mobile, digital and network technologies, that we interact with and are part of this larger, cultural. Framework, of a post Internet ecology, so. I'll outline just briefly, what that involves, so, the first one I think we can all agree with that our mode at least in the developed Western world our lives are very saturated, with mobile network technologies, we. Rely increasingly on. Big data infrastructures. That are largely unfortunately. Invisible, to us and that was discussed at various points, yesterday. As. Users. Or as, I'll say in a, few minutes you know more so producers, in, this space we're also required, to manage many different, types of you know content. And navigating. Between them simultaneously, that. Hedo stereo calls a dynamic. Viewing space and I'm not sure if faisal is still here, but he was on the panel yesterday and.
He. Was doing the. The, sort of live tweeting, visualizations. From, nuit blanche and, there were people performing, there were projections. People were on their phones this, is the kind of dynamic, viewing space that stereo. Is arguing, that, we now are very much embedded in a. Post. Internet ecology, desires, networked. Objects. Otherwise known as the Internet, of Things things, that communicate, with one another that. Are automated and responsive. Environments, that adapt to us, it. Embraces plurality, and at the same time weirdly, flatness, that, digital, culture kind of gives us everything all at once and sometimes it's a bit too much to handle, it. Prizes, the referential, the, social, and the participatory, and most, importantly, in my view, it. Definitely. Creates users, who are also called upon to be cultural, producers. And. So. That's kind of the crux of where I'm going with this now just quickly as a visual, way this, is a very. Important. Early, piece of net art by oh-lee oh-lee Elina called my boyfriend came back from the war and I. Think that just the layout of this in an HTML, frames. At the time in, 1996. Gives. Us the idea that we are dealing with a kind of dynamic viewing, space but it's very structured, in, a way and largely, makes, sense to us still the, idea here is that you click on various, hyperlinks. And they open up new pieces of content and it's kind of like an ever unfolding, graphic, novel, in different pieces but. Then if we contrast, this to a more, recent piece, so, here we have attract, money which is from last year and sorry I left the date off, 2017. By, Michael. Burroughs also known as C stem, you. Can see that there is an, imprecation, of, these things it's, layered that's, of self referential, you can see the browser windows, within the composition. Parts. Of the image protrude, into one another not violently, perhaps, but in a kind of confusing. Convoluted, manner and this, is the sort, of visualized. Reality, of a person, in a post Internet ecology, is what I would argue, so. Here, are my very practical, recommendations. Which I'm also kind of calling, Reformation. To, be a bit cheeky that. I think, that. Museums. And public galleries really need to address if they want to start thinking about more dynamic, online exhibitions. Sorry. This is a bit dim you. Should probably never use a coral, color of typeface, in, a situation, where there are large. Bulbs. So. I'm. Gonna go through so each one of the top headers. Will change but these three points will remain the same and I'm just going to give you some examples, some, good some, not so good of what I think are you know pertinent. Here so. This, is not my idea this, has been argued actually, by a few different people that online exhibitions. Need to move towards, the idea of online platforms. This. Is what we already are used to engaging with when we think about Twitter or Facebook or, I. Was, having a conversation with, somebody about, ello. If anybody remembers that, as a brief. Blip in the cultural, landscape. These. Platforms. Allow, people, to not only. See and interact with things but it's it's around a database, where they can add they, can comment they can share and these are the online behaviors. That, we have incorporated, into our lives. So. I would, argue that. Institutions. Rather, than creating online exhibitions. That might just be hyperlinks. Within a custom-designed web portal, need, to create platforms. Based. On artifacts. Which are the artworks and treat. Them as data, and make spaces. That are specifically. For. Building. Upon those of those, artifacts, and engaging. A community around. It and the important thing about this too is that in my words it registers. The. Social engagement which is a fancy way of saying that you can see when people are interacting, online with, the artworks and with each other. Okay. So I won't spend too much time on this because it's my own work, but. This was the result of my MFA thesis. Which was the. Research, creation, component, was to do an online exhibition in a, new way new, in quotations. Basically. What it involved, were three different artists, and, their artworks that you could see and interact with simultaneously. At the same time that there was a virtual, message. Board and the. Thing that I did to kind of. Radicalized. This space is that, I got rid of all of the different privileges and everyone, was not only an editor but they were administrators. Of the space so when you signed on to this online portal, you had complete, control over the website as much as I did when I was putting it together and, this, I modeled, off of an idea from 2006. In a very interesting, book if anybody is so, inclined called curating, immateriality, the editor.
Joey's Ecclesia calls this method software. Curating. In, which you design the conditions, of the exhibition, but, you cannot, know the results, of what will actually happen because. It's completely dependent on how your users, slash visitors. Perform. Within that space and. Just. Go to another image here. Unfortunately. What, happened, although some people did engage with this in quite a dynamic way you, know this is why we do research sometimes, these things these propositions fail, and. Unfortunately. Most people kind of resorted, to the. Shyness, or timidness, that, they would within a physical gallery, space however, the great thing that came out of it is that, certain, people sort of branched, off and had their own conversations. But, it was all visible, and remarkably. A lot of the users logged in to, be spectators, and to watch the discourse, that was happening, around these, artworks and so, I would argue that the main function, of the exhibition, was actually, to be witnessing, the discourse, around, the artworks and not the exhibition, necessarily. Of the artworks, themselves, to a degree you, know we don't want to undermine the, artworks but it, was really more of a, dynamic, social, space, in that way. Another. Example of this that I looked to as inspiration, and which is often cited by, curators. And practitioners. Both. Of the sort of net art era and now today who are thinking of critically, about, networked. Art is run, me which was started out as an online festival of software, heart so unlike, web, art which you access through your you. Know worldwide, web protocol, these, were programs that, artists had designed that you would download onto, your computer and actually, play them to, experience, them but, the remarkable thing about run me is that it's all user, driven, so this is a community of creators. At different. Levels of professionalization. And expertise, and they, actually, run, the, the. Platform, themselves. And so it is user-generated in, that way and what. It would take for an institution, is to create, the beginnings, of this and then to invite, a community, of stakeholders which, I'll talk about in just a minute, who, are dedicated, and committed and will take this on and it actually has it has it continues today it's been let. Me see. 2003. So here we are 15, years into the future. Now. One, I won't spend too much time dogging. It but there are more recent attempts, at this peer. To space, in Europe is, the work of two curators. / art administrators. And if, we had more time I would take you into the website and show you they, create online exhibitions, that are community, driven in the way that their, community, of users can propose, exhibitions. But, they are not participatory. They are interactive. But there's no means to comment. To share to, have a kind of discourse about it or to, add, or. A. Kind of you know further the, project along, and so there's a real gap there in between that and what we're used to experiencing. Another online avenues. Okay. My second point is that online exhibitions, and this is kind of goes, as well for the, physical, space, of an institution, that would be supporting, this is that, online exhibitions, need to move into mixed realities. Because. The. Original. Political, idea of net art was that you experience it through your screen because you're circumventing. The gallery it was to disrupt the power dynamic. And the authoritative, voice of the institution. However. Increasingly. In post internet culture especially my own students, at OCAD who are now born in the year 2000. Or later possibly. Have. Grown up in a world where they are navigating, physical, and virtual space, simultaneously. Quite, a lot, and so this, is what they're used to this is how they engage with the world and mixed, reality environments, aren't natural. To a certain degree to them now, there's I can't get into the whole there is a whole history and discourse around what is a mixed reality environment.
But My argument here comes, from James Meyer who talks about the idea of a functional, site that, you need to have hybrid spaces. That. Create, and again. Visualize, the social, engagement, around what the artwork is and I think that you can only really do that through, oh. Can. Only really do that through hybrid, environments, where there, is access. To the, digital, and also. Somehow, bringing people together in a physical way as well I just. Have this real quick quote from myself up here because it's interesting to go back and look at what you said seven to eight years ago I, argued. Against, this for, a while the. That you should ever put not art in a physical, locality. But, just. Briefly although, traditional, definitions, of site specificity have, regarded, virtual space as its antithesis, both. Concepts, involve the construction of networks and relational, forms that spatialize, discourse. And otherwise. Invisible, social, forces so. In other words it, may not be sort, of politically. Kosher. For, let's, say to have someone who's making art to circumvent the gallery and put that in a physical gallery, space but, what's really important, is that drawing, the parallel between the network that they're using to disseminate, and decentralize. Also. Relates to the idea that we are a networked society, that increasingly, views this as some kind of analog or metaphor for how we relate to each other and those, things need to come together in a meaningful way is what I would argue I'll. Just really talk quickly talk about speed show and then zoom to my last point this. Is something that I've looked at for many years it's a great model, that kind of does all of these things it was started by a curator named Aaron Bartel in Germany, Elam. In 2010. And the, really basic idea is you throw a bunch of computers, or, maybe in this case iPads, into a trunk or a trailer you, find an internet cafe, or somewhere with a reliable, high-speed Internet connection and you, move the show out of the museum or the gallery into, the. Community, and you, invite people to, come interact with these artworks and also to interact with each other and. It's been one of the best things about it is that it tries to also, do this software curating, where, the, say it's never the same curator, / organizer, it's passed off to somebody else within, the community, and they, organize, and complete the next show. Okay. I'm running a little bit short on time I wanted, to at. Least acknowledge the, wrong the. Wrong biennial, if you have not seen, this at, all it is probably, in, recent. Years it's made the biggest splash in, terms of the continuation, of web art as a practice, I have, some problems, with it but. It does at least some. Events like this gift fest 3000, which took place in Vancouver, and. Was organized, by kala pattar Janssen they. Do make. Sort. Of spin-off events, in physical, spaces that, actually, put the work in this case they took all the gifts from the virtual pavilion, and projection. Mapped them on to the ceiling that's a so Bandhan warehouse building, so, there are efforts, and they had a huge turnout I'll just as. You. Can see over on the right sorry it's a bit dim but it. Was very dancey, kind of ravy but it was it was of that culture, and I think that there is a real need to try and figure out who you are speaking to with, just, because it's it's networked, it doesn't mean that you're reaching everyone, simultaneously. Okay. I'll go past that and on, to my final, point so. Online. Exhibitions, as I've already said this idea of software, curating, I really I did want to challenge what, was said yesterday that, we, should maybe, just. Dismiss. The idea that, visitors.
Slash Users, can play a part in the curatorial models, that institutions, use to create. Exhibitions. Because. These kinds of things have been going on for quite a while Michele kasparek, yet v2 and Rotterdam, has been doing this a lot with, laboratories. As galleries, and vice-versa. Susan. Fox in Australia, she created, a online, performance. Space called waterwheel, that his user defined, and she manages, it but people drive the content, so these things can happen, I, think. That it's really important though to figure out who you are speaking to and then get them to care about it and get them to commit to it how do you do this in a way that's kind of seamless, you curate, it to make it matter. So you engender, a defined community of users and, this is a question, that museums, and public galleries are continually. Asking themselves how do you create, relevance. By actually, figuring out who you're trying to speak to I'm this. Is me again mostly this was sort of an exercise in me going back to why I had written many, years ago and going do I feel the same way so, I'll blow past this but I do want to talk about a really important, project. In. My, research anyway, which, is from Lauren, McCarthy and she. Has done a lot of works. Over the years that kind of push and pull let this tension and her, project script, she, used a wiki which, again is a very accessible online. Tool that not only individual, users but institutions. Can you, know easily incorporate. Into, their, models and the, idea is that for a, series, of a whole month she, would post a script of what she was going to do the next day onto this wiki and through. Her, blog. People, could log into the wiki and change the script they could say now you're going to go to the car parts dealer, or now you're going to brush your teeth for seven minutes and she, would have to do this and act it out and one, of the cool things that happened you can see up here in the one image that I've pulled is that, it was all video, documented. Within a gallery space so there is this kind of weird almost, virtuality. Of, taking, place in a in a white cube as like a TV studio. But, it became this hybrid, kind of embodied. Performance. That was being infused, by the.
The. Directions, of anonymous. Virtual, users, but, the same users, came back day after day maybe not to edit but to look at the script and stay engaged with. The blog as a kind of mediating, device, in this mixed reality experience. So. My last slide which. Is again, a more of a provocation because. I haven't talked about virtual reality in, the role of virtual, exhibitions. Here. In Canada, John Rothman, who I've also followed, closely for, many years he's a great innovator, if you're not familiar with his work. He. Has started creating, his own custom. Environments. Within virtual reality, in order to, display. Work however. I, as. Much as I respect him I really can't, philosophically. Get on board with this I think that it's really important, to. Material. I'm sorry I'm getting mixed up here Digital digital, media. Is a material. It's material in, ways. That we enact, by embodying, the space and so, I this, is pulled from the fever's festival, which happened in 2015. And this was that one of their advertisements. For an image. Promoting. Their festival. There's. No engagement going on here and I know that it's just a snapshot pulled, from a marketing promo but I don't think this is the direction that we should be heading and we need to find ways to more seamlessly. Create. Mixed reality environments, so that we can engage with digital, content but, stay engaged, with one another, all. Right I think I'll end up there thank you very much. Okay. So now, we have our final speaker, just. Before I continue are we gonna have a break after the final speaker and then questions. Or are we just going to keep going you're gonna keep going okay. Okay. Great, so. Our. Final, speaker today is, Srinivas, Krishna. And. He's. The founder, and CEO of the pioneering, mobile, AR. Studio. Aw company. And the, mobile AR, platform geo, Graham, 2017. Sir novice Krishna, has created, both foundational. AR technologies. And some. Of the most remarkable AR, experiences. Of the past decade. Patented. Inventor, user, experience. Designer, and lifelong, innovator, his, work as the digital media artist, has been applauded by The Globe and Mail as, utterly. Breathtaking. Genius. Previously. Shrinivas's, produced. And directed feature, films, that, of premiere at Toronto's, Sundance, and Cannes and, have. Been distributed, worldwide, he. Launched his career in 1991. With. The international. Hit masala. Which. Was. Voted. By the British Film Institute among. The top 10 Asian. Diaspora films. Of the, 20th century, and is, a classic of world cinema and I think anyone, who's seen that film, absolutely, would, have to agree. The. The, near, universal, adoption of smartphones gives. Museums, and galleries the. Unprecedented. Opportunity, to engage audiences and, build loyal communities. Srinivas. Krishna provides a framework for imagining, and shaping the, visitor experience, before. During. And after the. Accident and examines. The digital, tools and methods. Including, augmented. Reality that. Will help museums, and galleries, succeed. In the digital space so. Let's welcome Srinivas. To the podium. Thanks. To. Hawaiian, signup, and the staff here for making. This happen giving me a chance to speak to you and thanks very much for this, opportunity really. Happy to be here I guess. In the interest of disclosure as, you pointed, out before I'm just gonna tell you where. I speak from I'm, a guy who went, to art school, made, some movies and digital, art projects. And you know had a pretty comfortable. Life and, for, 20 years I did that and then I'm through. His series of you know decisions. That, most everyone. Who cared about me tried. To persuade me were completely, irrational and downright stupid I, embarked. On a journey that has now led me to this bizarre. Place of running a leading, high-tech company so, here I am and, it's from this perspective today that I'm going to speak to you about mobile. AR, VR, augmented in virtual reality and I. Don't. Know yeah. So what I'm going to talk about tech, what, I'm going to talk about today is, mobile. AR BR what it is and how it works very. Quickly and, really like why matters, you know what problem are we trying to solve and the. Opportunity. That's you know at hand with this technology that everyone's kind of hearing about and like what it means I'm. Going to talk about. An exhibit. That we made at. Fort York and, the lessons, that we learn from it which we're really expensive and painful I'm, going to share those with you and and. In some of the responses, that you know we're.
Coming. Back with on the back of that like a publishing, desk, gyah grab that we're building and and an, ARV our Learning Lab that I hope might interest you so very. Loops. Did. I go to the end it's. Over. Sorry. About that. Right. Okay so let's. Just talk, about what it is you know until now when we look at you. Know mope you know the mobile web web. 2.0. What. It really in a simplest way means is that we're looking at 2d, and 3d content. On our screens. That's. It. When, we talk about the. Mobile web 3.0. Mobile arv, are what, we are saying, is that that content, is spatialized. You. Know it doesn't just live on our screens it lives or appears, to live in the world it refers, to things, the. Material, world so like those two characters they, they're. Standing, and they appear to be standing in front of you when you look through your camera device, in. The world in front of you when you look around they're not there when. You look through again they're there. And. It. Uses the camera and other sensors, on the device to enable this. How. It works is. You know I'll keep it really simple, there's, two ways to make this work in mobile AR, one, is using markers, which you've all seen before it's like a QR code or, an, image that is recognized, and and. It triggers some content, now, essential. To this is you, know an understanding. Of the location, of the user in the real world by. Which I mean we need to know where, they're standing in three-dimensional, coordinates, and we also need to know their, you. Know angle, of view are they looking down are they looking up but they're looking straight and that we call a pose so. We need to know their position in pose and, if we know that we. Can deliver or render that content, in a way that looks plausible. To them and we, can use an image to do that and recognize an image and this is useful in a gallery context, if you want to trigger you. Know a video, or any kind of digital content in, relation, to an object, that. You want it to refer to. Now. The other way is what we call markerless, augmented. Reality and, we don't use markers, what we do rather is, we create a 3d map of the world a 3d, model and we.
Track, You. Know the movement and position of the user in that 3d, model and we, track their pose using the onboarding you know the sensors we get knowledge around that what they're looking where they're looking how they're looking and we. Use that information to, then deliver content. So that appears to. Be in the world that they're actually inhabiting. You. Know that's it how, does it look like I'll just show you a, very, early prototype that we built that is that. Shared. Mixed reality space that you're referring to. This. Is enough place, called a block house in Fort York, what. We did was we created a 3d model of that interior, and we created a virtual you, know model of it and populated, it with digital content so. We walk around with iPads we discovered, these characters, and they interact with us they, know that we're there, with. You. The. Character with talking to one. Person remain, to battle brother, Jonathan, in service of His Majesty. The King and I'm watching both of them it's the devil in real take your feet go, I, said I. Said. Go, so, he knows that that person standing right in front of him and can respond to him physically. So. Again there's the 3d model and those characters, walking, in the 3d you, know virtual, world and they. Appear to us in the real world I'm a message from the captain, the. Yankees are off our shore at. Daybreak all. Of you upstairs. And. It's a shared multi-user, experience. Cheers. I say. So. The advantage of the marker list system is that it enables a couple of things that enables, the, content, to be persistent. So. It's always there you can look away and when you look back it's, still there, and that, makes it feel very real the. Other thing it enables is a shared, experience that, we're all looking at the same thing at the same time in, real time you know and that also makes it real so, this idea that it's really, there becomes, you, know really. Pressing, and an, immediate and powerful, so. I want, to ask why is this important, to you you, know you're, curators, artists. Galleries like, who cares and, it's a good question you know because really what problems can this solve and what does it solve. For. You and and, and. I have to say that when I got into it what it solved for me was the idea of storytelling, of. Audience. Engagement and, really, by, which I think we have to understand it means audience, development you. Know how do we develop audiences. For our work how, do we relate to them and how. Do we communicate them. Probably. Say well how did we use to do this once upon a time. You. Know. Put. A listening in the news and. Results. In people coming toward you, and our art that's. How we did it in there's a whole you, know value chain around this you know the whole economy of agencies. Copywriters. You. Know graphic, artists would we. Didn't get agency this would go out into the world of those the newspapers, who published this, not. Charged. Department. Stores a lot and use, some of that money to create spaces for art, you know you know Performing. Arts visual arts and like. Today. It's, a different story altogether, I mean these papers barely, survived you. Know and in this era. Of social media, and they post. Internet, as, the, presence of you knows you know I'll. With, mclee you, know Drive you know driven, audience. Outrage systems. Where. Is our audience you. Know like. What does it take to get people. Recently. A guy who promotes, movies said to you know two years ago $100,000. In in, an ad budget, he could fill theaters, today. Says $100,000 gets you nothing you know the cost of, advertising, of promoting on social media and on the Internet is just through, the roof, so. And. I'll just talk about it by the numbers I mean when we look at the, damage to this fine you know value chain this pipeline it's huge you, know in 2001. Newspapers. Were. A hundred, more than hundred million dollars in ad revenue globally. Today. They'