FlameSpec Webinar - Apr 21 Delivering new performance levels in optical hydrocarbon flame detection

FlameSpec Webinar - Apr 21 Delivering new performance levels in optical hydrocarbon flame detection

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hello everybody and welcome to this  our second flame spec webinar today   i will be talking for around 40 to 45 minutes  about our flame spec triple ir flame detector   and how it provides new levels of performance  in optical hydrocarbon flame detection   in a later webinar we will specifically discuss  how our flame detector family addresses the needs   of the energy transition market by looking  more closely at applications for hydrogen   ammonia and battery storage for now let  me introduce the agenda for this session today we will present a short overview of fire  and gas detection technologies inc and how far   we have developed since being founded we will  then summarize flame detection technologies   and the factors that affect detection and false  alarm immunity this was very much covered in   the first webinar the main presentation  will focus on our flame spec triple ir   hydrocarbon flame detector we will explain some  of the detail behind the design and explain what   makes it different we will finish with a few  typical examples of applications and a summary   so without further ado let me introduce  fire and gas detection technologies inc many of you might know that our company  was founded in 2017 by a group of   highly experienced people who left spectrex  following its acquisition in 2015 by emerson   fire and gas detection technologies was  established with the aim to offer faster optical   detection products with market leading false alarm  immunity and first class customer service last   summer we moved from our unit in brea california  into a much larger primary manufacturing   facility in anaheim here we have capacity to  produce more than 12 000 detectors per year   although i should state that this is not the  ceiling for manufacture at this facility from   anaheim we operate all sales marketing training  and technical support activities the factory is   naturally iso 9001 certified as all of  our products carry hazardous area approval   and performance approvals let's look a little bit  more closely at our timeline since being founded   you will see that up until 2019  the primary focus of our company   was to develop a world-class product line of  optical flame detectors in 2019 we saw the   finalization of some major certifications  these include factory mutual icx and atex   in 2020 the focus turned to global distribution  channels partnerships and key end user approvals   in 2021 we continue to expand our distribution  network increase market awareness and of course   add more approvals we've also started development  of an open path gas detector platform and we   present more on this at a later date and so today  today we have two flame detector product lines   matching technology with fire risk  and application considerations   the technologies cover uvir for hydrocarbon  metal and inorganic fires triple ir for hydrogen   silane and some other special applications and  of course triple ir for visible and invisible   hydrocarbon fibers the two product lines were  developed to have the same flame detection and   fire alarm integration capabilities the  main difference between the two lines   is with the video capability of our hd detectors  we will learn more about this in this presentation   right now we will pause to quickly review  what affects flame detector response   our starting point is always what is going to burn  a large luminous smoky flame like crude oil or a   large or a low energy near invisible flame like  methanol burn very differently whichever it is   we must ensure the flame detection technology  selected is able to respond to the fuel burning   detector sensitivity and distance from the  fire are very much linked factors we then   need to consider the detector field of view  in both the horizontal and vertical planes   as a side comment you might find it interesting  to learn that a field of view greater than   90 degrees in the horizontal axis does  not always equate to better performance   i'll leave you with that thought for now as  we will discuss this point further in the   presentation and another point to consider is the  environment in which the detector is installed   for example the demands of a detector in an  acoustic enclosure of a gas turbine is very   different to the challenges posed by the  depths of winter in canada or kazakhstan   and last but not least we must turn  and consider false alarm sources flare stacks are friendly fires the challenge is  that no flame detector can tell the difference   between a hazardous fire or a friendly one  care and attention with the installation   linked with mechanical blinkers and sensitivity  reduction can normally help minimize false alarms   hot objects as we will see in this presentation   can cause issues for some flame detectors the  main recourse here is to reduce sensitivity   sunlight and sunlight reflections can be an  issue for some flame detectors mechanical instant   changes may help where this is an issue when hot  work is being conducted in close proximity to a   detector it is normal to isolate the alarm outputs  the main historical issue relates to arc welding   and uv detectors although activities where  heat is produced such as grinding and cutting   may be an issue for some ir flame detectors and  finally but co2 or carbon dioxide emissions can   cause some multi-spectrum ir detectors to alarm if  they are mounted in close proximity to the source   this issue can be resolved by relocating the  detector or if this is not an option other   solutions may be available the challenges posed  by the fire risk application and installation   and presence of false alarm is a complex one so  when we take these points into consider we must   always ask is there a perfect flame detector and  as always the answer is no all flame detectors   have strengths and limitations therefore when  selecting a device it is important to use the most   appropriate technology for the application this  is of course why we have a range of products   and technologies that match the challenges of the  installation with the detection performance needed   in this webinar we will be focusing on the  flame spec triple ir hydrocarbon flame detector   so what have we developed well we  developed a detector that in a single unit   responds to explosions fast fires slow  evolving fires small fires and big fires   the detectors work indoors or outside over  an extremely wide operating temperature   range the detectors have best in class response to  a broad range of fires and outstanding false alarm   immunity all of which is approved by factory  mutual in a single unit we deliver as standard   fire and fault volt free contacts a three wire  four to twenty milliamp both current sync and   current source an isolated four wire 4 to 20  milliamp and an rs-485 port utilizing modbus rtu   we also include heated optics  adjustable sensitivity and time delays   all again as standard what is more all of our  detectors are delivered with a five years warranty   as mentioned earlier our hd units provide a live  video feed and high speed recording of events   one minute before the alarm and up to three  minutes after it i'm sure you now want to know   something of the detail of  what we've actually done so with a mature technology it's unlikely that  dramatic improvements in detective formats   would occur due to changes in any one area in  the following slides you will see that subtle   incremental changes based on years of product  knowledge have culminated with the development   of the flame spec triple ir the first area we will  focus on is the wavelength and filter selection   this was supported by live fire tests where we  captured both data and video in color and near   infrared from fires the next step sees  us focus on the opto mechanical design   how we heat the optics and tightly  control light entering the sensors finally   we will mention pcb construction the termination  chamber and flexible options where we provide for   interfacing to panels and control system but first  we need you to do a little bit of work so we have   a quick poll you will see a window will open up on  your screen and in it we will be asking a question   the question is which flame spec enhancement do  you consider adds the most value to the end user   there's no wrong answer you can select as  many as you want i i'll open the poll now you've got about 20 seconds left i think you have a very clear leader there uh   elliott it is very very clear an  interesting uh second place as well   just there you are so i will show the poll  and you just want to quickly talk about it   yeah so uh thanks everybody for uh  for voting there so we have um 27 uh   went for speed of response uh 22 percent  uh looked at sensitivity or detection range   uh 31 for the integration flexibility  uh so all the functionality in one box   uh but the majority um chose and this is 56 of you  chose false alarm immunity so uh yeah interesting   uh interesting survey as as eliot said there was  no wrong or right answer and the answers can be   obviously varied depending on your experience  whether you're a user uh or whether you're a   seller of flame detection or whether you're  an integrator of flame detection devices so   thanks very much for for that information  uh as i said false alarm immunity 56   was nearly double uh the uh the other answers  so appreciate your input there thank you excellent thank you very much for that and just so  you know i i now have to open the next poll which   will be coming up later in the presentation so  okay so moving on what we now need to focus on is   the wavelength and filter selection it is widely  known that hydrocarbon fires generate a plume of   hot carbon dioxide and the most triple ir flame  detectors use this key feature to detect flames   our fireband wavelength is centered around  4.5 microns and we use two adjacent guard band   wavelengths one at four and one at five microns  these wavelengths help improve the false alarm   immunity of the flame detector one point i should  highlight is that there is no overlaps of the   wavelengths we use this is important as it means  the information we're receiving from each sensor   is uncluttered a good analogy is to think  of the sensor filter combination as a single   pixel camera the colors that we receive from  these cameras are vibrant and sharply defined   and they are completely uncluttered this means  that the analysis of thresholds signal ratios and   correlations can be conducted more quickly  this coupled with enhanced signal flicker   frequency analysis improves improves positive fire  detection and false alarm immunity naturally the   algorithms we employ and develop are key to the  detector performance we will now look at that now   our new development has allowed us to capture data  and video from a huge range of fire and non-fire   events the fire events would cover visible and  invisible hydrocarbon fires those that were clean   burning and those that were dirty or smoky over a  variety of distances from very short to very long   by which we mean up to about 100 meters or nearly  400 feet non-fire events were tested at very short   distances as typically these were less of an issue  the further removed from the detector you were   typically we examined arc welding electrical  arcs modulated and unmodulated objects   as well as direct and indirect sunlight the  information we captured directly related to the   factors we used to differentiate fire from false  alarms inside each flame spec triple ir there   are over 50 factors that are monitored as part of  the detection and full salon rejection algorithms   algorithm revisions are validated against the  vast library of data for fire and non-fire events   to ensure changes only have a positive  performance impact in the next two slides   we will present a brief glimpse of the  three signals the flame spec triple ir uses in the first video you will see the recorded  feed from our internal development tool on the   left hand side of the video you will see a graph  displaying the output from each of the three   filtered ir sensors on the right hand side  we're showing the live video feed from the   flame spec triple our hd detector  the first video shows the sensors   will not respond where air in  front of the detector is modulated and as you see there are almost no signals at all we then introduce a simple heat source close to  the detector and modulate it this simple example   might represent a detector looking at a hot  vessel heat exchanger or a pump on a facility   if a group of technicians were to walk between the  hot object and the detector a chopping motion of   hot cold hot cold would be seen watch as a three  signals are generated one per filtered ir sensor   notice how close the correlation or tracking  is between the three sensors you look here in the next video we introduce a small flame in  the presence of the unmodulated heat source the   blue line in the graph is for is the output  from our 4.5 micron sensor this will show   a strong response to the flame whereas the  other wavelengths have negligible response the second video on this slide demonstrates a  much harder challenge for the detector as we are   actively trying to confuse it by mixing a  modulated heat and flame source at the same time   as with the modulated heat source video on  the previous slide the detector could be   looking at a hot vessel heat exchanger  or pump when the chopping motion of hot   cold hot cold would be seen this time watches the  three signals are generated due to the modulation   and then what happens when the flame is  introduced you will see that the correlation   of the guard band wavelengths remains closely  matched and that the response at 4.5 microns   is very strong the detector correctly  identifies that a flame is present one other point just to note was that the  traces were all continuous so i promise   you there's no smoke or mirrors  or video editing going on there   next we need to look at our  enhanced opto mechanical design   the flame spec fascia gives it a very distinctive  look and feel unlike some competing products we   have no need to use sun shades to stop  water dripping into the detector optics   this is because we have a brow that forms part of  the stainless steel casting the three ir sensors   sit behind a heated sapphire window the  flame spec design uses a heating element   in direct contact with the window as this is a  more efficient way of heating the optical surface   than using an array of resistors mounted  more remotely as a result we have lower power   consumption than many competing devices finally  each sensor sits in a precision machined pocket   where incident light is restricted to 45  degrees either side of the central axis   thereby giving a 90 degree horizontal field  of view it is important to stress that each   sensor rather than the detector as a whole has  exactly the same field of view let us review this   in more detail looking at the flame spec design we  can see each of the three sensors is tucked behind   a bandpass filter selected to the wavelength of  interest either 4 4.5 or 5 microns respectively  

as mentioned previously this precision machined  pocket restricts light to 45 degrees either side   of the midpoint thereby giving each sensor  a horizontal field of view of 90 degrees   if we consider an alternative semi-controlled  design the detector may claim to have a field   of view of 90 degrees at is clear that light  entering the extreme left of the sensor   onto the left is restricted to 45 degrees but  light to the right hand side of the center point   is unrestricted i'm sure some of you are asking  why is this important well the challenge faced   by this design is called blue shift in  basic terms the transmission properties   of a bandpass filter changes depending on the  angle of incoming radiation when infrared energy   enters from angles greater than 45 degrees  the sensors see different wavelengths this   unwanted additional data can distort the ratio  and correlation of the signals received which may   impact the ability of the algorithms to correctly  differentiate fire from false alarm meaning   that the device performance may be compromised  moving on let's have a quick look at our design   pictorially this slide represents the journey  we've been through with our flame spectra apply   our development we started with a blank piece  of paper and a mature technology we knew that   dramatic improvements in detective performance  would be unlikely due to changes in any one   area we therefore started to capture data and  video of fire and non-fire events and developed   algorithms from scratch using this data as input  we've already seen how our opto mechanical design   tightly controls light entering the sensors  and why this is important the integral visor   simply stops water from dripping into the optics  which are heated to prevent ice or condensation   the pcbs are tropicalized and the termination  compartment is integral to the detector   but segregated which usually makes for a  less problematic installation we also have   possibly the most complete range of outputs  that can be purchased in a single part number   a 3y 4 to 20 current sync and current source  as well as the isolated 4 to 20 milliamp   we have 5 volt 3 contacts and  an rs-485 port using modbus rtu   but we're not finished there we  also offer detection to explosions   our ultra fast detection mode is available in  all flame spec detectors and uses an independent   and parallel detection path to our  standard flame detection algorithms   ultra fast detection does not affect the speed  sensitivity or any other aspect of the standard   detection mode similarly the sensitivity  and alarm delay settings do not have   any impact on ultra fast detection the ultra  fast response for our triple ir detectors   is 40 milliseconds to fireballs and explosions  at short distances here's an example keep an eye   on the red lamp which is positioned here just to  the right of the detector and above the fgd logo that was in real time we'll now  show it slow down completely okay now let's explain a bit more  about the published data that we have in the next few slides we will show in more detail  the performance levels we've achieved with our   flame spec triple our detectors to my knowledge  fgd uniquely publishes more fm data in our product   data sheets than any other manufacturer the  details published include detection distance   and response times to different fuels we also  include the results of immunity to false alarm   in both modulated and unmodulated conditions  let's look at some performance data   let me explain a little about this slide the  response times shown are the average response   per rfm test report the fire under test is the  same it is the standard one square foot or 0.1   meter squared n heptane fire at each distance  this means as we move further from the detector   the radian energy it receives reduces this  essentially matches the inverse square law   so if we double the distance from the detector  it can only see a quarter of the energy that it   saw at the shorter distance in order to maintain  detection we manually increase device sensitivity   one interesting point to highlight is at  the limits of detection looking at the   extreme sensitivity to the right hand side  of the slide you can see this is around 80   meters for this fire type and size you'll also  see that the detector takes longer to decide   if a fire is present at 80 compared to 70 meters  this is because the detector runs additional   validation checks when the received fire signal  is low let's now look at some other of our fm data   here we present performance data extracts of our  triple ir and triple r hd product data sheets   the information shown relates to different  fires including liquids gases and solids   the detection distance and average response time  is given for the stated fire size and sensitivity   i'll give you a few moments just to scan the data whilst you're doing so i'd like to point  out a couple of things first of all the   response time for the two detector types  are broadly similar but not identical this   is simply due to the experimental setup as  the fires were not conducted simultaneously   as a side comment we do have some simultaneous  fire test examples later in this presentation   where you'll see a much correlation in the speed  of response because the detectors will see the   same fire secondly it's worth pointing out that  the detection distance is not fixed for example   our triple ir can see beyond 80 meters if  you look at the response data for the 2x2   gasoline fire but the fire must be bigger to do so  now let's look at the immunity to false alarm data   which you all identified as the single  most important factor for end users   it is important to highlight the false alarm tests   were conducted with our detectors placed on their  maximum sensitivity which is the extreme setting   that means an 80 meter response to a one square  foot end heptane pan fire here we compare   our immunity to false alarm data with that of a  market leader on the next slides we will see some   more response data but i think on this slide the  one thing i would particularly like to highlight   is the difference in response on the most  extreme settings for arc welding we're typically   around the four meter mark for a false alarm  whereas a competing product is nearer to 12.   moving on the information presented on this slides  relates to the factory setting of both units   most manufacturers default is medium sensitivity   which typically means a 30 meters or about  100 feet to the standard n-heptane test fire   whilst the list of fuels is shown is not  exhaustive the data presented is fm approved   generally speaking i think the data shows the  flame spec to have a more uniform response   across different hydrocarbons whilst at the same  time giving improved sensitivity and speed of   response the following video gives a head-to-head  comparison of market leading devices the intention   of the video is not to knock the competitors high  quality products they respond well and in a timely   manner we're simply wishing to demonstrate  the additional speed gains we have achieved   naturally enough all the devices are configured  the same and have the same zero time delay settings a couple of slide backs i mentioned that we would  see some simultaneous fires and this is an example   here you see there's a much closer correlation  between the speed of response of our detectors and now i have another quick poll for  you so there's three questions to answer   just based on some of the information that we've  seen you have approximately a minute to respond we're just waiting for a couple of  respondents to um complete uh the poll   i'm happy to say that you've been paying  good attention so thank you very much for   for that so the ultra fast response is 40  milliseconds that was very well defined   the video outputs are pal ntsc and onvif profile  s that again was answered well and the factory   default setting is uh is medium so um well done  thank you very much for uh for uh answering   that uh those questions for us now in the video  we just saw you saw a glimpse of our hd detector   and now i would like to just share with you some  of the capabilities that we have with that device so as previously mentioned our triple r  flame detector is also available with an   integral cctv camera the live camera feed delivers  high definition quality video output using   on fifth profile s format for retrofit  applications we also have pow and ntsc   the video element of our detector helps elevate  on-site safety by providing clear video stream of   the area being protected in the unlikely event  of an incident informed decisions can be taken   more quickly and first responders can be appraised  of the situation and directed more appropriately   as an additional feature fire events are  recorded at high speed both before and after   an incident as standard the video recording  before detection is one minute and after three   and after detection an additional three minutes  can be added this video contains time and   date stamped information which can be used as part  of a post incident investigation the next video   clip has been cut down from the full recording  at the top of the screen you will see the   time and date stamped information this can  naturally be synchronized to the local clock there's the time of day stamped information  and you'll see the detector responded the   event video feed can be extracted using a web  browser the onvif device manager or our own   ftd communicator by way of a quick  introduction here is our fgd communicator the software this software is is  required if changes are needed to the   configuration of the detector  when shipped from the factory   the main features of the software are the ability  to communicate using modbus over an rs485 port   parameters such as sensitivity the ultra  fast response the delay time latching of   relays or the the standard 4 to 20 milliamp signal  the selection of the heater and also whether you   want video on or off or whether you want to  select pal or ntc ntsc video are all available   through a password protected environment the  software can also communicate with the triple ir   hd via an internet connection that allows live  streaming of the video and the ability to retrieve   event recordings in the next few slides we will  cover detector testing approvals and accessories testing can be conducted externally using  one of our atex approved flame simulator kits   or via a manual built-in test if  testing is conducted using the test   torch the detector outputs are activated  and a complete system check is performed   the manual built-in test has two options  one that simply tests the injector internals   and the cleanliness of the optics and  the other that performs a full loop test   in much the same way as the test torch the  automatic built-in test initiates every 15   minutes and is used to verify electronic circuitry  sensors and window cleanliness it's important to   note that if a fire is detected and the unit is in  dirt fault the fire will override the fault signal this slide denotes the approvals we already  have in place and i will mention some of the   additional ones we're working towards you will  see that the core hazardous area approvals of atex   iecx fm eac and peso are already in place we  also have performance approvals to fm 3260   and en 54 part 10. what is more our flame spec  triple r detectors have been approved by dnvgl   to the very rigorous med the marine equipment  directive you will no doubt have noticed that   our sill capability is by fmeda at the present  time we are working to obtain full certification   before the end of the year and finally we have  started work to obtain vds and ukca approval moving on just a few slides to talk about our  accessories the tilt mount brackets offers   true versatility for installation and it has  adjustment in both horizontal and vertical axis   what is more the fixing centers of the base plate  are identical to some of the market leading brands   meaning retrofits are very straightforward  the pole kits can be mounted with a two or   three inch pole as standard and others are  available on request if customers insist   we can also supply sunshade as well and the  latest addition to our range is an airshield   this item can be supplied either  for the standard or hd detectors   and the air shield uses compressed air to flow  an air curtain across the detector window thereby   preventing accumulation of dirt on the detector or  the camera window now looking at some applications   we're able to satisfy a wide range from the most  obvious like offshore marine lng tank farms and   refineries things also like large vehicle  protection loading racks and compressors to   the less obvious aircraft hangers waste transfer  stations biomass facilities recycling centers   waste to energy plants battery storage  spray paint booths and others and our hd   units are ideal when remote monitoring of  site or process is needed applications like   normally unattended facilities gas plant remote  tank farms or pipeline booster stations spring   to mind for the use of the video we're now  coming towards the end of our presentation   i'd therefore like to summarize our development  in this r webinar entitled delivering new   performance levels in optical hydrocarbon  flame detection by way of a summary i'd   like to mention what we discussed we had a short  overview of fire and gas detection technologies   and how we developed since being founded we then  summarize flame detection technologies and what   affects detection and false alarm immunity the  main focus of this presentation has of course   been our flame spec triple ir hydrocarbon flame  detectors we discuss how we started from a blank   piece of paper and a mature technology we knew  that dramatic improvements in detector performance   would be unlikely due to changes in any one area  we therefore started capturing data and video of   fire and non-fire events and developed algorithms  from scratch using this data as input we saw how   our optomechanical design tightly controls light  entering the sensors and why this is important   the integral visor simply stops water dripping  into the optics which are heated to prevent icing   or condensation the pcbs are tropicalized and  the termination compartment is integral to the   detector but segregated which as mentioned before  usually makes for a less problematic installation   we also saw that our flame spectroplar  detector has a more uniform response   to different hydrocarbons whilst at the same time  giving improved sensitivity and speed of response   all of which is independently approved by factory  mutual we also have possibly the most complete   range of outputs that can be purchased in a single  part number from any flame detector manufacturer   as previously mentioned three wire four to twenty  milliamp sink source isolated four to twenty five   volt free contacts an rs485 port utilizing  modbus rtu i firmly believe that our flame spec   supplier has truly raised the bar regarding flame  detection performance and what customers should   expect from manufacturers finally i have one more  head-to-head comparison of market leading devices   this time to a gaseous fire the attention  again of this video is not to knock the   detectors of the competitors they are high  quality and they retire in a they respond   in a timely manner we're simply wanting  to demonstrate the additional speed gains   that we have achieved naturally enough all  the detectors are configured in the same way and as before i just like to mention how closely  the our detectors actually match one another and so without further ado we've reached  the end of the presentation and i'd like   to thank you very much for attending and ian  are there any questions that we need to answer   yeah thanks uh elliot yes yeah there's there's  a few actually we have some on the chat   uh which i'll uh i'll go to first um i've  sent uh some people the link to the youtube   uh video from the first presentation um and  uh the first question on the chat which i   did reply to everybody but uh does an air  shield lower the view angle of the detector   and if so by how much um okay i'll i'll let  you answer that uh verbally uh it's a very good   question actually we've designed the air shield  so it has no impact in either the horizontal or   vertical field of view of the detector so the  performance of the device is completely unaffected   from what is published on the data sheets okay  thanks and uh rajan prakash asked uh when to use   uvir and triple our detectors can you elaborate  i think that's probably the the topic of another   uh another webinar actually there's not a very  simple question to answer but have you got any   basic advice so pretty much if in general a  hydrocarbon flame detector can actually respond   to the fire my preference is to use it providing  it suitable for the application uh if it was an   extremely hot application with a lot of vibrating  uh surfaces around it may be that one would more   tend to move towards a uv-based detector and  not even necessarily a uv-ir than a triple r   but but it really does depend exactly on the  application um i think the one thing that's   important to highlight is generally speaking the  uv-ir can detect a broader range of fires but but   we are now starting to move away from hydrocarbon  fires which is the subject for today certainly in   our next presentation which will be about energy  transition we will highlight some real advantages   where the uv ir detector can actually be an  advantage so i think that um the comment is   wait wait till next time and we'll definitely  fill you in on more details then okay and uh   another question in the chat from uh jean-marie  jean-marie you had a couple of questions i'm   not quite sure i don't understand optical checking  cover only one ir detector i'm not quite sure okay   i think i understand what jean-marie is saying  so uh there's at least one manufacturer on the   market that actually would do a through  lens optical check on each of their three   individual sensors whereas most of the  manufacturers and actually a lot of the   end users are very happy that they understand  the optical contamination does broadly speaking   land on a detector in in very much the same way  so if one of the senses is becoming contaminated   then you know that the other ones are which is  why we typically just employ um a single one   there's another point to it and that is the main  manufacturer that uses three also is using part of   the information from each of those three sensors  as part of the main fire detection algorithm   whereas we principally are using the 4.5  microns so for fire detection capability   the sensor that we cover with the optical check  is the most important one okay thank you thanks   and then uh last one from jean-marie's can  we use the triple ar h2 for hydrocarbons you can for some so it is able to detect methanol  but it is nowhere near as strong in performance as   uh the standard triple r detector so we would  have to look at each of the individual fuels   that's going to burn because the sensitivity to a  standard hydrocarbon fire is nowhere near the same   so again it would come back to the application  understanding the fuels that are going to burn   and then make sure we are matching the right  technology uh to to the through the application   itself okay and i think uh just to respond to  your your question john mary we'll provide you   with a lot more information for hydrogen uh after  the uh after the webinar okay i'll take a note of   the questions um uh rajan again uh fine due  to hydrocarbon gases or gasoline in turbine   compartments can we use ir3 sensors to capture  fire i mean and eliminate present heat detectors   so the the the answer is it is possible um but  what we actually have to do is use a much lower   sensitivity detector because well the detection  distances are nowhere near the same anyway so we   would use a modified version uh sensitivity wise  for the inside of an acoustic enclosure typically   we're probably going to be down in a detection  distance on axis of about seven and a half meters   which for a turbine enclosure is going to be  more than enough okay thank you thanks and uh   a question from uh from singapore uh from skippy  do you think field of view restrictors may be   required or are the algorithms significantly  improved if one cannot avoid certain known   sources understanding placement is the key  factor so it's a good question there about   interferences and how our algorithms are managing  those i i think it would simply depend on what   we're talking about as the false alarm source  if the detector has an an absolute direct view   of a flare and depending on the size of the flare  it's going to be able to see it so there i would   definitely be seeking some sort of mechanical  change to the installation whether it be the use   of a blinker or whether it be to actually relocate  the detector one would actually have to look at   the individual example itself hopefully the  person who designed the fire and gas system   would actually worked out where the flare was and  tried to position the detector accordingly in the   first place but that's not always the case  yeah do you see any uh any improvements uh   in the future which can manage those uh there may  well be some that we will talk about a bit later   in the year but that's definitely the subject for  another flamespec webinar okay thanks thanks eddie   um and a question here from uh vladimir tomich are  there any software that is certified in 2d or 3d   with which we could work on projects and predict  how many detectors we need for uh for some space   i think it's a good question for um for the next  webinar right okay so that that sounds like um   vladimir is is wanting mapping software so the bit  that i'm not clear about is the the comment about   certified um so there are definitely software  tools that are available on the market where you   are able to model our field of view um in in 2d  or 3d for for any given space or or application   they are validated by the manufacturers of the  software i don't know how they would be certified   but but um ian i mean that's a very interesting  plug so that as part of our last webinar we did   send out a survey um and we will do the same again  after this particular presentation the survey is   totally anonymous but we do like to get feedback  and one of the things that people wanted to to get   a feeling for was fire and gas mapping so we have  an independent company that's going to come along   and talk about fire and gas mapping at the next  webinar which is on the 24th of june okay thanks   and uh uh patrick vieira uh one of my favorite  footballers uh is what you recommend for flame   mapping and i think uh patrick uh stay online and  uh attend the next uh webinar that we'll be doing   in june um so i am thanks for uh patiently waiting  for your question so iron's question is uh on the   field of view on the data sheet you mentioned the  field of view vertical 75 90 90 degrees horizontal   how is this possible when the front is machined to  45 degrees uh does this mean you have a field of   view of 90 degrees all round okay i'm sorry that  i wasn't more clear in their presentation so the   45 degrees is either side of the central point so  it's 45 degrees to the left and 45 degrees to the   right so therefore the horizontal field of view  is 90 degrees and actually in the vertical plane   it's actually 45 degrees below the central point  and it's 30 degrees above which is restricted   by the the little reflector that we use  for the for the through lens optical check   ah right okay as you can see actually it's a very  uh so there you can see that on the screen yeah uh   which very interesting thanks uh i and that that  was a good question thank you i because it's it's   not one that i had before either um a question  from uh gary uh what detective would you suggest   for conveyors in an energy from waste plant where  the type of waste is unknown general house waste   for example it's going to be an organic material  so it will be a triple r flame detector without   question however it needs to be correctly located  probably with an air shield and we would need to   consider the speed of response that was needed  and how it's going to interface with the control   system okay so if you have organic waste yeah  it's a trip standard triple r hydrocarbon   yeah okay and what about general house waste  but that's exactly the thing exactly the same   okay i think so uh so triple i on that one gary  thanks for the question and uh marek some good   questions here by the way everybody thank you  um from what i've heard fog might be problematic   because it can act as a bandpass filter with  different response to different mid ir wavelengths   did you experience false alarms in foggy  atmosphere with constant ir sources present i   think that that is probably something that is more  focused towards open path gas detection than flame   detection so the fog itself should not have any  material impact on the ability of the detector   to respond typically for applications we would be  looking at path lengths or i shouldn't say path   links detection distances of about 30 meters and  and you won't typically be having fog having any   real impact on a fire that's burning at 30 meters  even a longer distance it would have almost no   material difference at all but i think that's  the i think that's mainly focused the open path   and we will talk about that later in the year as  well yeah yeah so energy radiation from the fire   is is either not affected or or less affected by  uh by fog in the the wavelengths we're looking at   right okay yeah it will burn the fog off as well  yeah that's true yeah and uh question from jose   what does fgd use as active material in their  sensors for detection well that sounds like uh   i think i think i would have to ask others i i  don't know the answer to that off the top of my   head so we'll take that one away and give feedback  all right i i think uh but one of the the points i   think you raised in the uh in the topic was the  centers are proprietary they they are sorry i i   didn't specifically mention that they're certainly  built to a dedicated part number that only we   purchase and they are all tested fully over  the entire temperature range that we cycle over   okay so there's a lot of work that goes into  the ir sensors okay and uh and we have a final   one here i think i'll just check the chat before i  before i do that but uh is from the administrator   uh is the ir3 suitable for smoldering flame on a  coal conveyor that's a good question the answer is   no um and actually that that comes from the  the previous um presentation as well so no   we have to see a flame there has to be a fire  no matter how small it is we do need to see the   flicker it is very important that we see the  temporal movement of the flame as that is an   integral part of the detection mechanism which  is why in this presentation you may recall that   we're showing the hot object and then we were  modulating it so if it was just heat you're not   going to see any of that flicker movement and  we won't detect it so it's a very good question   we cannot detect smoldering fires and i think  that's the reason why many systems incorporate   multiple uh methods of detection whether you've  got heat detection smoke detection flame detection   right it could well be and and there are ember  detectors for example that may be suitable for   that application as well all right thanks and  kind of a little bit related how does this   detector suppress false alarm from hot exhaust  co2 from engines is it tested and fully immune   so it is not a hundred percent immune however  it was tested and and actually i asked when we   send out the data you'll see as part of  our fm data we actually did test it to   hot co2 emissions uh and that is fm recorded at  two meters now we have done some work for some   very specialist applications whereby we look at  the fuels that are actually going to be burning   and we are able to do some manipulation on  the wavelengths that are actually utilized   towards the end of the year i would also expect  that we will have some alternative strategies um   to talk to to people about so that the way to do  it in general is either to move the detector ever   so slightly away from the hot co2 source or to  utilize some of the the uh changes that we're able   to employ but but that is very very application  specific when we're going to be manipulating the   wavelengths of the detector but we will have  new strategies towards the end of the year   okay um this next question i'll i'll sort of add a  bit uh on before i ask you to answer the question   earlier but is the product the product comparisons  that we have uh i think there's speculation that   it's spectrex or detronics i don't think  we mentioned necessarily anybody specific   but nothing versus general monitors msa we do in  general have comparisons between our competitors   but i think our focus is not on the competitors  i think you highlighted that the the detronics   and the spectrex units do respond very well uh  we were focusing on the improvements that we've   made and the the performance of the fgd flame  spec line as opposed to being negative on any   any competitors but uh uh flashong uh if i  think you could probably take that offline   with flashon uh by me i'll i'll i'll i'll do that  um it's very very simple you know we we can't put   all the information up it's a very limited time  slot we're trying to share and all we're trying   to do is actually talk specifically uh towards  the the market leaders and um general monitors   is obviously a very very good brand but it's  not necessarily one of the top three products   okay thanks thanks um and uh we have another one  here does flame detector sensitivity impact or   is it impacted by black body ir emissions  either background uh and so background so   um it certainly wouldn't have any impact  on on sunlight um but but certainly black   body radiation depending on how intense the heat  source was you wouldn't necessarily be selecting   to use an extreme sensitivity we would probably  reduce uh that but it depends on the application   specifically it depends on the how however the  the design has actually been uh constructed   and again we can look at all of that sort of  information so it's very application specific okay   all right thank you um and uh yes so uh a couple  of other comments there thanks uh john um i think   in fact we've actually addressed all of the all  of the questions that uh have come up there um so   i think we'll we'll call that uh time on the  on the presentation itself and would you like   to add any closing remarks uh elliot i just  uh would like to obviously thank everyone   uh for for attending um and simply just to mention  that our next webinar will be an introduction to   fire and gas mapping it's going to be presented by  tim jones tim is a principal consultant with rps   um he's been involved with fire and gas mapping  for over 10 years and he's been a process safety   consultant for 17 years and he's also been on  the committee for the recently published british   standard on fire gas mapping so i think he's a  real good expert to have to come along and talk   about the subject and we look forward to sending  out the invites to that and welcoming everyone   to that presentation as well the next flame spec  webinar that we do so in other words specifically   about our products we'll be looking at the energy  transition market so we will very much be focusing   on some of the subtleties in some of the other  products that we have and how they're really quite   focused towards things like uh energy transition  of um battery storage whether it be waste   recycling facilities wind turbines etc so thank  you very much everyone there will be uh the survey   sent out and it is completely anonymous just so  everyone knows so please be honest the feedback   will make these webinars better and we hope that  uh you found them valuable all right thank you   uh so uh yeah finally uh thank you very much  everybody for uh for attending the webinar   for for signing up and uh and spending the  uh i know everybody is very busy despite uh   the lockdown uh so thank you for your uh your time  your appreciation your input with the answers and   the questions and uh we will as we did before make  a recording of this webinar available to you uh   we'll send some further information uh in the next  uh next few days um i wish you a safe uh rest of   the day safe thursday and yeah we look forward to  seeing you next time thank you everybody thank you

2021-05-02 11:25

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