Class 5, Part 1: Innovation Systems at Institutional Level & Organization of Federal Science Sup...
The following content is provided under, a Creative Commons, license. Your, support will help MIT, OpenCourseWare continue. To offer high, quality educational, resources, for, free, to, make a donation or, to view additional materials, from hundreds, of MIT courses visit, MIT. Opencourseware at. Ocw.mit.edu. So. Today. We're. Gonna get into innovation. At the institutional. Level. So. That's, our fundamental, topic. Because. We've been out for two weeks let me do a recap, so. That we're all current, with underlying, framework, class. One we talked about as you remember growth theory and we read Robert Solow and, solo taught us that technological, and related innovation, is the, dominant. Causative, factor in economic, growth. Old. Classical, economics, posited, that it was capital, supplier labor supply, those, were main important, but the monster in the room solo, found to. The tune of 60%, or more is. Technological. And related innovation. We. Also read Paul Romer, and Paul. Romer says. Wait. A minute, it's. Not just having an R&D system you've got to staff that R&D, system it's the talent base that's. A keyed rat driver that's another critical factor. So, his. Phrase is quote, human capital, engaged, in research, so. If you train great physicists, and they're driving cabs they're not engaged in research right, that's in that no, net game but. If they're engaged in that system that's, what's critical and. His. Prospector, theory says. The. Size of, a well qualified talent, base makes a huge difference, that's. A key driver. Talent. On task and a lot of talent on task is better than a less talent on task, so. Those are two fundamental. Innovation, factors, that, we arrived at in the first class, class. Number two we began thinking about innovation systems. So. We got two factors, out of the first class then we began to think about systems. Nelson, tells us that there are national systems, of innovation that you can analyze. Innovation. At the system's level and look at the. Actors, in that system and the strength of the actors and therefore the strength of the whole system. So that, gives us a third innovation. Factor. That. Which, is really in it we'll call it innovation organization. All. Right and then. We read some other pieces in there I'll highlight a couple. Don. Cash and Robert rycoff said you've. Got to network the actors right. It's, the network the strength of the network of the actors that's now, particularly, in a 21st century context. Particularly critical. And. We. Also read Charles Schultz, a, noted, economist, from University of Minnesota who is a senior governmental, official. In. The Lyndon Johnson era and then Jimmy Carter era and, he.
Raises. The issue of, what's. The public role what's the private role as, we look at innovation, systems, what. Should the public function, be versus, what the private sector should should, be right, an absolutely fundamental set, of, issues. So. Then, we did classes, three and four we essentially focused, on the innovation challenge ahead in production, and in. Class three we looked at the kind of history of US. Manufacturing, problems. We. Read can't use and, he explains. The. Fascinating. Competition, when Japan launches, a brilliant, new innovation. System. And production, around quality. That's. Where the Rust Belt begins. That's where us to Texas statistics. About growing inequality, begin, right, that's, where this, problem that we're now worse off it at that's. Where it commences, and, then we looked at Korea and Japan and how they built. Manufacturing. Lead innovation, systems and. Then. In class four. We. Looked at the current, US manufacturing, problem so I wanted to put a set, of real issues, really. Timely, critical, issues kind. Of on the table if you all that at the very beginning of the class right, so, that we're not you. Know this is not a class about abstraction, these are real issues that are, extremely timely in the way which society, operates and functions. And the. U.s.. Built a. Comparative. Advantage around. Its R&D, system, it, did not organize around. Manufacturing, lead. Innovation like, Japan, Germany. Korea Taiwan, China, and so on, we, missed that organizational. Step and. We. Are. Continuing, to pay a price for that so. We talked some last week about two weeks ago about David Otter and some of his you, know absolutely fascinating. Work on. The. Decline, of US manufacturing in, the affect on the labor force he. Has a new piece out that talks about the effect of. The. Effect on innovation. Of. The. Continent, intense competition, with Japan's I booth China and essentially what he finds is that, firms, that go up against. Head-on-head competition. All over a particular product line with. China have, to slash, their, innovation. Capability, their R&D capability. In. Order to stay in the game but that kills them long-term so. That this. Competition, with Japan, is not only having an effect on the labor market but, it's. Also having a big effect on the innovation capability, of companies and. Then, we talked about whether advanced, manufacturing. Could. Bring a new paradigm, to the table where. US. Developing, countries can kind of get back in the game so in effect they would take innovation. Leadership innovate. In a production system process, and technologies, and be, able to compete better right. That's the essential question, and as. I mentioned, last week, MIT. For example there, are 14 manufacturing, Institute's they've been stood up in the last few years MIT. Is, participating, in nine of the 14, leading. One particularly. Active about three or four but. Also participant, in the others so this is something that's now ongoing on, this campus, and a, pretty sizable, way. So. That's, the background on manufacturing, now. We go, back. To our whole project on innovation, organization, that's today's, class and, we're. Looking at that problem of how do you innovate. At. The institutional. Level and. In. Particular we're looking at where. Did the US innovation, system come from right. How, did it get created, how did it get put together and, that's. The that's the story that we'll weave. Today. As. A. Backdrop, to that we'll. Start with a framework. That. A scholar, named David Hart put together, David teaches at George Mason University teaches. Innovation, policy, issues there. And. He. You. Know wrote this he got his PhD from MIT and, STS.
He. Was had service in the Austin Science and Technology Policy so he has practical, as well as I write I can hit the experience. Authored. A big book on energy, innovation. Policy. David. Did. This book back in 1998. And. He essentially argued, that what's the ideology. Of. Science, and technology policy what's, if. You, put it into a political, economy kind of context, what. Is the thinking, process how do you think about this and he. Identified, kind of five political. Strains, in. The. U.s., that. Frankly. You, know I worked in the Senate for over 15 years I saw. Them all they were real they were all still, there they, were all ways. Of thinking about science and tech policy or indeed policy, that. I saw all the time so these are very much alive and well and David. Tried to put a frame around them, and they will help guide us on the. Kind of politics, of science. Support, and technology. Support in those countries so what. Are these five visions, I'm gonna summarize them briefly and which of our discussion leaders has David Hart Chloe. Okay so. The first was. Conservatism. Now. This perspective. Saw. No, need, for. The state. For the federal government to, do anything other than providing, for defense, including. Military technological. Innovation. Get. The state, out. Of everything else, right. They've. Got to do defense, but. Leave. The rest of the private sector it's. A very non interventionist. Philosophy. The. Budget, that. President Trump just sent to Capitol Hill the it for FY 18, largely. Written by the Heritage Foundation. Argues. Exactly. This, theoretical, line, it. Takes it eliminates. Our PE it, takes two billion dollars out of the Applied Research agencies. And takes almost a billion dollars out of the basic research agencies, it DoD. It's a gigantic, cutback. The. Theory is let. The private sector do it they'll, do this energy stuff right. And. That's. So, this this, is right on us right this theoretical, framework for approaching R&D. Support is right there, one. Of its leading proponents. And we'll run into him, when we talk about offered Loomis one. Of its leading proponents. In this period that David is writing about in the 20s and 30s when these ideologies really. Got put together was. Frank Jewett. Jewett. Was head of Bell Labs and. He was president of the National Academies. Had. Both slots and. You. Know he's head of Bell Labs he's, got you, know one of the great basic research as well as applied research organizations. In the history of the world. There's. A phone monopoly, the last thing he wants is the federal government messing around in his turf. Naturally. He's a proponent, of keeping, the feds out except. In defense in military which they've got to do so. Will will run into to fight. You it in a few minutes but. This. Is a non-interventionist. Defense. Only piece now. On. The other side of that argument is what, David, calls associational. ISM we. Would call this. Public-private. Partnership, right, that's the lingo that's. More or less used, at the time but, the meaning is roughly the same, David. Points out that the first big exponent, of this was Herbert Hoover, who. Along, with Jimmy Carter was one, of the only two engineers, to ever. You. Know be president in on it states that. Doesn't mean there can't be more just, as a lesson to you all. Hoover. Was, a. Amazing. Engineer he was a great organizer, of the, war one war relief, effort, to. Save a staggering, number of lives after World War one he. Was a highly innovative, Secretary. Of Commerce and made. That and at the time actually one of the most important, cabinet agencies. His. Vision, was that. Unlimited. Economic. Competition. Curtails. Firms. Ability, to be innovative. Right. If, you're pranic about your competitors, you're. Not going to have the energy time, or resources, to spend on, longer-term. Higher risk, R&D. So. There. Ought to be a gathering between, public, and private sectors that, would collaboratively. Collaboratively. Undertake. This. So. This. Association, ilysm really or you know occurs, in the 1920s.
He Is a great leader of NIST right. The. You. Know the. Standards, organization. That would be a classic. Public-private. Collaboration where, private industry under government auspicious would come together and negotiate and, work on standards, for products to, enable. Their. Much more efficient production right, so that would be a classic Hoover, kind. Of effort. Franklin. Roosevelt. Adopts. This. Association, list attitude, when he becomes president there's, a lot of public-private. Connectivity. During the Roosevelt regime. So. That. Gives us two models, now this next model is kind of. It's. Not it's kind of disappeared, but. It was a big movement in the. 1930s. The basic theory, was. That. Cartels. Monopolies. Collusion, amongst firm's. Discouraged. Innovation. You. Build up market, control the, last thing you want is a disruptive, product, right. And. We can see this of course right, in a sector like energy. Even. Now. So. The concept, was. Reestablish. Markets, by. Legislation, or through example, by any trust laws or regulation, and you would, encourage innovation, to break out because you'd be breaking up the cartels, that were limiting. Innovation. There's. So much global competition, now. The. Competition is so intense. That. Frankly, there's just not that much, going on in, antitrust, practice. Or theory. Firms. May be curtailing, innovation. Because. Of competitive, a competitive, pressures but. That's not an underlying. Cartel. Problem, right, because. The competition is there so this one is is, less. Present. Now. Than it was back in that kind of 30s kind of timetable 1/4, is Keynesianism. You. Remember John Maynard Keynes, Keynes. Develops. Some. Crucial fundamentals. Of economic, theory. His. Principal. Contribution is, that in periods of economic downturn. Government. Spending can step up to the plate and substitute, for the decline in private spectacle, spending, and in effect. Stabilize. An economy, so we just saw this whole theory played out in the economic stimulus bill right, that's what happened in the. 2009. Stimulus bill massive, economic. Stimulus. I think. The economists, would say that it, worked all, right it did, stabilize. The economy and fairly. Surprisingly. Short order given the depth of the threat. We. Didn't slip into another Great, Recession a Great. Depression. But the idea here is applies to science and technology is. Look. Out for the macro investment. Levels right. Get. Those have. A governmental, role in, funding. Investment. In research, and development. Because. The public sector is not prone to take those take longer term risks, and the, government, can substitute for that so. This factor is still with us right. That's why in the, first class when I had you read the National Science Foundation, indicators, that told us all about investment. Levels by government, in, R&D. Right. That's. That's. Keynesian. Thinking that's. Government. Substituting. Because the private sector has difficulty, undertaking, longer-term high risk investment, in. Research. So, that's another, ideological. Kind. Of element here the, fifth is a little bit like conservatism, but it's much more far-reaching. This. Emerges, more to in a cold war and this. Doctrine, says. Whatever. It takes national. Security is so critical, we will do anything right. The. Government, will be every bit as interventionist. As. It, needs to be in order to get us national, security. And. That's. Still very much alive right. I'd. Say someone, like Senator John McCain is currently. The chairman of the Armed Services Committee. You. Know Senator. McCain is probably a conservative when, it comes to federal R&D investment.
Generally. Speaking but when it comes to defense. Whatever. It takes right, so, an organization, like in-q-tel. Which. Essentially, buys a, controlling. Share in companies so that the government can get the technologies, at once. Its. Government. Becoming. A venture, capitalists on steroids. McCain. Is a huge fan of that model right and, in-q-tel. Works, in the. Intelligence. Intelligence. Security kind of areas so this. Movement is around - and, this. Is essential, boniva bush, puts. Together when. He creates a connected, science model we'll talk about a little later during. World War two so, these are the ideologies. I'll, just summarize them very quickly again conservatism. Government. Can do military innovation. But that's it. Associational. Ism that's the public-private, partnership, model. Reformed, liberalism. Which is stamp. Out cartels, they limit, innovation. And that's that's, not really a powerful movement at this point because of international competition. Keynesianism. Which, is analyzed Science and Technology based upon these macro, investment, levels. By. The public, sector which. Serves. To offset. A market, failure on the private sector side and then the fifth one is this national security state so, when I was working on the Senate I saw. All of these sometimes. All. Of them in a single day in debate. On the Senate floor as people would take different, perspectives. And different political. Understandings. Of the role of R&D, in science and technology so these are all still very much with us and guide. A lot of thinking to this day the, latest example as I mentioned was, president. Trump's FY 18 budget. And. It's, his position, explicit, position, on on supporting, research which a lot. Of it the private sector can just picked up it's just straight out of the conservatism, playbook. All. Right Chloe. It's, yours. He. Gave a rundown, very, effective rendering of all the different. For. A third time and for everyone, I think. Just in conclusion, hanging, on to that it's interesting to, note, and. Heart sort of makes the point that an.
Ever-changing, Political. Tide, he, says that it generates a lot of policy entrepreneurs so, people coming out and being like oh this is my new policy it's brand new it's never been seen before but, in actuality a lot of these theories were. Sort. Of Frankenstein, models, from previous theories and the, successful ones often. Owe their success in part to the pre-existence, of other, institutions, that they could. And resources, that already existed that they could be purpose, for. You know readjusting, their mission for how they viewed how, science and technology research funding. Should actually. Go. About so. In looking through a lot of your summaries and questions like a lot of people, wanted. To discuss. The. Relevance of these five. Visions, to this particular time, period maybe what. Political, climate, we have now at what combination, would hybrid of these five that we are living with today and then, also maybe. What, components, of each are actually successful in, your own personal opinion or experience, for for. Funding research so, just to sort, of hone in I. Found. Association, ilysm and. Liberal. Perform. Liberalism the two most interesting ones this, is my first question for you all um sort. Of talk about a bit of a tragedy of the Commons type situation, so, okay the institutions desired, by Association, ilysm are intriguing. But. Does such an implementation. Have a degree of naivete, outside, of wartime are, all. Who utilize new information, as a resource. Do. All who do all who utilize, the information as a resource as an. Ends to the mean of their final product are they also invested, in the idea of sharing that information with, their competition, even, on a national scale I think, that's something. A lot of people would think it's not you. Well. It. Probably depends in the context, so. If, you were to look at Conant actually, a shameless plug good, that's my reading so. If. You look at that in. The time period during World War two people.
You'd Count your companies that were fighting this absolute. Evil that was going. To just engulf, the entire planet in, a Nazi regime, people. Were scared so they thought okay you know what we're gonna do whatever it takes to fight this and he was in everyone's best interest to fight it and share all the knowledge that they could actually, in another class I was reading a case study on your heard of Lincoln Electric it's. This company, they make arc welders they've been working for like a few decades and they. Actually showed a lot of their manufacturing, secrets, during World War two just for that reason so. That's, one. Read that's one way it's not extremely. Naive like they just need the right incentive, on the other hand you, look. At today when there isn't an overarching evil, that, everyone. Can unite behind and try, to fight against people. Have they, they don't have as much incentive to share all, their secrets yeah so you think that you specifically, need that that defense urge, for. That cooperation take this that's. What history has shown me at, least what I can tell. And. I'm glad to tell you max that next, week we'll have a reading that's entitled is, more necessary for, economic growth. Continue. This discussion. Do. You think that any, any. Institution, that might. Benefit, from this sort of like. Government-funded. Encyclopedia. Of information, do you think people wouldn't want to contribute to that or take from that at a time where there wasn't this a. Pretty. Existing. Military. Need because, I mean I think it's arguable. That, you. Would still benefit of, these theories to me one of the overarching, things I notice is that a lot of them a. Lot. Of people. Seem to feel the need for the. Government providing, something that would facilitate. Communication. Between. Innovators. And people who implemented, them in industry, it, would save a lot of time if the people who the people everyone, liked had the same terms and everyone knew what was possible and achievable and. That's. Something that's implementable, even outside of time, when the country all needs to work together it, also could, it. Could scare some people who, went, through the Great Recession where, you've got industries, that are quote unquote too big to fail because, then if you have all these industries, they're all sharing all of their information. In. Some sense they kind, of are becoming. One big conglomerate, then at least that's the way that the thinking could go now there are flaws with that like they don't share the same finances, the same employees, all all, sorts of stuff but people, could. Rationalize. That it's a step toward that and. From. There. It. That also could. Reduce competition, then, you have, hey the antitrust, law has come back and they're actually interesting again so. Yeah. Right. So Chloe you're pushing us to the point that, you. Know given your interest in the Association, list model the public-private, partnership, model. This. Is exactly, what Hoover was driving, at that there, may be a way of creating. At least limited cooperation. Particularly. Around fundamentals, what, has become known as pre, competitive, research whether it's research before, it reaches a competitive, level that's key to your company, at, least you could comp you could all cooperate, on the pre competitive, stuff so, that has been a conscious part of the design of, some, of these public-private. Partnership, models in timetables like the Clinton administration, for example in particular. Could. Companies come together and, share, resources, around this pre competitive, stuff even. If they were gonna be at each other's throats, the. Moment that work was completed. You. Know and how practical, is that are they really gonna be willing to do that so.
The Manufacturing. Institute's that we mentioned last week this. Is a critical, issue for them right, absolutely critical issue how do you get all these, manufacturing. Companies, small and large into. The same room to cooperate, when they're all also in competition and, the, manufacturing, Institute model, is actually pretty applied stuff right. It's around production, processes, that for some companies may be their secret sauce so. How do you you've, identified a really critical barrier, in, this. Association, list model how do you get this kind of collaboration. You. Know given the reality, and importance, of, competition. I've. Been here for a while I'll throw the thought that of course um which, is I do think it's really specific, areas and pre-competitive. And, also enabling, technologies. Like, looking. Today and we're not seeing it really happen but. Companies. Are excited. Energy. Companies are excited about getting together on carbon, capture and, sequestration. You, know partly to enable them to just keep running. Their companies, now we haven't seen anything formal, really happen. And then technology is still way too expensive it. But. I think, it's specific areas. Yeah. It's. An interesting idea Martha, in, other words in areas, that are outside your, core competitive advantage, could, you get together with others because it might help everybody right. But. If you consider your secret sauce is something other than the actual manufacturing. If you're a conglomerate, you, know that has. Great. Product, design you know I don't know you know is that does that work I don't know I don't know where you were willing to open up, your secrets right. I mean one of the manufacturing, Institute's we talked about last week was, around 3d printing and it turns out that. That is gonna be, an absolutely. Critical, core, technology. And the way in which anybody, ever makes another jet aircraft, engine right I mean, maybe not this week but certainly in the foreseeable future right, it's gonna be absolutely, critical, so. There's, frankly, been a tremendous, amount of nervousness. When. Companies, like Pratt, and GE and, Lockheed, and Boeing and, others come into the same room hence. You. Know, who's. Ahead right. And are they gonna share their secret sauce and how's this gonna work so it's working on the intellectual property agreements have been really complicated so this public-private. Partnership. Model, there's. A lot of examples of it working brilliantly but it is not an easy model to bring these highly competitive firms together and try to get them to agree on an agenda, that. They might be able to work the other on that would say them all resources, and funding and and Martha runs into that I'm, sure everyday and mighty. I. Thought. Another. Discussion. An interesting contrast that emerged between them sort of off of that topic of trying. To figure out who the. Other people like what, they're thinking other people in the room what they're thinking and what your competition is thinking is that both these two, policies seem to have their different two theories seem to have very different views on you.
Get A little philosophical thean eight goodness, or lack thereof and industry leaders and. And. I, think this was such fun I forget the name of the reading it was a later one about how there's a philosophical. Difference between basic research and applied research and, the people who. Make. A career out of each the bank at the end of the day they have different end goals and different. Core. Values, so, I thought it was interesting that that was sort of superimposed on to industry leaders and I wasn't, quite sure if that, actually. Makes a wide base, for an economic, policy is, judgment. Calls about human, nature so, you, know that's a little touchy-feely, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone was like good. Idea bad, idea I. Have. The reading a you're talking about yeah oh, yeah. I. Think a really, important, distinction, that he makes is that whether. To sort of base it off of like speculating, like, speculating if these, are the goals of the actors or like, retro, actively knowing and I think like that's a really important distinction because if you're making policy, of course like you can't you know like hindsight is 20/20 I didn't know like where attractively if you have to have some degree of speculation. Which. Is something that I think well, I was quite, proud Stokes was trying to say they're abusing this the, retroactive. Way of looking at it is actually better than the speculative way of looking at it but, I think like it's a little bit impractical when you're thinking about policy positions to kind. Of try to, interpret. What the goals of a certain actor are going to be based on something like their human nature or like some, other type of kind, of non tangible. Boy. Would you give us a closing, thought on, David, Hart, I. Guess. I. Have. A, question. For anyone that I haven't feel like they haven't come to it including, um, how. Have these policies, sort, of survived the test of time because, they're, all so, built, on each other and come, from different periods Rober to cold war little, cream or and. And different manufacturing, stages throughout our history they're, all sort of in to open and interdependent. What. Does that leave us with today what, lessons, have you learned in what theories. Are working for us right now. Was. It sort of presumed. That scientists. And technologists. Today. Because. In that sense it would so, much be a conflict, between ideologies. But a conflict, between how. Much that person chose, to put in money in the industry that they are a part of and how much they are motivated, by what. They know, and what they don't know. You. Put your you, know finger right on the pulse, of a critical, issue. Steff. So it's it's, I mean, the reason why I'm teaching this class is so that all of you will be citizen, scientists, and be ready to do, great science and engineering and technology, and run, venture capital firms and start companies I want you to do all that stuff but in addition if you'd also hold public office I'd appreciate, it. No, in other words the scientist this is an intensely, interest, group driven. Political. System of God right, and if, you don't show up you, don't get counted, right, and. Frankly. Science and engineering doesn't. Show up very much and that's. There's. A lot at stake as we speak you, know now. And part. Of the story is that, the. Community, of, scientists. And engineers is. Not. In. They're. Not on the front lines and in. An interest, driven, Society, that's. Really problematic, now. It's storytelling, time all. Right I couldn't resist putting this in because. At. Least those of you from MIT this is an important part of your history but I think it's fun for everybody. This. Is Alfred Loomis and. Louie. Alvarez, the great physicist, called him the last of the great amateurs, of science, and, you. Know he's a very good-looking guy as you can tell that's. The rad lab in MIT right. Where the state of building is now right. That's. Rad. Lab leaders radar, sets this is an early army, radar. Set right, and that's, the business of, the rad lab that, Loomis creates and what's, this story right. So, if you go over to Stata and you wander around on the first floor you. Know at the end of one of the students streets you're. Gonna see. Some. Of these radar sets right, now there's plaques. And, stuff around there saying, this, was where the rad lab was and, from. An MIT perspective. One. Statistic, you need to know is that in. The. Period from. 1941. To 1945. MIT. As, an, institution, received. 80. Times. More federal, funding, than. It did in all, its previous 80 years. This. Is what creates the federally funded research, university. Right and. It. Starts. Big time. At. The red lab this, is where MIT, becomes, a critical, and big, and important institution, right it really scales, up it's, not alone this, is happening at other research, universities across.
The Country and. It's. The story of Loomis. So. Let, me just give you a little background, on him. Born. In 1887, died in 1975. He. Comes from this wasp blue blood family in New York and his father is a society. Doctor, you know serving, those blue bloods I'm, not sure they ever had any health problems, but if they did his father was there until. His father runs, off with his secretary. This. Is when Loomis's, life changes. Loomis. Is now stuck with the responsibility, for the family he. Can't do what he wanted to do study. Science. Right. Study. Has to go to light become. An investment banker, heaven. Forbid. So. He, has, technical. Training and a. Love for science and strong undergraduate, science training. He. Goes into Investment, Banking he, understands, technology, he. Makes an absolute. One of the great fortunes, of the, 1920s. And, his. Investment, banking firm is setting up utility. Companies utility, holding companies he understands, the electricity. Technology, the transmission, technology. He's. Able to capitalize on that and make a, fortune for essentially electrifying, the you know large parts of the country. He. Sees. What's, gonna happen and. In. 1928. He, takes his entire, fortune. Every. Last dime, and gets. Out of the market right, because he saw the bubble and. Then. What's he do. So. He's got you know the estate. Tudor. House pond. Grounds. Lawns. 40. Acres worth. In a place called tuxedo, Park, which. Is about 40 miles north of New York City the. Tuxedo. You, know the funny penguin suit comes from tuxedo, Parkins the kind of clothing they used to wear there in the evening right gives, you an idea what it's like it's, like the first kind of gated. Multi. Acres, suburb, right. For. This you, know compound, for, staggeringly, rich people from New York City. Only. 40 miles north of the city so he's got this Tudor mansion there. He. Loves science he's. Walked out with his entire fortune intact. He, creates. Probably. The top, private. Research, laboratory. In the. 1930s, and he staffs. It with. An incredible group of scientists, but. In particular, he specializes. In what we now call the summer, study, and. He's. There researching, himself his, field is physics, particularly, microwave, physics and. He. Invites in the who's who of physics, from, all over the world so. You. Know the famous European, physicists, are there for summer projects, and they're rowing.
On The pond and playing lawn tennis on his lawn tennis courts, and doing a little research and, talking. Away and having great meals it's a nice setting right, you, get the picture, he. Gets, to know the whole who's who of physics and he's doing. Important. Work himself. In. Physics. In this. Microwave physics area. Time passes. What. Where two breaks out in Europe. He's. Very, sympathetic to the Brits. He. Becomes. His. Mentor, his first cousin is Henry, Stimson who's Secretary, of War to Franklin Roosevelt. Stimson's. Are you know a famous leader of the War Department during, World War two and a very talented. Highly. Respected, figure in that era, he had been Secretary of State previously, in the Coolidge administration. Stimson. Trusts. Loomis. They're. Their, first cousins but. In effect Stimpson is, Loomis's. Father figure, so. Loomis. Becomes a very critical advisor. To. Stimson in this. Pre-war period of 39, and 40 and, in. Addition Loomis is serving, with. Boniva Bush who we'll talk about in a minute on. The. Early. Defense, research, committees. So. Let's. Switch, to Britain. So. Britain. In the United States developed, radar roughly, about the same time. Right. In. The. U.s. context, that was developed by the Navy at, the. Naval Research Laboratory on the Anacostia, River and, you know, they were fiddling, around with radio. And, they. Were shooting radio, beams across the Anacostia, River and they noticed this peculiar thing which. Was you, know a boat. Would. Come down the river and the. Radio beam would bounce back, you. Know voila, radar right, the, British were doing experiments. At roughly the same time period. And. Because. You know US wasn't 100, miles away from German. Bombers or 200, miles away from German bombers there. Was no sense of emergency, and developing radar in the United States there was a considerable sense of him urgency developing. Radar in Germany. The. Going, doctrine, of the, time based upon what happened in Spanish Civil War. Was. That mass, bombing, was. Going to be a core. Offensive. Military strategy, and that, there was nothing you could do to, stop the bombers from getting through. The. Bomber will always, get through was the prevailing doctrine, right, and people began to see the effect of mass bombing, from. You. Know sites like Garnica during the Spanish Civil War and it was a nightmare it was a complete nightmare it dictated, a lot of, the. Politics, of appeasement in the 1930s, because. The assumption, was that you, couldn't defend, against. These bombing raids and that, cities, like London, and others. Would, just be leveled at, huge. Slaughter. So. The, if, your assumption, is that you can't defend it against them that. You're going to lose and, you're going to lose a huge part of your population. You. Can understand, where a lot of peas Medoc Turin comes from where Chamberlain, and Baldwin are coming from.
Meanwhile. Winston. Churchill always. A maverick. Is. Trying. To figure out you, know what to do about this situation because it's untenable, from his political perspective. So. There's. An interesting, figure. Named. 2 xored who. Is. Head. Of Imperial. College in London, previously. A professor, but in War one a pilot, and in. World War one because his eyes weren't that good he was relegated to being a test pilot in the RAF, right, the early. Version. Of the Royal Air Force Royal. Flying Corps, and. He, learned, pilot. Talk and how to get along with pilots, he was one and he knows the language he understands, how it works and. The. Radar idea, comes. To desorb as a noted, academic, he's heading a scientific, advisory group for the Royal Air Force and, he. Seizes, and. Realizes. This, could. Be the. Core of a defensive strategy against. The, bomber that might. Be able to stop it from going through. And. He. You, know just because you have a technology idea, it doesn't mean anybody in the military is going to adopt it it's got to become operational, so he spends years. Working. With the. Royal. Air Force trying, to develop an operational, doctrine, to, integrate, these, early, long-range, radar, systems. The. Communications. With the Spitfires. And fighter planes and hurricanes to. Communicate, the results that they're seeing on these on. Their long, wave radar, screens right get those up to the fire pilots get them up in the air and get them to the right location at the right time that's critical, right, because, you can't maintain continuous cover, with. Fighter planes their, short distance, and they're under fueled and they have limited range so, if you try to defend against a thousand, bombers you can only have a certain number of fighter planes up in the air in any given moment but if you know exactly when the Bombers are coming in and exactly, where they're gonna be and what else do they're gonna be at then. You can mass your fighter planes and get, them positioned ahead of time and then take them on and that's, what the British figured out with radar now. Their system, was, long weighed radar, so. They had like a system all around the coast of. Like, these big 60-foot. Like telephone, pole kinds of things and then, these big 30-foot. Things that look like bed springs only they were about 30 feet long right, and it. Was called the chain home, system, it was all around you know the critical parts the coast and then, they would, get. Information. From the radar sets to, an operational, center that would run the fighter plane cover system at, air bases throughout the, you, know British Isles and. Scramble. These jets these, scramble these fighter planes and get them up just in the nick of time. It's. Very clumsy. Right. Because, the. Pilots, don't have the radar they're, talking, to somebody who. Is in turn talking to somebody about what the radar says you, can imagine, what the communication is like I mean you have to get it down to you. Know almost, a separate language on how to communicate to people so it's very tough. Wouldn't. It be better if, the, radar was, in the airplane. But. If it's long-wave how are you gonna put this 30 foot bed spring, into. A fighter aircraft that's the problem so the British work on. Frantically. Working, on. Microwave. Radar. You, know 10, centimeter, long. Radar. Beams with. The idea that, whoever. Figures this out is can have a staggering. Tactical. And strategic advantage. In the war and. They. Put a team on it and, they. Come up with 12, early, sets. Of. Microwave. Radar. Then. What they're gonna do. Well. Britain. Has so allowed, its industrial base to erode. That. The. Best thinking is you know we're going flat out on building munitions we, don't have capacity, to take up this whole, new territory of, effectively. Invent electronics. Right. We, can't do that who, could do it the. Americans, so. Churchill. Pressed. By cazar and others comes. Up with the idea that. They'll. Take, microwave. Radar and a bunch of other secrets, that they've got because remember british science, is, very. Strong probably stronger than american science at this point we, wouldn't think so but that's, probably the case and. Tizard. Is nominated to lead a mission to. The United States and. Essentially. Offered to put they offer to put their secrets on the table if we the. United States will put our secrets on the table well. Trade secrets, that, would be the deal. So. A. Group. Of scientists, and a couple of military officers, get. On a high-speed, passenger, ship, now. Passenger, ships are moving at about 30 knots across the ocean, u-boats. Are much slower. On. The surface 14:15. Nuts far.
Slower If they're running below, the surface so. Nobody's, sank a passenger, ship on the Atlantic route during, war too they always get across right, so. They, go into Halifax and, they, have in a suitcase. The. Most, critical, secret of the war, one. Of these 12 microwave. Radar says. Loomis. Flies, over to Halifax. They. Take the train down. They. Go to Washington, there's. A meeting at the Wardman Park Hotel. At. The Wardman Park Oh which is still there Loomis. Rich. Guy right, consulting, in Washington, trying to help the war effort he's got a pen test right, on the top of the word mid-part Hotel. Fireplace. I'm, sure it's nice. The. Meeting is at a private dining room downstairs. Right. Just. Off the big dining room with this fancy Wardman, Park Hotel. Loomis. As Stimson's, unofficial, adviser about, science and technology has convened, the military leaders from the services, from the Army, and Marine, Corps in the Air Force and. This. Is apocryphal. May, not exactly be the case but, in. Essence, our. Uniformed. Military leaders, have decided, that. They're. Not going to agree to. Exchange secrets, they're, not going to do it they. Think Britain is going down. Battle. Of Britain is hanging in the balance. They. Think Britain is gonna lose anything, that goes to Britain is gonna fall in the hands of Germany. So. They hit on a strategy this, is the apocryphal party pretending. To get drunk at. The meal and falling, asleep in their soup dishes right. This. May be exaggerated, it was told to me by someone but we'll see, so. They, do it and the. Brits have just, come across the ocean they've got the suitcase with them in the room right, I mean. You know the war is hanging in the balance you. Know work could be one of these Yanks just pick up this technology and manufacture it right, lots. At stake and. They. Start throwing out hints, a. Little. Hints about. This. Cavity, magnetron as, they call it and it's, microwave. Capabilities. And. Of course sitting, in the at the head of the table is offered Lomas who happens, to be America's, leading microwave. Physicist at this point author of numerous articles and so forth no PhD but, for every intended purpose the lead scientist, in the field he. Gets the hints he's. Been working on a much earlier stage of radar himself, he. Starts, to understand what they're talking about a little, more time passes. Loomis. Goes up to his penthouse with. Buzard and the five others sitting. Around the fireplace and. The. Story comes out, right. And then. They in turn meet, at you guessed at Tuxedo, Park and, the, suitcase exchanges, hands and, then. Loomis, who probably, unique in. The. Country is capable of understanding what, this technology is right. How powerful, it is if you. Put a radar, set in an airplane the. Airplane can. See. Right. The, airplane can fly at night, right.
Not Just during the daytime, it. Can do, its own. Interception. And its own targeting, it doesn't have to rely on clumsy, radar signals. Going. Through two or three people you, know down on the ground it's, a transformative. Technology, he, understands, what it is he's been himself working on kind of a much earlier stage of this. What's. He do well. You. Know never underestimate. The power of, wasp blueblood, family, connections. So, he immediately gets, on the phone with Henry Stimson his, first cousin and mentor, and surrogate, father, Henry. Got. A move on this, go. See Roosevelt, Henry same day go see Franklin Roosevelt Franklin Roosevelt. Well. Know Dutch. Wasp, blue blood family connections, yes, move on entering so. Literally, within a day the fundamental, decisions are made Tizard. Advises. Lumis on the structure, of the. Organization that the Brits have put together, to. Do this right. And the. Americans, decide to do the same thing so what the desired setup, this. Is not a, bureaucratic. Military, laboratory, that. Is doing radar in Britain, this, is civilian, scientists, not, in uniform right. Organized. In a loose almost academic. Kind of flat non, hierarchical, way where. Everybody pitches, in with the best ideas there's leadership there's organization. But. It's, not a military, bureaucracy. Loomis, doesn't have to be persuaded to this he had worked in the war effort in war one and found, the military bureaucracy. Impregnable. To ideas, right. It had been completely frustrating, to him the, Neva Bush had a similar experience completely. Frustrated, as well so. They latch. On to the way in which the Brits have organized. Their. Scientific, advisory groups and their. Organizational. Efforts for doing science in a wartime setting. The. Microwave, radar, is. A really important, importation. The. Model, of scientific, organization, is every, bit as important. And Loomis. Runs with them both. Loomis. Immediately gets a hold of one of his very best friends who was Ernest Lawrence who, is the most prominent American physicist, at the time. Loomis. Had been personally, funding, Ernest, Lawrence work to, build the early cyclotrons. Up. On cyclotron, Road up above the Berkeley campus look. Word Lawrence's, and professor. They're. Very close Loomis. Has been paying for Wright and his projects, so. He gets Lawrence. On the phone and, says get out here I can't, talk to you the phone let's get out of Lawrence. It's, unusually, the time doesn't take the trainee flies. Meets. Within, days with. Loomis the, two of them get, on the phone because of the summer studies at Tuxedo Park, Loomis. Knows everybody, and Lawrence knows everybody else they. Get on the phone in the car sessions are like this hi. We're. Gonna set up a new laboratory, we. Can't tell you anything about it arrived. In Cambridge, in two weeks and quit. Your job. They. All come right. So powerful, or Loomis and, Lawrence. That they, come right, the. Who's who of physics. In the United States shows, up now, why are they going to show up in Cambridge, it's. Another critical part of our story. Here's. Some of the characters that were in the room. So. There's this defense, advisory, group, that. The neva Bush here. Is. Running and. Loomis. Is his advisor, here. On. Air. Defense microwave, radar all is radar, stuff and. The. Neighbor Bush and Loomis call a meeting. To. Make a decision about where to put this new critical. Defense, laboratory, that's gonna work on microwave radar. Not. In this picture is. You. Remember Frank Jewett the, exponent, of conservatism, who's, head, of Bell Labs and and. The National, Academies, Frank. Is in the room, Frank. Says well. We're. Gonna put a dull labs, right. That's where it's gonna go, who. Would even think otherwise. There's. A vote. So. In. The room is. Karl. Compton president. Of MIT and James. Conant, president. Of Harvard, you. May recall that those two schools are in Cambridge. Loomis. And boniva. Bush and that's. That's, Lawrence, by the way right. And. That's. Arthur, Compton who is Carl's brother also quite prominent, and important physicist the time and involved in this defense work and he's not alone so, and then.
Jewett, So, it's one. Two three. Four. Plus. Frank Jewett, surprise. The vote is four to one it's, going to go to MIT. And, you. Know all there is in MIT is industrial, space all over the place and it's, just coming out of the depression so there's a lot of space in MIT, so. President. Compton volunteers, the space and. That's. How come the rad lab gets, stood up at MIT and it, is a remarkably. Successful, organization. This is how. This. Is the foundation, of electronics. In the United States right this is where most of that comes from of. The. Numerous. Scientists, that worked at the rad. Lab I think 10, win. The Nobel Prize. The. Group of scientists, that. Set. Up the rad lab do, it on this radical, flat non-hierarchical. Collaborative. Stay. At a uniform. Organizational. Model. Lewis. Plays a critical role in scaling, up the Manhattan, Project which. Have been kind of desolate or ysou Loomis next jumps on that problem he gets that organized. Oppenheimer. Who we will talk about in class seven is, designated. To head that project, up, an hour doesn't how to organize, this stuff. Eleven. People go from, the rad lab to. Organized, Los. Alamos, and worked there, right. And I, I Rabi, is the who is from the rad lab of great Columbia physicist. And, Nobel. Prize winner, he. Becomes up and I'm his adviser on how to organize the Los Alamos, project, so. You begin to get the picture here is a great story about a particular technology, but. Frankly, more important, in that story is, a story of scientific, organization, how, are we going to organize science. In this country and, the. What. We call the FFRDC. Federally, funded research and development center. Right. That. Is going to be the model and the first one of those is the, rad lab in MIT. Then. Los, Alamos and then so on right, Lincoln, Laboratory, up, the street is organized, on exactly, the same kind of line, so. It's the organizational. Model in the end that's most critical Rashid. Cyclotron. Drying on the chalkboard. That's. Very cool I've always wondered what it was yeah. It's, all about like the two halves. And. Then. This. One yeah random. Sinusoid, thank. You. That's. Great no I know the picture better. He. Could check that out that'd be fascinating. Yeah. I, don't, see the chalk in his hand though I don't know. But. It's entirely possible. But. I think they're all smiling in half because they just rolled Bell, Labs and Frank Jewett I think it's what's going. All. Right. That's. My storytelling. What's. That. It. Is a cyclotron. Is. It it's. A step, it's a cyclotron great. Rachid, good that was good. Hey. That's, Lawrence. This. Guy, that. Called Compton, was both the guy who made Compton scattering and, the president of MIT oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean this is this is an unbelievable. Collection in this room and that is. Hard. To beat that collection of talent and. Genet, qanats. Grandfather. Is. James Conant so, she's able to do the book on Loomis, because. She's got all the family records, all. The correspondence. So Rashid we have a scientific consensus, that that's what it is.
All. Right great, thank you that'll. Add a whole new piece to the evolution, of the story overdone. That's. Good. All. Right max, have you got this one yeah all, right all right so I can actually tell us what actually happened yeah. See. I don't know you Pro, you covered. It in spades. My. Favorite story yeah. I. Did. Appreciate it so something either when, I was reading it I thought this had taken place before the Manhattan Project as ever before yes. Okay. Which I thought so this group may well be gathering around next stages of the Manhattan Project yeah okay so because these folks are central. To everything, that goes on in science in. That world war ii period so, i thought that was one of the general. Like, that emphasizes the genius of this group because. Before. Them there weren't really like giant, gatherings, of the sort or even it wasn't before the manhattan project so something of that scale never been done before, oh. Yeah. To build the atomic bomb, yeah. So. Liuyan that's the great crash project, at Los Alamos, up. On a Mason. Surrounded, by barbed wire way off in the desert so, New. Mexico, that, does most of the critical work on developing, atomic weapons in, the course of war - and the great fear, you. Know as max suggested, earlier was, that most of us physicists. Knew Heisenberg. Personally, and. Heisenberg's. In charge of the German atomic projects, they know how brilliant he is. They. Think he's, gonna get there first that they're way behind and. The. War would be over I mean in an hour all. Right if. Germany got in there first so that's why there's such a crash project, put together the Manhattan Project, but this rad lad stuff is equally, important, right. From a from. A tactical point, of view in terms of the ability of aircraft, to operate the, power of, power in World War two the. Ability of radar systems, to see incoming, air strikes. You. Know the ability of fleets to manage, air attacks all, that stuff comes out of here right and those are critical, day-to-day, developments, in what war - so. The. Atomic bomb may have been the final ending of the war but the day-to-day warfare. Has dramatically, changed by the microwave, Raider, the. Question, the first question that I thought up and I was just looking, at all this reading I was thinking well they. Were able to take this, design and build, up the manufacturing, facilities, build up the lab scale, everything get all the people and, make. These planes with this radar equipment really, quickly, because the war is only like four years so they had to do all of that in that time span so, what I was what. Struck, me was just how did they get it so quickly was it only because they had as I, mentioned earlier the Nazi. Germany threat that they had to actually face or and, is. There any way that we could do that today any way. That we could without, some, sort of evil, that we have to fight is. There any way that we can increase. The, speed of I, don't know research, progress or at, least. Developed. Our development. Side of R&D, if we can make it that quick I, think. Just. MIT. History. But. In my day. Not and today like. My. Lab. Builds. Cube sets that are oftentimes. Funded, by the. Air. Force Research Laboratory and it's. An interesting, experiencing. The. Extremely. Short, developmental. Lifecycle, of these spacecraft. That, are technically, supposed to be student, platform spacecraft but still spacecraft. Being. Churned out in two years which. Is ridiculous that's. Really fast and I think that that development, speed. Is achievable, because. Of, the, combination, of a lot of money from a government. Institution. Given. To an academic institution where, you have a lot of young, people who are very passionate to do good work who, haven't been. Sort. Of exhausted. By the industry, already another, passion is still there they're still lighting, their eyes and. Then they have the resources to you know everyone's in one building or you. Know, everyone. Can like easily connect to the resources they need so it's. A good you, utilization. Of funds given. To people who know how to use them quickly so I, think that combination. Yeah. And I think that I think that the. Nazi. Threat is definitely something that lit fire under the wreath under the research leading. To application. And. Widespread. Use but. There were also a couple of really, important. Factors, in this. Particular. Instance one is that Loomis, bankrolled, a lot of this stuff by himself at the very beginning and so, it, took the government along.
More. Years, I think to get to get behind it financially. And finally. Jump on board and then, the other is that. Lewis. Can do pretty. Much anything he wants. Because Stimson. His cousin Stimson just gives me this like blank you know carte blanche. Do. We have to do. But. I think that I don't know what Louie Alvarez, it makes a really bold statement there, like the last of the amateurs, of science, I don't know what about Bill. Gates for example is trying to do something I think sort, of analogous. At this point in time working with the the newer, nuclear. Reactors, that he's trying to set up and he's bankrolling that to a large degree and has to be MIT online, courses and physics at the same time. Exactly. It's another group. So. His. Amateur like. Maybe there's a difference between I don't, know what he defines as an amateur and maybe Bill Gates of course it depends his specific, definition. Other. Questions, that I had included, so. Someone. Had mentioned someone had asked the question I think. It was Stimson, who, had said that he would prefer to just stay with the involve of his research and he really didn't want to get involved in politics or any sort of, war. Effort, so. Someone. Has to well should, research. Should. Scientists, usually just stay in that, in. That mindset, and just mostly, stay into their research or should they get involved in politics at all and, I see the advantages, of both because on one hand if you have people that are only working on research well. They. May. Have a unique perspective they can contribute to politics, but on the other hand that's time they're spending away from their research when they could be producing, something that could be helping people across, the planet so. I, was just curious you guys any thoughts on that. No. Effect on. The. Outside world in general just because you're studying the outside world that's. Gonna exist outside of the lab and, it, will have an effect like, no matter what you do, scientifically. Like, so. You have your academic research circle, that's, probably directly affected and then, if you look outside of that if your research is impactful enough you're, just gonna have no matter what like there, are political ramifications, and. Everything like that everything you do and so I think, reminding, Sciences to be cognizant, of those things just. Actually asking, them to actively kind of take this into consideration while, they do research it's. Sort of necessary just. Because that's, just how the world works you, can't really. Put. A drop in the bucket and not experience ripple effects outside. And. So I think and, this. Is probably one, of the really solid examples of why that's probably a good thing because you have these people very interested obviously in. Academic. Yeah like, the academic. Implications. Of radar. Sort. Of electromagnetism, but also like war, efforts and I definitely think that like this current political climate definitely. Emphasizes. Why. Scientists, should make their opinions more known and the. Consequences, of not. So. These scientists. And engineers like to do their work as entirely. Objective like, what they're doing is like black. And white like what's the truth and this is not and I think that misses out a lot on the like social context, in which they're doing their work and other. The. Fact that both, like what they're studying and how they study it is affected, by like the world that they live in and, so saying, that they can like isolate themselves from that doesn't, feel very realistic, and, or. Active I. Want. To go back to that. We. Are is I think what he meant is there's, a whole period time whereas like Sir.
Oliver Lodge Lord, Kelvin. JK. Time soon, tends, lowers like people who just did experiments, versus. Now it's more academic more learning about theories and then you do some research but there's people that only they, only they did the experiment and they're like came to conclusions, and then they felt stuff also those conclusions about what they built so there's more of a organic. Process, of innovation. The. Benefit to of like Loomis was he came from Wall Street so the agent has cycles getting things done sometimes, you step on some toes and. So there's some benefit step to that kind of attitude because, he did kind of he thought about it more like a business problem in terms like oh we get the best people clean incentivize them to be here right and he privilege me like the first thing start, up thank you thank, you Bader and. Then also who, do I need to know to get this thing done right, because he could definitely spend like I'm rich. Take. Some drinks. He. Does somebody who had to get things done but he just was kind of had a side interest and that's usually like some, of some of the most interesting people where they come from one domain and then they go into. You. Know in that Cavendish, lab but it was a fascinating great, group in the 1920s, it's, really fascinating. Yeah. At Cambridge, where. Thompson, and some of the others this. Theory that we. Should think about science more than politics, there's different schools of thought and the problem with science right now is more that we only have one way of thinking about you. Learn science one way one. Way whereas, if you've got different perspectives, and make it easier to solve problems and. That's a very powerful thing. Yeah. Citing include, Loomis myself so that said that he thought the scientists, were more productive focused, out of their research getting him off his hog exactly. Maybe he almost saw himself as, kind, of the interphasic so, that's, more as a more amateur scientist but he's kind of facilitating, this to make it possible and. Yeah. I think it's important on scientists, think about it by yes I do agree that. They. Should be. Focused and maybe have other people interface, so yeah I think I'll. Be interested to hear what those that is working in the MIT, DC office and, a. Large, part of what you guys do I imagine we. Stopped me through the professor's, here advocating. On, their behalf. At. A similar point to, that just like if you have an organization with.
People, Serving different functions like maybe scientists. Can stick. To their realm of specialty, who focus on their research out there are other people connecting, them to. Politics. I. Mean. I think about. Looking. At this. And. I think. Congress. Needs. And. Then, you know we run the office and the top floor. But. The reason I think one him. Other. Than the fact that I'm enormous crush is that. He. Is one of those scientists, who I almost feel, like there's an immense trade-off. Because. He became a public servant because he could be doing so much incredible, work in his. Area of specialty, and expertise, and at the same time I trust no one but him to run the Department of Energy right, and so there's that, sense that. He. Can. Do what he wants because he is an adult. Expert. And at, the same time, that. Is an immensely personal, calculation, that he has to make about how where he feels he can make the best contribution. Right, so I feel like our jobs not only as you know students. Taking this course and its stakeholders in, the future of a civil. Society and, sicilians, it can be it's to really consider whether the bulk of art impact. In the world is going to be in an arena, like politics. Or if we were better off delegating. That to someone else and providing, our opinion. To other people, because, it could. Be that you know in the coming years is he reflects, on his tenure as Secretary, of Energy. Because. Of. Something. I. Was. Actually like oh when you mentioned, him I was I, kind of started thinking I think I hadn't researched Compton, before outside of scattering. For. Anyone who doesn't know it's like when photons. Will scatter off of electrons, and atoms does, everyone know this I don't know. So, I. Didn't. Realize before the fuzziness actually was the president of MIT so it makes me think that I don't really I'm. That's. Good point I have a parallel this guy is his brother, I wonder. Wow. I didn't really. Just. Physicists, one, of the all-time great MIT presidents, and. It. Makes apparently. He was a really good president, that's good he's, credible, max, with bringing great science to MIT okay, so, MIT. Had always had very good science but. Compton. Really embarks, on an effort to. Both. Train, and find. Truly. Fabulous science, so. MIT is positioned, frankly, in that, 1930s. Period when he's president, to me this unbelievably. Capable, institution, with these two. Sides of the story engineering. And science kind of unified here so I, would bring up that, as almost, almost, a counter to your point saying that maybe it depends on the time period not. Really the person because, I'm sure that Moniz, is like really awesome I'm sure he's very articulate. And he, is certainly very convi