The Business of Creativity Podcast. Ep 2: Creativity and Mental Health

ah hi this is the business of creativity [Music] [Applause] [Music] podcast [Music] hi welcome to the business of creativity podcast today it's episode 2 and we're looking at mental health and creativity i've got a very special guest and that's my sister amy amy has worked as an occupational therapist across a variety of mental health services over the past 13 years supporting adults and young people including in the forensic mental health care system she's recently moved into education working as a teaching assistant for young people who have been excluded from mainstream education many of whom have social emotional and mental health needs so join us on today's episode where we'll be looking at the role of creativity in mental health care hello amy and welcome to the show hello thank you how are you yes i'm fine thank you for joining me um so let's get started as you know the first question for the business of creativity podcast is to ask either your favorite film or your favorite book so i think we've decided today that we're going to go with your favorite film so tell us what it is okay my favorite film is lost in translation which actually i haven't watched for a little while but um yeah i i yeah i really enjoyed that film um [Music] i mean having been to japan as you know um just so many moments in that film that took me right back to my own visit there and so many things i could relate to yeah so i really enjoyed it for that side of things but um also just just a very sort of simple but moving story about connection and uh i think the two things combined just uh yeah made it a really a really good film for me yes i think didn't we go to the cinema together to watch that and i think maybe that was just before i moved to japan but i can't quite remember now but yeah it's it's a lovely story and um [Music] interesting fact so the other night i watched a film called in the mood for love which is a hong kong film and apparently that was the largest inspiration for sophia coppola's uh film lost in translation so similarities there that sort of very subtle um relationship between two people and uh yeah but lost in translation is an absolute classic it will never aid okay so um you know on the show we talk about how people uh use creativity in their work or how it features in their work so do you want to give people a little bit of background how creativity is featured in your career um well um i the back sort of a bit of a background on on my sort of work history then that's relevant um so um i used to work as an occupational therapist in mental health services um and so um the role of an occupational therapist is to um support people to recover from illness um it uses therapeutic activity it's about rehabilitation um and it the sort of the philosophy behind it is that um somebody who's healthy isn't necessarily simply symptom-free of an illness but they are um able to um carry out all the activities in their life that they need to do that they want to do um so that they have a sense that their meat life is meaningful purposeful um it it really um looks at the in the whole person the individual um patient as well um and looks at um yeah how to pick how to help people on their sort of recovery journey um so um within that work often we would as i say would use a lot of therapeutic activities with the individuals that we worked with um and they were you know a variety of activities but creativity was something that really featured you know very sort of strongly within the various um activities that were used and it could be anything from um creative writing um activities to do with music art pottery um gardening baking cooking um all sorts of different ways um to put people in touch with some creativity and um it's interesting uh one of the things that featured very heavily in my training was the idea of flow um so this state of flow that people get into when they're doing an activity um it's um it was a it was a term coined by a psychologist whose name it was mihaly chitsen harley if i've mispronounced that but um he recognized the benefits of getting into this flow state so where you find yourself doing an activity and you're just thoroughly absorbed in it absolutely um yeah so is that that is that being in the zone being absorbed by an activity um not really being aware of the time passing you're very much in the moment and in the activity and it gives you a sense of yeah being present being focused um and um and doing something i guess you know positive um so that was that was a really important feature of the sort of the activities that we use with people like i say often creative activities um we're very good for um inducing that sort of state of flow so because you've worked with a range of different types of patients haven't you so from adults uh and children but um and seriously seriously kind of ill people um sort of you know right up to the level of kind of schizophrenia um so you know you've sort of had you've seen quite of a variety of um situations and you've had to put that creativity um to use in various diff with in various different ways with a lot of different types of people yeah i mean i've worked with people who've prevented presented with all sorts of um difficulties challenges to their to their health and um often um people who've really struggled with um things such as motivation um obviously you know mood uh which you know impacts on motivation um and so um sometimes um i worked on a um an acute mental health award for a little while and and sometimes it was um something as simple as um taking coloring onto the ward for people to have a go at so when people are feeling very very low depressed often their motivation is very often they're self-confident their self-esteem is very low and trying to get around to do anything much can feel like a real battle for people sometimes so sometimes something just as simple as um as sitting with a person and doing some colouring i mean it sounds um in some ways it sounds like a very sort of basic almost childlike thing to do you know you think of colouring although having said that i think nowadays more and more we hear about this idea of mindful uh mindfulness yes i've seen the coloring books yeah and yes exactly and i think i think they're a great idea and i saw um the benefits of using something like that with with with the people that i worked with um like i say when motivation was very low confidence was very low um it was it was a simple activity um but again it was it was an activity that could just spark um um you know that that experience of being in flow um yeah which was which was great you know which was great for people to experience that yeah yeah but did did you find that people were very receptive to to you and to these types of activities you know when you were on these wards you know these people in very i mean some of these people were kind of sectioned weren't they i mean they were in this kind of serious situation did you find they were kind of receptive to all of this or were they quite reluctant in the beginning or maybe maybe reluctant in the beginning but then found that it was actually very helpful like how do people respond to being told you know we're going to try some of these creative activities maybe some of them were skeptical well we only ever encourage people and you know and everybody's different and um you know everyone has their preferences you know some some people it wouldn't be what would um capture their interest at all um and that's you know that that's fine and part of our work was to find the different things um that were important to the individual and that might help to sort of spark um some that sense of motivation or or um or so on um so you know always very different but yeah i mean there were plenty of people who um you know we had a lovely um we had a beautiful art room um at the hospital where i worked um and it was really just it was just a lovely space for people to be actually and you people didn't necessarily um have to you know the sessions that we ran it it wasn't that people had to come along you will come along to art and you will do some art uh one flew over the cuckoo's nest or watch the yeah or read the book yeah we've definitely moved on a long long way from that and um but what we had was you know with the art room it was just it was just a space for people to come along to um if even if they just wanted to have a cup of tea and maybe a little chat or even if they wanted to sit quietly it was a space and that was very um you know colorful and welcoming um and of course yeah we did have lots of people that we worked with who really enjoyed um the the activities and you know obviously you know i've met some very talented um people over the years um people that uh you know uh do some you know lovely artwork that's all i'd love to be had done but yeah so i think always um always trying to inspire that um sort of spark in people where we could and yeah based on what might um interest them yeah because i remember last week so i recorded episode one with the richard burger and um he gave this a great quote about um kind of it was something like when you feel like you're exposing too much of yourself um you're letting sort of too much too many of your emotions out then that's when you're really getting it right so and i could really get on board with that but i guess there are some people who do kind of celebrate this um this uh enjoyment that you can get from create creativity by sort of looking into all these thoughts and feelings and then bringing them out and sort of playing around with it whereas for some people you know they really couldn't imagine anything doing anything worse you know it's uh yeah some people like it enjoy it some people it's scary it can be very scary and they don't really necessarily want to kind of bring that sort of vulnerable side out or show too much emotion um yeah i mean i think that's absolutely true and you have to respect that don't you i think um you know creative activities can be um i think there's an inherent inherence of joy and creativity and um it it can allow people to express something of themselves um perhaps in in with things that they haven't been able to articulate before or just sometimes just i even things like going back to the coloring so just the rhythm of the doodles and the you know the up and down strokes of a paintbrush um i think there's you know something in that that can be you know really really helpful to people but yes uh when you express um you know some of what's kind of inside um it it can make you feel a bit bit vulnerable so you know for some people yeah the idea of um singing or um or or painting a picture or writing a a piece of creative writing it can yeah that can feel quite daunting so creativity creative activities are a are a brilliant um tool to use um where where people feel comfortable you know to to engage with that yeah and you and you have to take it at people's pace at people's own pace yeah yeah but i know that you've mentioned in the past about how far this has all come in the past hundred years um 100 years ago this idea of being in a hospital and setting up creative activities was probably pretty non-existent but thankfully things have moved on and i know you've mentioned before about sort of treating the person holistically instead of um you know perhaps um checking off symptoms yes yeah yeah so i guess from your perspective this is all positive and it's a sign of great progress in terms of working with people with who are experiencing mental um illness or you know difficulties yeah well you know i'm i'm sort of i'm fascinated by the by the health of um sorry about the history of mental health issues of of the systems um and yeah there have been massive changes even the short time that i've worked in mental health services they've been changes and occupational therapy uh i mean the the the root of that has always it's very much been about um there's always this emphasis on getting and encouraging patients to use their hands to be active and to be doing and to be productive and constructive um with the idea that that that would help to sort of bring about um positive change and i think um it was around i think around um sort of world war ii um the occupational therapists were sort of you know to begin to work with people in this way although they weren't the first people to work with people in this world um you know even before that there was this you know move towards more humane treatment you know you think about a couple of hundred years ago and there and you know you hear about the sort of the well the abuse that took place in the in the you know quote lunatic asylums and um but but there was always this gradual move towards you know treating people in a very humane way and more holistic way and occupational therapy was was very much on board with that yeah and yeah if my history is correct um sort of started to really flourish around the era of kind of the of world war ii so okay yeah yeah it's interesting um and as for your own uh career uh i know sort of now you've moved from occupational uh health occupational therapy and now you're in sort of more of the education sector so just tell us a little bit about what you're doing at the moment so um yeah i've taken a little bit of a side step and from um mental health services um or at least nhs mental health services into education so i'm now working as a teaching assistant teaching and predominantly english and to students in alternative provisions students who have been excluded from mainstream school and who typically have um social emotional mental health needs so yeah really enjoying this as a new um phase of my career and uh enjoying uh yeah i mean english teaching english has given plenty of opportunity to to put creativity into practice yeah good students and how are they responding to all of this uh you know enjoying the sessions with you well you'd have to ask them but well again it's a very individual thing because you know i mean i you know i love the writing i love the reading you know literature and all of that and but again it comes down to preference and for some people yeah they're really on board with it and other people are a bit reticent and you know perhaps their memories of being at school is um you know having having to read a particular text and really not being able to relate to it and i mean unfortunately you know it it happens that way sometimes doesn't it i remember back to my school days when you know there might be texts i just think name one name one text i bet i know which it is that makes you think never again yeah i think we both know what it is i think the one the one text that i just couldn't i just couldn't get into was that james joyce is a portrait of the artist to be as a young man yeah i just yeah it just just really wasn't for me i mean it's been a long time since i've read it so you never know these change don't they yeah yeah yeah um so who knows if i was to venture back to to that one what i'd make of it now but um but yeah so for some students um you know even the thought of you know creative writing is it it is difficult sometimes that there is what they kind of associate with that and again i think it comes back to i think in the sort of a i mean i i teach one to one but i think for some people as well perhaps there's an association of being in a class of 30 and having to read aloud or having to share having to share your thoughts and your ideas yeah it's really really scary because it's scary enough for the average person someone who doesn't have that confidence necessarily you know to to speak yeah yeah yeah there's that fear of and i think you know especially for younger people sometimes that fear of um your peers laughing at you or judging you judging your ideas and so so it can be yeah it can be um quite scary in that respect but um you know obviously i always try to make it as fun as i can for people and again i think you know taking a person's pace if if someone's really not comfortable with with um doing a piece of writing then you have to sort of look at that and and work around it or adjust things and because like i said i think great creativity as a tool can be really useful for some people when it's used in the right way yeah yeah because i guess you know another totally different thing would be for sports some people you know some young people can totally get on board with that um so everyone sort of has their different area but everybody probably enjoys that feeling of being absorbed in something and so for some people it might be creative activities such as writing and for others it could be something like sport um but it's like we all sort of need some kind of passion to follow don't we and yes again it comes back to the idea i think about um you know um feeling that you um you have a purpose um that you can find meaning in something i think those things are fundamental to to positive mental health yeah waking up in the morning feeling that you've got a purpose feeling that your life is is is meaningful uh yeah i think those things are are really important and yeah yeah different different people find different ways of of achieving that that sort of sense yeah yeah um so you know we've spoken a lot about sort of very um specific issues so you've worked in what you would call is it the forensic forensic mental health um sort of with very serious cases and you've also worked or you are working in education with young people who are experiencing um emotional uh social um difficulties but if we just think about on a general level now uh just for you know uh people kind of watching this show um thinking about you know in our daily lives how can we um preserve improve and maintain our mental well-being um well i think there's you know there's um there's all sorts of different ways isn't there and i think it's very much um you know again it's such an individual thing and um you know mental health is sort of so wrapped up in experience and um yeah it's such a it's such a unique and individual um thing really and so i think what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other and it's about finding i think you've got to i think developing self-awareness is really important and learning about um what works for you what doesn't work with work for you a bit of a little bit of trial and error and what do you mean by self-awareness well i think you know going back to the example i don't know if perhaps being in school when for a long portion of your life as a child you're sort of told what's good for you and um you sort of learn about yourself um perhaps through the messages that you hear from your peers or your teachers i think developing that self developing that understanding of yourself um you know who am i in the world and what makes me feel good about myself and how do i look after myself yes trying to look after other people as well and attend to responsibilities but um yeah having that sense of you know who who who am i and and what do i need um to have um a good state of sort of mental health and and yeah and i think you you will you might find that in moments of creativity or certainly you know like we say other activities that give you that those moments of flow of being very present um you know there's so much talk nowadays about mindfulness the importance of being present in a world where often our attention is often sort of divided between you know many different things yeah um so i think i think it can be useful for anyone to spend a little bit of time to just reflect on um yeah who they are and what they need to keep themselves well yeah yeah i mean i know we've spoken sort of in our um in our case i know we both like uh creative writing i know you do a lot of writing in your um free time and i think we've both spoken about the fact that um sort of our characters we we have a tendency for overthinking a lot of rumination i was i i was speaking to our friend the other day actually about this and she was saying exactly the same thing like ruminating like you finish the day at work and she finds herself ruminating on things that have happened worrying about it and i think we've sort of spoken about this that it sort of can be excessive sometimes and and the great thing about creative writing is that perhaps where you've been putting that energy into kind of rumination and excessive kind of um thinking overthinking like if you can just channel that into something a bit healthier for example creative writing which allows you to sort of pick at things analyze things work out things you know process your thoughts and details like if you can channel that into like a good um activity that that can be very helpful yeah i mean um you know there are certain thinking styles that are you know particularly associated with things such as you know low mood um anxiety and um yeah rumination is often tied in with some of those things and i think sometimes you have to ask yourself as well if you find yourself ruminating over something like that um you know such as work or whatever it might be is asking yourself you know you know what's going on there and how am i feeling what's what's happening for me but yeah for me personally um i find creative writing a very uh a very constructive way of of managing um that particular style of thinking which i yeah which is def i can definitely find myself you know caught up in that a lot but i think there's something about creative writing where i think first of all it helps me to um yeah express kind of what the the contents of that and begin to organize it so that it starts to feel that it makes a bit more sense that it's a bit more manageable and i think there's something lovely for me as well again about creative writing that it doesn't matter what difficulties i might be experiencing it's there's something about writing which makes it that i um i can start to write about it but it's almost like i'm playing with ideas i'm playing with language and it becomes something really fun actually i um about i wrote a little story about um it was a bit like the mr men box i i always enjoyed reading the mystery books to my children um but it was a little bit like that and i would write characters for particular feelings and there was one called mr pemberton pickle who um was always in a pickle and because he was stuck in a dilemma and he was full of anguish and so it's sort of talking about it was you know it's talking about this experience that we often have where we find ourselves in some kind of dilemma you know there's no good solution to the problem and we don't know what to do and that anguish can feel awful and quite overwhelming at times and you're like oh what should i do and there's something about sort of writing it into it into a story of it of a little fictional character um and then for me it makes it it just makes it um perhaps give me a bit of space from the feeling or helps me to frame things in a slightly different way which i think again for me personally is is a helpful is a helpful thing to do yeah yeah okay well i have seen some examples of your writing and it certainly seems like it's working out well for you so yes we look forward to seeing more so right well we're coming up to about 30 minutes now so we'll wrap it up for today but thank you very much for joining me and thanks for giving this insight into creativity and how that's featured in your career sort of in in mental health um you know it's just fantastic that you can have this this career these jobs where you know you're able to you know have such a positive influence on people's lives um well i mean yeah i feel very privileged i feel very privileged to be in that position and i yeah i really enjoy it yeah so i you know and with your new sort of uh job in education i hope that uh all all works out but i'm sure the kids will very much enjoy amy dickens's mentoring and children and maybe even get to write stories yes some mr men inspired stories with you yeah you can't go okay bye [Music]

2021-06-29 20:42

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