Global Macro Trading in 2022 with Raoul Pal
sponsored by step finance your go to d5 portfolio manager on solana luna if you're just getting into bitcoin it's the perfect place to start hey guys anna welcome back to another episode of the lay higher plan show today we are talking all things crypto we're talking about the markets because who really knows where we're at right now maybe my guest will so as usual this is powered by the vc firm icon plus capital and it is also sponsored by block fight if you're interested there is a link in the description and in the comments section you can get around 250 when you sign up and they offer amazing interest rates so let's kick things off joining me today is rao powell he's the founder and ceo of global macro investor and of real vision let's bring rao on how you doing ral i'm great how are you i'm good thank you i'm good it's been a while since we last chatted so balance so i lost you then you froze can you hear me okay yeah i can now okay perfect how are things going on down in the cayman islands what do you do all day there me i'm just 14 hours of meetings all day on zoom so i am crazy busy apart from the weekends because every weekend is a caribbean holiday wow it sounds pretty amazing i've never been i'd have to check it out one day um white sand beaches turquoise clear warm water it sounds like you're living the life but ralph can we please get a portfol a portfolio update before we go into this i know you're constantly switching up changing your holdings you know you're bullish on different metaverse coins nfts one moment you're all in on bitcoin now i know not now can we get a portfolio update i actually don't change my portfolio often at all so the only answer okay i did is i started in 2020 all in on bitcoin then i started shifting towards ethereum then i bought a basket which included a bunch of metaverse plays some social tokens some um layer ones other stuff and i basically kept that so i don't think i've traded anything apart from buying some nfts um and then yeah i the only other major switch was i got i sold most of my bitcoin for ethereum um about six nine months ago yeah okay so probably i'm probably still 85 percent each and then 15 other stuff see even i think that is huge all that youth but we'll get into it before we do um i want to know your opinion on earth happened at the end of last year we were all sort of expecting this super cycle um and we didn't quite get it what happened i think two things happened first firstly price got ahead of network activity so what happened was people weren't there weren't there wasn't a lot of new transactions in the network either value transacted wasn't going up and the number of new wallets or active wallets wasn't going up so price went up and the network didn't and it didn't stick and the issue was inflation so why does inflation matter well because the cryptos still a retail network right it's really driven by retail and if you've raised prices on people and wages don't go up as much they've got less discretionary income that discretionary income was the dollar cost averaging that went into crypto and so people stopped because they had to pay their grocery bills or their rent so that's why it just stopped so it shows how macroeconomics influences crypto markets in ways that people don't quite yet understand but that was the big that was the big thing that happened end of last year and has continued to weigh on the market this year because network growth hasn't really improved so we've seen rotations within the market so we saw people switching from each to layer ones and we saw nfts hold their value you know stuff as people are reallocating what they've got in the market generally reallocating eth um you know a lot of bitcoin people you know tend to stick with bitcoin um but a lot of the eth people reallocated different parts of eth like you know nfts particularly got a lot of attention you make an interesting point about inflation because a lot of people sort of say oh you know inflation's up and so the market's going to go because people are going to be moving to bitcoin um bitcoin's down today inflation apparently is at new record highs today eight and a half percent um in the us so where do you think we're at with the market right now it's a bit of a confusing situation um we can talk about cycles in a minute but where specifically do you think we're at with the market the balance of probabilities is that we made the low last year we retested the low this year and i think the low is in but who the hell really knows right so you know i got the back end of last year wrong like everybody else i thought you know we were going to get this run and and we didn't see it i think we've thrown a war eight and a half percent inflation the fed raising interest rates all at crypto um we've thrown chinese ban we've thrown so much at it and it didn't make a new low kind of usually that's a signal the market kind of has found its its bottom and so now we're looking for okay what are the upside catalysts the upside catalyst would be if economic growth starts slowing um we're likely to see then long duration assets things that um tend to outperform in low growth environments and crypto tends to very well in in that kind of environment much like kathy woods arc does those kind of you know longer term assets so that's what we're looking for um as the spark i think is a is a change in structure so people fear inflation less and stop fearing growth more yeah and i think it's interesting to see how you mention china there and the market seems to be quite desensitized at this point to all the fud that comes out of china um you know which is incredibly bullish for the the maturity of the market but a lot of a lot i've been watching a lot of content online and people like willy woo for example sort of say that this idea of these four year cycles driven by bitcoins halving is over i personally don't know where i stand on that so where do you sound on that do you think these four year cycles are over given how much institutional money we now have flowing into it uh yeah i think it's over because the market is much larger than it was and bitcoin is not as dominant so at the margin the four year cycle will have an impact but not as large an impact you know for example the 2.0 thing is going to create a potential dynamic that's different so um i think i think the cycles have changed and i think you know over time these very volatile trends get less volatile and we saw that with amazon in its early days it was like up and down 95 percent then 65 percent and then just gets less and less and less because more people are in the network so it's the same with crypto now you know there's there's 600 million people 300 million people using it now so what's happening is the volatility dampened so you know the i think the new down 85 percent is the new down 50 is the down 50 where we are now so it's kind of like we've had a bear market we've been in a bear market for a year you know could it go down 65 possibly but you know it's unlikely to go down 85 percent people have a very recency bias and they only unders they only know what they know and people who've been in the bitcoin market have only been around you know a network adoption model for a decade so they've only seen a few cycles but if you go to facebook amazon google they've all had these for decades and you can see how they work and they tend to lower volatility over time so you don't think we'd necessarily have to wait an entire four years with that cold cold winter until we see a new all-time high no no i don't it's possible but i don't think it's the most likely outcome now i think you know we just need the macro environment to shift a bit um and we've got different players in the market and it's a much deeper market there now than it used to be by the way i think there's a little bit of a delay between your nights probably on my end yeah it's on my end so don't worry about it i'll just wait a little bit until you'll finish explaining um i was actually just at the bitcoin conference which was amazing by the way so many interesting speakers um and there was some very fascinating announcement one particular um announcement actually caught my eye it was the news that strike is partnering with ncr and shopify so what do you think this means for the crypto market i've seen a lot of people say that uh sorry i lost you again there your stream is a bit patchy um i think overall this is all great um using bitcoin as a payment rail now whether it's was you know i don't think it massively helps the bitcoin network because the use of slots on the blockchain is relatively limited and how um lightning works but it allows it to use um to create faster payment rails for certain things because let's face it most people the purpose of bitcoin is not to buy your goods or certainly not now maybe in 20 or 30 years time the purpose of bitcoin right now is to hold it um and you know as a store of value and the last thing you want to do is is buy something um you know some everyday grocery on it because it doesn't make sense because the expected future return is so high so but using blockchain rails and and bitcoin rails to power a payment system i think is great and it's a fantastic development and the work that uh jack is doing and all of this is fantastic news but i don't think it's it's it only at the margin drives active addresses or value exchange which are the two things that drive the value of of bitcoin itself and i know you're bullish on ethereum and really just the um you know web 3 the metaverse the crypto industry sort of as a whole and if you don't think people are gonna want to spend their bitcoin um simply because you know it's bitcoin it's gold 2.0 how do you see the future of payments then what are people going to be transacting and do you think we really will come off the dollar and be transacting on some form of cryptocurrency well the entire web 3 world currently transacts on um ethereum everything's priced in ethereum everything in the metaverse is priced in ethereum does that mean that that stays that way who the hell knows you know i'm no ethereum maximalist i don't know but right now that's where it is you know every nft is basically pricing ethereum some are now being priced in solana so we don't really know i don't think the dollar goes away for a long long time um you know that the dollar is so deeply entrenched it is the largest network of anything on earth pretty much and that's hard to get rid of but at the margin does crypto take over more of the payment system in this digital world for sure and different things i think you know i think one of the best examples of the use of bitcoin for example has been what uh terra has done using it as collateral i always said it's fantastic collateral it's actually not great for payments um yes um you know the lightning network can solve different things of that but really is collateral it's fantastic and that's what terra have done it's a great idea and that we will see more of that this is only the start of i think people using bitcoin as the collateral layer also we'll see as opposed to central banks using it we'll definitely see sovereign wealth funds um owning bitcoin because it's a long duration savings asset so it works perfectly for them so those i think are the bigger developments that will develop for the bitcoin ecosystem over time um in terms of payments we don't really know yet stable coins i think are still in their infancy so that's the dollar winning out still because stable coins are dollars but for a pure web three worlds we've seen that is currently uh the king of that so the internet is pretty rough i just caught the last bit of what you were saying um in terms of being you know the the main driver of that web 3 world um but i'm still interested in i'm still interested in you know the growth of the lightning network um and whether you think there's any possibility that just because it is growing so much and we are seeing what's happening with strike we could start to see um ethereum perhaps be made redundant in some in some way do you think that's just an absolute impossibility it's what i hear from bitcoin maxis quite a lot they're just different things i i just don't know i mean we don't care if i'm sending you a pound or a dollar we don't care what network it goes on whether it goes on some ethereum layer 2 or a bitcoin layer 2 we don't really care so i think we'll be sending money whatever money over all sorts of different networks and the more interoperable this world gets the more we don't care you just want your money sent to you immediately um so we're not you know stripes not really about sending bitcoin around it's about sending dollars using blockchain rails so it's much quicker dollars or euros or pounds same as bottle pay do as well um that's now owned by um nydig so i think that's good and i don't think there's it's not competition amongst blockchains i think different people can offer different solutions it's essentially creating a you know like a stable coin element of being able to move money around fast and that's great i definitely agree with you um i generally take a maxi position other than um being a freedom maxi but that's another conversation um so what would you say it is then because this sounds so obvious but what would you say if people don't un um and solana what are they missing what are they missing when it comes to ethan solana they're they're confusing what bitcoin is and trying to impose that onto something else it's like saying well the dog doesn't look like a cat and it doesn't purr therefore it's a useless cat yeah well it's a dog it's as simple as that ethereum is just not the store of valley now ethereum maxis will say well you know it's going to be this ultra hard currency i don't really care big point is a better solution for that because of its um further decentralization and security of the network so it does a perfect job ethereum is not trying to be that ethereum is trying to be the open internet you know the the web three the the the new layer so again i think they interact together and i think bitcoin is this collateral base layer right now it's not being used as collateral and ethic is being uh is being used as collateral but ether has been used as a lot of collateral for all of d5 um and eth staking does that um but that's what and solana is just a faster cheaper version of ethereum and it's less uh it's less decentralized so that's a trade-off and that's okay too and i don't go oh my god solana why should that exist it's ridiculous it exists because people want cheaper and faster and and they they don't care about the maximum decentralization bitcoin people care about the maximum decentralization monero people care about about the um privacy they're all different use cases they're all just different technologies for different things and and that's okay i just don't see why there's an argument over well why can't b well ethereum's not bitcoin no it was never supposed to be yeah that's the thing i always say you know you said people dislike the fact that um by ethereum max is just being promoted as this hard money decentralized you know truly decentralized hard money store of value um so i guess maybe perhaps that's sort of where the the tribalism comes in i'm not sure um but i do have a couple of things anybody who's extreme in any point of view is always going to rile somebody else up you won't roll somebody else up if you just say look you know we can all coexist and they're all fine and everybody's got a good use case and and the market will decide in the end i mean that's it that's all there is to it it's true the market does decide because ultimately i think you know when it comes to mass adoption people will prefer um people will prefer convenience over everything else right so you know how how cheap is this and how fast is this i don't care i'm not i i do care how decentralized it is but others may not care how decentralized yeah but if you're a sovereign wealth fund who needs to store you know 20 billion dollars of bitcoin or of of of an asset then you're gonna prefer bitcoin maybe because of how much security you've got versus other networks you might take eth as well because it's pretty decentralized you know in the in the realm of decentralization it's very decentralized and it has a yield coming soon so you know i can see those two assets being on balance sheets but bitcoin is more likely to just by the nature of what it is yeah i want to move on actually just a little bit to the idea of tokenization because i know you're pretty bullish on it um they have exploded tokens and nfts have exploded over the last year um things seem to have calmed down a little bit um the floor price of my nft for example has totally just dropped i didn't sell at the right time i'm terrible at selling um so i'd love to get your opinion then what is the future of nft's like what is their place in the world um specifically though because you know how we look at bitcoin and we go yeah that's the sort of value ethereum yep you're the internet specifically specifically nft is the ability to have any contract unique contract exchangeable storable and recordable every single contract that is a concert ticket that is a contract for you to turn up and the band to play that will go on nfts it is the contract between you and an artist i want to hold your art and i want the rights to your art that is a contract it will be for insurance contracts we've seen it in defy nfts are the massive enabler to attach digital things onto a blockchain and exchange the value now what nfts don't do is scale because they're unique by nature non-fungible tokens and that's why social tokens come in because these are the fungible elements of the same thing so let's say you're a giant pop star you issue a bunch of nfts they could be music rights they could be photographs they could be concert tickets there could be all sorts of things but you might have a social token which is the system of money within your network and so that's really where this is going and nfts have very specific use cases and we're just seeing the beginning of it so annoyingly i missed the last bit of what you just said can you just go back a little bit i'm so sorry about the sexual token yeah so so social tokens are the currency for these large communities so we've seen board yacht club is a bunch of nfts yuga labs bunch of nfts crypto punks board 8 yacht club me bits but they've just launched the social token which is now allows it to scale amongst a much larger community it becomes the operating system of money for that community so um that is really important that nfts themselves are the core assets within that community and again it can be a contract or it can be an asset itself these are really big concepts and um you know i think people should listen to my interview with punk 6529 that i did on real vision crypto which is free so just get a real vision crypto.com it's a two and a half hour interview with probably well easily the best thinker in the entire space and what this actually means and why it's so important that we will not have a decentralized web 3 future without nfts being mass adoption same with social tokens that has to happen what is the value though in somebody like me for example buying a form of social token a celebrities token what is the direct value what do i gain from it well it depends whether the celebrity and the community drive you value itself so it's about the utility of that token and what you get from it so if you get let's say it's a big celebrity there's a big network it's vibrant and you get first rights for concert tickets you know things that always sell out you get first right to merchandise you get to connect to other fans you get rights to have meet and greets you get the ability to be able to invest in the ip of songs you get all these benefits from being part of the community much like you live in the uk that your social token is the british pound that gives you a right to operate within the british system you can shop within a store there you can't shop with dollars or euros you have you know this is what currencies do they enable the system that you live in to operate yeah i see this absolutely happening um it's just going to be one of those slow growths and one thing which really caught my eye is um you tweeted to elon musk suggesting that twitter implement a token system a bit like reddit so the first red flag there for me was what about the sec isn't that going to be security how do how would we even make that happen from a regulatory standpoint if you give it away it's not a security what do you mean give it away you airdrop it to the users okay according to use so if you are a heavy user you get given tokens if you are beneficial to the network you get given tokens so then what happens is you get given tokens exactly as the ape token did and then it establishes a price so you have not sold anything to anybody therefore it is not a security and why would you and why would you not just have what we currently have use one of the assets that we have whether it's ethereum whether it's doge whether it's bitcoin why would we have to create something new because it it is therefore specifically used for that community and so what you're doing is you can create some form of walled garden ways you say if you operate within this community you earn this now if you're in the uk and your employer says well i don't pay you in any currency you can't pay your taxes you can't go to the supermarket you know because you've got yen in your bank account don't work now can you use bitcoin for incentivisational money of course but you get more flexibility if you've got your own currency which is why all governments have their own currencies as opposed to adopting a single currency in europe we've got a single currency but amongst a bunch of nations and we you know we will see similar interactions between different communities but it means that the therefore the platform is able to issue because if they use bitcoin who pays for that bitcoin if i'm going to air drop it to lair for being a great participant on twitter i now have to go and buy bitcoin and give it to you but if i create my own token it doesn't cost me anything you can accumulate tokens and we can create an ecosystem that you can exchange these tokens so all these people who came at me on twitter say well you should just use the lightning network i'm like you're missing the point it's who's going to pay to give the 300 million twitter users money i'm sorry it doesn't work that way what it is is a behavioral incentive reward system that you build value from and if you don't it shows the network's not good and you've not created value or utility and you should be able to earn them by let's say you tweet a lot you get high engagement even you don't have to be the biggest user but your engagement's high therefore maybe you should be given more tokens and those tokens maybe allow you to spend it on something else within the platform or use it for advertising promotion of your own network or whatever it is and so then maybe goods and services can be transacted on twitter for those tokens and then what will happen is the automatic market makers will allow you to take those tokens off and exchange them for pounds dollars bitcoin eth whatever you want and if too much money leaves the ecosystem it's telling you you're not adding enough value to the ecosystem so the network's not good it's as simple as that you sell stuff that's not useful you keep stuff that's useful yeah so it's all about essentially maintaining a very healthy ecosystem i can see that because if you don't the value goes down which is the genius behind all of these things is if you destroy your network by uh destroying your community or the value of that community your token goes down so it it incentivizes the community to create a vibe a vibrant ecosystem so what do you think about the idea of a currency of the internet having one currency that we use all over the world and we don't have any of those annoying cross-border payments and things like that just one crypto why do you need to it just sounds more convenient rather than having to go in and out of different ways i can switch my i can switch i can make your bitcoin payment from my eat swap it instantaneously at zero cost it kind of doesn't matter it's the old fiat world where if i'm switching from cayman islands dollars to pounds because i need to send you 50 quid it's a nightmare takes three days costs a fortune but this new world that's gone away now will one currency be larger than others over time probably which one will it be i've no idea but stable coins have actually made the dollar very useful because now i can send you a stable coin in seconds yeah so you know again people are just always looking at it through one lens without saying what are you trying to solve we're trying to solve instant payment system for starters well stablecoin sold that really well now if the answer is well i don't want fears well fine then you've got the choice you can have you know bitcoin you can have ethereum you can have solana whatever you want it depends whether the other person accepts it and if they don't then you've got an automated market maker like uniswap he'll automatically swap it into a different currency for you instantaneously at almost no cost so it kind of works pretty well i would have loved to have seen you debate someone at the bitcoin conference um i you know i don't it's difficult to debate people who don't want to who don't want to open their minds to the fact that you can be liberal in your opinions and you can change them over time as things change and there's nothing wrong with thinking that bitcoin is the only solution for you absolutely fine why do i care and but they seem to care if anybody else doesn't think that and that's holds true of any maximus of anything same in religions it doesn't make sense you know basically we all go to a bar we socialize with each other we shouldn't care what religion you're in what crypto you're in but for some reason it seems to matter so much to people um and i get it they want to be proponents for their own network and they want their network to survive i get that and that is a good part of the space but it doesn't have to be one thing fits all yeah i mean i just think from conversations that i had the mentality is they think everything else is dangerous and a scam well anything else attention is essentially um i don't know if you can hear me i think it's frozen um giving giving it giving anything else attention is essentially um is essentially taking them away from the best type of money which would allow society and humanity to flourish that is their opinion and they're entitled to that opinion but you can't force somebody to have your opinion if not you're doing what the missionaries did which was go and go into countries and force people to take a religion on by coercion that's not the way the way should be by proving allowing bitcoin to flourish and prove that it is better over time but that is not the way it goes and this idea that everything's a scam so one of the one of the things that the bitcoin has held was in a bear market bitcoin is the only one that survives and everything else goes to zero since the bear market ethan's outperformed and i'm not saying that as an ethmax i'm not i don't give a [ __ ] what currency what works over time i literally don't care um i would care for the whole space that's what i care about i really care about this whole space um but the point is ethel performed so it's like huh that's not the narrative the narrative is they all get exposed in a bear market it's all narrative and it's not true it's just simply not true is bitcoin what is true is bitcoin the most decentralized strongest most robust network yes true is it the only answer to everything absolutely categorically no which leads me on my next topic actually um i want to get into web 3 because you've probably said that um web 3 bitcoin and ethel will change every business model i really want to understand how and what that means for content creators like me because i you know i'm putting the interview out on and put interview out on youtube so will i have to migrate to a different platform will there be just one platform what does it mean i think that all platforms will adopt it and i've spoken to a lot of people at youtube and i've spoken to a lot of people at meta and all of this i think they understand where this is going and i think that they understand that leia needs to be in charge of our own audience and therefore doesn't need a third party advertiser you may choose to but you also don't want your eyeballs necessarily monetized without sharing some of the economics of that which you do somewhat but not a lot of and the ability for you to be rewarding fans with tokens and digital assets for your super fans and be able to engage with them on these platforms is going to drive the land network bigger and more vibrant so now you're working directly for your fans right now all you get is engagement so you look at your twitter numbers you look at youtube numbers that's all you're getting and in exchange you're getting a share of the ad revenue from google nothing from twitter and you're getting um sponsorship revenue because you've got reach but if you're in charge of your own sovereign state of liar and you you do it that way where you've got your own system of tokens nfts you give people access to you so you can have you know 100 people on a zoom call together and they get to talk to you once every month and given different layers of access that becomes web 3 where the community owns a share of their community so they're working with the influencer right now i watch you on youtube i'm being served ads for the privilege of watching it why should that be now again ads aren't inherently evil what's evil is the fact that we're all getting monetized and nobody's getting a share of it or a significant share in it and we can change that via web three where where communities participate in the networks much like in bitcoin you hold a bitcoin and you're now a network participant and you're incentivized to grow the network which is why people get very passionate about it well if your fans were interested in growing your network and they wanted and they were going to get financial benefit from doing so well that digital marketing explodes it changes everything so this is why it's going to change every business model because if you think about a fashion brand nike or adidas or anybody they pay so much in marketing costs they're paying to google they're paying to facebook they're paying in newspapers they're paying to billboards they're paying to conferences they're paying paying paying now if you tokenize that community you can get rid of all of that layer of costs and get your audience or your community members to promote your products for you because they're going to be incentivizing on tick tock and make videos about them or make youtube content or tweets about it because the more people who buy the product and come into the network the more valuable the network becomes because the network gets a share of it so let's say you're a music fan and you buy a token in rihanna's new album and you buy the fractionalized part of one song the ip for the first three months so you're now going to go on tick tock all day and try and promote that one song if that song becomes a hit you'll make a money from it so that sports that the pop star now does not have to pay for marketing she's not paying google and facebook they're not doing anything the the members are doing it because they're incentivized to do it much like everybody in the bitcoin network is incentivized to get people on board into bitcoin because the value of bitcoin goes up fast donating um i understand again it's about creating that economy and that i'm saying i understand it's really interesting it's about creating that economy and that ecosystem um that's going to take some time to get to i think um but what i don't understand is like how it looks practically because i keep you know i think it'll take some time to get to i don't think so all of this space is moving much faster than you can ever possibly imagine so i'm working on this space a lot of people are this is what nfts are nfc is exploded onto the screen you know onto the scene right they're coming so fast this space is growing the crypto space overall is growing at 137 a year and the internet back at roughly the same stage was growing at 65 a year it is twice the speed i see this many times people that understand what i'm talking about twice the speed of the internet in terms of adoption so if it's growing 137 a year now we're at 300 million users we're at six or seven hundred million users this time next year we're at one and a half billion users the year after now that will happen at scale because of what these giant communities are going to do the giant communities being fashion brands music sports um film franchises tv all of this they're all coming into these new business models so on a practical standpoint though how's it going to look because i keep hearing people say um you know you it's really you own your it's really simple on here you will get paid into your wallet for participating in the communities that you belong to so maybe there's a beauty brand you're involved in that you really like that you think is really cool and maybe there's a a bunch of influencers you're involved in some music and bitcoin right so maybe those are your cultural things and maybe a fashion brand that you love as well right and you're part of the community you're helping promote it you're doing stuff you want to be involved you have the tokens on your phone and these are like universal basic equity because you're earning them by being a a person in the network who's doing good for the community and so you've got a bunch of these things that are valuable that you've not had to pay for in many circumstances you may want to buy more because you really believe in it but you may get awarded them so you're getting free money for being a good community member and helping drive those networks and they'll all be on your mobile phone and then you will be able to spend them either within that network or exchange them outside of that network for other things so it's a world of having multiple currencies for multiple things like when you go on holiday to spain you have to use euros and if you go on holiday to australia you need aussie dollars so you are leaving one community going to another and you use their currency it's the same but we're going down to smaller currencies but in terms of platforms are we saying like twitter's still going to exist will youtube exist or will there just be one platform no it'll be across everywhere now does it mean that meta screw it up and get it wrong and people leave possibly do twitter adopt this fast enough who knows it's bloody hard to build a new twitter because there's 300 million people using all day so the most likely outcome is twitter say we're going to integrate this world which is why i tweeted elon musk because this is where they're going to have to go if they want hyper engagement if they don't want to sell ads and they want to create a reward system that makes twitter a better place because therefore if you're a bad network participant then the value of the network goes down so it stops people destroying networks so it's going to be across all platforms you won't even notice it it'll just be part of what you do much like you go into this financial world and suddenly you own shares and all of these things now they're on different stock exchanges you can use different brokerages they already care you've got to share an apple you've got sharing you know facebook whatever it is so it's it's that world it's a multi-asset world that operates across different chains that are and we can transfer the assets from one to the other back it cut out a little bit but i i got what you said um this internet is not good i need to get this sorted um yeah no i think i think it's been really fascinating um i want to just move on a little bit um and talk about um more to do with regulation um we're sort of not really sure what's going on right now i know that you're a big advocate for mass adoption only being able to happen with regulation um sort of a regulation being inevitable um so how is this all going to move forward with um regulation and you know sec we sort of touched on that they've made it really clear and i said this ages ago gary genzer came out all guns blazing and said we want to ban everything everything's terrible that is classic negotiation tactics you start with the hardest line first and you try and negotiate to the center and you try and keep it a bit on your side so he tried to go in hard he hasn't even got the mandate the cftc haven't got the mandate nobody's got the mandate yet so they're trying to do this um this cross-governmental um um policy committee to do this but what they've said is yeah we get it it's real it's happening and we have to work with it so it's exactly playing out as i said it would is they will reach a decent compromise they will have to rewrite some laws like the securities laws and the howie test over time because they'll realize it's not going to work and if the u.s wants to be a world leader they have to change that europe doesn't have a howie test europe has other issues however you know and so people are going to figure this out over time and the uk made a great statement of what they're trying to do they've said yep we get it web 3 is coming stable coins are part of the economy we think they're good uh we understand that that the world is changing and we're going to allow this to happen and we'll have a like light touch regulation best we can and we're going to be adaptive so we know the space is moving so there's no point trying to regulate it with an iron fist now let's see how it goes everyone's going to do that it's too big you can't have it you know as i said by next year there's 700 million people using this what are you going to do just suddenly say no it's just not going to happen so all it is is them being comfortable that they get their share of taxes yes and the shenanigans aren't going on that's all it is and we make it you know everyone's you know shaking their fists screaming at each other but that's all they really care about is please don't destroy our own system of money uh try not to hide money from bad things and that's basically it and then we continue as normal i totally agree yeah and this space just keeps growing super fast because because they accept it you mentioned stable coins um and i actually want to ask you about that where do you see stable coins playing out um in in the global there we go we're back sorry what can i do right my question was cbdc's versus stable coins the uk has made it clear and i think the fed has made it pretty clear they're both going to probably coincide and operate with each other what i think seems to be moving towards is the central banks will have their own version so let's say they want to have hand out stimulus you can give it directly to people's wallets maybe and maybe the government has a wallet of which you pay your taxes from or whatever but you'll have private wallets private cbd private stable coins i think they're accepting that technology moves too fast to not use existing rails that the private sector has built i think they're all going to come to that solution singapore got to that solution too i think india's coming to that solution that they're gonna have to use all sorts of different uh existing blockchain rails now what blockchains they're built on who knows nobody cares um you know they will just be built on different things and you know people hate it but a bunch of stuff will get built on you know xrp a bunch of stuff will get built on on some layer of eats some will get built on you know cosmos nobody cares as long as i can send you the dollar well i'm going to leave it there because the wi-fi is too tough um but i want to thank you so much it's been such a pleasure um it's always really fascinating to talk about um web3 in the metaverse because that's something that i i know is inevitable but i struggle to fully um you know understand um so i really appreciate you taking the time and also just dealing with the wi-fi it's been a bit hectic not at all not at all i hope i didn't rile too many people up by being wildly liberal um in uh in the space but you know just it's an exciting place and we just let it develop as it develops yeah absolutely hopefully i'll catch up with you again um when the wi-fi is a little bit better because i still have a few more questions but i'll leave with that for now i want to thank you so much for coming on and thank you everyone for joining we'll see you next time take care thanks
2022-04-17 04:18
