Building healthy technology (Google I/O '18)
Well. Good morning and, welcome. To building, healthy technology. An. Inspiration. Session on digital well-being. I'm. Maggie Jackson I'm, the author of distracted, a book, about the fragmentation. Of, focus and the. Ways. We can recapture our attention, today I'm, a journalist, by background and a former Boston, Globe columnist, and, joining. Me is on, my left is Adam alter he, is a NYU, professor in, marketing, in psychology, and writes. Widely, for the media and, has. Written most recently a book called, irresistible. About behavioral. Addiction, in our society, and tech. Influences, as well. Joining. Me on the stage is Glenn Murphy he's, the director of UX. Chrome. And. He. Has been a creative force behind many. Android, products. From Android, auto and TV and. Behind. A, creative, force in the digital, well being front, of which you've heard quite a bit this week so we'll talk about that. And, I'd also like to thank Helen. Hutton and Nancy Baker for putting this together so well just. For, a minute, let's start by. Stepping back in, history, stepping, back in time the. Year is 1905. And, picture. Freud yes. Freud. Standing. On the piazza, colonna in, Rome on a warm September evening. He's. Watching, a lantern slideshow and it's a medley of short films and, still. Photographs, projected. On the roofs of the houses in, the Piazza, and as. He writes later every. Time he tries to turn away a, certain, tension in, the crowd keeps, him riveted, this. Great thinker, far, from home was. Entranced. By the media the precursors, of the media that envelop, us today he, was conflicted and so. Are we, fast. Forward, to, our century, and we're, wrestling, still. With the promise, and the. Drawbacks of technology, so. Today we're going to talk a little bit about some, of the, challenges. Some of the ways in which we can harness the benefits and also. Begin. To take more responsibility all, of us as makers developers. Citizens, and parents for, what. We're creating, so. To start, of course it's, really important to understand. The landscape, understand. What. We're. Experiencing. So Anna maybe we'll start with you. To, talk a little bit about the history. Of Technology, and for, millennia. People have been associating. To new technologies, with something, fearful something. Challenging you know ever since Plato, complained, that, you. Know the. Written word, would, under, mine. Our memories, that, were so important in oral culture so how. Serious. Are the problems, of our time why should we be paying attention well.
I Mean if you think about evolution human evolution, things that are novel, are obviously very scary, because we haven't yet tested them out we don't know if they're there to help us or hurt us or if they're neutral and so. Anytime something, new comes along there's an instinct of panic in some sense and that's, where we are here again and we've had that all through time in the, 20th century it was TV and pinball machines, and video games and all sorts of other things and, one of the questions people ask all the time I think quite validly, is is is this different are we talking about something different now in the last 10-15 years or is this just the latest moral, panic that we're all dealing with I think, there are some things that make this different, I think. For. Sheer scope we're talking about experiences. That billions of us enjoy. Or or sometimes don't enjoy for, you, know hours and hours and hours of the day so the average American, spends, the. Average American adult spends 4 hours every day glued, to a phone screen so that's that's taking, up a huge amount of the waking day so we should understand, that I think quite well. Another, thing that's different, I think is that if you think about these past technologies, we've left most of them at home so, even if you watched a lot of TV that was that, was bound to a particular place but now we wear our devices and so. If. You ask people if you ask again, adults. In the developed world how much time do you spend with your phone 75%. Of adults will say that 24, hours a day they can reach their phones without having to move their feet which. Is not hugely surprising but again it suggests there's something a bit different about what we're experiencing, now it's not the pinball machine at the arcade it's, the phone that's actually a putt almost a part of you it's an extension of you so, I think there are a number of features that make this different, we're all so much more sophisticated in, developing, technologies, than we ever were we understand, human psychology better as a psychologist. Who's consulted. On a number of these projects, I know how, how much we know how much we understand about what drives humans, so, I think there are some features that make this a bit different from what we've experienced, in the past right the degree of penetration. Are. The fact we're inhabited, this, in our it's total, its total, as. Well as the rapid change I think that's a really important point so, Glenn, in. Order to now. Come out with all of the new changes, you have to keep your finger, on the pulse and, tell us a little bit about the research that for, instant has gone into the, announcements, this week related. To digital well-being. You. Know our people feeling helpless in. In. Their devices or empowered. Or both so. It's a really exciting time for us you. Probably saw some guy the other day talk about fear of missing out and the joy of missing out the. Joy of missing out really the type the title of the research that we had, done and, I've I it. Was really interesting we went out we saw how people engaged with technology, in the world and we saw know, many of the things that we see which is sort of once your head is down in the phone it's, it's sort of very easy to sort of stay there there are many things many exciting things in there that, keep you in there but I think the, other part that we saw that was really interesting was just how social.
Factors Became. A large part of this unlike. TV, or. Even. Desktop, computing, which, were generally, relatively, solitary. Things, you. Know a phone is an inherently social object. And so, one of the key things that we saw was that even. If there was nothing for you to do on your phone you, still kept it nearby because. There were other people who were trying to reach you and so we all became part of this big mesh of, humans. Contacting. Each other and I think that was something that we had underestimated, in all of this the role of each. Other. In. This area so, I think. Well. Actually when cell phones first came out I used to joke. That people. Should who, are buying them maybe. You haven't heard a RadioShack but, we. Used to buy phones at RadioShack that people that the, guy. At the store should take you in the back and give you counseling. Just like the minister might when you get married. Here's. What you need to know, so. I think you know that's really important and what about the emotional. Factors. Related. To these feedback, loops can you just elaborate, a little bit about because I know it's really, complex. And we're, right in the middle of it and it, reminds, me also of books, you know when you're reading. A book the, content is where your attention, lies but, there is a technology, around, it that affects. You it's. A lot less static than people think so you know what. What are we not aware of in, terms of our emotional, responses. And were you surprised, at the at. The at the top that you know the myriad responses, that people had yeah, it's, this. Whole space is like really, interesting because there are some deeply individual, responses. In here I think it's. Really hard to draw a broad generalizations. But the the feedback thing I think is really interesting Adam. Talks a lot about this actually in your book. About. How we, use use, these devices and they are immensely, useful to, us you know they've replaced maps, they've replaced clocks, they've replaced writing.
Letters They've replaced all these things and you. You do those actions and they you. Feel good they they're, performing a central. Utility in your life but, then it's sort of very easy for those interactions. To then bleed into, other, behaviors. That are maybe less useful or maybe they're entertaining and then, you can kind, of keep going because, there is this feedback loop of like oh just one more thing and so, that's why we, think about how, a lot, of that is very. Invisible. To. The user I think, you've talked elsewhere, about how sometimes, our own use of technology, can be very invisible to us and so, a key thing for us is how we can provide awareness, to people you, know I don't think it's a, total, number of hours thing, oh that's a good indicator it's like how, you felt about that time and. I think often. We find when, we show people how, much they were actually engaging they're, often surprised and I think that's a really interesting. Component. Yeah it's also it's. Also interesting there there are sort of scripts, that different people follow like I I know I have one when I open, my phone there's a certain set of apps and I'll go in this loop yeah that's, for the same one again and then I'll start I'll go through five or six of them and go back and there's something you get into a sort of lulled. Sense of calm, when you do that and that's I think a really big part of driving you to keep engaging. Over and over again yeah I think backstage. We were talking about the, automaticity, of the human being as being, such an, actor. And everything we do it underlays expertise. We have to do things without really thinking about them on the other hand we, have to be aware this, you know we evolved, to be as reflective. As we did, to be automatic. And that's really important so we're. Kind of learning as we go and we have these conflicted, senses, and I think we don't have the option to get it wrong honestly. I think we need to have technology, and humanity, come, together in, better, ways to to make us more compassionate. Better, discerning. Thinkers, so let's, turn to the crucial first, steps, again. Glenn maybe you can kick it off by talking about the, Android announcements. And, you know I thought it was interesting that some key words that you had mentioned in our preliminary talks, were control. And awareness you mentioned awareness, but how. Are some, of the you, know wind. Down and shush going. To give people more control and, and, do you have a sense that how, effective, will this be or is it a question mark yeah. So. The. Under announcements that we announced the other day were oriented, around awareness, and control giving people visibility. Into. What, they're actually doing so, they. Can they can be aware of what's happening and then giving them the tools to be able to change that behavior if they so choose and I think it's really been interesting for us as we've approached this space and thinking about the, right ways to. Handle. The responsibility, that we have in. Some ways we, have been thinking about where. Should that regulation. Lie should, it be technologically. Regulated, and we sort of came down to many, of these things start with self regulation I think in. Many ways that.
Feeling Of control is really important, to people and so. We, haven't provided, that in the platform historically, there's, little bits here and there but we want to take that further and to give people that feeling of awareness and control so, that as people are having these feelings about using their phones they. Have the ability to change. How they're using it and to. A question about like whether all of these things will work I think, I think. This is an ongoing thing, I think we, were talking backstage about how. Many. Of the things that that we all use in our life like to-do lists and other things often. They are effective, for some amount of time and then we kind of adapt and, then, we sort of find other ways to do things and so I expect this to be a long-running, effort, for us as we learn, it, might be that we encounter, sort. Of different, cultures. That have different attitudes towards, the phone yeah, and, how, we deal with that is really interesting, even. Going back to the prefix mat phone error we, found that there, were many places where the attitude, to dealing. With a ringing phone was. Very different in some places you always have to answer it regardless, of what you were doing and others it was okay to, let it ring out and so. That sort of responsibility, of respecting, the cultural norms and helping people think about those cultural norms is sort of where we're at yeah. I used, to think about attention. Which is a multi-faceted. Scientists. Used to ask me when I was first studying attention, the trick question, of what, kind of attention do you mean because, you know it's a messy big thing but I used to think of it I used I think of it now as arrows, in one's quiver, you, can use focus, you can use awareness, you can use executive attention, but there are tools. Just as perhaps these, tools, and I think that your announcements, are a very, very, big, deal. I do. Have to say that I mean. The mantra. Or the. Overarching. Societal. Push has. Been towards, seamlessness, yeah. I mean it's been an unbroken. Thing, you must engage, or. Or, or, it's beneficial, to engage to, break. That at all is really, momentous and, I, think that that's a huge step. Forward it's a very critical person, I. About. Technology. As I think it's a big step forward I think sorry. Just on that I think I think it is really something that's interesting for, everyone. Here who is a developer to think about is that we, have been focused, on immediacy. And, seamlessness, for a long time link we clearly know that that's a key aspect. To in sort of empowering people but. Thinking. About that in the company of social contexts, you know creating something that is, immediate. For you as a sender also. Create something on the other side for the receiver and so, as we've, developed all of these things that are very immediate, there, is another side. Of the equation, that we've got to think about, yeah. I think that's. Important. Go ahead yeah no I totally, agree with that I think there's, always going to be this sort of, not. The backlash but that the other side of that that the, the quicker the transfer, becomes in one direction the quicker it'll you'll, expect to get the reply right, that's a really interesting idea and. Also, this this general idea of the. Role of, frictionless. 'no sand the absence, of pain points we talk about this all the time in business on, a professor in a business school and one, of the mantras in businesses, make everything as simple as possible one, of the best ways to spend your money is to remove pain points or friction points and that. Makes total, sense because that's the best way to ensure not just engagement, for five minutes but for sometimes weeks years, even. Decades and. I. Think. We've now pushed that to a point where this we're starting to get the initial backlash, and that's that's a it's a it's great that these, these, new. Introduced, tools allow people to. Manage that a little bit to introduce frictions where they might be valuable that's right yeah, and I also think that. It's. Really important. To think. About. The idea of, disconnection. Which. Might be a change, in the tempo or the rhythm that allows you to gain friction, but, to think about that in a way that's not just in. An on and off way so in other words, maybe. We can open up the space of these questions, so we're, not just thinking about, the. Little pause, points. As being, away, from technology, but. Importing. That discussion. Into the very digital space, and and, I think about that currently, in relation, to the idea of technology. Because, I mean I'm sorry in the relation to the idea of uncertainty. You know uncertainty, seems, like a very negative thing but, you. Know just, consider. One. Of the unintended consequences. Of having answers, at your fingertips, all the time, this, instant, annuity which actually came in in the 1718, 19th century I mean this is just you know been rolling, along for hundreds of years efficiency.
Is It but, now there are studies that are showing a little bit of hints, here and there about, what it means to have that instant annuity, all the time for instance after briefly, searching, online, people. Are seen to be less. Willing to. Solve. To, tackle a complex, problem later. After. Briefly searching, online they, become a little bit more confident. Overconfident. I mean about, what they know they don't really know what, they know and don't know and I think these are really important, hints, because. And why does this matter you know I think it matters because there. Is that side of ourselves that's, automatic. The quick mind you, know thrives, in the routine, you. Know needs, instant, answers does, really well in the familiar but then we. If we, exist. On a steady diet of the, in the package than a downloadable, in the instant all the time we're, beginning to possibly. Forget, to, tap, into the other side of ourselves the reflective, the, questioning. The skeptical, the so-called slow, mind and. In fact there's a really exciting, new. Explosion, of research into. Various. Forms of uncertainty. As actually. Connected, to good thinking for. Instance and, this really does I think connect, to technology, and well-being but, ambivalence. In CEOs, in, a crisis, is shown to induce them to do deeper research, to. Look at multiple perspectives. To include more voices and, then to take bolder, action Wow. And then confusion. In students. Again. People have always thought, the easy lesson, that what's good you know easy to digest is, better for learning but, it's shown in complex. Situations, that, confusion. You. Know relates. Leads, to deeper, processing, in students, so this these. Sort, of factors, fly. Against. A lot of what our society values. And, I think that why. Not develop. A digital, world where, the, human, is more inspired to say oh I don't know or you. Know to pause and, then chat, jack into that kind of discerning. Self that they have and I'll just leave this point with one piece. Of to one. Other piece of research which is that, when people in. The United States are surveyed and asked what's positive about, technology, sixty, percent say, speed. Instant. Access to. Information convenience. But, just ten percent say. A positive about, technology, is it, that it promotes knowledge. Understanding, and, curiosity. So, that's. A really big disconnect, and if we could propel. Our other. Side, of ourselves into, that space with, developers. Help I think that would be really powerful and, it has everything to do with all the you know the hardship etc, so right. Yeah. You. Know if you think about the. Way we stored information, say. In the early 80s, when I was growing up I, probably. Knew 100 phone numbers off by heart right and that. That was that, seems straightforward and I think all kids at that time did they knew their you know you knew your friends you knew your family members phone numbers you knew some other ones and, what. That did was it meant that certain memory faculties, were always being used and they were being trained without your even realizing, it and there's, a lot of research now extending. What you're suggesting, into, a concept. Known as hardship, inoculation, and it's the idea that if you if. You use your mind in certain ways if you think about things in certain ways in.
Small Doses you become much better prepared to deal with major, tackles. Major problems, major, creativity. Hurdles times, when the way you've been thinking about things in a traditional, sense are not gonna work how, do you get around that turns, out having those hundred numbers in your head training, your memory that also applies to how we use our minds in other ways and so when, everything is absolutely, seamless and. We don't have to memorize, we, don't have to try to think about what we're gonna do next because we have a device that's going to deliver it entertainment you, know in the next three seconds if that's what we want I think. Those faculties. Wither away a little bit and so it's it's important, to have occasions. When we do use them in you know even. In a low grade sense just so that they're kept alive it's like a muscle that's withering away so you want to make sure that life isn't so straightforward and seamless that were always our automatic cells and never our reflective, cells okay, that reminds me a lot of the discussions, about discipline, yeah, and and how that sort of leads to it so developments, later in people's lives but, I think a key takeaway for me is thinking about how you. Know technology in many ways can be used, to I think the idea is and, in many ways is true it helps us become more active in other areas, as we make some things easier that, allows us to devote, time, and attention to the things that matter and I think the danger is that where, we don't elevate. Ourselves, in that way and we can end up becoming purely, passive, there's. There's plenty of time you know that there are times for that in people's lives like I was in hospital for a week once and I was very passive passive for the entire in we can end up becoming. There are times for that in people's lives like I was in hospital for a week once and I was very passive passive for the entire end we can end up becoming. For that in people's lives like I was in hospital for a week once and I was very passive passive, for the entire in we can end up becoming. There are times for that in people's lives like I was in hospital for a week once and I was very passive passive for the entire yeah, so.
I Think you, know we're exploring, how to get a grip on this landscape we're, also talking. About well-being, which, is a very also, messy, ill-defined, topic, but you know we've talked about control, we're talking about awareness we're, talking about hardship. And, uncertainty. I mean these sorts, of plug, these motifs. Or notions, plug into psychological. Ideas. About, well-being. You, know mastery. Control. Accomplishment. As well, as social. Relationships. And. Health. Those, are really important, components, I mean what would you think. Digital. Well-being. You. Know what would it look like if the United Nations in five years, was or, the kingdom, of Bhutan you. Know came, out with the, new GDP. For digital. Digital. Well. DW. Beat. We. Can all scale mountains there and and, see what it feels like but what. Do you think it should look like Glenn, oh yeah. That's a super-deep. I. Do. Think that. There. May not be a global view. There may not be a countrywide. View, and I, think that. The. Thing that we grapple, with is. While. Level, is there a shared view like. Is it even at the friends. Level is it at the family, level is, it different, within different different. Social contexts, we. Talk about use, of technology. And they can meet, you know the exact same usage, can mean different, things to different people it, can lead to sort, of different a different sense of satisfaction. I. I. Think there are key. Metrics. About like whether people feel that. Their use of technology, was. Overall, beneficial, to them whether, they derived value. From it and I think it's you. Know there's a lot of debate about what that value should be you, know I think we all impose her and Valley upon, the world as we think through these things and I think it, is you, know some for some people the value is you. Produced something for others it's you've developed social relations, for others the value can just be pure entertainment and, I think that's okay. But, as long as you are, artful. And an intentional, about it, and you feel, that you're in control of it I think that's what well-being, looks like that's. Great do you have any flourishing. What, does it look like no, I I think it's it's interesting because science, generally, resists subjectivity, you want to test you know you can give people a test there are twelve items you answer them you add up the score and you can say your well-being level, is you, know average. Point. Two yeah exactly, and I think that what's. Been interesting for me and studying this topic for a while is that people have a really good sense objectively, when they introspect, about how they feel about their relationship, to technology and they're all using very different metrics, as Glenn said so. For. Some it's about social relationships. And facilitating, that and that for me is a big part I live as, I. Imagine you do a long way from a, big part of my family and so technology has allowed me to connect with them in a way that is very very enriching, so. That for me is a key factor for other, people that might not be a factor at all either you live near the people that really matter to you or it's, more important to you to create or to to, automat eyes or whatever it may be and. So I think there, is no one definition and I think it'll be very hard to find just, one definition, but I think that's the best thing we can all do is have, a list of questions to ask ourselves and, the, answers to that I think will illuminate for each of us individually, whether.
We've Got a high, or low level of digital well-being, and often, for me it's digital, wellbeing comes from. Augmenting. Our real non, digital experiences, that's much of it for me so, I like social, connection, I get more of that social connection and better social connection with people I couldn't have it with using, digital tools I want. To know where I am I can do it better with a map on a device all of that I think is a really big part of it right and there will be trade-offs, you know in New York City it used to be that you'd turn, to someone on the street and say where I'm I and I'm very directionally, challenged, sometimes, I'm even math challenged, so I turned and human beings and they look into you someone crazy where's your phone they. Really look they. Don't know where they are they have no idea where they are so they're really good you know they're there's. So many trade offs it'll keep us guessing for, a long long time well. I think that I had an interesting. Situation. With a friend that I'm still trying to figure out where I sent him an article, but, instead of answering that he had gotten it you know it was something very close to my heart an article I had written about tolerance. In today's culture, but, he, waited. And waited and waited and, he was he was naturally. Going to you. Know read it and then get back to me but I felt, like, wow. Can't you just say you got it. So. It was it was really I just throw that out there there no answers, but I think, that you know acknowledgement. Communications. Maybe this will keep us all it. Should keep us on our toes and better and better way I I, think, that exact case was. Something. That we saw in our own research that was deeply, surprising, going, back to the discussion of technology, being a social tool I think, one of the, aspects. Of it that we found really surprising, was. Expectations. Of how we use it with each other I have haven't. Really been set I think with telephones. We, kind of created a culture like don't call after this time because they're probably asleep it's gonna ringing the house I feel, that and. We saw this that we saw many of those situations where, someone would send a message and. They. Would not get a reply and. They. Didn't know what that meant they. Didn't know if the other person, was hurt, or hated. Them. We. Saw, someone who it took her three hours to get back to her friends. In. Some amount of time because she was busy and. When. They finally got in contact, they were the. Friend was very upset, that had taken three hours to get back to someone and I feel like that, is a sign that we haven't developed quite the that, shared, understanding. Of what I use. Communication. Technologies. Really means ice, it feel that because we haven't set that we, often. Pressure ourselves. Into, being, polite about it, you know it's like oh if someone sent me a message I have to respond right now because otherwise, they'll worry and. That. Social dynamic, in that cultural dynamic, I think is really interesting for us so, I think that's something that we want to spend a lot of time thinking about and how we can help, through technology nudge, things.
In The right direction I think come with with letters and emails so, letters, you only got a certain number that emails some people get hundreds a day and, so, we we've, tried to apply the grammar that we use to determine how to deal socially, with letters which is you always reply it's the polite thing to do yep to email or, to texts and that doesn't work if you get a certain number you get an undated and yeah I was having this discussion with my wife recently if I get say a hundred emails a day and I, don't respond, to one of them I make an active decision not to reply that seems really rude but also I didn't. Invite, conversation. With everyone, who's emailing so I just, never know where to draw the line yes. It's really tricky and I don't even know if there is a set of rules you could draw up that would allow you to deal with that no especially, for the different, types of people that are emailing you work, emails versus emails from your parents different expectations. But your habits may be the same so different, generations, have different expectations, certainly, but. I think that maybe. We. Have to welcome, that type of uncertainty, well keep working, at it because it took a thousand, years, for. The book to be hammered out as a tech those the technology, we know today in Shakespeare's, time there, were 150, different, versions of 12 night and you, could buy you know all sorts of different plot lines in london's, bookstores, so and in, our remaining. Minutes, let's. Try to look ahead perhaps. We've. Guessed. A little bit about perhaps what digital well-being, might be but what's, exciting, what's coming up in the pipeline either, as, a sort, of throwing. Our minds forward to the future in terms of technological well-being. Digital. Well-being or what's. Really. Exciting, now. For, you Adam I'm, just I'm excited that there's a conversation, now at this level the fact that I was invited to speak here is very, exciting, for me because I've been thinking about these issues for a while and I used. To spend the first 10 minutes of any conversation. Or any talk convincing, people that this was something we should even be discussing and we, don't have to do that anymore I think that's a really good first step that when you look people in the eye you know we all recognize that this is something we should be focusing, on and that. Goes all the way up to a big company like Google and all the way down to individual, people that you meet on the street so I think that's very exciting and then, the question is where we go from here and I think we're really. At the beginning and I wish, that were better scientific, research out there that suggested, this, is what, the damage will, be this. Is what we need to change if we don't this is what will happen and this is how we deal with it and it turns out I'm at a very exciting point because I'm doing, some of this research but it's it I think it's some of the earliest research, there isn't a huge amount out there now so, at the bottom of a very tall steep mountain and we will learn a lot along the way but.
Not Much has been done there's a huge amount of low-hanging fruit and that's what I'll be doing with the next few years is trying to work out what, should we be really concerned about what, are we just talking about because there is some degree of panic and and then, how do we how do we deal with it how do we fix it not just as individual, consumers who are managing our own use or our kids use, but. Also how do companies, like Google, introduce. New new, options new technologies, and obviously that's already starting, in a very I, think encouraging way. Um. I think. What. I'm sort of excited about is I. And. I think many, people here like. The. Reason why we work in this space is, that we. Want to build experiences. That people love I think. Just. Delivering, something to someone and seeing the joy on their face I think that's a deeply motivating. Factor. For me and and I'm sure many of you and I, feel like, part. Of this discussion is an. Understanding. That. We. Don't quite know yet what it means for people to love software. I think historically. We've sort of measured that very costly, in. Oh if, people are spending more time using the, thing that I've built clearly that must mean that they love it and I, feel like this, whole space is about understanding that that's not necessarily true and so what I'm really excited about is finding more, the more of the evidence that you talk about and more of those tools and means so, that we can all go and build more lovable software mm-hm, that's, great and I I too would second the idea that it's, so, exciting, having, been in the space of writing, about technology for, nearly 20 years now as a humanist. You. Know to see, the maturation, of discussion, and. The unease I think that's really important. Too I would, say that that, just to throw out I think that it's. A little bit different, but it's part of well-being this issue of tolerance, and I, I have seen some.
Very Early. Evidence. That, in the space of the digital world more, can be done, than, one would think to kind of push back on the hatred, that's out there online there's, a, professor. At NYU actually. A PhD student who's done some amazing work, in. You. Know in the space of helping. People speak, up and on, Twitter, he's, found that when there's, a hater. Someone, who's really espousing. Horrific, things, online. And. Then, a, person. From their in-group, so if there's a you know a white male. Espousing. Hatred, and a, white male who's, influential, on, has. Followers, on Twitter it, makes one, comment. About hey, man think, again or these, people are human, what are you doing one comment. Lowers. Dramatically. The amount of hatred from that person, for. Two months and that's. Really, in a remarkable. Thing so it speaks to a lot of research right now there's, an exciting. Research. On prejudice on and offline, on combating, prejudice that shows that little points, of speaking up important, so technology, that, could help us learn that. Help us speak up or understand. When we're, needed, to say something in, the realm I think is really important, another. Study. Out of Europe. Showed that if, people are given a kind of adventure, game in perspective. Taking a day in the life of Roma a person, whose aroma, and and the and the kinds of troubles that they go through very. Short, game has. Extraordinary. Effects it lowers, their likelihood, to vote for a far-right. Party, it. Lowers, their. Prejudice. Against. The, Roma it also for up to a year lowers. Their. Prejudice. Against, other minorities. Or other you, know pariah, people. Like, people. Are learn a lot of a negative sentiment about like refugees so I think these ripple, effects are really, important, to tap. Into the verb in the virtual world what. Is you know ripple effects are there and that's really important and, so. I think we've covered a, lot of ground but I hope we raise some good questions something. To, take away to think about to chew over, and. I'll just say to wrap up that we've certainly come a long way from the days of lantern slideshows, and the. Telegraph as, the state of the art communications. Tool and, yet we're still wrestling, with the tensions, and promises, of technology, it. All, of what we're facing demands. Creative. Spirits, open. Minds and a. Lot, of questioning. And. Questioning. Is the. Opposite, of complacency. And. Unease, is, really. A central, route to progress in a society so. I think we have reason to be optimistic that, with your help we, can create a more healthy digital. World thank. You very much.