A Conversation with John Zerzan on Direct Action, School Shootings, Authenticity, Veganism & More

A Conversation with John Zerzan on Direct Action, School Shootings, Authenticity, Veganism & More

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yeah you met him during the trial which was interesting because you were the one that told him that he didn't have a chair hope he didn't have a chance because his lawyers were going for the insanity difference yeah so that was must been interesting um drama at the end i mean it happens that happens to a lot of people i guess like that they can as well as just like like put pressure on them to take place and stuff i'm just looking at my questions yeah i mean the first big one i think the first big one is how do you determine what direct action targets are justifiable today because i'm interested in ted since his effect on the world and i know that he inspired a lot of people on the left inside a lot of people on the right and like some good things i would say like uh animal liberation from a celebration from activists like where's the burns by blames take action um but i'm a bit worried he's he can be like a stepping stone like he had the individualists attending towards savagery or the wild who who were influenced by him and from going from like an affinity group in mexico to yeah if in fact there it really was such a group it's that's debatable i guess right yeah kind of a forest but it does whether it's fictional or not i mean it still raises the same questions i'm much more interested in uh critique than i am in uh tactics but to me it's what's really at the base of it as it usually is is the question of violence what is violence and what is not violence and i think my position is rather simple if you it's not violence if if it's not directed at uh some form of life in other words you can't violate a building or a you know what have you yeah in my view i mean friends might disagree i mean they would say and we don't shrink from violence and that's a position um too so but i'm you know i just think that in general it's uh there are a lot of targets and uh you know you have to it depends you know i don't think you can get too far finding that question in the abstract but i could be wrong well yeah i mean some it's i mean some websites try to like put like like names and principles thing of like what what actions they they'll record and then i think that can can influence um what actions people take and what questions people think are justified i mean you know you have i mean you have um people saying uh like by any means necessary going back to like malcolm x in the 60s um but um i i i don't know i've i've written up i've i've like um experimented with writing up like a list of principles for kind of what um direction is uh principles unnecessary at different stages in in kind of history in terms of like peace time and when social tensions so i don't know what you think about those or if you well just mention that kaczynski did refine his own view on that i mean he apologized for that early crude bomb on the jetliner he he renounced that i think he the targets were relatively more appropriate as he went along as they became more lethal uh on that level anyway you could i think you could argue that that's the case um and what what where is the effectiveness i mean what what success are you having or not having i mean that that can tell you uh something about you know which what things to do or what things to avoid and and what would be the measurements of success for you do you think well are you advancing the uh to me advancing well in fact i would say advancing the dialogue i think that if you're if your thing is mainly critique it's a question of the conversation in society is it is there some resonance is there some interest is there some uh development going on there or or have you in other words i'm not afraid of certain tactics that people shrink from commonly from and they say well that's just that's just you're just turning everybody off and but sometimes i think you have to go through that stage if you will i mean sometimes that's that comes with the territory in other words they will people will be defensive and horrified or whatever at first and then they won't be you know then it becomes part of the the dialogue you know then then things change they don't remain the same in other words to be shocked at the beginning with some tactics but that wears off i think that's i would assert that that's likely to be the case right and and you made the ex the comparison between um because it's in john brown in that way um and i said i've yeah and i i mean the difference i would say is that for me in those two situations are that john brown was like uh five six years away from the civil war and and it was it was very much like um like they were accepted as guerrilla um they were accepted as using guerrilla warfare tactics um for the time uh and um yeah so because it so because it's he because these actions were in some ways like asymmetrical warfare but but they were like they're very far away from any like they didn't have any like snowballing in fact they weren't like strategic targets that um that scared people off from doing it like carrying on or anything like that i don't know probably quite frankly i was surprised by the by the levels of uh sympathy that were spontaneously expressed in the us in the 90s i was i was pleasantly surprised by that really there was much much less horror uh or there was horror at the bombings and stuff but it but there was also there was also a good deal of sympathy i was i was rather surprised like one case uh my wife uh she knew this woman at the business school at the university here and they this person commented on the footage the media footage when they were taking him uh somewhere in montana before he before they moved him to california and he's dressed it's a well-known deal he's got a sport coat on and you can tell he's got a vest on underneath and he's kind of looking up at the sky as he's walking along and she's her comment was why don't they just put a cross on his shoulders in other words comparing them to jesus for christ's sake i mean that's a little unexpected especially from a rather quote straight person who's not who's not a an anarchist or anything of this sort [Music] yeah i mean we i mean definitely it was a it was a novel case wasn't i mean we love fascination with lots of i mean i'm i'm fascinated by um uh uh eileen warno's okay how how how she affected culture in a bit because um uh like she um people thought it was like there was um it was people that thought when they heard their radio you know do you know the case filing um the word the case of eileen warno's um she was a sex worker um hitchhiking hooker um um who killed men and and so it was like it was this it was this weird um for the time it was it was this weird just juxtaposition because uh women were getting killed uh sex working women were getting killed all the time by um by men and so so it flipped the script a little bit that that was actually um yeah there's actually truck drivers that were afraid to pick up women because because they were worried about getting ill so um and some people and some people um hearing about it or hearing about on the radio thought it was like um like out of like a norwell novel like they were that they were the or the martian what was the under the martian landing um anyway so yeah these things do um like definitely i mean i'm fine with people for sure and finding a lot of value in his in his philosophy and he's definitely like intersexual and and like and found and has found um a good critique of modern supervisors and for nine percent of his work um yeah i just i just worry that like his his effect on the world is is going to be like a stepping stone and to the right for a lot of people so so in terms of um in terms of like yeah in terms of discussing his his legacy or something um we need to figure out ways to lay some principles and say that that what he did um was chaotic and wrong and and mostly and and uh we need we need these solid principles for direction today to be it's obesity to labor stepping stones for going forward um so yeah i don't know um uh just a couple of questions this um [Music] yeah i mean well you're so you're i mean um yeah there's lots of different parts of you you're one that's um it looks at the alienation of um like symbolic culture and and the division of what division of labor um in in terms of i know you i know you disagree with um it's and random male bombings and stuff um but in terms of like people agreeing with the philosophy then is it is it how do they yeah just without without do do you i mean there's the principles that you can point to and say that like um it needs to be part of it needs to be up like a social movement working towards change making these stepping zones um are you not consent that uh you could be promoting their election which falls outside ethical principles and like like the ones i go such that you run the risk of motivating someone to take dire election which makes um the rebellion uh more resistance look um look insane and so leads people's wish to preserve the status quo or facilitate and move to a more realistic it's what are you uh what is happening in terms of social movements i mean there's very little right now uh this isn't uh i mean i could point to the anti-globalization years so-called you know around 1999 to 2001 uh which was pretty considerable thing it's kind of forgotten but i mean i don't know perhaps kaczynski's forgotten and and to me his rigidly anti-tech focus is you know kind of loses its team i mean as you know i'm anti-civilization and if you're just stuck with only the anti-tech thing you're you you get to this wooden position where you you lose a lot of uh potential it seems because the rest of it to me flowed and this question of uh you know i noticed in the notes with this fellow normandy or you were saying well you don't want to be stuck in some medieval uh deal without industry well that's right there you get the problem right i mean the piece not to go too far along with this but there was a piece in the american magazine the new yorker back in the 90s when the when the trial was still going on i believe it was simply called e pluribus unibomber it was kind of a funny little one page piece and it it posed the question precisely precisely that okay so against modern technology does that mean you want the middle ages and he never answered that question yes i don't want the middle ages hell no you know got to look back to see the what this crisis is all about what has brought it brought us to this stage and otherwise it's kind of stuck with this one note uh deal that's uh really rather limited insisted over and over and over he has no interest in anything but but modern technology i mean that's that's almost silly yeah the crisis shows that it's this much bigger and much deeper than that it's it comes to a head with the technological society and by the way he told me he he got his ideas from a lull it's an american vernacular version of the technological society that's what it is that's his great gift that's his great plus he made it very readable you know the the original or the original translation in the english is is hard to read it has that abstract classical mode of the way french are taught to write and it's very off-putting i think in the rest of the uh the rest of the world the rest of the west in any way the rest of say america yeah yeah and i mean it's interesting hilo um is kind of a classical christian artist and and likes like the um what's it called about this kind of like small communities of like federated society so he doesn't he's he's very critical of technique technology but um but he still wants to make accommodations for it if we can view it as tools um but yeah i don't know like um so i mean i think a lot from what i've talked to about normandy i think he he kind of like optically wants to or anti-industrialists like him wants to maybe want to identify his own syndromes rather than primitives because they don't want they don't they they want to like it's like a maybe it's a first step or maybe it's like acknowledging that primitivism is a lot harder but anti-tech is achievable in that you can just like destroy the electricity grids and it will um and it'll be hard to get how to get that back up straight straight away it's less abstract here we are so totally immersed in the technology and the the alien that's brought is just frightful this is so palpable it it's just you know utterly impossible to ignore so yeah there's the technology on all sides at every moment so sure it's it's obviously part of the the problem of course it's uh right up there but that's just part of it to me it's like the the leftists who uh are only limited to talking about capitalism well of course one's against capitalism but it goes much deeper than that right it goes get the roots of it like look where how that emerges and why you know yeah and i definitely like a lot of like uh butchering also of eco-feminist philosophy of like um like the priestly classes and stuff throughout history of of them besides anti-capitalism of like um have um tried to like uh keep people like neuronic people down and um uh keep higher um so capable and hierarchies from way before in feudal times um and yeah i don't know um by just in terms of getting this global shift is it is it is it that you just don't have kids and like within a hundred years you you you've only got a very small population or how um like obviously um some direction to encourage people and show them the way or something but it's um i don't think i don't see it kind of hard to answer i mean that's the challenge what would that look like how fast could that happen if you change directions and uh start to imagine things so differently i mean uh you know who can say whether it happens at all what is obviously an open question it may not get anywhere with this you know i'm not uh i'm not clear about that and no one can i don't think so but you know you start to think about the emerging directions and the transition and so forth but only when you get to that place can you start to pose those questions and think about specific practical uh parts of the picture you know it's it's it's really speculate there and i have to some degree but it's uh you know that's a further question it seems to me yeah yeah it's it's interesting i mean i like yeah i like the critique in a lot of ways like i want like i i talk about um this like concept of minimum viable use so like if you if you can if you if you want to like we we have a really really nice culture in europe um of like punk post of like if we want if we want to talk to someone who's on like a on a camp like across the country then you and someone's going that way then you write them a letter and that person takes it to them so yeah so rather rather than calling them you you put the effort into into like the creativeness of the of the writing and then that's like the minimum viable use technology for needed for that task and then in the way and then in doing that you've been you've fulfilled yourself more than just a quick phone call yeah technology is erasing now we just text don't even want to hear the human voice i mean it's just getting so monstrous so fast and maybe that's of course the strangely silver lining in the whole thing it's just impossible to ignore the effects and people are so miserable i mean the immigration is just uh just almost unimaginable but there it is it's you know the alienation the isolation there's you know suicide among the young deaths of despair opioid crisis on and on and on it's uh it's just huge uh estrangement yeah yeah so that's good segways you talk a lot about um school shootings on your on your show and that's like a really like uh it's a it's a perfect thing and um it's a sign of of atomization and culture being fragmented in um and um yes i mean you had a weird case of someone phoning your radio show years before and they they did a school shooting and um uh i yeah you had there was a cnn piece of least yeah that's pretty incredible he did he acted out the very thing that he was uh trying to uh raise awareness of it you know the the chimpanzee attacked its owner uh in a very uh horrible way and uh and you know he said that's us we're forced into these uh impossible unnatural ways of being and uh people are gonna snap like the chimpanzee and then he's look and then he snapped i mean incredible irony there yeah i mean it's it's it's really difficult i don't know how old i like if i i don't know how you could you could would have to know do you do you have any idea how you would have handled it have you known that like if we if we had like amazing foresight of of interpreting what he was what what he meant my co-host as as kind of a quiet troubled high school kid i mean just but but picking up on on the reality of life in uh late civilization and how bizarre it is and the pressure is one's under we we know we both said uh yeah exactly thanks for the call i mean it didn't it certainly did not occur to us that he was part of the very you know thing he was warning about and i guess that about a year later that that happened and then yeah it just that would have been awfully nice but we didn't thought that's that's quite a good insight that's quite a good uh parallel that you're making and uh you know that was it there wasn't any dialogue we didn't even he was just trying to bring out that point and bothered to call and yeah thanks for the call and that was that if only we could have or seen uh that he was actually going in that very direction it would have been nice we could have tried to do something tried to engage him in terms of where he was at you know with how his life was in his own life yeah and i mean i guess you i i know like perimeters in my life and i i know like a lot of them like get a lot of value from it when they when they get into the philosophy and they they start like an allotment and they they feel like more connected to the earth and um all the stuff and maybe like work on food no bombs and stuff they're very much like part of campaigns on the left um but i mean it's like i i don't know if i'd because i know that i'm not a primitive so i know that if if i'd had that call i i might have i might i've tried to challenge him a little bit on on domestication and and whether like violence is whether like even even if you feel pushed to an extent through like bullying in school or something like um whether i don't know i don't know how like i guess um my problem i go from words now is showing that i wouldn't have the perfect words to say but but um uh i don't know i guess i would i i worried that um like a shared um a shared validation of like industrialization without challenging those the underlying philosophy maybe it could have it could have been a turning point like there's um the cnn piece uh this the doctor of criminology they had on at the end of the cnn piece said um the subject said the subtext of what he's the school shooter is saying his violence is innate and instinctual to humans and really should not be put uh punished because it's the natural basis that's the message i think he's trying to get across and the parallel to himself is obvious he feels possessed by this need this compulsion to commit violence so do you do you agree with that do you think do you think that would think he was saying something like that or how do you think he was just very very off base see right did people innately uh homicidal is that that's what he's saying well there's criminal criminology was saying that this that he himself was bringing up the story because um because maybe he he felt those impulses with himself because of domestication because of like um bullying school and and that and that if wasn't domestication it wouldn't have happened to him so then his violence is justified in some way or something well yeah that seemed to be the lesson of what he what he phoned the show about you know that that's that's what you get that's why this chimpanzee freaked out and attacked its owner i mean precisely because of uh the the domestication control the so unnatural and and painful and it just caused the animal to snap and you know that but you know that he was saying of course that that's a that corresponds to the situation in society it's so uh unbearable really and and i bet there was that quite possibly bullying in the picture there have been other cases of mass shootings where there was in fact bullying and then that's part of the uh you know the onerous uh life that some somebody's living in and they it's intolerable so yeah yeah i mean i still i guess like i would have challenged him in terms of like i'll challenge anyone who talked about violence as kind of like i don't know um i would have tried to say like um um that there's there's like it's not it's not acceptable what what and the way schools at schools are structured at the moment the way bullying starts to happen and the way to where we can domesticate by technology to the degree um but i just i worry that like because there's a there's a like there's a sect of like nihilist primitivism of like the it's variety that the thing like i think nature is violent in some way and that they they um rather than it just being actually being destructive um that they are decided to do it so if if i if i came across someone like that i would hope that i would try and talk them over to a kind of kind of personal uh the techno technology the um personal like low tech lifestyle but um but to see that like there's a future in in um building better schools and not not being decided to take some state violence in that way you have to see i mean are is somebody coming from an anti-authoritarian point of view or not you know that's that's kind of basic or you know another way is this person an anarchist are we starting out with the same sort of general uh approaches or values you know that's i mean sometimes these i don't know some some of the stuff just off the table like this its stuff that was strike me as uh completely unworthy of uh making any contribution at all i was just appalled that people like the little card folks were saying oh we can learn something from this really murdering uh random people no it's not that's just sick and [ __ ] up and and if that's what passes for being an anarchist uh no thanks you just have to distance yourself from [ __ ] like that cool okay yeah definitely agree on that um so the last thing was uh his um i found i read what i thought was a good book by um saul newman on um the politics of post anarchism his um um his uh his take on on where we should be going he kind of values like um uh like um you know lizard in france and so uh temporary autonomous zones of like him uh his own zone in the defense and then and just like a kind of um separating oneself off from um like cities but um rebelling in in kind of not not uh not storming the bastille way i don't know i don't know maybe i'm you you're in all this stuff um but with newman i mean he's a classic post-structuralist post-modern character it's you know it gets down to basic stuff doesn't it i mean if you feel like presence is just an illusion most basically because there's nothing outside of symbolic culture right outside the text there is nothing deroda right well if that's not true what if there's an alternative to symbolic culture to the whole representational racket i mean i think there's quite possibly there is uh that possibility in fact in practice there was hunter-gatherer life pretty symbolic culture right for millions for over a million years uh you know face-to-face community uh non-hierarchical these these are generalities here but you know um they did quite well without symbolic culture without art without the concept of number without a lot of things so you can you can make the assertion and you know a lot of it's traced back to say derrida or others but just because you're saying there is no that's just a fiction that the presence cannot exist because you can't get outside of the symbolic well that's that's that's one point of view but i don't think that's true that's just yeah it was part of the general surrender politically in terms of in more or less reactionary times you get philosophies like that you know which which sort of take over the whole the whole backward uh aspect of post-modernism it really is a way of at a time when there's pretty much no social movements you get stuff like that and that's that's a good way to put it but that's that's part of the picture i think okay um yeah i take the point um i think obviously they would they would say that about some premises but um uh so i mean i i don't know i i guess they're maybe they i don't know how they're defining symbolism i guess um i like my perspective is like animals are using uh symbols and language kind of going way back to like pirates and primates but um i mean that is tricky i mean it's it's an open question but uh animals do communicate but i think it's more signals than symbols you know it's it's not really representational it's it's in in the way of symbolic culture that the humans have it's uh just because they communicate of course they do birds all sorts of animals they have to for survival but that doesn't that doesn't make it uh very symbolic it seems to me but anyway that's these definitions have to uh you know they're sort of problematic because you we've used these terms in different ways or inelastic ways that then the whole conversation becomes a little confusing um so i don't yeah i don't want to take too rigid a position but it's uh you don't have to have symbolic language for there to be uh communication anyway that's obvious i guess uh well you know it's it's tricky for sure like i mean i get into debates all the time with people about like him uh who like who wants to use language like um anthony uh abolish work and abolish prisons and um and uh it's it's a i mean it's a trying this is trying to reframe the debate um but um uh i don't know um so i mean just in terms of upon us in terms of like whether whether we should desire kind of like an authenticity of of like a long like a large period of our evolutionary history as humans and uh i don't know like i i um uh i think potentially we could be like suffering more now for sure um but it could be like suffering that um that we we desire to take on in in if we if we can get to like this left-handed pro technology future um uh it can it could be like a source of virtue for us like striving for these intellectual um skills and then uh i don't know like authenticity uh it's it it's it's this kind of it's um as a concept it's only like developed recently like we um we used to have uh we used to think of authenticity as like sincerity and like sincerity to your family and like and like be and like you were being authentic to yourself if you if you were like just unfair to you to your family and like in taking in in taking on your responsibilities or something so um i didn't i don't know why i would personally decide and to gather my life i know i would desire together like more than mid middle ages but i think i think rather rather than just selling for primitive life or just certainly for middle ages i think we should try and be up my reminds me i think we should try and be aspirational to this like future world of still being able to use some kind of things some technology like printing presses and penicillin and stuff so i don't know these different steps uh one requires the other i mean you now technology comes around to promise to heal what it has caused in the first place so i mean you know where do you try to arrest that uh progression and where do what does it all depend on what does it all depend on you you don't have any technology really without uh you know without the extraction without the mining the smelters the warehouses and people have to assume often who do they assume is going to do all that it doesn't exist without all that so that's a that's a form of slavery but they seem to be fine with that to have this have the wonders of technology resting upon what i mean not only the ruin of the natural world of the biosphere but uh you know wage slavery for almost countless people for that to exist that's not yeah and if i believed that that um we were just like go in the way of machines and we were going to talk we were going to create a artificial intelligence and then terminate ourselves by um just letting them take over and uh or whole becoming more machine like um i would i would definitely i would definitely worry and deciding everything and people don't understand how they work i mean we've swept along uh you know in this whole van of the progress with the capital p and look where it's gotten us this is it's just becoming horrible on every front it says one large uh crisis that all the parts of it are kind of merging into a very very bad uh picture yeah and if i if i thought that that was i mean i don't know like i'm still researching maybe i'm being naive in in in just like uh uh advocating for something that is more likely that's happened um but um yeah i don't know i i i wasn't saying um uh yeah i worry that um uh i'm worried that if we if people take that reduction and try to um try to just like separate themselves off from um technology and cities that that we we leave people um to suffer like we we lose hospitals oh yeah so um like i mean i don't know how if you think how useful you think hypotheticals are but um so definitely like if if technology is this thing that just like manufactures consent and we and we get towards robots then then that's definitely bad and and if that if that if you have if if we have if we have reasonable high confidence that that is the future then obviously i would i would be on board with just trying to collapse the system in order to try and get back primitivism but um i thought that's a good you know if people you know everybody wants community right i mean we could all agree on that uh except what happened to it why did it go away why is mass society uh all but obliterated that all but obliterated the face-to-face human contact kind of world you know which which i think really did roughly exist before domestication you know it's it doesn't this sounded so utopian to me when i first discovered the literature you know first ran into by accident the whole uh anthropological deal but but it actually isn't and that's you know it's just it's just well known a lot of it i mean a lot of it isn't what i wanna i grant you we can't know you know precisely or even vaguely what what the consciousness was how satisfied people were in their lives we can you know we really don't know that but i mean but there was some pretty good uh non-lethal uh uh developments apparently you know some contacts that uh were worthy of uh lasting for quite so you know domestication i mean that's that's like one tenth of one percent of our of human species uh anyway you you know all that but uh so anyway yeah i i really i really value in some amount of cultures that i'm worried that we're encouraging on um i think there was a story recently about people in the amazon like taking away uh logos and yams and taking away the the tribe's bow and arrows that they wouldn't shoot at them but then but then leaving them to starve in this in this horrible way yeah um what was it gonna say um yeah also i mean i don't know how how how useful useful you think head vessels are but um in terms of in terms of like say we we we realized this like how to gather a live lifestyle but there were some people um still who had like the knowledge to create assembly lines for like things like penicillin and like er glasses and stuff um and they and they knew they they saw people like disabled or injured and they wanted they wanted to create some technology to tell these people and would that would that be like a target for direction or would that would that be like just like a consent thing you let them do that even if you worry that it it really helps start restart technology site technological society or something well i don't i think we'd have to uh if everybody could pitch in and try to find uh workable solutions as we go i mean it was i think there could be intermediate steps you know it's we don't want people unable to live without certain technologies to just simply die off but at the same time it's not clear to me that we need the worldwide grid to uh otherwise you can't achieve that i mean there are i think there are other methods you know some of which are sort of just simple things like you know when you're peddling a bicycle with the light you know you pedal in the generation of electricity to light the your taillight right or your headlight you do that with somebody who needs a respirator you know you don't have to have a whole world system going may be to fix you know to to help people you know in different situations and uh and as we kind of try to go away from the dependency which is which has been really pretty fatal you know something like that whereas it isn't just a blanket theoretical rejection overnight or you push a button and it so it's something else i mean that's the not that isn't quite a fair character i don't think of the primitives thinking i'm i'm from uh no sure sure it's just yeah it's a funny hypothetical like thousands of years in the future um i don't know i guess i mean my ideal feature is is have is like a is a prototype society that that gives that manages to um like um conscientiously just decide not to use technology badly and i know that doesn't um that's not you don't see that as possible but um but like gabe's enough um i don't know i see like in the in the like labor movement philosophy of like like if animals have um find a use value in the lands that that that we can just like give them like give large areas to re-wild and um i i i would want people i would want people to have the option of of um of being able to live like in their country and get and risk getting attacked by those or something but um yeah where are you that doesn't seem like that goes against the logic of domestication you the only thing that was left for indigenous people is the most inhospitable places on the planet and you know same goes for other species you know that's why extinction is is just running riot and one species after another is either gone or threatened with extinction that's that's the logic of it it's yeah we can dream free spaces for somebody or another but what what would you you know where would that come from where would you find the basis for that inside this system which is so well enveloped i would i would be aware of it i mean don't get me wrong but it's just hard to see if there's a solution within within the system okay yeah definitely um uh so i've i've gone through all my questions i've got i can i can give you one more school um but if you if you need to go or anything you just just like just let me know um i was interested there was a podcast you did um for i think wild oak or something i can't remember the name um and then it was about lots of topics like humanism and um and uh one thing that came up was veganism and then and then there was an interesting response uh by the person who sent me your email and uh this person who runs the big vegan work vegan economics primitives website dot wordpress.com or something um they they did a long um response to some of the points that were brought up and then they their their ideal future is is is them is people like foraging and uh pants only and i think his hand together isn't using fire but um just conscientiously choosing not to hunt animals and um i guess i i don't i don't personally think that i you could you could plan that diet very well with like uh b12 work without fortified foods and stuff and i think i think duckweed now we found out has has been twelve so if you if you live somewhere there's duckweed you could maybe do that but him um but i guess i get another so under the hypothesis goal that might might reflect the modern world is um if you if you knew that you could get all the nutritional needs you needed as a sensitive um life um would you and you knew there wasn't gonna be warfare you knew you had you could maintain the skills of one thing if you needed to go back to that and would you actually choose not to add animals as like just like living like communicating with them as like like seeing otters in the wild and stuff but just choosing choosing not to not sound do you think that is do you think that would be like an ethical responsibility what do you think um if you knew that you could could survive perfectly fine i was like lower hours it's rather nice yeah yeah i wouldn't uh argue against it i mean if that's uh it's conceivable and uh i think you know how to gather life was more gathering than hunting but still uh maybe that would be more ideal if if you're trying to learn anything from the record it it was i mean that's it's kind of it's a bit hard to imagine that in terms of our uh evolution but it sounds nice yeah yeah it's a nice dream um i guess yeah i don't know like because i um i mean i i mean i come up against people um who are like really invested in in like in just like eating meat because it's their culture and eating these horrible like product reformed animals and and then i think it's i think it's interesting to see like i mean i i use the argument of we have all these like greenhouse vegetables we have like thousands of vegetables we can very very diet now but um but uh even even if we went back even like even if we were back to grandma's first life and we could um so i'm just gathering um uh and then you have a nutrition need to be done i think that would be like some ethical responsibility there to just like to embody this like more compassionate um lifestyle and then yeah i think like your values i think that's a very worthwhile to think about okay cool you know that's good i think um other people will be interested in that and then yeah i think that was all my questions do you have anything you want to say anything no questions today but yeah really good i'll then i'll type up some of your responses into an article and i'll i'll make this two videos on oh okay okay okay we can talk again yeah that'll be great nothing all right thank you man you too have a good one

2021-08-08 02:00

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