2020 Innovation Conference: Hindsight is 20/20: Tech Disruption in Batteries
And i have the great privilege, of introducing. Our next speaker. Which is tom collette. So tom paulette, has over 30 years of experience. In. Automotive, manufacturing. And batteries, and was former, business development head of magna international, which is a major automotive supplier. And now is chief operating, officer, at a startup, called zeta energy that is producing a revolutionary. New, battery, technology. And uh i'm so excited to hear your presentation. Tom so i'm handing it over to you. Well thank you melissa, thank you for that nice introduction, appreciate it very much, as melissa said i spent a tremendous, amount of my career in the automotive, industry more than 30 years. Focused, on delivering, innovative, products. Into, the global automotive, market and namely a lot of those. That you may be aware of most recently, are really, evolving, around the the, major, trend towards either electrification. Or autonomy, functionality. And we're going to talk a little bit today about. An innovative, or breakthrough, a bunch of different innovative, or breakthrough battery, technologies. And i thought i might share a little icebreaking. Video with you here today and we'll start with that, and then i'll talk about why it's relevant, to some of the technologies, as we talk about what is it what is truly disruptive. And what is truly game changing as we look at the landscape. Of really, uh, creating, a real. Opportunity. For sustainable, energy. Across multiple, industries, but today's presentation, is going to focus more around the automotive, space. Well thank you i hope you found that a little entertaining, and it's going to be relevant. As we go through the presentation, and we talk about some iterative, improvements, in battery technology, at the cell level and we start to then move into. What we think could be some true gain changing technologies. As we get further into this presentation. So with that i'll share my screen. And so you know we look at that that little, i call it a tongue-in-cheek, little spoof on that video as we played it here today and we talk about 10, 000, cells. In an audible, in an automobile, ev battery, but that's really not unlike, what you saw in the first generation, of tesla vehicles in the model s, and we're going to get into a little bit more of a comparative. About. Existing, or, or or current technology, versus the idea. Of transformational. Or disruptive, technology. As a future play. Creating, a super growth market, in, in an area like automotive, electrification. And really i thought melissa did a wonderful, job talking about the definition, of innovation, or transformational. Or breakthrough. Innovation, and i won't spend a lot of time on it but they are very rare. And it's very important to really, separate, the difference, between, something like continuous, improvement. And, a technology. That that really could be game changing or breakthrough. And so the real difference is is that the idea, starts. Somewhere. Usually generated. By a need in this case, an opportunity. Of of sustainable, energy or a growth market like evie automotive. And then a lot of real hard work goes into, addressing. Some of the transformation. And we're going to talk a lot about that today, uh i liked how melissa also captured tom, thomas edison. I, i believe he was an icon in innovation, we're going to talk a little bit more about him as well. And so we we always have to look back at innovation. As we start to, really. Vision where we think the road map can take us, and so the battery is nothing new and in fact, uh the battery, uh, baghdad, battery was, was thousands, of years ago, a, simple form in a clay pot that was theorized, it was used to do gold plating, on different on different metals, early in its time. And then fast forward into more recent, history and we talked about, the name battery, and ben franklin, coined that name back in the 1700s.
Mid-1700s. Time frame. And then we continue, to fast forward on the continuum, and i love this little graphic across the bottom again it's this, it's this continuing, play on the double a battery that we have in this presentation. Uh as we look forward we start to look at rechargeability. And we start to look at the introduction, of uh a simple, technology, or, a, newer technology, 1800s. Like lead acid and rechargeable, lead acid battery. That's going to be sunset, closed here in the very near future and we're going to need to look for different, and safer chemistries. That will replace, not only high power high dense technologies, that we're going to need not only in, automotive, applications, but just about every, free power application, that's out there including, support for the grid and local energy independence. And so we fast forward, into. Really motivating, driving factors. In in the growth, of certain, product, areas like the laptop, computer and we look at batteries, like nickel metal, hydride, and then the progression, into the first introduction. Of, lithium, ion and lithium ion is not a new technology. Lithium, ions been around since. The late 80s early 90s, and it's been commercialized. In very high volume, since the early 90s time frame, and it's gone through a significant. Amount of iterative, development. And so now we look at the, the technologies. That are really going to transition, to take us into the next generation. Of electrification. Of both products technologies, and industries. And so as i said early on because my background, is primarily, coming from the automotive, industry, i really wanted to highlight. This new emergence. Transformation. Into the electrification. Space that's really been spurred by companies like tesla and we're going to talk a lot about. How that motivation. Really captured, the imagination. Not only of the public the buying public, for. An energy independent, or sustainable, energy type vehicle. An alternative. From fossil fuels. But also, how that really kick-started, the rest of the global automotive, market. And so we don't really have to question, whether we're going to see a transformation. Into electrification. We know it's happening. We know that it started very early on in the 1990s. With with really small demonstrations. Of technology. And then accelerated. Into the early 2000s, with the onset, of companies, like tesla. Who really, really, sparked the imagination. Of existing, and very powerful, global oems. That were all, very well aware of household, names. And and really kick-started, them to start, to envision, a road map, where they would have to introduce, a transformation. From ice engine. To electrification. And it wasn't a question, now as we look forward. In 201, 2020, time frame it's not a question, of if. Or even when. That that's been answered for us it's clear, the timing, is today. And we are really starting to see, a catalyzation. Out of companies, like tesla. And so i wanted to share a little bit about the timeline. And the transition. Into electrification. And utilizing. Tesla, is what i believe to be that catalyst. And so, you start to look at how, early, you know we're talking about ford motor company a company that's been around for a hundred years. And general motors and daimler, the the the companies that invented the premise. Of the of the petrol, gas engine automobile. And so we have this company that's founded in 2003. And brute, forced, in technology. And existing, technology. Into a an envisioned, electric, vehicle platform, and they did it in a very unique way, they utilized. Existing, technology. They envisioned, a road map where they could improve that technology. And brought forward. Utilizing, a brand new approach, to, automotive, ingenuity, to electrification. Many models since then and in just the last 10 years. Have expanded, those models. Four-fold. And have now gone from what was the first demonstration. Of a gigafactory. In in nevada. To what will be, their, next, several investments. In battery manufacturing. Most of that in-house. And that's going to be at the terra, level a terra factory. 20 times the capacity. Of what is existing. In the nevada, gigafactory. Today.
So I'm not going to talk a lot about the data, that's on this chart today, but i really want to reference, and highlight, the fact that you see every one of these hockey sticks whether it's in, whether it's in energy demand, or the increase, in in, gigawatt, output. That meets the need of electrification. Needs in the very near future, now and before 2030. Time frame. But also, the substantial. Revenue, market that it creates. What we're showing here at 170. Billion dollars is a pretty conservative. Estimate. And it's only addressing. The pac level the sell and pack level. Value, of the electric vehicle, if you include the entire, transformation. Up through and including, 2030, you're talking about a trillion, dollar, industry. And you couple that with the impacts, that are created with electrification. And then then the adaptation, of autonomous, functionality. You can quickly start to envision. Multiple. Service related. Industries, that are built around those two transformational. Technologies. Uh in a very exciting, market like electrification. And automotive, space. How do we get there and that's always a challenge, and so. You know there's a lot of there's a lot of thought process, around. Existing. Technology. Displacement. Of the existing, technology, and the time frame to do so, in, in my experience, in the history that, i've been involved in in automotive, it really comes. And it meets a nice pinnacle and that pinnacle is when you have a crossover, point. When you have a cost, parity, or you have a performance, improvement. Or you have a dependency, reduction, on something, that really, transforms. The industry. And so as we start to look at cost parity between a an, internal combustion, engine. And an an. An electric, vehicle or this case a battery electric, vehicle. We really start to see as the cost, of the cell pack level. Come down, over time which have really accelerated. Since the 2015. Time frame. We can really imagine, that there's cost parity between an ice engine and an electric vehicle, well before the 20 23rd, time, 2030, time, frame which is suggested. In the chart on the left, and so, by all, by all accounts. As we start to see the rapid improvement. Of technology. At the cell level, we expect cost parity, to really come to play in and around the 2025. Time frame. That really drives. The innovation, and growth that we saw on the previous slide and you start to look at, existing. Capacity, that's installed. A number of gigawatt. Facilities, that are up and running and more and more being announced. Daily to meet this demand. You got to ask yourself. Is it real do we see this growth do we see this realization, in this time frame, well let's take a quick look back and i can assure you that it is, and i can almost guarantee, that some of the predictions, that even elon, made this week was an exciting week, for us in the battery space, elon. Tesla had their board of uh their shareholders, meeting, and they also had their battery day and i'm going to share a little bit about that. With you here in a few more slides. So battery, prices, and this is important, to see, are really measured, not only at the cell level but at the integration, level within the electric vehicle we call that a module, in a pack. And so as you look at the transition. Of costs over time we're going to break that down in a couple of successive, live, slides here in a moment, you'll start to see why, we think that there's real opportunity. To meet that cost parity crossover, point. In an extremely. Uh short amount of time. Look at the reduction, in cost say since 2013. At the cell level we've halved it. And we expect that we're going to have that cost again within, the next two to three years. And so, as you start to look at just these are all different data points that i compiled together in this presentation. And and they all agree and that's a good thing when different data points start to agree and they and they converge. And they speak the same language, an incredible. Market opportunity. If. We have the right battery, technology. And so let's take a look at that for a minute, and so the previous slide talked about the cost at the cell level, here's a bit more breakdown, of what that cost really looks like and you can see. That staggering. Reduction, in overall, cost, i want to focus. On the chart on the left and i want you to focus. On the olive, green, cathode, cost and you'll see that over time as we start to improve.
Not Only the material, cost, of the cell but we've also taken dramatic, steps. To improve the manufacturing. Throughput, of the cell itself, whether that's at the pac. Module. But for sure. Those cost improvements, are represented, in output. Throughput. Process, improvement, process, speed. At the cell level, we can't lose sight, that at some point and we're starting to see that. The iterative, improvements, that are being made and they're rapidly, being made, across the entire, globe. You really have to focus on raw material, costs and that's why i wanted to highlight the cathode, in this slide. And we'll quickly look over to the right and you look at the expectations. Of cost and you see 68. Percent, the cost of a cell. Is, in, the raw material, and we're going to get into that a little bit uh. Next couple of slides. But think about 68. And then, and the chart on the left shows the cathode, being a majority, of those costs. And this is where this presentation, is going to focus. On where i think we can generate, true breakthrough, or disruptive, technology. So i thought it might be interesting. If you're not, really into battery, chemistry, or you understand. The cell itself. To talk about the different formats, of cells and then we can get into a little bit more around something that's really relevant to everybody. And it's the battery, that everybody's, talking about the battery that's in a tesla. And the next generation, of technologies. That will drive not only tesla but a whole industry in electrification. And so a cell can be made up of many different form factors a cylindrical, cell. Like tesla, uses and what was the first generation. Panasonic. Joint venture, an 18650. Lithium-ion. Cell, it could be a very small form factor, like a button or coin cell, and that could be something that's uh that that's utilized. In in a hearing aid, or a microphone. Or a small medical device. And then you start looking at more personal, products or, or or products that may, make you may be utilizing, today, power tools and others those are prismatic, cells. And then finally we're looking at large, pouch cell formats, pouch cells. Really, drive, the ability, to increase. The amount of material, the amount of active material. The amount of safe performance, between the atom and the cathode and i'm going to talk about that here in just a moment. So as we look at the number of cells and you'll reference, the, the humorous, video we had in the beginning. The beginnings. Of tesla. Also, used, thousands, of small cells. And they did that for a very specific, reason. They did that because that was a known entity, at the time. It was well understood. It was in high volume, it could be manufactured. At a very high rate of speed. And so what tesla did is found a way to ele. Very elegantly. Bring that into a pack module, solution, in the first model s, it wasn't, the most cost effective, solution, it wasn't by far. However. It was a solution, that brought that vehicle to market very quickly. And with a relative, amount of safety and so you've heard about, things that the tesla has gone through over time with with battery fires thermal runaway. Increased. Innovation. In battery management, systems, to protect, individual, cells and modules, within. Both the i'll, call it the beginnings, of, of their battery electric, vehicles. And how they then managed to iterate. Additional. Safety. And transform. Their their current cell technology, which is a large cylindrical, cell. Uh, into a larger, format. And really, optimize. And reduce the number of cells thus innovating, and reducing, cost at the same time.
Over About an eight year period. And so i'll share a little bit about that, in the battery day. And so this is a very busy slide. Uh i had an opportunity. With uh, with some very interesting, folks who wanted to challenge this slide yesterday. Uh this is a slide that was put together out of all the innovations, that were presented, on on battery day this week, uh elon, and, the top executives. Within tesla, promoted. Multiple, technologies. That together. Whether it's in the battery, itself, whether it's in the battery chemistry, whether it's in the battery manufacturing. The size of the battery. Or the integration, of that battery into the vehicle would reduce. The overall, cost, at the cell level. Of of the battery. Of what they are manufacturing. What they're paying for, by 56, percent. And so. It's it's really important. To really not just look at each, each one of these technologies. As an individual, innovation. But as a whole, you really start to see the value of the cost reductions, that were promoted, in the in the first several slides. So this really highlights, the growth. Of the opportunity, just in this slide alone when you start to look at energy demand, or battery, demand. Of tesla, and tesla, products alone, over the next, 10 to 15, years. They start, with about, a tenth of a terawatt. And that's where they're at today, and that's what they have forecasted. For all the models. Including. Cyber truck, some of the. Some of the heavy truck, developments. That tesla's, engaged, in today. But, fast forward, 10 years, and you see a hundred, time, capacity. Increase. And that's astonishing, when you when you think about the level of investment. And you think about the rapid. Uh, growth, rate that we see in this industry and this is just the point of view of tesla. And so. If you break down the battery and you start thinking about the anatomy. This is where we really get into the value, so we think about active material. And we think about a safe performance, of the battery. So a battery is made up of of two of, two current collectors. These, current collectors. Are are electrodes. The anode, a negative current collector, and a cathode, a positive, current collector. They're separated. They're separated. So that we can we can we can, we can both. Discharge. And recharge. Efficiently. Without, running the ground. And so we do that by using either a liquid electrolyte. Or in some cases we're going to talk about this here in the next slides, a solid state electrolyte. You can also. Envision, a solid, state electrode. We do this by moving ions, across the media. Thus discharging. And recharging. Energy, as we see fit, the charge on the the turn on the right really highlights. The previous slide, of, cathode, cost importance, in battery innovation. And, it's not just the cost it's also the safety, and so when we look at trying to drive to innovation, whether it's increasing. Energy density. Significantly. Improving, power, or we think about providing, a safer environment, for the cell itself. Reducing, thermal. Runaway we have to look at the chemistry, inside that battery and we're going to break that down over time. So that, the real. Real, game changing technologies. Are coming from, companies. That are that are that are currently, developing. Next generation, chemistry. And so those next generation, chemistries. Are really, driving. Innovation. Into both sides of the battery. They're reimagining. Both, the anode. And the cathode, and how they will safely. Exist together. In a cell, that will provide, not only. Higher power. Higher density. Longer, cycle ability, which which means, longer duration. Of use. It also means they have to do this in a very safe way and i chose. Uh the picture of the. Uh, pouch cell up in the right-hand corner and they drove a nail through it to prove that they couldn't short that a, real early prototype. In their particular, chemistry, and so i'm going to talk a little bit about the uniqueness, of the two sides of this slide next, and so if you start thinking about, everything on the left hand side, these are the these are the guys that are introducing. Technologies. That really, are, formulated. Around. Solid, state, technology. And solid state can mean a couple of different things as i mentioned earlier. Solid state might be a solid state electrolyte.
Which Provides, the barrier, between the two electrodes. Or, solid state could mean that you have solid electrodes. With a solid state separator, as well, and so each and every one of the companies. Energy solid power, quantum, scape. All address that solution, differently. And with different chemistry. And each and every one of them early in their development. Have claimed, that they have breakthrough. That they have transformational. Technologies. And as such as startup companies. Garnered, a tremendous, amount of attention and they garnered that attention not only. From, the automakers. That need this technology. They garnered, it from the current battery producers, the largest battery producers, in the world. Were also, very interested. On whether these startup, companies could progress this technology, across the finish line. The technology, companies on the right have addressed, the solution. A little, differently. They looked at the value of the three. They reimagined. The value, value of the battery by using very low cost, input. Uh elements, components, and chemistries. And i, i have the pleasure, of of, working, for and with one of those companies zeta energy, and i'm going to spend a little bit of time and talking about why we believe we have, that next generation, breakthrough, technology. And so each, each company on the right addressed. A critical, aspect. Of the cell's performance. And the cell's, cost, really highlighting. Two key factors. So. Really removing, themselves. From from the known technologies. Of lithium-ion. And looking at how they could take the technology. And expand, the performance, of the cell, all while providing, a safe environment, for the cell to operate for a very long time. And so, when you start thinking about, materials, like cobalt, and nickel. Which are very expensive. Thirty thousand dollars a metric, ton. Fifteen, thousand dollars a metric ton and you replace, them. With a material, that's a hundred dollars a metric ton or forty dollars a metric ton. Uh you know you you're, starting to see a transformational. Change at the cost side, of raw material, input. So i'll, transition, here to the next slide. And so i i don't have a tremendous, amount, of what i'll call data in charting, but i do want to share something with you that we're doing at zeta energy. And so really this is a section of a spider chart where we really highlighted, cost, energy. Energy density. And power density, and we compared that to a current state lithium, battery. And as i mentioned, what we've done at zeta energy is reimagine. Both sides of the battery. So we created. On the anode, side a carbon nanostructure. That we grow directly. On to the current collector, so we use a copper current collector. And in situ we develop, the growth of a 3d nanostructure. Carbon element, using carbon nanotubes. And then we we pair that with a very efficient. And very robust, and safe sulfur, cathode. And so we've taken. Uh, what was a problem, area which was sulfur cyclability. And using, advanced chemistry, and breakthrough, developments. We were able to stabilize. The sulfur, so that it would perform, for a very long time. Using a very low cost cathode. Using a very efficient, anode. Putting those two together, in an ultra low cost cell, we were able to come up with an innovation. That functions. Very. Very efficiently. At temperature. And cyclability. At very high charge rate and at very demanding, discharge. Rate. And we did that, addressing. Each. Individual. Element of the battery, and breaking it down. Taking a look at po, post problems, taking a look at future opportunity. And and developing. A cell structure. That really addressed, all the current issues that were available, that were happening with current state lithium-ion. Technology. And so. One of the things that we have to always remind ourselves, is that even when we have, breakthroughs, whether it's in chemistry.
Or Whether it's in physics, whether it's in processing. Just, having a good idea. At, an at, an electrode, level or a cell level, isn't, enough. To say that you can transform. Or game change an industry. Once you have that idea. You really have to take that idea, and you have to really. Work, very hard. With a very seasoned team of individuals. Who could take and rapidly, industrialize. That technology. And we were very fortunate, at zeta, to really bring on. Very, very, high level high talent. Uh very long tenured, individuals, in their fields. For one very important, reason, and that's because they saw the value. And what was invented. And knew what was invented was going to take a team of of well-established. Well-represented. Well-connected. Individuals. To get it across the finish line and when you can get it across the finish line. Then. You can really state that you've changed the game you've got a game changing. Transformational. Technology. Melissa, had thomas edison in there and she talked about his tenacity. I agree. Extremely. Tenacious. Brilliant. Driven. Uh, so, very focused. But, even, after. He had an invention. Thomas edison went to work for very long hours in his laboratory, i love this picture you see all the, you see all the fruits of his labor behind him this is this this is his environment. This is his workshop, it's his toolbox. Vision without execution. So, great idea, but a road map to get that idea, to a commercial, success is what it takes. And so it's a lot around hard work. After. You have an innovative, idea. And with that, with the implementation. Of that idea. You can transform. Not only an industry. You can transform, the need, of energy independence. And you can really develop. Rapidly, deploy, sustainable. Energy, solutions. And, we all know today. We, we need rapid deployment, of sustainable, energy you don't have to look any further, than what's happening, with with global warming the fires in california. To know, that with the right battery, technology. Not only can we drive, an automotive. Ev. Rapid transformation. But we can drive sustainable, energy solutions. Okay if i caught you right at the end there tom is that the last line. It is. Thank you, nice. All right so we only have a little bit of time for a couple of uh questions. And, we have one question right now from the, the q a board that asks. What about, the recyclability. Of batteries, like what what about the the pollution, that's endemic, suggests. Manufacturing. All these these batteries and disposing, of them.
Yeah And so that's a that's a great question, so the industry's, been looking at the responsibility. Of end of life. Especially, the electric vehicle industry for quite some time now and so, uh elon made a statement, in his battery day and i'll i'll use his statement that i'll talk a little bit more about it. Tesla's. Tesla expects, that they will be recycling. 100. The raw material. Out of end-of-life. Vehicles, at a sustainable. Rate within the next three to five years. And so they're going to consume. All of the valuable, minerals, the materials. The chemicals, that are inside, those batteries. And start up a sustainable. Recyclability. Process, they're not alone there's, many other global companies that are doing that as well, most of them are focused, on, certain elements, of a cathode, or certain elements of an anode, and they're turning those around, into brand new anode cathode, businesses. Okay so you see them as being largely recyclable. Oh absolutely, largely, recyclable. Uh there are there are other uses, we can we we can actually use them for a different purpose, if they have valuable, life left at the end of a, we'll call it the drive cycle. They could be you they could be they could be used as a power wall they could be repurposed. To support, grid support things of that nature but but moreover. I think the biggest, opportunity, is going to be the responsibility. To reconsume, those minerals and those materials. Gotcha. Now you had a slide that showed a bunch of different startups, and you mentioned they were all pursuing, different methods. Of developing, a better battery including different chemistries, and focusing on different parts of the battery, and i know your answer is going to be kind of biased here but trying to not be biased. How do investors. Navigate, that like what that would seem to be a very uncertain, environment, how do they decide which of these technologies, to back and are there even metrics, to look at. To know who to place those bets on, that's a great question, and so you know even, even myself, when i was leaving a large company. And i had to try to pick a winner, you know, my crystal balls just as fuzzy as everybody else is and so the one thing that i have to really rely on. Is what i know about truth and science, and so we really have to look at the data and we have to look at the data not, with a bias, we have to look at very, unbiased, data, and we have to challenge that data, and those, that really, have. Very robust, validation. Profiles. Are the technologies, that will succeed, in in melissa it's a great question.
The Global oems, because we were really focused on automotive the global oems, are hedging, they're making, several investments, in several technologies. They start with current state technology, of lithium-ion. But companies like daimler, and general motors, and volkswagen. They're investing in several new technologies. They're not sure, they have to hedge, what they can't do what they can't do is wait. They have to make sure that they've got investment, in all these technologies. The winner's going to emerge. And it might be multiple, components, of winners it might be a winner on the anode, it might be a winner on the cathode, but together. They're going to find a solution, that meets their needs, cost performance, efficiency. And above all else it's got to be safe. That makes a lot of sense, okay and we have another question from the q a uh, from, someone says here recently, john good enough said that he had developed a lithium battery technology, with substantially. Higher capacity, and faster, energy cycling rates, he also believes that sodium, can be used in lieu of lithium, do you have any thoughts on this. It can be and there are there are deployments. At the at what i'll call the, prototype, and demonstration. Level, uh you've got to start looking about, the ability. Uh and the efficiency. Of of of promoting. Transfer, of electronic, ions, of ions, and so there are many different things lithium, is phenomenal, for doing so, but there are other there are other materials that can do it, as well if not better, they've just not been developed. Uh with enough, detail, and with enough cyclability. To prove safe, and to prove efficient, for a long period of time and that's really where, where where the proof in the proven science comes in and good enough is talking about a couple of different things good enough is talking about, taking. Lithium-ion. Technology, today. Coupling, it with an ultra, safe, anode, and going to a, solid state format. And there's, three, significant. Innovations. There, all of which are difficult. To bring together in a single cell format. I'm not saying it's impossible. It's absolutely. Possible. I'm just saying it's going to take a lot of hard work to envision that at a commercial scale anytime soon. Okay. We also have a question here, how many years do we have before we have technology, for a week-long, cell phone battery. Great, question, very relevant, it gets right down to the personal use you know discussion. And so. I would tell you that the technology. That, i am working on instead of energy, is an is an energy. That uh takes the. We'll call it duty cycle or the cycle, use. Of the current battery, in uh in an eye in an iphone today. That's it's about a day if you're lucky right, and so what we've done today with specific, energy and specific, capacity. Suggests, that when we have our i'll call it an equal size, production. Rate pouch shell out there, we're going to be three to five days. And so three to five days, at a step in technology. With improvement. I would say that, less than 10 years, we'll have a battery technology, out there that runs for weeks. Wow. Cool. Okay i'm going to ask you one last question. Uh, in this process, of developing. Basically, a breakthrough battery, technology, to solve problems. You also have all these hurdles, right like demonstrating, and building scale and can it be manufactured, efficiently, because there's all these other places where it can go wrong, to your mind what are the what are the hardest.
Parts, Of that journey, and is having learned anything, about getting through that. Well yeah. And i think it's the most difficult. Uh, it's the most difficult, issue for most startup companies. It's going from lab scale, to demonstration. Quantities, at an industrial, scale. And so maybe one of the greatest, lessons we learned is to try to not reinvent. The equipment. It's to look to like industries, where we know they've had very high success. At very high capacity, and so, uh. We looked to we looked to the solar industry. For our anode, and we, and we and we looked to, the high. High volume mixing industry. For our cathode, and so instead of reinventing. Equipment. We're really, going to utilize, the knowledge base of industrial, giants, to help us deliver, those solutions, in like industries. These are very similar, processes. We may have to take change, time temperature, pressure. But why invent the reinvent, the machine, it's there, and so we can take we can take, years, if not 10 years. Out of the time frame to really bring it a very high commercial. Level. Standing on the shoulders of giants, right. It's the best way, okay. Well tom thank you so much for a fantastic. Talk.