Market Spotlight - Canada 2018: Advantages and Obstacles in Canadian Tech M&A
Welcome, to the world financial symposiums. Market, spotlight, webcast, series, today's. Conference, will start in a moment but. Wfs, is dedicated. To educating, technology. Leaders through, webcasts like these and the growth and exit strategies, conference series Eldon, London New York Silicon. Valley and other tech and financial, centres around the world the. Speakers, and sponsors, of these live events read. Like a who's who of industry, leaders to learn, more about our live events, for CEOs, owners, and investors or, to, access our library, of on-demand, spotlight. Webcast, covering. Markets like IT security, health. Tech gaming, and more please, visit, wfs. Dot-com. And now, let's join today's market, spotlight, webcast. Welcome. To our listeners from Canada and around the world on, behalf of the word financial symposium, I'm Bruce Lazenby, vice president, at the quorum group we. Have a terrific lineup today so let's get right to the agenda Patrick, Cunningham is going to give us an up-to-date by, the numbers, review, of what is happening for software and IT companies in Canada then. Will fall out with a fascinating, panel with code Cubitt and Debbie Weinstein, who I'll briefly introduce later, then. A great discussion with Mike schmaltz, who recently sold his company Digital, Extremes for, a reported, 100 million dollars we'll, talk to Mike about the M&A process and what is like when you're not the controlling shareholder anymore, then. Some closing thoughts and. Q&A, if we have time you, should be able to see the Q&A, frame on your screen so feel free to submit a question at any time so. Let's get started. Canada. Has been a hot M&A, market for, a long time, and corn has been there from the beginning over, 30 years now from. Our offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Ottawa we, get great vision into what happens in Canada and, with our quorum offices, in US, Europe, Asia and Australia we, get a global perspective as, well and that's, important, as we're going to see later on these.
Tombstones, Reflect, a fraction, of the dozens of deals that we've done in Canada over the years whether, you may recall that all we do is represent, sell side software and IT companies, so in every case here we represent, the seller that's all we do the. Seller logo is on the bottom of these tombstones and you won't recognize, most of them the, buyers logo, is on top and you probably won't recognize most, of them either you, can see we have buyers from Australia, China, Sweden, Japan as, well as kin of the United States of course over. 75%, of, our Canadian deals are cross-border. Last. Year there was thousands, of buyers globally, and finding. The right buyer I mean the right buyer is, recruited, here later from a year later from them and. Now for the hard numbers on what's happening in the markets today from, a Canadian perspective here. Is corn research analyst Patrick, Cunningham. Thanks. First looking. Back to the peak in 2015. Canadian tech M&A has closely tracks, the global market as a whole dropping, down from that peak with a lower deal volume, reflecting, the supply-side crunch, of fewer, overall viable acquisition, targets however. Investors, are working to refill that pipeline with, annual growth funding for Canadian tech companies hitting an all-time high last year as these companies reach for profitability, that may increase overall tech M&A volume going forward. Examining. Deals by transaction, size we, see that while the peak in 2015, took many smaller companies off the market those small deals still dominate, even with steadily increasing, value after 2015, with, that depleted, pool of strong tech companies falling, behind market, demand they, should be seen as a positive sign for still, independent Canadian, tech companies. Shifting. Now to the high center of the market private, equity firms dominated. The billion dollar plus mega deals with, the three most recent Canadian, tech mega deals featuring, PE backing, the. Largest of these deals came from top PE, Vista, equity merging, Toronto's dnh with portfolio, company mices based in britain to form finestra as a new, financial services, software, firm we. See a similar trend of PE dominance, through our top buyers again. Vista equity leads the way no surprise as they have consistently been the top acquire of technology, companies globally, for the last few years it's. Not just Vista though as four of the top buyers are private equity firms or their portfolio, companies including. Access information management, backed by Berkshire partners which, rolled up six Canadian storage and data management companies, in 2016.
And Another two are Canadian companies including, worldwide top strategic, require constellation, software and Telus, notice. However it that these top acquires did only 57 deals and, we have tracked over 600. Since 2015, there. Are hundreds, of buyers looking for Canadian companies so, it's hard to know your buyer ahead of time an advisor can be of help here, regionally. Ontario, leads the way in both total deals and deal per capita with, over 300 deals over the past three and a half years followed, by a Quebec and then British Columbia which punches above its weight in terms of M&A but, another fifth of Canadian deals happen, outside the three largest provinces, now. Let's take a look at some example, deals from across Canada. Speaking. Of deals from outside the largest provinces, we'll start with a very Canadian, deal out of Halifax, where sports league mobile app developer, buzzer apps was acquired by hockey tech giving, the worldwide leader in CAUTI, technologies. Eternity, mobile framework for Hockey League live videos stats, team information, and more, Toronto's. Multi-faced was acquired by French Beauty giant L'Oreal for its augmented, reality and, artificial, intelligence offerings, allowing. L'Oreal to push forward in this efforts to bring a are sick as medics and a good example of the global buyers to thrust early in. A. Complex deal involving, two Toronto Area, companies late, last year home improvement, workflow and lead management, staff sent us was purchased by point of sales financing, provider finances, backed, by financial, services tightened Goldman Sachs who became the majority owner of finances in the process both, Leo's floors on the same day can provide financing, with increased offering force big-box retail, store clientele, and this. Year montreal-based, aqua sauce world a three fin tech software company's investment. And insurance escrow, knows in québec City Toronto, based retirement, planning substitute. Eyewear and just, a couple blocks away in Montreal online. Financial analysis, providers plant in. Another finance, related deal remote deposit and image processor, Waterloo, based party M was, acquired for 70 million us by one of the largest cheque printers indicates, deluxe, shipping. To the IFC trend patent, technology commercialize. Afforded, health formula, while and picked up the schedule and highway traffic management technology, provider international, row dynamics, in April, 27, for over 47, million us for, over 63, million Canadians, giving, the intellectual, property forum priorities, in defending and tissue IOC, 10 and finally. Just last month in Vancouver, fiber wallets the digital scale for her aimed at the sharing and Giga cross was.
Picked Up by PayPal, for 400, million giving, PayPal localized multi currency payment. Capabilities, across more than 200, global mark now. Back to brisk with our M, thanks. Patrick well, I'm delighted to be here today with our panel. Debbie Weinstein, partner at the barge Weinstein, in Ottawa, as well, as code Kubek managing, director, of Estrela venture partners. Thanks. For joining us here guys and we're going to have some really good conversations but, we want to talk about the Canadian software, business. Debbie. You're probably one of the most recognized, if not most experienced. Transaction. Deal makers in Canada, you've, seen deals all across the world when. You think about Canadian. Software. And IT companies, what advantages, do you see that they might have, well. Thanks for that compliment, that shows you how old I am. There's a few key, areas that I'll. Highlight that, is, distinguished, from companies. Outside. Of Canada, probably. The, biggest reason. Or. One of the biggest. Benefits. Is the. Tax system and specifically. Refunds. Available, for eligible research, and development, whether. You're a Canadian, controlled. Private. Company, so a company, controlled by. Non-public. Canadian. Investors. Or. Whether you're even, a, non, Canadian. Controlled private company, something. Known as shred scientific. Research and experimental, development. Either. Cash, refunds, or credits are. Available for, your research, it's. A fully loaded cash, refund, so it takes into account the overhead, that an engineer. Takes. Up whether that's his share of the rent to share the back office services is, or. Her share and provides. Back to the company, up to about 30 percent of, eligible R&D. Which is a, while. It's a delayed on cashflow it's, it's. Obviously a big, cash flow. Advantage. For companies albeit. They receive, it post each year-end, the. Other couple. Other areas that I think are unique for Canada, although. Equally. Good in the u.s. is the. Diversity, of our employment, I believe. That in technology, and this is right across Canada, especially in the university, based cities, throughout. Canada, that we have a diversity, both, ethnically, and. And. Technically. That. Really, covers, every, element, of what I call the knowledge based. Ecosystem. Whether. You're a software, company a, cloud. Company. An. Internet, of Things company. A. Device. Company, the diversity. Of employment, in really every, major, city in Canada, and every almost every province in Canada is really, first-class, and I've experienced, that firsthand selling, you. Know companies, in Saskatchewan. To Siemens last year, companies, in Montreal, to Logitech, last year companies, in New Brunswick in, prior, years to, Salesforce, so really the diversity, and the. University. System is is is excellent. Just. A couple other things I would highlight. Doing. Business as a Canadian, company when, you do business internationally, can. Be quite good especially when, we have some. You know political stress. In the world these days I, always. Think of Canada as being agnostic and, so you can sort of be the Switzerland. Generally. And you. Can make yourself look like a, US company by having a u.s. sub and. Formatting. Yourselves, that way if it's important, but, if you're in security, defense. Affairs. Of national importance, and you're trying to sell into Europe Britain. Even over, in Asia being a Canadian company which. Doesn't have the long, arms, that a lot of the US federal, regulatory regimes, have can. Be a real benefit. I think, as as a Canadian, company. And then lastly we have a good stock exchange well you know well well we all know that 19, out of 20. Successful, companies probably get sold and that, other one goes public we do have a good. Build of. Toronto. Stock Exchange and other newer, exchange, that really help. Leverage. Public. Monies when when a company, is on that path so those, I would say are the some. Of the key advantages that, I see, that. Was great Debbie thanks so much for that code. You. Were actually recruited, to Ottawa because. You spend most of your time investing. In Silicon, Valley or northeastern. United States and. We wanted to get sort of that American, view of things up here we. Are now on fun to a, very, successful, fun. One what's. Your perspective of this you heard what Debbie had to say what your perspective of the advantages, of being a Canadian, software, couple sure. I think, I, think Debbie kind of highlighted the number one aspect. Which is non diluted funding right so in addition to shred, there are numerous other, three-letter. Acronyms. For free. Money if you will from the government whether it's OCE, or FedDev grants, IBI, and still one those. Are all. Non-dilutive. Sources. Of capital that, just make filling a company more efficient at the early stage so so, as an early stage investor, we, think a lot about efficiency.
Of Capital, towards. Milestones. In company, creation the, other, area that I would highlight is, really, around the talent, and. The off, of that talent so if you if you compare an engineer, in Canada, with you. Know starting, out with California, engineers. In Canada roughly half price, and. I would you, know tell you that yeah, Silicon, Valley does not have a monopoly on, innovators. In or does it have a monopoly on really smart people so that. In itself is arbitrage. But. Even if you compare, Canada. Writ large with some. Of the other major cities in the US the tier two so New York Boston, Austin. Chicago. Etc we're. Still about. 35, to 40 percent. Lower, cost, for an engineer, fully. Loaded and that's, that's even before you consider cash. Back from. That from the government related to shred, claims so, that's that's significant. The. Other thing is that you, know just software, companies, in general bit, more broad of a comment but you. Know less, than 10 years ago software. As a service in, terms of the, products that were in market is a less than a 10 billion dollar business and today. Last, year was over 60 billion dollars so whether. You're growing a software company in Canada, or anywhere in the world. It's a massive, untapped, market. We expect, it to be an. Order of magnitude bigger, within, the next 10 years and so, that sort of doesn't mean that, means it doesn't matter where you start your company if, you can do a cab in a capital ficient way you've. Got a head start against, everybody, that's. Great insights now. It's, not all fun. And roses all the time there's got to be something downside. To to, trying to launch your company here in Canada. Debbie. What have you seen oh, well. I think code, and I and and others on the panel would agree that. In. You know in my view there. Isn't, as robust, a venture capital, market, as we, would find in the US we've, got entities. Like codes, and we've got some very big players like OMERS and. Numerous. Quebec funds and and other VCS, but. The the depth, and breadth, of, venture. Capital, of sort. Of growth money just isn't there on the private equity side the. Other I'd, say largest. Challenge. Well we have a great. Diversity. And, strength, in, employment, I, fundamentally. Believe that the c-suite in Canada, is as is very thin, relative. To the number of company, opportunities. And I. Think a large reason, for so much ma in. Canada. Is. Really. The, the gap, in. Having, grown, cereal. Executives. Not just serial entrepreneurs, because a lot of those exist and there fantastic. But, serial, entrepreneurs. That. Can lead to serial, executives, and I. Really, think Canada, lacks a. Relative. To other benchmarked. Against, other countries, so to, me those, would be I think the two biggest challenges that I see facing. Canadian, tech, companies. Well. The lack of capital code that's one problem you're trying to solve, what. Are the challenges you see for for some of your portfolio, companies or for the Canadian government yeah. I think you know I think Debbie had it right on the head lack of capital and lack of talent are obviously, number one and number two for challenges, there's, a bit of a cultural, mismatch or difference between, Canada. And the US in terms of conservatism. Also. I think that plagues us a little bit however. I think there is a silver, lining here so by. Example, in 2012. Less than 50 percent of the rounds venture, rounds in Canada, included. US investors, in 2017. More than 80 percent of the rounds included, US investors, and over. That same period the, amount of dollars, coming into Canadian startups, has, almost, tripled and so, what that means is that investors. From around the world are recognizing. The advantages, of Canada, and are pouring more dollars, into the ecosystem I. Also. In not. Necessarily, a challenge but I also I sort. Of have glass. Half-full mentality. Where the, momentum is building and the number of executives, that are exiting, in Canada at significant. Multiples are. Developing. A much. More risk tolerant, attitude and, I think the future bodes well in terms of repeat, entrepreneurship, and. Continued, growth in the, sector. Yeah. The one thing I'm seeing as well as a lot of those executives, who maybe previously, might have cashed out and retired early now.
They're Staying in the game and they're coming back with more, capital more experience, to get their next round, up now. As. You guys know when somebody, raises money they've got to pay it back at some point and that leads to one of two options for liquidity event either an IPO which are few, and far between still, or. M&A. And that's, where for forum cuts, it chief, so code, when you're talking to your companies about. Getting. Ready for that M&A event, or that liquidity event, is there, one or two things you tell them to be to be thoughtful, of early on I, mean. The big. Cliche but the old adage is you should be you should be bought not sold, you, know our job is to try and prepare companies, to. Optimize. Value, for shareholders, so. We spend most of our time building, that out there's obviously situations. Where, you. Know things go sideways you're, not capitalized, well enough etc, and you need to find a good. Advisor to, help you navigate those, waters there, is a an, interesting third, approach that's happening, in my view and that is partial. Exit because. Of the amount of capital on the sidelines, we're, seeing. Secondaries. Happen to have this multiple times in our own portfolio, where, the founders are compensated, early. But, also motivated, to stay on and so, it's kind of a halfway exit, and I think that's a simply. A vagary of the amount of capital on the sidelines, today. Okay. Good point Debbie. You get involved in papering, a lot of these deals sometimes, at the. Back end and due diligence in other areas and I'm sure you've seen. Disasters. And some of those and others that have been very successful what. Guidance would you give to companies that they're contemplating stepping, into that M&A. Phase, well. I think, the. Most important, thing is to. Understand. Why they're exiting, you. Know most, companies are actually built to grow not built to sell and. In. Addition to you know having someone knock on your door and handing you a big check I think. You've got to ask yourself can I reach new. Markets can i scale do I have the operational, expertise, to, remain successful, how. Important, is it for me to remain independent and if all those things lead, you to a merger, or a sale. Timing. Is everything. I tell. Clients from, very early on I just had a call with one today go. Ahead and look look for similar deal valuations. Have a Google Alert on your competitors, especially those, that have been bought up by private equity or. Consolidators. So. That you know when it's a favorable, time to go to market versus an unfavorable.
Time To go to market. What. Impacts, your value you know what's, your growth like what's your recurring revenue where can you save money have, you got a good management team in place because. Buyers, look, for a whole combination. It's. Not just what's on the financial, statements. But, but there's a lot more to it and and, so you've got to sort of know why, you want, to do it why you can't, grow your company bigger, and. What. The best timing is to be. To. Be the company, that is you know sought, out for purchase, because of the timing of the market and I think that's very important, lastly. I'd say is get. To know you know lawyers, your, your investors, quorum, and others to. Really understand. The transaction. Timeline, the. Transaction. Elements. The process, the approach, the alternatives, and really. Anyone. Experienced, in MA like. Those of us on this, panel, can. Speak to what, kind of approach to take whether they go narrow whether they go broad if someone. Comes. In an inbound LOI do, they go out and and seek, alternatives. Or an auction, and so, just. Educating. Yourself early often, and being very educated, in your market, on the M&A on. The M&A front and what's, going on to me are the real, keys before you even get into all the legal stuff some. Great advice. Debbie, Weinstein, both, Cubitt give, very little time today really appreciate it you guys have a great. Rest of the day thank. You Bruce thank. You my. Next guest is Mike Smoltz president, of Digital, Extremes a, gaming a company. And London Ontario founded. In 1993. And, with, a successful, exit, just. Not too long ago Mike. Welcome to the show thanks. For having me it's a pleasure so. Mike you guys built a great company in Canada, what we just hear the biggest advantages. And maybe disadvantage. Of doing this in Canada like. You mentioned the company is now, 25. Years old and way, back then when my brother founded, the company the, video game industry really. Didn't, exist in, Canada and it was only in. The early, to to mid, knots, where, the, the video game company our, video game industry really started to go mainstream so. You, know in those early years it, was you. Know it was fighting, you know perceptions. Whether as. To whether, this was even a viable, industry, a viable, company and then you, know at ten years into it and after the success that we had with Unreal. Tournament you, know we were kind, of very, much ahead, of the game and the. The rest, of the the global video game industry, was was transforming. Was. Transforming, very very, quickly that, was part of the the early challenge is just understanding. What, to do and how to do it and then as the industry started to get structured. And I would say kind of past, 2003. But, what. Would be the Xbox, 360, generation, which really drove. Video, gaming I think into, the the, mainstream, was, us. Kind. Of keeping up with the growth of the industry and, keeping. On top of things and. Ensuring. That we were scaling, up our team properly. So that was a challenge but I would say that being a Canadian.
Software. Developer. Particularly. Over these past 10, or 15 years is, government. Support. In terms of you know their programs, and their focus on on media. Production, digital media, software and technology, in general both, at the provincial and at the federal level have. Really. Helped us make, it through the, the tougher. Times and, you. Know in video games it very, much is a hit driven industry and, when. You have a hit things, are going very well but when you're searching for that hit things, can be somewhat, difficult so, having. Some. Of the tax credits that we've had were helpful, as we're growing the company and you. Know without that I think, we would have had a much, tougher, time like. It more, recently what we're seeing is that Canada is of a destination, from an immigration point of view you. Consider, that an, advantage, do you actively, seek people. From other countries to come and work in in Canada, yeah. Absolutely. We've always searched, the. Globe for, the best, talent, and we've hire regularly. Out of United, States we. Hire regularly. Out of Europe. Or anywhere, where we can reach talented, developers, we have some, from Asia from, South. Africa, from Australia. We're. Really a quite, an eclectic group, of. Developers. Here but you. Know I would say that you know we very, much view Canada, as a very open, country, but you, know these past 10 years I see it becoming increasingly. Difficult to. Bring. In skilled workers, with the amount of red tape that, has been imposed, on us and the, conditions, for getting Canadian. Work permits for foreign workers as has become difficult so, I think. There's there's an issue of reality, and perception there, in terms of how open Canada, is so if, there is a message there to you, know the federal. Government. I would say that, that, they could help companies. Like ours, perhaps. Not, the googles but some of the the somewhat. Smaller technology. Companies by, making that process of bringing, in skilled people a little bit easier so Mike, when you decided it was time to seek a liquidity event after, with all those years how, did you find that process. It. Was entirely, new to us and quite. Honestly we did not really. Know exactly what to expect I think, what, we did expect is that we would have, a chance to present, our. Company, its, performance. To key. Potential. Acquirers, in, the video game industry and, working. With quorum we were we were very satisfied that we had had, a chance to meet with a lot of other larger, video game publishers. We, weren't sure that that's ultimately, who, we wanted to sell to, but, we had a chance to have some very very good discussions, with all of the major players and then when we finally settled down with a short list of people who we thought were really serious and who we thought was a good fit it was a long tough.
Negotiation. And I'm, glad we came through it but it was certainly a learning experience, for, all of us the timetables seem to be a lot longer than we expected and, things, that we thought were would, be simple, were, hard it was definitely, good to have, an experienced. M&A, consultant, along the way to to, give us advice to let us know when we thought things were going off the rails to say no this is perfectly, normal, we, need to just, work through this here's what we can do so like I said it was, unlike anything that we'd ever done in business, before a. Tremendous, learning experience and. Ultimately. It. Worked out very well, for us. Well. It did work out very well you know as reported, a 100 million dollar a transaction. And. That's, that's as we know sort of the beginning of, the process because, now you're into an extended relationship, with in your case a Chinese, buyer I think, a lot of entrepreneurs are curious about what it's like when you, used to be controlling, shareholder, and now you're not how's that experience, been for you. Yeah. It's been it's been very, very good for us to be quite honest and I think that was part of our criteria, and, selecting, a potential. Purchasers. That we felt that our ability, to create. Value, in this industry was. Largely, attributed. To, our. Ability, to make, our own creative, decisions, to get. Emotionally. Behind. The, types of project, so that we could buy. In and rather than a work-for-hire. Type. Outfit, where we're, just 9 to 5 is that were or a passionate, crew were committed, to making, certain. Types of games we feel that we're very good, at it and as. A result we didn't want to, have a purchaser, that was going to tell us what, to do or how, to do it and that the. Key to ultimately. Being successful, in continuing, to to to run a successful business was. Having. That sort of autonomy, so that was definitely, a key point, you know the disc since that we had our current purchasers, uh Leo. Technologies. They, set all of the right things and it's, now been two and a half years later and, they've, been true to their word we've, been fully empowered. Since, then to, do, what we want to do in a way that we want to do it and quite. Literally I think for most of the people who work here who, were. Here prior to the acquisition and, are. Here now they would probably, say. That nothing, feels any different. And that's pretty extraordinary I think because I we, had heard stories of other, video, games being purchased companies. Being purchased in. The, industry both in Canada and United States where, the parent company comes in and starts, making, significant. Changes. Administrative. Changes, creative, changes they start appointing, new people. To keep positions, and then start changing directions and as a result I think, you lose, some of the magic that was created, and, we. Didn't want to see that happen and it hasn't so, it's been a good two and a half years I think. For, the benefit of our.
Parent Company you, know we have grown our flagship. Game or, frame significantly. Since their acquisition. Of us and and. They're pleased with us we always have pleasant conversations. And I think they they respect. Our processes. And our decision-making, and our ability to create value, so, that for. Us was the. Ideal. Scenario. Well. You you made a good point when you said that you know at, the end of the day you get to pick the buyer you have. Two processes, run properly then you've got three four or five buyers, at the table and you get to pick the deal you want it doesn't always mean the most valuable. And financially, it's the one that's got the most value to you as the founders so congratulations. On what sounds like a great take oh thank. You very much and we weren't sure that entering. Into the process, that, that buyer even, existed, so it was a very pleasant surprise that we, were able to get. Hooked up with me you and to be able to have those initial, conversations about. You, know what they valued, and what we value then, we could come up with a, common. Theme and as a result, you know they've got a particular. Strategy. For, developing. Global video games and our, strategy. As we've, always had it fits, in very nicely with there so we didn't have to change anything well that's terrific Mike look, at thank you very much for your time we really appreciate it it's. Been my pleasure very, much appreciate it. So. Mike I should also explain to our listeners. That that huge salmon in. The photograph is because you've just returned, from Langara, fishing, lodge on the northern tip of Vancouver, Island quorum. Has this fun tradition, of taking the selling CEO on the quorum deal maker on this amazing adventure that, looks like it was a very successful for you so. Let's boil down what we've heard firstly. Virtually. Every software company, in Canada will be sold either to the public in an IPO or, as, in 95%, of the cases to a private buyer so. You should be thinking of this early, in the business although the sale might happen years, later or in the case of Digital Extremes after, more than 20 years it's. A very personal choice at. Quorum we prefer to engage with companies well before they're ready to sell so we can provide some input along the way, secondly. As code and Debbie said timing, is everything when, the company is ready when the shareholders, are ready but. Very importantly, as well when the market is ready we. Were selling companies in 2008. And I can tell you it was a completely, different market back then volume was down valuations. Were down it was a tough time to sell your software company in, 2018. On the other hand we've got record cash on buyers balance, sheets so valuations. Are at record highs and of course so is M&A activity, as. This, is the summer's market, we also see buyers getting creative, as code mentioned, with deals where buyers might take out some old shareholders, in creative ways or find, other ways to put creative deals together when. You have global buyers at the table at the same time in an auction environment. With a professional, advisor you can get real competition real. Creativity, and gray valuations, as Mike. Pointed out at the end of the day you get to pick you the buyer you want even. If you've never heard of that buyer before things. Can work out really well Mike. Told me before that they now have three people, in London and they, feel better ready to attack the market than ever before a sale. Often doesn't, mean the end of a vision it can mean the acceleration. Of the vision and often, with the existing management team while, taking some money off the table and some. Time to go salmon, fishing as well, well. That's a wrap I see, we have run a bit over and won't have time for questions but we will respond, to the questions that we've received privately. Thanks. For joining us today and thanks, again to Patrick Debbie code and Mike for their great insights enjoy. The rest of the day. We. Hope you enjoy today's online symposium. If you, have any questions, not answered, please submit them to info, at, wfs. Comm, we. Look forward to seeing you at one of our upcoming live. Events and, a city near you to. Register for these live events view. Upcoming webcast. Topics or hear, rebroadcast. Of this or other markets, spotlight, events, please, go to wfs, comm thank. You for attending today's webcast.