Legislation, Policy and Practice for Digital Inclusion Panel Discussion
Good evening everybody. Welcome. Today in, this, wonderful, venue here at UNSW as. We have a bit of a conversation around, legislation. Policy, and governance so, to, get us going what, I'm going to do is I'm gonna ask each, of. Alastair. McEwen Lainie. Feingold, and. Rosemary chaos to. Introduce. Themselves to, you and provide you a bit of background of who they are and. Maybe why they're on this panel, with us so. With that in mind I'm gonna pass. To Alastair to start. Thank. You Stewart and good. Evening everyone. It's a great honor and privilege to be here I to acknowledge, that we are meeting on the land of the gadigal people I, pay my respect to their elders past and, present and I pay my respect, to Aboriginal, people, who are completing here today. My. Role as Israeli, Disability. Discrimination Commissioner, is, to ensure that people with disability. No, matter where they live in asplenia have, their human life, completely. Fulfilled, on an equal basis to anyone, else in the community and. Given. The rapid. Development, of, technology, to the point where many in the community take, technology for granted we're, also seeing, in. My view a widening. Divide between the, technical technical, have and the, technical, don't, have and by. That I mean people with disability, disability are. Being. Excluded. From often. The most basic, forms of technology that so many others take for granted. In. Australia, we have a framework of discrimination. Lord and the. Human, rights framework, particularly. Through the Convention, on the Rights of persons with disabilities so. We have a framework however. What we are seeing in, a, lack, of practical, implementation. And uptake, by, government, service. Provided, and the wider community in, ensuring, that any form of technology is accessible. For, anyone to, use. What. I hear every day for my colleagues and really disability. Is that that are frustrating. They, are particularly frustrated. At the level, not. Being consulted, and, being included. At the beginning of the design process, for technology. She. Made that said we had much to improve we need to ensure that, developer. And, organization. Don't just assume they, know what's been for, years we've had what I would call a charity. Model of for, people with disabilities, where they, have expected. To be able to use what they had given rather, than being at the center, of the design. So. We do have much to do we, do also have many opportunity. Technology. Has enabled. Many, people with disabilities to lead very independent. And meaningful, live, the challenge, relaxed here and is brilliant, to make sure that anyone, he was picked about their disability. Can used any form of technology thank. You, thank. You very much mr.. Laney. Who's come, all this way from San Francisco, United States so she's been here for a few days now Laney, why don't you introduce yourself, I'm not sure everyone knows who you are they're obviously some people here who definitely know who you are but give.
Us A bit of your background. Okay. Well first. Of all thank you so much for having me and for coming and it's really great to be here I'm, Lanie Feingold Stuart, said, you, know why you here, and I think, I'm here because accessibility. Is global, and, disability. Community is global, and we have so much to learn from, each other and share with each other one. Little, thing is that when I was here last year in Sydney and, you, did the welcome, welcome. To. Country I said, wow that's a good idea we don't do that in the US and I had started I do it in every presentation, that I do and, I even do it in the webinars, and. It's. Gotten such a great response, and, I say I learned that in Australia you. Know we, have native people in America too that don't get acknowledged, so I want to thank you for teaching, that I'm. A disability rights lawyer and I. Work with the blind community in, the United States since. 1995. On. Various, technology, issues I started with talking, ATMs, and I worked on accessible, websites, and, mobile app accessible, pedestrian signals. Talking. Prescription, labels and I, do all that in a collaborative process, that. I've. Developed, along, with members. Of the blind community I work with we, call it structured, negotiation, and. Basically. For the, short version, of it is that it's just a way to bring, people into. The room and solve. Problems using. A strong legal foundation. There's, really two parts like Alistair said there's the framework, and there's implementation. And in the u.s. we have a strong foundation. We have a strong framework and I've, been really lucky to be able to work, with. Disabled, people, based. On that foundation, in a collaborative way which, puts, disabled, people front and center which, many law processes, don't. So. That's, what I do and I, wrote a book about it and. It's. Just been great being. Able to share, it with people, in. The US and people. Around the globe and, I feel very welcomed, and, and. Friendly. With Australia, so thank you all. Thank. You very much Lanie, now. I'm. Just gonna hope there before I go to rosemary so Delaney does have a few of our books here with her today as well so if anyone is actually interested. In picking up one of those books she'd be happy to. Tell. You want to cost, after. The session when you can. Further. Joe I'm. Getting out there now because, hopefully. By the time we get to the end this people will just be having a mad dash up to the stage to want to grab a book off you so just. Getting that there before I forget as well thank, you No thank you very much laying rosemary. I'm, gonna pass across to you. Thank. You Stuart I'm. The. Current, interim, director of the disability, innovation, Institute, at, the University of New South Wales, so in lots, route lots of respects I'm focused. On the future I'm. Not focused. So much on. What. We have in terms of technology now but I'm focused, on. What the technology will be that, is coming and. The. Reason I'm focused, on that is because the Institute, and the Institute's, role at the university, is to. Ensure, that, disability, is, part. Of that research paradigm, that the. Research, that has been done for. What's to come is, inclusive. And, accessible. That. Doesn't mean that I don't have a. Focus. On what, is happening now I'm a human rights lawyer I have other hats I'm, the chairperson of the Australian, Centre for disability law, and as. As of. January, I will be a member of the UN Committee on the rights of persons with disabilities.
So. Yes. I do have to focus on what's happening now and, where. Our policies, our programs, and. Our. Legislation, is, effective. Or not effective in. Ensuring access, to digital, technology. But. For me I think. One. Of the really important, bits is ensuring. That our. Student. Bodies. Are. Given. The skills from, the word go. To. Understand. Human. Diversity, and its broader sense and, so. When. Researchers. Are doing research. They. Include, people, with disability, and the concepts. Around disability. In. That framework. Of thinking and. So. What their research, comes, up with what. That then leads into in, terms of design, and production and. Ultimately. Something. A, widget. Of some, description. Is. Inclusive, and. Recognizes. The. Full continuum, of these of the human condition and so. Accessibility. Doesn't, become, something, that. Secondary. That's. Add-on, that's. Other, it. Becomes an, integral, part, of. We've. Been doing this for a while and because. We've been doing this for a while there's been some pretty good milestones, we've had over there over the years can. You maybe give us from your perspective, what do you think some of the big milestones we've had over the last, several. Or longer, years, towards, achieving, this goal of a more inclusive, society. Thank. You Stuart one. Of the big milestones that we are celebrating, or rather recognizing. This 25th, anniversary, of the, Disability. Discrimination Act. Here in Australia, for, the first time 25, years ago people. With disability, had a uniform, national law. Which, was designed to, ensure that they were able to be able to access. Things. In the community that, other people people, without disabilities, were able, to access, so, primitive. Education. Employment, nearly. Most thing that we take, for granted in, everyday, life, it's. Fair to say I, suppose, in the last 25, years we've seen some progress. Mostly. Around what, I would say what people can see so such as the built environment. Accessible. Transport, what we haven't seen there is a lot or a significant, progress around, the thing that you can't really, see all better, just describe dude abstract. Or intangible so, we still have a big issue of lack, of education, for people with disabilities. In particular children, but. Also relevant, for tonight, we're, not saying, a great take-up, of. Digital. Development. With. People. With disabilities in mind so a milestone, so, at least 25, years of the Disability, Discrimination Act. Another. Milestone is, the the. Convention. On the Rights of persons with disabilities and. For. The first time they. Put, the convention, that we develop. With people with disability, a part. Of the the, development, and it, had them in, mind first, and foremost, at the centre rather. Than making. Or rather for. People with disability, to have to fit in with the environment it recognized. That the environment. Needed to accommodate day so, for example people, with, disability, accessing, education in. A way that best meet their needs so you, can see some of these milestone, that, said another, milestone is, a recognition. Through. The National, Disability Insurance Scheme, that. We need a, person-centered. Approach to ensuring, that people with disability. Can live independent. Lived in the community, that. All said we as I said we still have a long way to go for our government, and for our Stovall, divided, and company.
To, Recognize, that, if, you don't include, people with disability, at the beginning, of the design process we will have many challenges. Rosemary. So also, obviously touched on a few there from the Australian perspective. Any. Additional. Ones that you, could, add to it or think. Of from a milestone perspective, for you as well um. Well. I mean obviously but, I won't jump, on my, knees, parade. But the ATA, had, a significant. Global. Influence. Though. In a very you, know Western. Kind of way I should. Say um but. She. Da. Da was, you, know definitely. The. Blueprint. For our Disability. Discrimination Act. It. Had a huge, influence, on. The. EU directives. Back. Into faith 2000. The Equality, directive, back in it in, 2000. So it, influenced. Also. It influenced, a lot of the disability. Discrimination acts. The UK, Act was, heavily influenced. By the, Americans. Sorry. By the US. The. Irish were more sensible, and they went with our construction. Of the. TVA. And. All. Of those acts, have had their problems. The, ADEA got. Itself. Caught up in its. Definition of, disability. To. The point where you know so. Much of the litigation was about whether a person, was a person, with a disability under, the terms. Of the Act um, that also caused problems in the UK, the. EU their. Directive, was only around employment. So. There. Are milestones but, there's also Dean, yeah. We've taken steps forwards, but. Those steps have been, disabled. In some way. I, think. Being. You. Signing. Up to the convention is a significant. Milestone. So. How stable the EU is. Race. Is another question but it. Still, gives a very. Strong. Framework. For. Which that to, operate, in many countries, for. The Convention. To has much. More power in many countries because of the European, Court of Human Rights. So. And. There are other. Milestones. That, you could probably point, to in terms of human rights better, that. Are very similar to the EU but, haven't, got, the. Same, strength. So, the African Charter. The. American. Inter-american. Charter of, Human Rights. The. Marrakesh. Treaty. The. Marrakesh treaty doesn't, give you anything that CRP. Doesn't, give you apart. From multilateral. Engagement, but, you can't you, can't dis multilateral. Engagement. Government-to-government. Engagement. Can, can. Be a strong, driving. Force for change but. You must remember that the Marrakesh, treaty really. Doesn't give anything that the CRPD, CRPG. Kids, so. Yes, there are milestones but. It's, how we implement, those milestones, that. Are important. The, framework, is definitely, there but as, we see with our own GTA. It's actually. Quite a good piece of legislation, I. Wouldn't. Have constructed, it with, a comparator. I would, have kept to the RDA. Framework. But. Other than that it's a very strong piece of legislation, the. Problem, is the judiciary, has, been. Very, narrow, in, trying to enforce, a distinction. Between direct, discrimination, and, indirect, discrimination and. They've, been a highly. Highly technical. In, their judgments, as a big. Opposed, to being broadened compulsive, and any. Lawyer, in the room will know that. Beneficial, legislation. Should be interpreted. It's broadened purposive. Now. Laney you've got us coming. From an American, perspective. Obviously. Rosemary's. Touched my few that I guess. From that view. Of the American perspective in the history of the u.s. son of things is there anything else that maybe add to, that or. From your perspective, your thoughts. Well. One thought is this whole question of milestone. And it's. Easy to talk, about laws. But, for every milestone I'll, mention a few more its. Activism. And organizing. In. The disability community, that led, to the milestones, so like we talked about the ATA as you know disability.
Community, Was fighting, for the a da for over a decade and, before. The a da we have this. Law called section 504. Which has to do with the, government, the federal government, spending. Money and. Disability. Community, had the biggest takeover, of a federal building for 30 days in, 1977. To, get those regulations, which. Really. When, you talk about framework. You. Know the framework, is very strong, it's about participation. And inclusion and. The courts. Now, are, saying. It's, not idea, we'll talk about it later but that the a da which was you, know signed in 1990. Covers. Websites and, covers, mobile, so. I think, when we talk about milestones we have to remember the day, to day. Advocacy. Work that. Many. You, in the room are probably doing that, will lead to, the next milestones, in terms of digital specifically. In the US I and. My clients, negotiated. The first web, accessibility, agreement, in the US and 2000. So, that's like 18 years ago that was with one of our largest banks, Bank of America, and again, you. Know it's people I get, the credit oh I was the lawyer a structured, negotiation, that never would have happened if they weren't blind, early, adopters, saying I mean, I remember the call saying, we. Were working on talking ATMs and one, of the blind clients call me and said you know there's this thing online, banking, and if we don't make that accessible, there. Was a time before online, banking, or in. 2008. When. Apple, opened its. App. Store, when for the iPhone, Blackberry was, right, on it, like there's a thing called apps we need to make that accessible so, those. Are some of the other milestones, we have some court, milestones, in 2008. There was the first judge, who said website. Should be accessible. Last. Year we had the first trial, that said website, should be accessible but again like rosemary said the, law is so technical like. We need a strong foundation but. Technology. And accessibility has. Such a potential, for creativity, and inclusion, and the law is like. We're all talking about AI and, BR, and, all this stuff and the law is still talking about web pages and, whether there's. A connection to, a business, so we need the law we need the strong foundation we need the milestones, but, we have to do the work on the ground to, make sure we keep up with the technology. Thanks. That I'm. Conscious of time we've would probably give another 10 minutes amongst. Ourselves before we throw it up into the. Audience but. With that in mind Alastair. With. Maybe just a couple minutes. Some. Of these points that flagged do, come back to where we at today, in. The sense of the. Legal sort, of landscape, and. What's, happening, currently in Australia, you, maybe give a bit of a picture on that because my impression, is that we're not a very litigious society but. There's obviously stuff happening, and stuff, that comes. To the Australian Human Rights Commission, so could, you give us maybe a bit, of understanding, what's happening there. Yes. Firstly. I was rosemary pointed, out we've had many challenges here. In this valley of thought through judg'd and how they interpreted. The, ddae, at, the Australian. Human Rights Commission, we ran a complaint, process, where people can, complain, if, they feel, that they had been discriminated, again. Under. Various. Forms of discrimination including. Disability. They. Challenge, with the complaint. Closes, or the conciliation, process that, it relied on the individual, so, the individual, with disability, to bring a complaint, and often, that I met with a wall of the distant through the respondent, so was, try to conciliate, a, non-legal. Posted in the sense there we say this is the law and we, try to get the party to come to an, agreement on how the particular. Situation will, fit under, the law and we, often describe where, possible, for practical, solution. Some. Of the complaint, that we've had about technology, over the years have related, to ATM. Not being accessible we, still get many complaints about, websites. Not being accessible, and, it's really interesting to note that the number of government, department, that that I respondent. Both, Commonwealth, and state and territory -, complained. About inaccessible. Websites. So we've still got a long way to go as I indicated, earlier and, so, the challenge, is to ensure that we have a system in Australia where, my.
Role Is to focus on the systemic, issues and, try and get you. Know out come there and I. We shouldn't. Have to just rely on a system, where based, on the individual, to, have to those complaints, as. Lanie's also pointed out there's been a great deal of Acts advocacy. In in the state and we've had that tool in, Australia. Some you know some fantastic, miles down to where the disability community has, worked very hard together. To achieve. Attitude advocating. For the National. Disability Insurance game, the. Blind community in particular have been very active, very late lutely. On you know exactly, the issue that we are talking about here today in terms of accessible, technology. Thank. You know, I'm gonna jump Delaney usually. I'd let you guys jump in live in if you really want jump in I'll come to you in a second. But Laney we've got a slightly different scenario seeming to happen in the United States at present of the last few years so can, you paint just the bit of the the picture of what's going on in the United States a present from a legal perspective. Yeah. One thing I meant to say before I like my work has all been with the blind community and the blind community were the main activists, around digital. Initially. Now, as, more. More. Technologies, video we. Have the deaf community being. Involved in the lawsuits, around Netflix. Captioning, captioning for students, I mean so much of the educational, space is, now video so, you're, seeing more deaf, people and, we. Haven't seen so much legally. On the cognitive side but I think that's going to be next because, that's, a huge and growing area, and the activism, around, people, with learning disabilities. Or people, who are artistic, there's, a lot of digital issues around that too so even though I tend, to talk about blindness because that's my personal work it's really important when you think of what's happening, in the US it's not just, that, disability so, yeah in the u.s. like, I said I did the first with, my clients. And my colleagues we, did a web accessibility agreement, in 2000. And. There. Were lawsuits filed like I said I do structured, negotiations we, don't have to file lawsuits we have, a process. That it really invites, people to sit around the table of fine solution but, there's also been lawsuits like, the one against Netflix, at the National, Association the, Deaf did or a National. Federation of the blind has, done a lot of good lawsuits, in the educational, space and, so, we were all very collaborative. And it was all very nice some people did lawsuits, we also had a great, Department, of Justice, under President, Obama that was doing a lot of digital work. So, comes now. 2018. And we are on track that there will be 2000, lawsuits, filed by. The end of the year about, web accessibility. 3000, percent increase, since 2015. Approximately. I was, gonna say don't quote me but there's some video cameras, here I guess I'm being quote approximately. Approximately. And, you. Know that's because we, have some, lawyers who are very tiny, handful, of lawyers who are not disability, rights lawyers who, saw an opportunity.
Based. On the foundation, that the, disability community built. And. So, we have a lot of potential backlash, against. That right now these, cases, are cases being, filed with. Settlements. That are confidential, no, one knows what's really happening, in quick turnaround, and it's. Really important, and I have really struggled with this myself personally because. You. Know I don't like that kind of use, of the strong foundation we have because. It. Generates, a fear and people, are starting to do web access, so I'm afraid of being sued and that is not a motivation. That, will get us where we need to be in terms of having. Accessibility. Built in from the core but, it's also very important. You. Know there's a lot of metaphors don't throw the baby out with the bathwater or don't, let a couple rotten, apples spoil the whole basket, so yes, we have a situation now where, we have these lawsuits there's. Potential. Backlash. Especially. With the government, as we have now but. Yeah so that is the situation, I. Really believe in, lawsuits. Because, lawsuits, are a good tool I, like. Collaboration, when it's possible, and. It's really important not to hear because you may hear oh my god so many lawsuits in the u.s. it's terrible you got to change the law no, it's not that we have to figure out a way that the very tiny percentage, of, lawyers. Who are, using. The law in, the non-productive, way we have to we. Have to figure out that we, can't I I really, believe we don't set policy, based on the bad actors, we, have to set policy, based on the good actors. And figure out how to deal with the bad actor yeah. I will say on the all these lawsuits they are going in the direction of access, it's a very narrow because, it's like I say it's just about websites, and judges. Like you said rosemary. You know there's talk about who's disabled, and who isn't there's like this, we. Call it a nexus, you know is the website connected, to brick-and-mortar there's. All that stuff, going on but by and large the courts are mostly saying that, disabled, people have a right to go to court and get. Accessible, websites so. It's. It's, a situation. So. We've got an interesting sort, of difference. Between say. What's, happening United States what's. Happening in the australian space, from. The australian space we seem to follow a lot of what your, general thinking. Has been as a lawyer, rosemary. I'm just curious to get your pression. About are. We having are we in the right track or do, we need to be doing more for the. Community. Moving, forward from. Australian, perspective oh. God. Yes we need to be doing more. It's. It's. A tricky ask are. You talking about a dynamic space, are, you talking about technology. And. If. This, there's one way to describe, the. Space that we're in its, dynamic. I mean. The. This. The, pace of, which things with. Which technology. Is changing, is incredible. And so, how do you take something, that's.
Standardized. And. Takes. Years. To develop and, get, agreed, to, to. Be as, fluid. As the. Thought processes, of, the, developers. So. How. Do you work in that space how do you how. Do you keep that, space. Focused. On. Making. Sure it's. Including. Everybody I. Think. There. Must be a, way, of doing it. But. I can't see it in the short-term unfortunately. And, I think that's why I come. Back to my first point when I talked about. My. Role at the University and what the Institute. Wants. To do, is. That. There's. A. Long. Term game. To. Embed. Disability. In. The broader thinking of the community, and. Get. Designers. Taught, their. Craft and. Researchers. Taught their craft. With. The whole human, condition, in marketing and. I mean okay, that's a bit of a cop-out saying, it's it could only be addressed, in, the. Future there. Are things that we can do now, but. I think, litigation. Is a. Very. Small, part. Of the game, I, think. Engagement. One of the best things the Australian, Human Rights Commission. Achieved. In the space around the DDA was, the, original banking, standards and. That. Was engagement. With the, banks you know a. Positive. Way about. A narrow, area, that, they, understood, and, so. That, engagement, the. Commission, gave space, to people with disability, and them and the, banking industry, to engage, one-on-one. And. Find. Solutions. Now. The longer. That. Process. So. Once that was established of, those standards were in place that. Was fine but as technology, changed. Those. Standards. Became, redundant. So. That engagement needs, to be ongoing, there. Needs to be mechanisms. That we can build into. The. Industries. To. Ensure, they have internal, watchdogs. And this. Is why education. Of, people with disability, is so important, we, need people with disability. You. Know in education. Getting, the academic, group know education. That everybody, else gets being, off of the same academic. Opportunities. As everybody else so they can be working. In these industries. And, they, can be part of the. Industry, and, informing. The industry. About their. Experience. And so it's not, something. Foreign, to them. So. Engagement. Is such a powerful, thing when. It comes to disability, and it's because people. With disability, have been isolated, from the mainstream and. People. Don't. Often engage. With people with disability, so, they don't think, of. Their. The, issues for them and so. It's. Not. Willful. Ignorance it's. Just ignorance nine, times out of ten and, so. It's about making, space for that engagement and, looking. At how that engagement, can, happen. In. An ongoing dynamic. Way. Laney, and Alice, Tara just any. Sort, of additions, to say, what Roman rosemary, was saying Laney I'll start with you yeah. The irony is this is a panel, unlike legislation. And law and we're like lawyers but the truth is the law really can't be the driver, I.
Mean, It's. Like we see here in the US you know, Microsoft, is, really, just. Doing wonderful. Things around, accessibility because, they have made it part, of their corporate culture, starting. And what. I. Just. Finished. My sentence, at Unadilla CR his, actually, as a disability. No no I was saying I, agree with you and if those of you haven't read the book that the. CEO Microsoft road, it's called hit, refresh and, you can see what happens with one. Person and they have Jenny late flurry who has the highest accessibility. Position, and, I, did a session last year with one of their lawyers and we, saw exactly, eye-to-eye, you know I've only represented. Disabled people my whole just, part of my career and their, Microsoft, you know one of the biggest corporations and we, agreed, that yeah, the law is important, but we, had cookies because, the, law is like the sugar or the butter but it's not the cookie it's not the whole cookie, you know you, need the the culture. And the transparency. And the accountability, and. The design, and, the development. You need all this so those. Of us in the legal space have to kind, of humble ourselves with, like how much can we do and. Remind, people yeah this is a civil, and a human right and don't. Forget that but, accessibility. Is about people and. Just. The law has its limits. I. Don't know a little, bit today our experience, is consulting, firm a lot of times it's because, our. Experiences those people who actually have experience with other people with disabilities, they. Tend to be more proactive and productive, towards. Doing the right thing whereas. A lot of people as rosemary you were saying if they had, no experience or, someone here as a disability they. It's, just not in their conscious mind and I know I should have just one less thing on that Microsoft, panel, the Microsoft, lawyer said you know we had seven things that really make for accessible culture and number, one was hiring, people with disabilities that. She saw that and I had never real I knew of course who. Have to hire disabled, people but she's, the one the Microsoft, lawyer who taught me that, is key to, digital. Accessibility because. If you're designing, something and, the person next to you is deaf. And isn't gonna be able to see the video unless you have captions or is blinded. Isn't gonna be able to use a touchscreen you're, not gonna do it so hiring, is you, know word, one it's not a separate, yeah. I had always thought of it like. Diversity, hiring that's important, but, no it's like a critical. Component which. Is interesting I'll throw it out there because I'll see you flagged earlier of how there. Were a, number of complaints, against, government, agencies. And, I do remember. Seeing a statistic, where I think it's of less twenty, years the employment, numbers people.
With Disability, and government's offense has halved. I think at the federal level, so we've gone from about five point eight percent. Down to think about two point six roughly. So. Curious. Your. Thoughts I guess before. We throw it out into the crowd. Anything. Further to add along those lines I. Certainly. We've seen a decline in, the. Rate of employment, of people with disability. In the public, service both the Commonwealth, and state, and, territory level, absolutely. In the last 20 years as you pointed out it's gone from. Percent. Down, to at. Low, at one point eight three percent. And in some way to declining, to rehab a significant, issue here in Australia, of where. Government. Is not aware, not governments. And not employing people with disabilities or. Giving, them the opportunity, to come, into the workforce and then, be. Supported, to become. Employees. For. Me that. Is also linked to and, as rosemary, pointed, out where, we see persist is when we bring together at the relevant stakeholders so, industry, government and, people, with disability. And try and identify what is the common issue and then, come up with a meaningful dialogue to, develop. Solution, and to. Try and work out what, they where. To from here so, absolutely. We are seeing many. Declines. So, the rate of employment the. Digital, divide that I that we talked about earlier, and so, in many ways we are seeing a backwards, debt and rose, made quite right we need to always be looking, to, the future, to, make sure that we get the foundation button. So. I've gone a little bit longer than I was first expecting, but we. Had some wonderful thoughts. It's from all three of our panelists, what, I do want to do is give everyone, who, may have a question, an opportunity to ask a question we do have some roaming microphones, so, does. Anyone have a question that, they would like to ask I, see. A hand over here. Hi. Thanks. Really. Really, to. The point I would say especially the last part I had something, in mind around like, asking. Something towards, that so you kind, of answer a bit of what, I was wanting, to ask. Oh sorry you said introduce, yourself so just a name and then my name is Brenda, Castro, I work as a designer, user, experience, interaction, design mostly, and. Yeah, my question is basically because, in. My, work I've seen, very. Very little, people. With. Even. Minor. Disabilities, engaged in the process and. One. Of the things. That could help us a lot of. Designers. And in, the technology. Industry would. Be to. Have for example initiatives. Where you could actually. Without. A lot of resources, access. Have. The possibility, to engage. With, people with different disabilities on. The beginning of your project, which for, me and I'm sure for many other, people in my same. Situation like, in the similar, roles it's just very difficult to approach her to find people, who would actually teach. You how, to do a better design. Because. Even if you have the basics, the law or the basics, on theory. Even. Web. Standards, for example are very clear even that is not enough you need to know people you need to actually, get. The people engaged so. Are there any initiatives. At least in Australia, that we know that we. People. Working in the field could actually access and, get, that feedback from people who could, teach us okay. I'm. Gonna throw you first rosemary, because I think you've got some thoughts this and I know Lanie's. Something in the u.s. she can probably flag. Yeah. I. Don't, know specific. Projects. But I know a way you could probably. Work. Through it and I mean one of the ways that you could do it is by. Approaching. Disability. Organizations.
They Generally, have people that work in this space if. You're respectful, to your engagement with those organizations. Recognize. And, respect, the expertise. That, you're, seeking and. Engage. With that, as you would any other consultant. I'm, sure you would be able to get access, to people to be able to say yeah support. Your design process but, this is exactly what we're trying to build into, the. Opportunities. For design. Students. And. Sorry. Art design students, some built, environments, students, engineering students. Is that opportunity to, be able to engage. People. With disability. To be involved. In their. Projects, from the very beginning, to, help frame, the questions, to help frame. The design. Parameters. And. To. Be part, of the team but. So I think if you go to organizations. Such as. Vision. Australia or. Even. The deaf services. Around. The country, your people with disability, Australia, that, they would have people that work in this space and, would, be. Quite. Willing to assist you if you have you, know approached, it in as part, of, your, your. Project. Alright. One thing to that so there are a couple market research companies, in Australia that will help you find people with disabilities, our. Company does something similar as well what, we generally recommend though is that if you're going to go down that path you've, got sort, of sometimes, two options you can go find volunteers, but we generally recommend that you. Compensate. People, for their time for. Any research. But, what I want to do laney there's also teach access, in, the United States if we come back to the education, side of things we, said have two angles here we've got the angle of including. People with disabilities as. Part of the process but the, education, side was a nother element to that question, and the, teach Access Initiative in the United States seems to be trying to, deal. A little bit with that from the US perspective. Yeah. Can it say I was gonna say that I know there's some people just right in the room from digital, gap initiative for example which, is a grassroots, organization. I. Think. That, you. Know and. I don't know who else is right. Just. So raise your hand in case anyone wants to talk to you afterwards. Yeah. So a couple things yeah. Giselle over here I keep. On my website and I would recommend someone, here do it. Nonprofits. NGOs who. Do, this kind of work. There's, also consultants. Who do it I think it's really important. To treat, whatever. Consultant. You bring in or a disabled. Person as a part. Of the process not an add-on it, has to be just like any other vendor, that, you you know yo you have a security, issue you, want to make sure you have you, know hit, all the buttons on security, you're. Gonna have. That built in it's going to be a part if, disability. Issues become add-on.
Or Second, nature we'll just do it after work or, we'll just have a volunteer, come in give, them a gift card it's. Gonna get lost once you get to the next so to, the next phase. Yeah we have a thing. Going on the US and it might be even global, teach access, where we, don't have enough, skilled. Designers. And, developers who, know accessibility. And so the big companies, have gotten together and, they. Have a website I think it's it's definitely teach access, might be teach Access org, and this, summer for example they brought in 25. Computer. Science students, to. Silicon. Valley and they spent I think they spent three weeks going, around and meeting, the big company, and a lot of the companies have what they call empathy labs, where, you can try out the equipment. And just get some basic understanding because. We. Need but. That's sort of a teach acts a separate thing that's should. Have disabled, people in it but somewhat. Different than the whole usability. Making, sure disabled, people are involved, from the outset. In the design. But. Yeah I really recommend having a because we have a lot of NGOs, and there's also people, like people, in the US you can do it remotely, and you. Can get feedback remotely. I think, you guys do that at intopia and, well, we have there's nobility for example United States do a lot of it remotely they find hit, and miss about the potential benefits of that. We. Do it more, locally, touched up but we're one of a number of organizations, that do the same thing so there. Are organizations, out there that do that I. Think, if you connect more with the, expense accessibility, community that will give you more opportunities to sort of find these organizations. And groups and and everything rosemary and Laney just said that, can help you include, it and just being aware of that it's just that's, the first big step. And. One, quick comment from me on do when, it come to teaching, students, about inclusive. Design, it's, important, distress that, people with disabilities, a very diverse just, like you know and people. In the community so, many organization. Will bring. In a person with the disability lit though for example a blind person, and say, well we consulted, with a blind person, on the design of this product and we've ticked the box somebody. Who for example a, totally. Blind with no sight as opposed, to somebody with low vision will have very different needs when it come to you how you use a smart, device so the really important. Point for our student, to, remember, to, always keep, that in mind the diversity, of disability. Even. Even, to people with the same. Blindness. About them may have different levels of aptitude for technology, and we see that a lot so there's, a lot of those variables, to keep in mind. Conscious. Of time and, other. Questions Shawn over, here just in the middle. I'm. Just curious like currently, if you're a disabled, person you go through the through the LD da process, there, is a fear factory out in the community, where, people might not want to take up the process a too complex, or be, the factor if they lose a case, you're going to bring up they, could be can, be sued for the legal, costs so. I would like to know that the pros and cons from the US, side of things and from, the Australian, science should. We have something in there for, like a a. Safety. Net to permit people to utilize. The DDA more often and to, get that social change we're all trying to achieve. First. Alastair. Oh. Thank. You at the Keyshawn for that look in terms of what we try to do at this girl in human rights commission with the complaint process as I said earlier we encouraged. The party to come up with the. Solution, that you know AB the best outcome for both, the complainant. And the respondent. Alright, knowledge of course the barrier to that are you know people with disabilities really. Intimidated. Or overwhelmed, by the system. Particularly, if the outcome, is not what they want and they wish to take it to, court they had the option, of taking it to court however. Many of us know the justice, system is very expensive, very complex, very time-consuming so. Many, many barriers. So, all up for me it's. Really important, for the, Australian Human Rights Commission, to promote this to the outcome, where, we can.
Noting. That the outcomes. Of conciliation are, confidential, but, where we can we try and promote for. Example, if an, employer. Agreed, to, do. Things like disability. Awareness training or, to implement a more proactive. Inclusive. Design pros and so forth so we try and do that so that should some of the Priory of course. Some of the cons are being overwhelmed, by the system. We. Don't have a human rights jurisdiction. It fit in within the federal court so. We don't have a humor Wright's jurisdiction. That. Is, a. No-cost, jurisdiction. And that, is problematic, I. Believe. There is probably. A good case for human, rights jurisdiction. That. Is a no-cost. Jurisdiction. Because. The cost the, cost issue is a big issue I mean the decision to take. An. Unsuccessful, conciliation. To the federal court is. Definitely. A. Difficult. Decision. To make for people you know do my kids go to them a local, high school with, their siblings or, do, we lose the house I mean, not. A question you really want to put on people. The. Other the. Other issue is, that we've got. Jurisprudence. Where. Business. Cases have, with, very, little evidence and. I. Mean, not a particularly, well-run, case but. Unfortunately. A very adverse, decision. In. Terms of Jetstar. Thinking. And, so, when you see business. Cases, trumping. Beneficial. Legislation. It's. Very. Difficult, to inspire, confidence so. The. Cost uris diction is a problem, and. I. There. Are mechanisms, like, cost capping, and. Stuff. Like that but there isn't enough I mean there would need to be a wholesale, recognition. Of, a, no-cost, jurisdiction. Before. We got any changed, so I don't see that on the horizon. Anytime. Soon. Unlike. The states. Well. One thing you just asked. Her you were tight about confidentiality, and, that would be a place that, would. Be good to change because. I my. Clients and I have really, insisted. On, transparency. Of our agreements, from the beginning, because. Nobody. Wants to go first and even. Though I never go, to court, and, we don't have any court. Cases we, have what I call industry, precedent, so, when we convinced, the first bank to do talking ATMs, the next bank could say oh well they did talking ATMs I won't be first, talking. Prescription, labels it was a big issue because nobody, had them there haven't been any court cases all the pharmacies, have done them as a result of structured negotiations no. One wanted to go first so we. Do tend to keep the money part of our cases, confidential. Like what attorneys, fees are paid I'll mention that in a minute, or damages. To the client but I think. It's really important, and that was one of Microsoft's elements. Of the cookie you know transparency. And say, what you're doing not. Just so, people can have the benefit, because if you're doing accessibility but, nobody knows it that's a problem in itself but, that so, other businesses can, have the.
Benefit, That they're not the first and there can be learnings, even, in a competitive field. That there could be learnings, from each other the way the money works in the u.s. is that the Americans, with Disabilities, Act does, say that if you win your case the. Company, or the government that loses has to pay your, attorneys fees and that. Works even in settlement, so that is my. Business. Model I guess you'd say is that when we settle with a company, they, do pay, our attorneys fees and the idea that and, this is how we. Never have any issue because we say and, this, is true for race cases, and gender, cases, that, the. People being discriminated against don't have the resources, to hire a lawyer so. If you win, your case or you're successfully, settle you do get your lawyers paid and you only have to pay the company, if your case was. Frivolous. It's higher, standard. If your case if your lawsuit was frivolous and, unreasonable. And without. Foundation. Something like that those. Kinds of words then, you might have to pay. And vexatious, right then. You might have to pay but it's not like oh if you lose you're, stuck paying and the, attorneys fees I think is a really big, piece of it because we have a separate, law for airline, access. Airlines. Aren't covered, by the Americans, with Disabilities, Act that. Law doesn't have the. Attorneys fees piece. And so. That law is very little enforcement. People, still. In 2018. You know the terrible, problems, with wheelchair. Is getting, wrecked. And people not being treated fairly so. The, attorneys fees piece is a it. Is an important, part. Believe. Me yeah the, problem. Chair. Use as well knees had, a few issues as well. Because, you can't you can't sue because it's not that independent, they call it. You. Can't you have to go to the administrative. Processes. You can't go right to court so. Okay. We probably have time for one more question. We've. Had gentlemen jump in really, quickly down here hi. My name is Clive we're, currently setting up a startup to enable car pooling services. For the disabled, carers, and Guardians so, carpooling its traditional sense you, know where one parent or a guardian or a carer could actually help another, parents. Disabled, kid or child. One. Of the things that and, it's not a it's, not a service, step way we are going to charge by the hour to, the parent it's gonna be a business-to-business. Model, so you know it's just a subscription, feed that the business pays and then the users can use it for free but. The, challenge that I have is you, know how can I actually train up able. Parents, to help, other. Parents, who. Have, disabled, kids just so that they can look after the person. When they're transporting, them from point A to point B so, my question is are there any. Organizations. Or training frame frameworks, in place to. Kind of Eddie's give the basic guidelines to, you, know able-bodied. People to help another. Disabled, person. Who. Would like to jump in on that. Sorry. Just and then it's called enabler, and. When. You and so he's uh he won ally a fan Dacian grant to, develop something like that based, on the standards, and with avatars, to, train people in a safe way it's, really quite cool. When. You're saying there's so much happening, like here. In Australia we've got the remarkable, group. And the remarkable group is part, of the cerebral palsy Alliance. And, they're a, startup. Accelerator to, help organisations, that are focusing, on using technology to. Target. And benefit the disability, community which is a large community and, they're. Trying to help people to get their startups, up, and running as an incubator process, so hoist, company, enabler is one of those groups, and. It's some, great stuff that's actually happening here in Australia else are we gonna jump in uh firstly. Club. Fantastic. To hear that you're being so proactive in, terms of using technology, to to. To, address, what I think is the very significant, need, in the community we've got many many families who, are with, children with disabilities or just want the best for their child to, be educated, in a, mainstream, setting. And, I have to make many sacrifices to, try and achieve that, ideal, you. Could for. Example think. About contacting. Family Advocacy in South Wales we do a lot of advocacy about children. And, inclusive education. So that's just one that popped my my, head. And. Of course they mentioned, earlier PWD, are those who might be able to facilitate some sort of a build or connect.
You, I. Think, it's just great and really, good to see also all, the innovation, that's going on in the disability sector at the moment particularly, with, the NDIS and we. Are we. Need to make sure that, yourself. Club and I don't had the mean to be innovative, to make sure that we don't think I'm going to get stuck in the bureaucracy or, hamstrung. By red. Tape and government. Inaction so my, hope, for the future youth their innovation. For people with disability, be allowed to be a you, know. Innovative. That they can be. So. We're. Pretty well out of time but. What I do want to do is allow a short one minute. Final. Sort. Of thought pieces, from each of our panelists, from, both questions, and we've, had two today and and the commentary, we've had, this. Evening and, what. I might do is I go from. Right, to left, so, rosemary I'll actually start with you I know you were hoping to get a last. Start. With yours ready and, yes, a short, sort of take away what do you think from. Today maybe what do you think we need to do. What. Would you want to leave everyone with is it as a as. A thought point. Um. People, with disability, of just go be part of the community. I mean if. Engagement. Is, how it works if, we're, there. In an integral, part then. It, will work because. We'll. Be seen we'll be doing, we will be part of, I. Know. It's a simplification. But. I. Think. You. Know two of the questions, that we've had tonight is about. How. Do I contact people with disability, well. If. You. Know we were more included, in the society, if the society, was more inclusive, both, questions, wouldn't need to be asked. Thank. You Wayne. What. Was really, good summit, I. Always. Go but, what. Else would you like that I want they did oh um, I guess. I just want to throw in a word we haven't said which is, intersectionality. Which, is disability. Is not. Its. Own thing over here that. Any, conversation. About access, to justice, for poor, people for. Indigenous, people. Gender. Disability, is, cross-cutting. And the more we can take it out of the silo, it's like you. Know another way from, what in. Addition to what rosemary, said the. Better, because we can't we. Can't just be an add-on you, know it can't be an afterthought, we have to be there from the beginning and, the more like. You said we recognized a full scope, of, humaneness. The. More we're gonna have accessibility. And, also don't forget we're all gonna get old on, top of everything else. As. A last resort you know designed for your future self we are all going, to need this, we. Are all going to need this some of us sooner, thing. When. I would flipped on the. Kg for example Rosemary's, Minchin and King bill two Jet's died and they've been many others such a way Minnesota's bow core and when I reflect on how the respondent, have been very defensive. And very adversarial, and, when, I reflect, on the, complaint. That we get at the Commission, a large, organization. We need to build a culture of inclusion for everyone, in the organization. You can have a fantastic te.
O Or, Bourdain. This is the right thing to do but. If it doesn't go down to, the frontline staff to the designer then we will never achieve an, inclusive. Society so. A culture. Of including. It everyone, responsibilities. I'm. A big fan of. Value. Statements not enough that actually got to be embraced and, action. Throughout the organization. Alastair. Laney, rosemary. Thank, you all for, your, time this evening I, know, Elena you traveled a lot farther than Alastair. And rosemary. But. It's been fascinating, it's been enlightening there's some really interesting points all three of you brought to the table for. Everyone here, so. If we could have a nice round of applause for all three. I. Also. Want, to thank. Few other people I'd like to thank University, of Sydney University of New South Wales Telstra. Intopia. I, also, want to thank the Sydney. Web accessibility, meetup, group and the. Accessibility camp. Or le camp and Ally bytes all, of which have worked together to help us put this on for you today so I, really, would like to thank all of them because without them we wouldn't be able to put something like this together as well so thank you very much for that I. Also. Want to thank Meredith. And Lynne from University, of New South Wales and also Renata, and Chris from intopia all for. Them have done a mazing. Mount of effort behind the scenes to make sure this ran as. Smoothly. As it has so. Thank you each of you for your time and effort so finally, thank, you all for attending and thank you for your participation this, evening.