GPG Outbrief 12 - Electrochromic Windows
Hello. Everyone and welcome today's, today's, webinar, and electrochromic, or ec windows i'm andre Silvestri, and before we get started I'll be walking through some webinar, logistics. So. Today's webinar is, based, on three reports, by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and, you can find the full reports, as well, as one page infographics. And four page findings. On. Gsa.gov. And. These. Reports are one, of a series of 33. Published, results to. Date on. A variety, of topics building, envelope, HVAC, lighting, energy, management, water and on-site renewables. And all, of those reports and results are available at GSA gov. And. We also have 14 ongoing. Evaluations, and the. Latest, high-efficiency, rtu. Assessment, those, results. Will be released at next week and we have upcoming, reports in the next within. The next couple of months as well. And. Today's. Webinar is one in a series of, GPG out briefs our next webinar will, be on May 10th on the honeycomb solar, thermal collector, this. Is a report by the National Renewable Energy, Laboratory. Currently. New construction, and major renovations in. Federal buildings, are required to meet 30%. Of hot water demand, with, solar energy provided. It's cost effective over the lifetime of the technology, we'll. Be looking at this webinar at both the efficacy of the technology, ongoing. Operations, at two facilities, and under, what conditions. The, technology, can be cost effective. June's. Webinar, will be discussing an early GPG assessment, of variable refrigerant flow, at the time of the original evaluation. GSA. Didn't have any full implementations. So. The researchers, at PNNL, concentrated. On recommendations. For where best to deploy the technology, since. That time GSA, has multiple, vrf installations. And the, webinar will be presenting, the results from Pacific, Northwest, National Laboratories. Findings, as well, as on-the-ground, feedback, from three. Different, GSA. Implementations. Of VRS. All. Of our webinars, are available for, continuing, education learning. Credits through the American, Institute, of Architects, at, the completion, of today's.
Webinar You should receive a short, five question survey and by, completing, that survey you can receive credit, if you don't receive the survey please contact. Michael, Hopson. During. Today's webinar we'll be you'll, all be set to listen-only and. So if you can please submit questions, there on the lower right hand side, of the chat window and you, don't need to wait to the to. The Q&A session, at the end of, the presentation to submit questions in fact, we encourage you to submit questions well, in advance and throughout, the presentations. And. With that I'll turn it over to Mike Lowell who, will be presenting. And facilitating. Today's webinar. Thank. You Andrea next slide. Welcome. Everyone you can see we've got a full agenda today. As. Andrea said I'm Mike Lowell I'm a project manager with the emerging technologies. Division our. Agenda includes first a presentation, by Luis Fernandez, with Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, on, a study of ICI. Windows for land ports of entry, in Texas. Then. We've got on the ground feedback, feedback, from, Amy. Mendoza from. That land port of entry in Donna Texas. After. That we've got a presentation, on a second, study of. ICI windows for general office space general, federal office space GSA, buildings from. Eleanor Lee and with also with LBNL, and, then. After that we got on the ground feedback, from. People in region 10 on, that general, office space you see window study and then. We'll close up with QA which. Will be as, we said before 20. Minutes for that before. I'm to the next one I wanted to thank, do. Two things mention two things first, that you see windows for general office space that is the first study, that's. Been done with long-term occupant. Feedback, on. ICI, windows and then, secondly I wanted to thank, Eleanor. For sharing a story of a recent installation. Of, ICI, windows with. The Dallas Fort Worth Airport. They, had as you could imagine in Dallas Fort Worth they. Have many areas of the airport that. Experience, a significant. Sun and therefore. Glare and heat gain and so they installed ICI windows, in, a small portion of the. Airport, specifically. Gate a 28, and an adjacent, burger, restaurant, and bar and, post. Installation people. Are much more comfortable spending, time in those areas so much so that, alcohol. Sales went up 80 percent so. Chalk one up for ICI windows next. Slide. And. I. Wanted. To quickly explain to you GSA's. Emergency. Emerging. Technologies, program, our. Program or, division, is comprised of two sub. Parts if you will the. GSA proving ground GPG and pilot two portfolio. What. Going to be seeing today is. Basically, a result. Of the GPG program, where we basically, select. Install. Tests. And then verify the performance of technologies, as. A part of that process if. We find that technologies. Are proven, and. Worthy abroad, deployment. Within GSA's, portfolio. We. Make deployment, recommendation, and then. The pilot the portfolio, program is be, part of the emerging. Technologies, division. Suite. Of activities if you will that. Then facilitates. And encourages. And provides tools for the broad deployment. Of those, proven technologies. Next. Slide. And. With that I'd like to introduce release, with LBNL, and he will give you a presentation, on the Donna Texas, EC. Windows study. Good. Morning everyone. Next, slide please so. This. Study. Was undertaken at, the Donald. Land port of entry it's a, land, port of entry on, the border. With. Mexico. Pretty, close to the Gulf, of Mexico. This. Facility, they, oversee, vehicles, vehicle. Traffic coming into the. United States, next. Slide please. So. The main issue here, that led to the introduction of electrochromic. Windows, was. With. Glare so. The, main part. Of the facility we see a picture of here. It's. Called the command center. Officers. Use. The windows to monitor. The surroundings, in, between all the other tasks, that they are performing, when. The Sun is low on the horizon and, that happens every day in, the morning and in the afternoon. In. The middle of the day there's a large canopy, that protects. The. Port of entry but, during. The morning in the afternoon. There. The Sun is often visible through the windows and so, it. Makes the conditions, intolerable, inside the command center, and other, interior spaces, so. The. Blinds, are used to control for that but then officers. Lose the direct line of sight with the surroundings, and that's very important, for their for. Their mission, so. Electrochromic. Windows, were, introduced. Or considered. As a potential, solution. For, that because. They would allow, darkening. And lightening of the windows on-demand. Automatically. To. The. Control for glare next, slide please. So. Electrochromic. Windows, the transition. From clear to dark or from dark to clear. Based. On. Based. On an electrical, electric, signal sent, to the the, actual glass and, that.
Can Be done automatically. Based on a, photo. Sensor that the system or multiple, photo sensors, that the system has outside. Of the building. So. The system can can. Know when it's ray, sunny or very bright or very dark and adjust the the window, tint. Darker. Or lighter accordingly. Occupants. Can also use switches to. To. Darken. Or lighten. The windows on. Demand, next, slide please. So. This, Grahame shows the basic. The. Basic. Concept. So we have four. Tents and. There the, windows are usually under automatic, control, but. Our building occupants can also use switches to override, that, that. Operation, for a period of time next, slide please. So. The. Electrochromic. Windows, were installed in two, in. Two locations, and the command center and the port, of entry one was the command center and, i that. Picture, that i heard, before was, for. The command center they're, also vehicle. They're also booths. Where. Officers, stand. And inspect. The vehicles as they come into the United States so. This. Port. Of entry has several booths and electrical, mcwinters were installed on one of them, on. The that's, the middle of the picture in, the middle on the right hand side you see one, of the is two of the switches. Installed. In that, booth. To. Control. The. First, for the for. The occupant, in this case an, officer to. Control, the the tent if, that. Was desired. You. Can see that the windows were installed in, addition, to the existing windows. And. There, were. And. That's for several reasons I think there's a slide later on and I'll talk. About that then next. Slide please. So. The primary mode, of evaluating. This technology. Was. Through. Surveying. The officers. That. Work, in that facility, in. Order to assess what. If. They felt that the, this, enhanced. Their mission if. It controlled, glare or and if it, had. Any impact on, thermal. Comfort, one. Of the concerns. Was that the, darker. Glass might get. Hotter and. Caused. This, to the occupants. So, we also supplemented. That, survey. Assessment, with measurements. We measured glare using, the. Modified. Camera. System that's in the picture we, performed, the measurements, of the surface. Temperature temperature, of the glass and. Nighttime. We also measured visibility. At night one. Of the concerns was also that because you have more. Glazing. Layers you, the, reflections, on the layers may. Reduce might, reduce. Visibility. At night. We. Also looked at how. Users. Use. The, manual, of right switches. Next. Slide please. So. This this. Plot shows a measurement, on an, afternoon. Shows. A measurement of taken. With that camera or. The glare camera system, the. Metric, that's shown here is called daylight glare probability, and you, usually want to keep it in the Green Zone so under 35%. And. You definitely, don't want to go above. 40%. So. There's, two curves in the glass one was. Taken with the original, glass and the other one taken with the electrochromic, glass so the reduction in measured. Glare was very. Pronounced. And. And. Well in the zone, where we want to be in. Terms, of. Results. From the from. The survey, in, all. The. When, when, asked directly do you prefer the electrochromic. Or the original windows, every. Single respondent, and we have we had a pretty high response, rate for this survey, every. Single respondents. Preferred. The electrochromic, windows, and in. General, there was very. Good support for the statement that this. Change. From. Original, to electrochromic, windows enhances. My, ability to perform my mission. So. Overall, these these results, were very good in. Terms of achieving a glare control. Next. Slide please. We. Also measured, nighttime. Visibility. So. There. Was. When. The lights were on inside the, command, center there was a slight. Degradation of, visibility. To the outside this. Was not considered, an issue from, the perspective. Of the occupants. Both in surveys and in informal, conversations. And. In, general. My. Impression. Was that that. This area of the command center usually has the lights off. Inside. So at. Least in the areas near the windows, so. This did not seem to be a significant. Issue, or, an issue at all for this facility something. It's something to consider for certain, if. Nighttime, visibility is, very very important, in. In. Other situations.
Next. Slide please. So. In, terms of. Planning. Or issues to consider when doing, this type of retrofit. For. Example, an. Inspection booth is, shown in the picture and this is an item that that's. Provided. That's offered, by a manufacturer. In. Its entirety so the windows are not a separate component, they already come with the, with. The booth and, replacing. The windows would, have voided the warranty so, and that's why. A retrofit. Was a. Retrofit. That does not replace the original, window was. Was, chosen here. So. This, means that there. Could be buildup, of dirt heat or moisture, in between, the new window and the original window so these were installed to be operable and they. Are cleaned frequently, and, they. Also, had. Tiny. Vents in order to prevent, heat. Buildup. The. In the command center the retrofit, was done from the inside because. There was the concern. There. Were concerns about. Maintaining. The hurricane. Rating, of the facade, so. But. There were there was a similar, it the, the windows were similarly, operable. And so. Maintenance. Personnel, was able to open them and clean the area between the two systems and that seemed to work well. Without excessive. Heat, buildup, as well that. Proved to not. Be an issue. In. Terms of. Cost. Effectiveness, it was not really there, was no really. Good metrics for a cost-effectiveness, in this in, this. Situation, because, the focus, was not energy. Savings, it was to enhance the, emission. The, ability to perform the mission. In. This facility, which is not there's. Not a clear. Cost-benefit. Metric. Here. In, terms of the alternatives. There are two alternatives. For glare control that, are. That. Are less costly. But. They really don't provide, the same level of functionality, and flexibility. That. That. The electric Roman because we're able to provide here so, you, can have permanently, applied, screens, or films, but. They. For. Example that would probably, have a very bad, impact on nighttime visibility and. So because, you cannot adjust a tint to. Darker conditions, you. Can have operable, screens or films, but they do require adjustments. And so they they require. Attention. Which is something that's at, a premium in a facility like this, and. Similarly. With automated shades we you still have the problem of.
Blocking. The view and the. Movement could also be distracting. And, that's, that's, that's. All, regarding. The oh one more thing the next, slide please so. In, terms of an overall deployment, recommendation. This. This. Technology. Is appropriate, for this type of facility, at land ports of entry and any. Other facility where. Maintaining. Outdoor, visibility is. Is. Critical, when. Even, when, in. Glarry conditions, so, and. With. That I, think, that's the end of my my. Slides. The ground feedback from Amy Amy, take it away. Hello. Everyone my name is Amy Mendoza, I am, with. GSA, I oversee. Server. Property, to being land, port of entry I have. Two border patrol stations and, several, leases. I've. Been with GSA for five years I was. Part of the I, guess, the construction. Of this part of the part, of the project. For. The EC, glass. Next. Slide please. So. The project as mentioned, before it was initiated, by the GPG, program. You. Know some team members were, I was more than all out of the DNC. With. Four in Fort Worth also. It was also transferred, to Jason. Williams. Also. From the DNC, program. And Fort Worth and the. Building manager at the time was nice align them. The. Point of contact for Customs. And Border Protection was, Goliath. Of the time he's retired, now and George. Spelvin. At. That time and, now they've. Been. Providing. With positive, feedback on the EC glass. The. The, glass has given, them you, know it's provided, to minimize. The the, sunlight. For. The command center and so, it's, really improved their mission. So. The. Continuous satisfaction. Is there I haven't. Received any complaints. Or any. You. Know issues. As, far as you know the glare or. Anything. With the sunlight. I've, mentioned earlier that the, sunlight was an, issue back then you. Know in the mornings and in, the evenings, but. You, know with the EC glass is, improved. As. Far as the cleaning, and the maintenance of the elbe. Of. The, EC glass. The. Cleaning requirements have. Been you know just watered. Down, to. Clean the. EEC, glass we. Haven't seen any maintenance issues, on on, the glass you. Know there was one time there. Was a loose wire but. You, know it was taken care of and so, you. Know no issues, after, that. Overall. It's, been a good product, for the, customer. CBP. And. GSA. You. Know it's just happy to have this product in the, land port of entry, and. For. All other building managers, that you, know are out there and I would truly, recommend this it's a really good product to have and, especially in this command centers where. It's, going to improve the CBP. Mission. And. With, that being said I'm. Gonna give it to pop. It also Eleanor, lead. Okay. Next slide please so. Over. The past 15 years lbs, been. Conducting. Monitored, studies of electrochromic, windows, in small pilot applications. So. We'd. Like to thank Kevin Powell MGS. All of the GSA for giving us this fabulous opportunity to, evaluate, electrochromic. Windows, in these large-scale, occupied. Demonstrations. Studies. The, key research questions we, are trying to answer had. To do with human factors, what. Attributes, of the electrochromic, technology. Impacted. Comfort. Satisfaction. Acceptance, of the electrochromic, technology, and also energy savings, the. Second question had to do with value, proposition, and.
The Electrochromic, technology, be cost effective based, on energy savings alone if you factor in all the costs associated with design. Installation, commissioning operation. Of the technology, now. The electrochromic, technology. We would classify as pre-commercial, it's in, the early stages of market, adoption, so. This. Is effectively a really good road test for this technology. Just. Trying to understand, how. We could make. Improvements. To the technology, and how can we. Understand. The market issues. A little bit better than the human factors issues better next slide. The. Study was conducted in. Two. Existing. Large office, buildings, one was located in a sunny, moderate, climate in Sacramento, California and the other one was in a predominantly, cloudy, climate, in Portland. Oregon. Both, demonstrations. Involved, the retrofit, of large. Area, south-facing. Windows. Where. The reference case was a double. Pane lo hee mittens window with manually, operated, venetian blinds, Sacramento. Project involved, all the south-facing offices. Along, its 350. Foot, long facade. On the sixth floor on. The, Portland project, involved, all offices, again on the south-facing, Posada. Also about 350, feet long on. Four. Floor four, of the top floors. The. Study was conducted over. Six. Months also solstice, period with limited monitoring, of, outdoor. Weather conditions, HVAC. Load lighting, energy usage, visual. And thermal comfort and blind position, surveys. Were issued, to the occupants, we, also logged the occupant, complaints, with the facility managers and addressed. Any issues, in. Consultation. With manufacturers. Cost. Associated with. Design. Procurement, installation, operations, were also documented by GSA, next. Slide, now. The performance of electrochromic, windows, is determined, by the windows, switching. Range, how. The ten states are configured, the, zoning of the electrochromic, windows, within, within. The space and then, how the windows were automatically, controlled, so. In sacramento the electrochromic, window, was. The, coating actually, was. Deposited. On a on a clear, glass, substrate, so this resulted, in a really broad switching, range you. Can see the visible transmittance goes, from 0.6, zero down to point zero one. Um. In, the lower portion of the graph you'll see image. On the left-hand side you'll see the different. Tint States tint one being point six zero down, to point zero one that's ten four but, you also notice that the decrease, is, exponential. You go from point six zero down, 2.18. So. That meant that the the. Last three ten states tints in level two through four provided. Significant, solar control in. This sunny, climate. As. Opposed to in Portland, here.
Portland, The. Facility. Manager was trying to match the appearance of the existing, windows since initially. We were only retrofitting. I, think only two parts two floors of the building later on they ended up retrofitting, the more, floors of the building. So. This. Was this. Meant that the existing, condition, which. Had a dark, tinted. Window was, matched with the electrochromic, electronic, coating was deposited, on a dark, tinted substrate, limiting. The transmission. Range so the electrochromic visible, transmit strangelets. 0.36. Down to 0.02, and. You'll notice the solar heat gain coefficient range, is the same as what you're seeing for Sacramento. So. As a. Result the, electrochromic, window, automatically. Was controlled, between 10 levels, 1 & 3, but. We allowed manual, override to any of the 4 10, states, the. 10th level 3 for the electrochromic, was. Basically. Matching. The reference, window condition, so, they had about the same properties, when. The electrochromic was, switched. To the 10th level 3. Next. Slide. So. Tinting some or all of the windows in a space can help can. Affect the the. Solar, control daylight, and comfort levels in a space so. In Portland all the, windows in a zone such as such, private office that would be considered a zone were controlled automatically, to the same tint level so, when the windows were tinted to its, lowest tint level for example the load reduction, on the HVAC, system would. Be as louis but the day light and glare levels would also be at their lowest on the. Other hand in sacramento. The. Manufacturer, could subdivide, a single. Electrochromic, windowpane. Into, sub zones and the control of these sub zones could be done, independently so. For example in this private office, all the upper sub zones across the full width of the window wall were controlled to the same tint same, thing with the middle and the lower sub. Zone so in this photograph the. Upper two sub, zones were tinted 2/10 for for, solar and glare control while the lower sub zones were. Switched. The clear to allow in daylight, the, manufacturer. Tinted the windows automatically. Based on measured. Outdoor incident radiation on, the South facade similar, to what. Was occurring in Donna, set. Point threshold solar, calculation, scheduled events the. Occupants, could override, the automatic control. For four hours and tint the entire window, to one of the four ten levels. Next. Slide. So. What are the results for the HVAC energy, savings in, Sacramento. The that. The load reductions, were actually measured in a separate lab the berkeley lab depants windows testbed which has a similar. Climate to that of sacramento, this. Facility, allows us to take very accurate, measurements, of window loads which. Are pretty, difficult to isolate in real buildings, it, allows us a measurement of within, twenty to sixty watts on an hourly basis, it's, pretty accurate so our, measured HVAC. Daily. And peak. Cooling. Load reductions, to the window range between 25, and 65, percent compared. To the reference clear. Low E glass with, an indoor venetian, blind this. Was achieved with, the, electrochromic, 10 states of two to four which had a. Lower. Solar, control. Capability. Than a higher. Solar control capability, than that then the reference case. Which. Is pictured on the on the right hand side. In Portland, we, actually measured the load inside the actual building, we calibrated, the Vav boxes, to within about four to five percent of the measured load and then compared, daily. Vav, loads in the south zones on the reference and the test floors there, to two parallel, floors all, these measurements were made time'll pain easily, so. This measurement, reflects all the loads in the zone not just the window loads measured in the Berkeley lab test bed I'm. Here, the facility manager, was particularly. Interested, in these results because of the original air handler unit which was designed to serve both the north and south. Sides of the building this. Resulted, in over cooling, on the north side of the building and so, the thought was if the electrochromic, windows lowered, the south side, cooling, load it, would balance the load between the north and south south sides of the building and, improve, thermal. Comfort on the, north side of the building we.
Found That the HVAC loads however, were increased, overall by two percent on the south side, and. We. Attribute this increase, to. The solar optical, properties, potentially, of the electrochromic windows, compared, to the existing windows remember, that the, electrochromic, windows, when, tinted. Automatically. Were, allowed a range of one two three ten levels and. The reference window was equivalent. To that darkest, tint level of tint level three. So. So why were we doing that with the automatic controls the Portland climate is a really cloudy climate, so the predilection, of the occupants, is to have more day lighting that's why the darkest, tint for level was not included, in the automatic control, when. We initially started up the study. Occupants. Were. Pretty, opposed to the use of tent floor even. During. The hot Sun sunny periods later on because of the gloom lack. Of connection, to the outdoors when, all the windows were tinted to its. Darkest, tinted State the transmittance, at the darkest state of you'll recall was the physical transmittance. Of point zero two so. The facility. Managers tinted, the windows to, tent for to. Effectively, pre-cool, the building on weekends, and this. Resulted, in a lower Monday. Morning startup load but, during the window during, the week tint. For was used only, for manual override. Next slide my. Computer went to sleep in. Sacramento, in, terms of lighting energy-saving, Sacramento is a really sunny climate so we found that most of the blinds were lowered to control for glare this resulted, in a 62%. Increase in lighting energy usage. The. Occupants. Used the blinds to control glare when, they electrochromic, windows, or the automatic, control, was presumably, insufficient. Which, resulted. In less, daylight availability, compared to the reference condition, I'm saying presumably, because. Occupants. Use blinds to control for discomfort, but a lot of times they don't end up putting. The blinds up and we'll talk about that a little bit later in Portland. Lighting energy usage was decreased, by 36%. Again. Because a reference window had a visible transmittance that. Was equivalent to the electrochromic. Tint. Level dark tinted State so on overclass cloudy, days the reference window was, just wasn't, able to provide as much daylight as the electrochromic, window, a note, about the blinds on the electrochromic. Floors, we. Tied up the, blinds to prevent use by the occupants, these. Are zip-tied so. That, the. Occupants can use couldn't, use the blinds unless all other options for electrochromic. Control had first been exhausted, if, the occupants wanted the blinds untied we would GSA. Allowed them to do that so initially. At the beginning of the study 90%. Of the blinds were raised. By. The end of the study six months later 85%. Of the blinds were observed to be raised we didn't know whether they were zip-tied, or unzipped eyed we just made periodic. Walkthrough. Through the space and check to see what the blind position, was every month and 85, percent were observed to be raised so, there were about 40% more private. Offices on the electrochromic, floors with raised blinds compared to the reference floor, so. Again occupants, on the reference floor tended, to lower the blinds and keep them lowered, irrespective, of cloudy or sunny conditions, next. Slide a. Simple. Payback was calculated, based on energy. Savings alone these. Energy savings were computed, using simulations. From an earlier study where the trade-offs between HVAC, and lighting energy savings, useless. Was, assumed to be more optimal, than that, seen in these two demonstration. Projects, the. Cost of the electrochromic. Window was based on information provided by the manufacturer. Insulation. Costs were derived from RS means, database. And then data also, gathered from prior GS a window replacement, projects, so. The installed electrochromic, igu was assumed to be at a cost of 61, bucks per square foot we didn't assume placement. At the framing. The. Reference spectrally selected, low e replacement. Assumed to be 24. Bucks per square foot this is the final cost to the end-user. So. If you're considering, new construction, or end-of-life. Replacements. Of a window, the electrochromic, window, was, able to provide proc payback of 13 years if.
You're Thinking about replacing the window an existing. Functional, window with an electro chromic window the payback 429. Years in. Both cases were assuming that indoor, shades are required, particularly, in sunny climates, that. You can't reduce the actual, cost by, not putting in indoor shades we, also assume that reductions. In capital costs due to HVAC, downsizing. Given. That the peak load could, be reduced was, also not included, we. Assume the flat rate of 11 cents per kilowatt hours so if you're in a region that has demand-side. Or, time to views recharges, if. You controlled your electrochromic, to minimize cooling, and lighting loads during the peak periods you, could, potentially have a lower payback. Next, slide. What. About occupant, satisfaction. In. Sacramento. 63%. Of the occupants preferred electrochromic, windows, over the existing windows we, had about 20 responses, received, back from the occupant survey on the electrochromic floor. In. Portland, we saw 85%. Of the occupants in the private offices and. 92%. Of the occupants in the open-plan offices, being. More satisfied, with the electrochromic, compared, to the existing bronze, tinted, windows. In Portland if. We looked at what was statistically. Significant. In terms of responses. Between the. Reference and the electrochromic. Window, the, occupants found that the reference condition, blocked the view more in. The electric Roman goddess and the electrochromic, offices, and they also experienced, less, glare with the electrochromic, windows. Next, slide. There. Was a fair, bit of tuning, that occurred over. The six-month course of study in, Portland, a lot of this was sort. Of a dialogue, between the facility, manager, and the occupants the facility, manager again was very concerned about this air handler handler, unit on and the north side the south side balance. And so they were pushing to. To. See whether people would be more responsive, to, control. Algorithms, at favorite, HVAC, load control, and. We, got pushback. From the occupants about the daylight you know they were very much interested in in, maintaining. Brightness. Within this space so. Getting the controls right to minimize this HVAC, and lighting energy use. Trade offices is one thing that we, learned as is a critical, aspect to being able to achieve energy efficiency, goals they're. Also trade offs between minimizing, glare, and maximizing, daylight that's also a challenge that's. Where you see the blinds coming in. Occupant. Response very pretty. Significantly. Due. To individual, preferences, their sensitivity, location. Of the furniture and the types of tasks being conducted and this is another challenge that we need to be working on next.
Slide. So. It takes kind, of a long time for these electrochromic, windows, to switch this, is a more, extreme example where, the windows are being switched under, relatively. Cool outdoor temperatures. And there's minimum solar radiation, on the window in this example it took about a half an hour for the windows to switch from clear to it's fully dark estate. We. Weren't actually measuring, what the tint states were at the at the time so this is just a, graphical. Depiction of, the. Switching States. But. We know that windows, electrochromic. Windows, which much faster, when it's hot and it's sunny somewhere, between 3 to 10 minutes. Smaller, windows also switch, faster, than the large windows so, in this particular case where we have like a three by six foot window that dimension, is for, switching speed is defined, by that smallest dimension between the bus bars on the edges of the window in. Portland, under partly, cloudy dynamics. Sky. Conditions, and, many. Of the occupants not relying on blinds to control for glare or thermal discomfort, we, found that most were okay with the switching speed in the private offices, occupants. Slightly. Disagreed, they were a little bit blow neutral, that the speed was satisfactory, while in open plan offices. I've been slightly agreed, that's, at six level, that's. Switching, speed was satisfactory, there wasn't really a hugely, strong, response, about speed, being satisfactory, or not not satisfactory. On the scale from one to nine but. We do think that increased switching speed would most. Likely produce a strong response, it. Would, help to reduce, discomfort. If you've got partly, cloudy, conditions. Or, the Sun is coming, out from behind a building, and you meet that that glare to be controlled quickly and. It could potentially lead to less reliance, on the blinds next, slide. So. In terms of lessons learned we. Know that dynamic, windows can provide this, nice. Active. Interface between usually. Variable, solar conditions, and the indoor environment and so specifying, electrochromic, window, with. Clear, substrate. Material, with a clear glass layer can provide the broadest dynamic, range for solar and glare control. That's. What that was what was specified in Sacramento, it, would have been nice to have been able to specify that Portland, application. For. Products that have a, limited, number of 10 states thinking. About whether you have a linear, or exponential, reduction, in tint levels can provide more, or less solar or daylight, control so again, in Sacramento, we wanted better solar control fitted because it tends to be a sunny or hotter climate in Portland so that exponential, tint reduction really, helped with solar control versus, Portland, we, had sort of a stepped linear. Reduction, there. Are continuous. Modulated, electrochromic windows that gives you even more broader, range of options. Zoning. The windows in a space whether, it's within. The space itself or within the windowpane itself it. Also provides, an option for fine-tuning the balance between HVAC. And lighting performance, and, then. We. Believe that providing, manual, override. Of the automatic controls, is is probably, a conservative move, to ensure occupant. Comfort comfort. And. Satisfaction. But, we we, recommend. Holding. Off install installing blinds in the beginning of the project if at all possible just. To encourage occupants, to get give electrochromic, windows, a chance. Assuming. That you've got proper. Control, the. Use of the blinds can be habitual, folks. Tend to be pretty busy with their work and forget to adjust them and this can reduce. A lot of the benefits, that electrochromic, can provide in terms of unobstructed, view, to the outdoors. Getting. The controls right is is it's pretty critical, and, we found in in this and in prior studies that educating, that occupants about, what's. The what, the controls are trying to do and getting their buy-in is, critical, to achieving energy savings goals next. Slide, in. Terms of deployment strategies, we recommend, electrochromic windows for new construction and major renovations based on that payback that we've shown, in this earlier.
Slides, We, also think electrochromic, would, be particularly. Applicable for controlling for peak, demand where that's importance, such. As you. Know oil if you're trying to use low energy cooling strategies or if you're in areas where you've, got demand charges, it's, also applicable for situations, where shades, are impractical or, we're used, to the outdoors are critical, such as we saw with, the Donna study. Ok, so now we're moving to some, input from GSA, like. To introduce. Marty. Hi. Everyone this is Martin moving on the energy program manager for, esa. Region attending next. Like things. I. Was, really, excited about in. Implementation. Of the EZ window, in 911. Building mainly - as Eleanor. Mentioned, to balance, a HVAC. Zoning, on. Our, floors between, south and north zones, we. Had a lot of issues which. We. Have a lot of issues with this system and. It was hoping. That easy windows, would provide a, cheaper. Easier solution. To remedy, this problem. Overall. The easy winners are doing their job they. Have, the ability to reduce. Solar. Heat gain without sacrificing. The use of the outside, we, in the northwest, when, the Sun, comes out, really. Cherished having the use of outside. Bomb, line teams one two and three. Without. That different, from original, window and Eleanor. Mentioned, and tips. For turned out to be too dark for our tenants taste, they. Started, complaining every, time their windows. 92 teeny little, four, so. So, through the software, we were able to. Limit. The attending, that during daytime to. Since, one two and three and, give. The ability to our tenants, to adjust. It in metal for define. When the sword dinner or so long he became intense, is, there a particular zone. Eleanor. Mentioned. The, tenants. Are extremely. Happy with this information, and. Something, that I would recommend for. These. Kind of applications whatever. So. There. Becomes an issue inside. By gel the. Energy savings in our area. An, Aronian mentioned, was, not very. Huge in terms, of cooling. Savings, and that doesn't surprise me because we. Even Northwest have very limited including. Number of hours throughout. A year and most of our energy. Is throughout. The year it used for heating energy rather than cooling energy. Next. Slide please. The. Installation. Is, actually. Creating. A new network outside, at floor or on its floor you. Have a, window. Controller, intelligent, controller, as shown, in the picture that. Hopefully. Somewhere within the middle of the floor and centrally located and. That. Create. And network, between, the window controllers, and the windows. The. Wall switches, which is manually operated. And. Received. Feedback, from one. Segment, one. Solar. Center and somewhere. Installed. Where Sun. Can shine on it potentially, owners absolute. In our case and. The. Intentions, controller, is also connected to internet, for. Manufacturers. The, upgrade, of the software. Troubleshooting. System. Issues. And. Whatever. That may come up during the course of operation, of the windows. We. Make. Sure that the window controllers. Were installed. Somewhere around policy, at all feet away from the windows, you, wanted to make sure that they were accessible. For. Future maintenance, and.
That's. Something. That's very important. I think that window controllers, are probably, the. Most vulnerable. Part. Of this entire network so. Having easy, access to, these window controllers, are very. Important, for future. The. System, has the ability to. Communicator, building automation systems, or other systems, as, well. As the, interface, with a mobile app, we. Did not. Implement. Those two features obviously, because. CIO. Are I. Did. Not like, the concept, of implementing. Or connecting. This software to our GSA. Wide area network. Next. Lexi's. Zoning. Is very important, of course we. Opted. To have one, window controller, as it's shown on the picture of the lower right the. Window. Controllers, are about the size of a ballot, that gets installed inside, a light fixture. And. It's. Basically, each window, controller has its own designated. ID. Number and. Gets. Connected to the, central controller. Manufactured. Cables, pre manufactured cables. The. Windows, comes with a pigtail about four inches long, that. Basically. Come, out of the window and get connected to the network, using. The, pre. Manufactured cables. You. Will you will need to specify, the length of cable to the manufacturer. So that they can make it for you and then. Let's work of course is sensitive, to the length of the cable we. Don't want to get too long there and. Make. A mold legs come from the window to get, connected to the main trunk has. A limited, size that. You have to keep an eye on, we. Made sure that everything. Was within. Manufactured specifications, and. Actually. The manufacturer, helped us. Design. The networking, and designed, the. Windows. In. Each of them it's. Quite, obvious of, course if, you have one, enclosed, office, you, have all the windows on one's own if. You have an open, office. You. Can group the windows. As you want and, create a zone or multiple. Zones. We. Naturally, zone, into, the, floor. Layout of the. Floor. For that for our tenant and. One. Thing to keep an eye on one. Thing that we did for this installation we make sure that it was one controller, installed, for. Each window. Glass for each wheel.
Assembly, That. Gave. Us the flexibility. To adjust the, zoning, in, future, because tenant. Layouts change over time. Next. Slide please. Under. Consideration, is for glass protection, make sure that that, is included. As part of a. Specification. As it goes out. We. Engage. Or we have a glazier, engage, in specifying. The size of the glass as. Well as the thickness. Of the glass. Assembly. Before, it went to the manufacturer. The. Laser actually came to our building, after, hours, opened. Up the frame to one typical. Glass. Assembly, and looked at it and, measured. The actual, dimensions. Of the glass since. It within the frame and, the, maximum. Thickness that it could handle. When. You add a black protection, black protection, of course add additional, thickness to the window, assembly, so you, want to make sure that all of those factors. Are included. In. Your design, before exhaustive manufacturers. Were standing. Next. Slices. We, actually really love this, technology. It's, I, think, a great technology that I have. Across many applications. Before. I came to GSA, and within GSA as well some. Of the applications. That have thought about that we could. Implement. Or, use. In our building, we have a high-performing. Building. In South area. That, it's. Sort, of like a, horseshoe-shaped. Where the center of the horseshoe. Being. All skylights. And. During. Summer when. The Sun is up high, in the sky we, get extensive. Solar solar, load. For. Some, into, some areas of a building. Causes. Glaring issues and cosmic causes, excessive heat and. That. Is the perfect application, for a skylight, to, have electrochromic, windows, and be. Able to adjust, the tint of a glass. Based. On intensity. Of the light other. Applications. In Alaska. When the Sun comes up, in. Summer time you. Have extended, the, solar node throughout. The day, 22. Hours 23, hours is not exaggeration. And, if. You've got a. Group. Of windows that is, affecting. The occupants, through, there or heat buildup and. Electrical. It can. Dramatically. Help in those kind of situations. Another. Application is Boise Idaho we have south. And southwest, facing zones that are, impacted. By solar, mode, and. Definitely. Benefit, from. This. Kind of an application also, like. I mentioned I've come across many, kind.
Of Applications. Like, these. In, other. Buildings. Federally. And fairly. Occupied. Jim. Carter. Him. Good. Good, morning to most of us I guess my, name is Jim Carter I'm the operations, manager for the 911 Federal Building in Portland Oregon, during. This initial. Operation, of the window, it took us a little while to fine-tune, the windows for, optimal tenant comfort, we. Found that that during the summer months we could allow the automatic, controls during the work week but. Then on the weekends what we would do is go ahead and move. All the windows to tint for to reduce solar loading, and, make a Monday start up a little, less taxing, due to the lower core temperature, of the building. We, also used the night purge to assist in this process and, the two combined, proved. To be very effective in allowing. A, one. A quicker. Move. To occupant. Temperatures, optimum. Optimum. Optical, or temperatures, for the for the tenants. And. During. The winter months we, would have. The window set to a tenth one to effect, solar. Gain to. Assist also with the morning startup, and. Of course during the summer both the summer months and the and the winter months the, tenants had the ability to manually control the tent. One. Issue that we did note was because of the windows size it was was, the time it took for the transition, from one level to the next. And. A lot of this was due to the. Problems. Actually, initiated. From the fact that we do have cloudy temperature, or cloudy situations, here clouds. Move in front of the Sun the windows will start to transition the clouds go away and the windows are still in transition so there, was a delay delay, in the reaction, time of course. This, is not a real problem for sunny. Cloudless climates, but the Pacific, Northwest. Is not really noted for that type of condition. Next. Slide please. Blind use by the tenants, was was, minimal, although, we do have a few tenths of our sunlight. Sensitive, and and they would use tint for along with the blinds, blinds. Were also used in the conference rooms so. In this particular situation Nia would be good in these areas to be able to have the capability to move to the two black, out the windows completely, that. Would be for visual. Presentations, and so forth. Next, slide please. Since. We have a taller building directly to the south of us shading. I had an effect since. The Sun sensor. Was located. On on this roof. A single, Sun sensor. So. In. Certain, situations, where the Sun was lower on the in the horizon, part. Of the force would, be shaded. Other. Parts of the force the upper floors would be not shaded, the, sensor would of course detect, the unshaded, portion so the lower windows would be darker than the, upper windows which which did cause some some.
Issues, So. It would be nice, if we had or, it, would be beneficial if we had, sensors. Not located on each floor, that. Would help to alleviate or. Reduce. The need for manual control. We. Kept the system as. A standalone, not. On, the GSA networks so we could maintain connectivity. With the manufacturer. This, was important to the effect that at, times, the. Manufacturer, view would call us to let us know that we had an issue and. Then also they, responded. Very quickly to any problems that we did report. Next. Slide please. We. Would recommend having. A couple of extra windows on hand just in case we. Had two. Windows developed, cracks and, because. These windows are custom, made the replacement took several weeks. It's. Important to remember that also, to specify, a blast film since GSA, requires it on all major replacement, projects. Our new construction. We. Would also we, recommend this technology, if, considering, window upgrades, depending, upon of course your climate and project, goals and. That's. Basically. It. Great. Thank you Jim and Mike. Will, turn it over now for Q&A. And keep them you can if, you have more questions put, them in the chat window. Okay. Thanks Andrea. Mike. Carter asked what advantage you this is EC have over ephemeral chromic. Window glass Eleanor I think you wanted answer that, yeah. Electrochromic, windows, can be actively switched, with a small, applied voltage, thermochromic, are passive, and they react to ambient. Air temperature and incident, radiation we. Did a Denver. Study with GSA, a pilot study. With thermochromic. And, one. Of the outcomes was, that the electrochromic, sorry. The thermochromic s-- would. Switch during the wintertime if they go to the dark tinted state when. The. Sun was on that the low angle winter, Sun was on the window, even though it's pretty, cold outside and this made a pretty, gloomy. Indoor, environment. So, there. Are there, are advantages of electrochromic, being able to be, actually actually switched. Thanks. Clarity asked him can. It should, be combined with the ballistic, features so there's only one white glass I. Don't. Know of Eleanor. One of the manufacturers, would like to answer that. I. Think. This is possible. You. Know I think a lot of GSA's, buildings, use, double. Pane windows with an added. Inter. Layer in order to meet. Their codes for safety. And security I don't. Know what the actual, details, of the. Construction. Are but I don't. Know so I don't know what the cost would be for this maybe somebody at. GSA. Can answer this question. And. I think I know, we. Have a couple of manufacturers one, just. Lost his audio, connection, I don't know from view and, sage. I don't, know if you were able, to answer that question about, combining, the. Ballistic. Features into, the glass. And. Tom. It looks like you're back and if. You want to answer that question. See. It may be that, your line is muted. Okay. Let's try now. Okay. There we go can't hear me now yes. We can hear you okay. Yeah so. The the, electrochromic glass, is typically, incorporated, in a insulating, glass unit, so. Yes. You can there, are options. Where you could potentially, incorporate, a ballistic, pane as the ii. Pain in the igu and come up with a ballistic, combined. Electrochromic. Ballistic, piece I, GU. We. Can't do at, least view can't, do a individual. Pane. That's. Ballistic. And II see it needs to be in an insulating, glass Ian. Okay, thank you, John. Tegan asked what are the private drivers, for ICI windows what is the best guest for square dollar per square foot cost if.
These Windows start to be widely adopted oh no. It looks like you have an answer for that. Well. I'm told that there's a vast. Distinction, between the word price versus, cost so I'm going to talk about cost. Here, the. Department. Of Energy is roadmap, has. Defined. A, cost. Premium goal, of 8 bucks per square foot over. The cost of the standard insulating. The last unit so for example, if if a. Standard. Low e window, is about 24 bucks per square foot installed, incremental. Cost of 8 bucks would bring you, and. Say 24, it, would bring you up to about 32. Bucks per square foot and I think a lot, of the manufacturers, have said, they're. They're aiming for a. 35. Bucks per square foot installed cost and so a, lot. Of the issues. With actual, price, and. Then, you, know how the installer actually, bids out the installation, of this, technology, will we anticipate. To to. Come down as manufactures. And installers, become. More. Comfortable with the cars. Installs become more more, comfortable, with it's. Only these types of windows and then, as the manufacturers achieve greater. Volume, on the product we also anticipate, that the actual cost and potentially, the price to to, come down I don't know if that manufactures, want to have a comment, on that as well. And. Then Carly asked how much cost increase was seen by installing, one controller, per window versus, per zone and. Wondering if the manufacturers. Could answer, that question. With. Regards, to view, we. Always install, one. Window controller per per, window that's that's that's the way we do it, so. There's. No, cost difference for doing that because that's ours our standard installation method. Okay. Thank you yes. Thank you, and. Then I. Reworded. My own question so. I'm wondering if it's common. To see targeted, installations, in the buildings so the label appears south, side of course is the size, of the building that face is much. More significant, heat, gain and and. Solar. Glare is, do, you see examples of target installations, what you you, will just install you, see glass on the south side but the rest of the building will have normal, glass and that's a question I guess for Eleanor and the manufacturers. From. From our limited. Experience, in in, actual. Deployment than in the marketplace, we actually, haven't seen this but I would expect this is something that's completely. Up to the architect, or the. Facility manager as to where they think. Electrochromic. S' would be best installed, so I leave, it up to Sage, in view to comment on on, how, their. Time. From view again it's. Actually surprisingly, uncommon. There. There's been a few cases, where people have wanted to do that just to you. Know minimize the additional cost from AC windows but. The. Vast majority, of our projects. It's. Been used across the whole building, that. Said yes of course the impact is greatest, on the, south, east and west facades, because. They do tend, to get the most. Direct. Sunlight and glare. Hi. This is Betsy pod Belsky with sage we, finally have gotten off of mute so I'm sorry we haven't been contributing. Here. Typically. The the, EC glass will be installed across the entire building, there, are, you. Know installations. Where the, North facade doesn't, have our glass but. Typically for uniformity. In the, facade they will install this everywhere, and. If I could just skip back real quick I know there was a question on the controller's. Stages. Controls, are. The same whether you want to control one pane of glass one. Sub. Pain within a piece of glass or if you want to do you. Know an entire group of windows so. So, the control can be modified but, there is no difference in what we install, in order to do that.
So. It's kind of the same thing in that there, is no difference in doing one window part of a window or an entire zone in. Terms of the control. We. Were having thank you sorry. About that. No. Problem thanks for figuring. It out, yeah. And then David and I'm sure others are wondering. If we can send you the presentation when it's done and yes. We'll be making it available on, our website at, the gsa.gov. And. I find it happen it's easy, to dashi. Google. Gsa.gov. /g. Peih-gee erik. Asks. Is there sufficient window, data available, to know with a lifespan of ec windows will be the. Pre installed ec, windows when. Do you expect to have to replace them. This. Is Betsy from sage again we've. Been doing commercial installations, since 2004. That. Are still functional, so, you. Know we. Have that data. There's. NREL testing, that has gone through many. Many. Iterations of, tinting and clearing the glass that also, shows, the. Durability of the product. Yeah. And all that so these electric korvac windows use they're. All in organics, so essentially they're using, metal. Oxides, and ceramic, layers that are extremely, durable. Most, manufacturers, including. View go through a test, protocol, which is the ASTM e 21 41 which. Is an accelerated, test protocol, where you take the window and. You cycle, it's 50,000. Times under, full sun exposure and 185. Degrees Fahrenheit, and. It's supposed to be a 30-year accelerated, test, and, you know we've passed that with no degradation. So. We, don't. There's no expectation. That the EC layers will fail you. Know anytime in a typical 30 year building lifetime, as. With all as with. All windows the the weakest part of an IG you is the seal and. That's the most likely part of a window to fail whether it's a electrochromic. Window, or traditional. Thank. You is there any jahn teigen ask is there any data on toenail cost for ec windows how. Does that compare the standard windows. And. I'm going to attach him to. No. Difference really in, the, cost. Of. Maintenance for the windows. Normal. Cleaning didn't affect the window, operations. Or, performance. At all so that I would, say as minimal to no difference. Between a. Okay. Thank you and, then. See. Mike Reagan asked and different manufacturer. Quality mix unless. You always go back to the OEM the Original Equipment Manufacturer. Control. Systems, for the, for. The manufacturers. That are out there right now are, entirely, different. So, you wouldn't, be able to swap one window out and put in one, of the other manufacturers, at. This time. Okay. Thank you, and. Then my pregnant, second question can. The manufacturers. Produce. Windows, that would match existing. Product, colors or a certain window color. But. It's. Betsy again, you. Know it matches, a difficult, word to use considering. That we are dynamic.
Products, Right, right, you know we. Can. We. Will compliment. Other, colors, other glass. You. Know if you match at one stage you're not going to match at the other states so it's kind of a tricky word but there are certainly complementary. Colors. And and. Materials. That we can use. Yeah. I think I think i'ma go. Go. Ahead sorry. The question was do replacement. Electrochromic, products. Match in color so if you don't order enough windows and something gets broken and you have to replace it would it match. The. Existing, electrochromic, windows. We. Had a couple replacement, windows put in they were manufactured, after the. Main. Group. And we. Found no difference in the color tint. So. And, we even closely matched our existing, windows with, the exterior and. Of course you, would notice as the tints change in electric Romek windows you would notice some some difference but it was really minimal, you had to really look to see which. Ones were or, what it but you'd have the same type of situation you. Know people lowering and raising blinds. With. The different, appearances. Of the outside but for the most part we. We pretty much pretty closely matched our existing, facade. Ok, thanks and thanks I'll know for the clarification. Stuart. Asks, is this technology applied, to standard, glazing, or is it built-in, in quotes built into the glass I think. The, view. Kind of answer that any. Addition. Thanks. CJ. Tasks in dense, urban conditions. With high-rises. Fully glazed buildings, close by it helps to have. EC, on Miller. Never. Once are that's a not, a question. That's a comment so skip that. Jayne, silk asks. Typically. Surface applied blast film is only effective, for about 10 years. The last film inside these IG use degrade, or come layout you know potentially, last longer. For, the view ideas that were installed in Portland. I believe, the blast film I don't, remember if they did the I. Don't. Recall and maybe somebody from from Portland comment on this, the blast ohm wasn't inside the igu it was on the I believe is on the EP inside.
Surface. For so. On, the outside of the ITU so. It wasn't actually incorporated, in. The middle of the, electrochromic, igu. In. Between. And, that's why we had to use a thinner, inner, pane, because, the distance between the, electrochromic. Coating, and the blast film had. To be s it was a specific, distance so, it was on the inside and then so. The issue was you know how thick is that inner pane. In. Order to be able to incorporate, that within. The within, the glass and. The, reason for that going, on the inside of the glass was we had a specific width. That we had to match to in, order to fit into our framework. So. Just, to clarify was, it inside the idea wasn't that Whittle I think it might have been a laminated, inner light it. Was inside, the. My. Misunderstanding that I posit. Thank. You and last question David. Asked what is the range and solar heat gain coefficient for. Different tint levels L&R, I think you were gonna take that yeah. This was actually shown on the slides it. Was I think it went from point four three or 0.45, down to 0.09. Okay. Great thank you and, Rania I think that's it for the question. I'm. Wondering on that last question whether, that was a question, there. Is that, true Eleanor, for, all windows. Or is that specified. During. Manufacturing. It's. It's dependent, of course the composition, of the window so the glass, layers. Substrates. You, know in fact meant it was a clear, straight that the electrochromic, coating was deposited, on, versus. Attempted, but, but we saw that there wasn't a significant. Shift in the solar heat gain coefficient between, the Sacramento in Portland even though you, know the substrate was clear in one case and tinted. In the other case. It's. Altered also depending on where you put the lowest coating, some. Of the electrochromic, technologies. Have built in low e capabilities. Or you can add a low, e coating, to the inboard. Glazing. Layer but. I'll, let the manufacturers, also take a hack.
At This question. It's. Basically. Eleanor you you of course were spot on, IG, you makeup does, have some impact, on it if, you're going with a double, pane whether you're going with a triple. Low, E is added, where you're adding that low E all of those have impacts, I, believe. Out there. If. You search for any, data, I know, we have some information, out there that gives that information. For different igu makeups, with different, components in different, coatings, and and. I'm sure I'm, sure my counterpart. At View has the similar information, out there that you can find. Yeah. Exactly I mean it, depends. On the it depends on the IG Omega our standard, dual. Pane I GU with like for chroma coating and clear glass goes. From SHGC, of about 0.4, one down, to 0.09. But. We can change that by using triple. Tinted. Mate lights low E glass it really depends on the itu configuration. Great. Thank you and with. That we'll. Turn it over to which will answer Alexander's. Recent. Questions so there, this. Attending. This webinar does. We. Do offer one continuing, education, learning unit and you. Can request that credit, by, completing, the survey that, you'll receive shortly. Within. The next twenty minutes and if, you don't receive that survey please contact my cobson. And, with that thank. You all thanks, for all the presenters and, all the participants for, today's, webinar and we, look forward to seeing you on next, month's planet webinar, thank. You. Thank. You everyone.