Our next panel is going to talk about some, some. New. Innovations, in. Firearms. Examination. Our. First. Speaker. With. Respect to this panel I've already introduced. Moderator. And speaker and speaker Matthew, gamut earlier but. Our. First speaker for this panel will be Daniel Lamont, he. Is a forensic. Scientist, with the Baltimore Police Department, he began his career in. With. The Baltimore, Police in. 2005. And. Was. Served. As a, crime. Crime. Lab technician. Then. Moved, into. Firearms. Examination, unit, in 2007. In. 2010. He. Was, promoted, to firearms, examiner, and has now had. Approximately nine, years experience, as a firearms, examiner he's. Testified, as an expert witness in firearms identification. Operability. And examination. Approximately. 300 times he's a member of the, Association. Of firearms, and tool-mark, examiner's. Also. On the panel is Jason. Cole, Jason. Began his career as, a police, officer in Sandy, City Utah. In. 2001. He, left that department, and began working, in. A, Forensic, Services position, in West Valley Utah. Where. He worked for, approximately. Nine years, and. During. That time he, was, awarded the Utah, International. Association of, identification. Award. For. His. Work. He. Left. That. That. Position for, a latent, print examiner, position. In Henderson, Nevada, Police. Department, I. Meant. To say that the award that, Jason, received, was an award for outstanding. Achievement and. He, received that in 2005. In. Nevada, he served as the Nevada. Division, of the International. Association of, identification. Board, of Directors and he's been their representative. Since. 2010. At. The, national. Level he. And. He's. On their berra board of directors, he, is currently working. As. A. Specialist. A subject. Matter specialists, for, foster. And Freeman. Who. Work. With, forensic. Materials, and and equipment, for. Individual. Departments. And agencies, so. I'll turn, this over to Matthew, gammit. Thanks. Matt so part of the value, that we hope to bring to this. Conference is bringing. In practitioners, to talk about what's going on in the field and also what's new in the fields so we're hoping to do here is to talk a little bit about firearms examination, and, a little bit of a new model something, we're trying something that Matt and I have visited a long time about which, is we're gonna bring in the basics, of firearms, analysis, we're just gonna talk very basic what do you need to know if you're a prosecutor defense, attorney and, you have a firearms, analyst that comes up to testify what, are some of the basics of this science he's also going to talk about some of the techniques and technologies, that are available then. We're going to transition and we're going to talk about a technology because, the other thing that's really important, to know is there, are a lot of new things coming, about in the field not. Only in in, firearms but there's also this new technique that we're going to talk about that kind of combines firearms. And latent. Prints so, we want to talk about the technology transfer, from, being, developed all, the, way to getting into the laboratories. That you understand, that process and also. So that you can see some of the new technologies, that are exciting they're coming about in the field so, we hope that you enjoy this panel today and without further ado I'm going to turn it over to our firearms, examiner, Daniel. Take it away. Good. Morning. Thank. You for having me here some, of what I'm gonna go over is as matt, said, fairly. Basic one, thing I found in testifying as much as I have is. The. Idea. Of firearms, examination, and the science of it is understood, and and it can, be conveyed but, when I get to understand what I find is not only state's attorneys, but. Defense attorneys will. Start asking questions and some, of the basic terminology that's, basic to me being in the field and a gun person is not. Basic, to everybody else and as I start talking about, marks, that I'm looking at individual, characteristics, things like that I see.
Blank Locus in the, middle of a trial so. It never really occurred to me that that type of stuff that again, is so basic to someone that does it every day isn't. Really basic. Than anyone else one, of the problems that we found especially in, Baltimore, is. One. Of the ways to fix that quickly is pretrial, conferences, which I know, is under the gun as I am in the lab the. Attorneys are the same way so it's, rare for us to have a pre-trial, conference. The. Biggest problem with that is when we get called to court with. State's attorney that it's their first gun trial and we. Pretty much instantly know when it's their first gun trial because they have no idea what. To ask us a pre-trial. Conference could. Have definitely helped that and made it go a lot smoother, so. I try, to do them even if it's over the phone of a state's attorney calls me and I understand it's their first trial second trial I'll. Quickly kind of have, a pretty trial with them just to give them basic terminology, to understand, this. Is what you should ask me these are the terms I'm gonna use as, basic. As it is to me it's not to you and it's that also means it's not that to the jury so they're not gonna understand what I'm talking about. So. What. I'll go over quickly is the, principles and science of firearms examination, I'm. Gonna give a very brief history of, how, firearms examination, began, the. Comparison, of fired. Evidence. Our. Range of conclusions, what it is we may be able to tell you about the evidence and, it depends, on the evidence itself what we're going to be able to conclude. About it and then. I'm gonna very, briefly touch on some. Other tools that we use in firearms a new, system that's being used that. Is not, technically firearms, examination, related. But it is impacting, what we do in the firearms lab. Sort. Of start. To. Mark identification. Is a forensic science that, has as its primary concern, the determination, of whether or not a tool mark was. Made by a specific, tool firearms. Falls under this science in that the firearm, in a case is the, tool being used. So. There's three. Main types of tools that, are going to leave marks there's compression tools which shows, the outline of, the tool actually being used and. Firearms. That would be the breach face and leaving, a mark or the the, fire event leaving a mark on the cartridge case there. Are sliding tool marks which are it. Shows the, parallel. Striations, when a tool slides, against, another, surface. In firearms. That would be the. Landing guru striations. Left on a bullet as it travels down the barrel of a firearm and then, there's cutting tool marks which would be scissors, or wire cutters, actually cutting through a surface. So. The. Process for firearms exact identification, is that is the microscopic comparison, of these individual, marks, in. The potential identification. Of bullets, and cartridge cases, to. A unique, firearm, to one particular firearm this. Foundation, is based, on, three. Main principles, those. Three principles are in firearms. That, the rifling, of the barrel of a firearm and, the markings on the breech face and the firing pin of, a. Firearm bear unique microscopic. Mark, this. Is due to manufacturing process. Use, and wear of that, particular, tool, these. Characteristics, mark, the bearing surfaces, of the bullets and cartridge cases, during the firing, of a firearm. And these. Individual, characteristics. Are reproducible. And identifiable. To a particular, firearm. So. To give just a very brief how did this begin. It. Was started by Calvin, Goddard in 1925. Where and he modified, a comparison, microscope to, be able to look at two pieces of fired, evidence, bullets, and cartridge cases at the same time to be able to compare them, to. Look at markings, back and forth between the two to. Determine whether or not they, match each other and we're possibly, fired from the same firearm, this. Was actually done right, here in New York City he ran a group, called the forensic, the, Bureau of forensic, ballistics in. 1929. The. St.. Valentine's Day Massacre took. Place and Calvin. Goddard was actually. Asked, to, come. In and look at the evidence from, that case. They. Found. A suspect in, that case they removed guns from that suspects, house they asked Calvin Goddard to look at the bullets, and cartridge cases from the scene to this suspects, guns, that was recovered after this crime, happened. Cam, gonner was able to identify the evidence back to these particular firearms. From this suspect in. Doing that he not. Only became. The father of forensics, firearms identification, but. At the time the Chicago Police Department was actually being accused, of carrying out the st. Valentine's Day Massacre trying.
To Rid the, city of gang. Crime in, doing, this he was able to show the Chicago, Police Department actually, had nothing to do with it was able to clear their name in being a part of that massacre, that took place. So. The, comparison microscope which, Calvin got or modified, is still the primary, tool used in firearms examination, today. Utilizes. Two different stages where you can then look at multiple. Pieces of evidence at the same time manipulating. Them back and forth under light to be able to look at the two pieces together under, the oculars. So. Firearms, examination, what, we're looking at it's based on the unique reproducible. Striations, and impressions, produced during the normal functioning, of a firearm. These. Marks make it possible to identify cartridge. Cases and bullets back to a particular firearm and that's, based on different markings and this is where I hope I don't bore you because it's just a few definitions of, again, things that I can. Spout out easily but, most people have no idea the actual parts of the guns that I'm talking about so. It's based on firing. Pin impressions breech. Face markings. Chamber. Marks and land and grooves grooves off striations. This. Slide here is just an example of something we'd be looking at the, head of the cartridge case the. Center. Indent, would be the firing, pin impression, the. Parallel. Lines going around that and on, the silver. It's. From the breech face markings, and they can reach all the way out to the rim of the cartridge case also so these are markings that we're looking at so. Let me just, give you a brief explanation of. What these, marks are, and how they got there firing. Pin impression, is the, indentation and, the primer of a centerfire cartridge, case or on the rim of a rimfire cartridge, case like a 22 that's. Put. There by the firing pin actually striking the cartridge case when the trigger is pulled on the gun the. Breech base marks, which again are the parallel, lines that you see around, that firing pin impression, our marks. Characteristic. Of the breech under the firing pin when, the firearm is fired that cartridge case is pushed backwards, as the bullet goes down the barrel and the, marks on that breech face can be transferred, over to the cartridge, case before it's ejected from the gun.
Chamber. Marcus. Which. These, are just different examples, of different shapes and and, markings. On firing pins and breech faces. Chamber. Marks are marks that can actually be put on the, sidewall. Of the cartridge case and the way they get there is a, couple. Different ways just from the actual chambering, of a live cartridge, putting the cartridge into the chamber of the gun can, leave marks on that when. The gun is fired those chamber walls actually expand from the pressure those. Chamber marks inside that barrel and chamber can be impressed. On to that and then actually when it's extracted, and pulled out of the gun chamber. Marks can be left on that so it's just another marking. That we can look at on a cartridge, case. For. Bullets. There, there's Landon grew striations, so as the bullet travels down the barrel of a gun the. Markings, inside the barrel of that gun can be transferred, on the side of the bullet as it's going down, there's. Basically, two main types of marks we look at their striations, and there's impressions, striations, or contour, variations, on the surface of an object that's caused by both a combination of force and motion, that. Would be the bullet going down the barrel as it slides down the barrel of that gun the. Landing groups tribes. Are forcing. Themselves onto the bullet and they're, also being put, on it has the bullet actually goes down the barrel, impressions. Or surface contours, that are caused just. By force, firing. Pin hitting, the actual primer, the, breech face slamming. Against the head of the cartridge case just that force alone are the impressions that can be left. So. What. Are we looking at what types of marks there's three main. Types of marks and Firearms examination, that's the class characteristics, subclass. Characteristics. And individual, characteristics. Excuse. Me, class. Characteristics. Are. Measurable. Features, of a specimen, which indicate a restricted, group group. Source these are made. Prior, to the actual tool being made this is decided this, will be things like the shape of the firing pin the, shape of the breech face the caliber, of the weapon itself. Also. General. Rifling characteristics the. Twist of the lands and grooves inside the barrel how many there's going to be that's a class characteristic. That is decided, long, before anything. Else is designed. Individual. Characteristics. Are marks, produced by the random. Imperfections. Or irregularities. Of tool surfaces, these. Imperfections, are, produced, incidental, to manufacture, these, are the marks that are caused by use, corrosion, or damage and they're unique to a specific, tool and distinguish, it from all other tools. Subclass. Characteristic. Excuse. Me our, surface, features of an object that are more restrictive, than class characteristics. They're, produced incidental, to manufacture, they, relate to a smaller group source, and they change over time due to change, of manufacturing, process, and tools being used. So. When. We're looking at these marks what, exactly are we trying. To get to what are we looking for what are we trying to determine, after. You which is the Association, of firearms and tool marks examiners. Came. Up with a theory or a range of conclusions, that, we, follow it's. Pretty, much followed by firearms, examination, there's. Four main, conclusions, that we can come, to there's. The identification. Which, means there's an agreement of all class characteristics. And individual, characteristics. For us to identify that, these two pieces of evidence fired, from the same firearm there's. An elimination which, is a, significant. Disagreement, of possibly. Class characteristics, and/or, individual, characteristics, they, tell, us that these two pieces of evidence don't match if I have a nine millimeter cartridge, case and I have a 45 caliber cartridge. Case without, doing any type of microscopic, examination. I can, tell you that they do not they're, not going to match they don't come from the same firearm because, they're two different calibers, there's no way for them to have been fired from the same firearm. On, an inconclusive result. Basically. Happens when there is some, agreement of class characteristics, and. Some agreement, and disagreement of, individual, characteristics, meaning. That their, main just not be enough marks on the evidence most of the evidence that we receive in Baltimore, and I'm sure throughout most crime labs is not perfect, it doesn't look like a perfect bullet. We. Get portions, of it we get things that aren't marked at all just because of the different ad moves that that's.
Used Different guns that are used just don't mark as well so, there can be inconclusive, results, where we just we can't tell an. Investigator. Whether, or not these match there may be close but there's just not enough information for, us to give, them a definite, answer the. Last conclusion. Is unsuitable, that. Basically just means that we get a lot of evidence that just, has nothing, it's damaged we get portions, of bullets just a small bullet jacket fragment, from from. The morgue from the hospital, where, there's just no microscopic, marks on the evidence there's absolutely, nothing for us to do but to identify and just tell you at, best would it might be a piece of a bullet a piece of a lead fragment something of that nature. So. What. Exactly are these conclusions. Based on in. 1985. At. The association, of firearms tool-mark examiner's. Their. Criteria for identification committee, formalized, the theory of identification. As it relates to tool marks this, theory in articulates. Three principles, that provide the conceptual, basis for comparing fired evidence. First. One of those is that theory, of identification. Enables, opinions, of common origin to be made when unique surface contours, with two tool marks excuse, me are insufficient, agreement, that. Sufficient, agreement is related, to the significant, duplication, of random tool marks as evidenced. By the correspondence. Of a pattern or combination, of patterns of surface. Contours, and. After. Does understand, that. The interpretation. Of individualization, and, identification is, subjective, in nature but. It's based ill excuse. Me but founded on scientific, principles and, based on the examiners training, and experience, that they go through and and in working casework over the years. There. Is, research. That I'm definitely, not going to get into I think the next section actually, gets a little further into it but I won't mention it and. I actually have a slide a little in a few just giving. A couple of the ideas there. Is research going into trying to quantify. What. A firearms examiner sees. There's. Research, been going for years trying to do that as. You see in a slide I have, a couple of them listed just different, basically. Names of what they're looking at the. Different researchers, are using different. Techniques, and coming up with different ideas. It's. Not something right now that it's generally accepted just. Because it's. Still being worked. It's still being researched and I think what, we're seeing is that, quantifying. That research. Is a little, harder than maybe. It was thought to be. So. One. Of the other tools that we use there's your basics, of firearms examination, some, definitions, I hope I didn't bore you too bad I know it can be very basic one. Of the other tools that we use in firearms examination. Is, Nayan or ibis system Niveen. Is the National integrated ballistic, information network Ibis. Is the integrated, ballistic identification system. The actual computer, acquisition. Station. Navon, uses 3d technology. To. Attempt. To link cases. The. System is. Run. By a private company called ultra electronic, forensic technology and, it's distributed, and subsidized, by ATF, the, way. Ibis works is basically. Going. Back and see, if i can find it quickly. Going. Back to this slide just used as an example what Ibis, does is you take one of those cartridge, cases, you actually insert, it into the, acquisition. Station, that. Acquisition station. Then takes. All, kinds of digital images, from, different lighting, it does a three-team 3d, topography. Of the firing pin and breech face impression, and it. Searches against. The. Rest of the network looking, for images that may be similar to that cartridge, case that was put into the system. When. That cartridge, case has searched. Correlation. Results, come back an examiner. Then sits down and looks at those correlation, results, to see if there's any possible, links between cases that we didn't know of now. ATF. Recently, within. The last maybe. Eight months has, actually changed their protocol, on what, firearms, units, are doing now with that information.
What. We used to do with that information was, if we, saw what might possibly be a link we. Would have to have an. Actual examination, of the evidence so if there was a case we put in and it looks like it may be matched to another case with. In microscopic we compare those cartridge. Cases, and do, a full examination and. To, determine, whether or not they were in fact a match to each other, this. Could be very time-consuming and, that you're. Linked up by region, in, so for Baltimore, we're, linked up to, probably. 25. Other departments. In the general area of us in, Maryland, there's about 8 of them but. It goes to Delaware, Pennsylvania, State, Police New. York Ohio. So, if you have a correlation. That looks like it may match to another jurisdiction. It's. Not always easy to transfer. That evidence, go to that lab or then come to our lab and do the examination some, of this could be very time-consuming meaning. That information, wasn't getting to an investigator, in a real timely manner. So. What. Atf, switched, to was an Ibis lead system, what. That does is. We. Look at the correlation still the exact same way we did if we see one that may be a possible, connection, we, have a second examiner, look at it on the system we're, not looking at the physical evidence we're looking at the images that Ibis, has brought back to us if. We, agree that they may be a potential match we, send out with with, what, is called an Ibis, lead that. Information. Goes out to our investigator, to let them know that there is a potential Ibis lead, between. These two cases possibly, more cases if they've already been linked to something else that. Ibis. Lead we. Let them know that it is not a confirmation. We have not microscope when we compared this evidence these. Cannot be used and it says on our paperwork, that it is a lead only it's not confirmed as you can see. They. Cannot use this for establishment, of probable cause for warrants because, we have not microscopically. Confirmed this information, we. Let them know that this may be a connection if they, would like to find, out and have, that evidence, microscopic we, compared they then have to put a request in to the firearms lab for, us to physically, do that microscopic, comparison to give them a definite, answer of whether or not that that evidence matches, to each other. So. Go. Back as, of. Mid May of 2019. Baltimore. Police Department has had two thousand, three hundred and eighty confirmed, Ibis 'it's their, hits that we matched that. Detective. At the time did not know was connected, to each other it's not that they put a request in to compare, we let them know through, Ibis that these cases are connected to each other. The. Ibis, lead system went into effect September, of 2018. For Baltimore police we were one of the first ones that actually put it into. Rotation. Since. Then, through. Basically. The end of this month May we. Have had we've, sent. Out 475, Ibis. Leads while. Only confirming, due, to a comparison. To request, to compare this evidence and confirm it we've only confirmed about 65, of those leads. So. The other ones that we've put out we've gotten no requests to compare them and and confirm. That they are in fact a match. That. Would come from the investigator, it's, it's, helped with us and that we can do them quicker now because we're not inundated with Ibis, confirmations. We're, only confirming, the ones that are requested, so for request, does come in we're, usually able to do that confirmation within. The next 48, hours as long as we have the evidence at our disposal, to be able to do that right away. One. Of the other systems we instituted. With this lead system, is a, pre screen system.
What. We had. In Baltimore Police Department because we, were we, were very much backlogged. We, at one time we're down to five full time examiner's. Evidence. That was coming in from, shooting, or homicide, today, was. Not even being put into the Ibis system sometimes, for up to a year, we. Would then finally get to that case we. Put it in the system we'd see hey this homicide, from last year matches a homicide from the year before we'd. Let the detective, know it's, been a year there 50. Cases away from that one it's it's, really no help to them, so. What we do now is evidence. That's submitted to the crime lab this firearms related if it's Ibis eligible meaning it has cartridge cases and. That evidence is pre-screened, an examiner. Looks at that evidence, with. It's not microscopically. We use a jewelers eye Lube to just go through if a. Case, is submitted with ten cartridge cases, each one of those ten cartridge cases, is looked at it's. Determined, without. Magnet, without microscopic. Work that there may be two. Examples, of two different guns and have been used in this case, one. Of them each of them so two examples would be put into the Ibis system this. Is done within 48 hours of receiving, that evidence, with, a potential, lead that may come. Back to us being sent out to that detective, again. Within 48 hours of the case actually happening a lot, of this is actually happening, we say 48 hours, any. Evidence that we would get today will. Be pre-screened, and put on the Ibis system by lunchtime. Tomorrow with. A lead coming out immediately after that so we're actually letting investigators, know sometimes within 24, hours that, their case may be connected to another case lets them speak to another detective, who maybe has something that they didn't have. It's. Definitely. Getting the information out there quicker it has, definitely put a larger. Burden on firearms. Unit to get that information, into the system as quickly as possible so. As. Mentioned. Previously again. I'm not going to talk on it much I don't have. Much information there. Are different methods being used or, research, for quantifying. The. Firearms. Examination, a, couple. Of these are the. Consecutive, matching, striae consecutive. Matching cells total, matching lines of percentage, matching lines I. Believe, the next session, is going to speak on different ways of quantifying that. Is being researched so these are just some examples of, research that is taking place that's. Been taking place for quite some time and continues to take place to. Get, us to some type of quantifiable. Answer regarding. Our matches. Or inconclusive, things, of that nature. Once. This term that is being used. Not. Only through Ibis as i noted but there are companies, and now labs using, different. Microscopes. That do 3d typography, basically. What 3d tomography does is, it. Takes. A. Super. Enhanced, image of the. Cartridge, case letting, you see different things that the naked eye may not be able to see under the microscope. Different. Labs are using 3d topography, systems now the, FBI I believe, does, use that system Baltimore. Police actually put in for a 3d topography. Microscope. We. Did, not get the grant for it it's. I, believe the cost of it was about a hundred and thirty thousand, dollars so we are looking to we've we've, done our research we've had some presentations, done for us to be able to see what it actually does and how it works. One. Of the good things about 3d. Topography, is it, does yield additional reliable. Reproducible. Images, for examiner's, and, 3d, topography, is working, towards quantifying. Our. Science, also so they're working in conjunction with some of the other research going on to quantify that. One. Of the good things with 3d topography, is, if. Different labs, have the same software, they're, able to transfer, those images back and forth which, is hopefully working, towards, what I was speaking of earlier where you had to physically, go. To another lab to do the physical comparison, with, these 3d two powerful topographical.
Images Getting, more advanced. There's. Thoughts that that. Type of comparison maybe I would have done be done over the computer at some point using the 3d topography. Rather than traveling between labs. Which can get the information again quicker, than. We've ever been able to do it. One. Additional tool final, thing, that I'm going to speak goes to this. Is one of the ones it's not really, firearms. Examination, related, but it's definitely impacting. The firearms, unit and, it's just another tool being used to. Fight the gun crime. Especially. In Baltimore City which if you read the news where we're. Having a rough time we're, getting there though I hope. This. Tool is called shot spotter shot. Spotter is a private, company that came up with this system. That. Works with police departments the. Way ShotSpotter works, is it's a system of sensors. That are placed, throughout different, areas of and, again I'm going to use Baltimore City because we do actually have the system, sensors. Are put in different areas. Throughout the city most of them being high crime. What, the sensors do is when, a shot is fired, when guns are fired those, sensors instantly, pick up that gunfire. Shot, spotter. Within. 60. Seconds, we'll send. Information to, their. Their, people. They. They claim in some of it I have seen that they'll, tell you how many shots were fired in some, instances, they're even reporting, what caliber may have been used that. Information is sent to someone. At shot spotter they instantly review that information if they determine that yes shots were fired this. Needs to be alerted, our. Patrol officers have a program, an apple on their phone that that'll. Be sent directly to whoever's, patrolling, that area to let them know in the last 60 seconds shots were fired in this area they, claim they can get the area down to a within, 60 feet of where their shots were fired that. Instantly, sends officers, without having to be dispatched, they're actually dispatched through the app to. Head, to that, area. Possibly. Finding, a shooting taking place or at least someone maybe fleeing the scene where, before you're. Dispatching, it's gonna take several minutes maybe, longer than that to get an officer there. Just. Some some quick stats. One shot spotter they I found pretty interesting because again it's not a program that the lab is running but. It is something that we're starting to learn more about because, we're getting a lot more evidence sent to us now. Baltimore. City the. Shot spotter system, went live, in the spring and summer of 2018. We have an in East, Baltimore in West Baltimore in. 2018. There were eleven, hundred and seventy two alerts from the shot spotter system. 80. Of those Beth 6.8%, had. Either a corresponding, Ibis lead or hit some, of them multiple, leads and hits reaching out to different cases that we did not know about, in. Through, April of 2019. The. Shot spotter had 775, alerts. 56. Of those have, had leads, or hits again. Some of them branching out to multiple. Cases that are now connected, through the Ibis, system, one. Thing that I found interesting. About ShotSpotter is that, a 2018, report for Baltimore City itself, showed.
That About 18%. Of ShotSpotter calls. Had. An Associated, 911, call it, means that 82%. Of those alerts from ShotSpotter where officers. Were then dispatched, and, possibly finding evidence of gunfire, we. Never received a 9-1-1 call so an investigation, never would have even taken place when, I say what that's knowing for fire examination. Is it sending us more evidence. We're. Getting more evidence because officers, are actually responding the scenes that they never would have responded to before because they were never alerted, to the fact that there were shots fired so they knew didn't, know to go to that scene so. Shot spotter is impacting, firearms examination, and that we're, getting more more, work to do. So. That's, just that's, the the, last tool I have to speak about regarding. Firearms. Examination, I, know that the research just continues, it, can only. Make. Firearms examination, I think better for the court system better for what we do as we continue to do the research and. Move, forward, for, firearms, examination, for not only us but also for. The legal system throughout the states thank. You. I'm. Sorry. Sure. PCAST. Give. Me one second I apologize. The. Practical. Certainty, is. One night I believe. That the, term is a, reasonable. Reasonable, degree of scientific certainty, which. Was brought up yesterday and I. Believe somebody even said that it's a it's. Kind of an on point, it doesn't really mean anything, we. We don't use the, that term, if. The term is asked, of us in court by. State's attorney or a defense attorney. We. Explain that that term really doesn't have a meaning to it that, there's. No way to explain what. A sign of reasonable degree of scientific certainty, is, I believe. The DOJ, actually came out with something explaining, that that term. Wasn't. Being used. Practical. Impossibility is. For. Us what we, explain, that practical possibility, means at least four firearms examination, is, that. And. And, this is the and a few does have a definition, for it it, basically means that it's. Phrase that can't be expressed in mathematical terms. It. Describes, an event that has an extremely, small probability. Of occurring. In theory. But. Which empirical, testing and experience, has shown will. Not occur. And. That's, based on, excuse. Me that's. Based on extensive empirical. Research and. Validation. Validation. Studies. The, cumulative results, of training, and casework examinations.
That. Either have been performed, peer-reviewed, or published, in peer, review forensic journals, the. Reason. I explained. That explain, it as practical, impossibility because. It is brought up in court. You. Can't say 100%, of possibility, because the instant, you do that and you. Get asked so every, gun that's ever been manufactured, has been compared to each other that's. Where the term practical, comes from that, no obviously. Every gun has not ever been compared not, every guns ever even been looked at under, a microscope to look at the marks so, practical impossibility just. Explains that based. On our research, and the the. Testing, and the casework, that's happened over the years. The. Marks, identified, or any particular case. Will. Be found, will. Be found that produced marks exhibiting, sufficient, agreement of identification. What. That means is these. Marks, based. On all the testing, that's been done in all the cases, that have been examined examined. Are. Unique. To a particular firearm. And. It's. Practically, impossible for, them to have been made by a different. Firearm oh. No. I was, here for part of yesterday I got in late. Yeah. It. Can happen quick. But. My question has to do with that. You say, on. The, 3d. Topography, systems, and I know that you're not a scientist, at here someone who has experienced, the deal gonna drink, barbecue. Systems. Bingo. I've heard people raise your question well. Isn't isn't this kind. Of technology, something. That might might. Be but using facial recognition. You. Know as a basic, foundation to. Do, the examination of the images, that's one question. I've. Never heard it put that way but. I guess based. On what the, two are together there. There is a similarity, between that, you're absolutely right that that is something that and, again. It, could, but. My. Understanding is that there there is testing. That has taken place as I said I know there are systems, 3d topography systems, that are have, been tested, I have, been validated, and. Are being used in some some, crime labs again I mentioned, FBI because I and I could be wrong about that but I believe I read that the FBI is actually. Using in. Conjunction. With firearms, examiner's, a 3d. Typography, system. Like, I said there is one out that we were looking. To purchase has. Not happened yet because we didn't have the money so so, yes there definitely has been testing and validation that's taken place or. Or I will believe it wouldn't be being used you know by, anybody, specifically. For. The system. I. Believe. It was won. Over. 17. By, each other we're not your, stepdaughters. Several. Farmers and, they do talk about certainty. But, I reckon if you'd agree with their depiction, they, say, partnership. We in, everyday, life. Apprentice. There's, a practical certainty. That work on earth will start, in. The morning. I can't. Speak as. Far, into that what FD, is saying in regards to that response, and. Your explanation. No. No I'm not tell me what you're reading to me what, you're reading to me I. Don't. Know how. They. Got to to, having that answer, or their, their, explanation. Of what you just read, being. A practical, certainty, and practical impossibility, i. I. Guess, as, it says you know, practical. Certainty, happens every day in life. Practical. Possibility, which. Is synonymous, I, guess. It's. Just explained. Through all the researching, and the cases, that have been done that that, there, haven't been incidences.
Where Two. Different in. This case guns, left. The same marks, through all the years of study and research in, casework. But. Again I guess they. Have to keep it as practical, impossibility. Due. To like I said, not. Every not every piece of evidence has ever been compared to each other especially. To every gun fired or, manufactured. Over however, many years it's taken place. That. Possibility. Puts. A. Statistical. Loss on. Subjective. Experience. Based occupation, or why not just how to herself. Based. On the. Patterns I've seen in my work why, put, it in this. Yes. I do to your first part about the concerns about it which, is why you. Know I would I would suggest I, would think that all of the resources, going into putting a quantifiable. Number on it. When. I'm asked, I understand, if I if I'm in court I do explain, that for me it is all. The casework that I have seen over the years I can't, speak to anybody else's case working what they've looked at when I've never looked at it so. I am specifically. Speaking, for me to the case work that I've done the Marcus that I've seen all the evidence that I've looked at but. Yes it is it. Is. Questioned. A lot and line, like you said it. Would be a. Definite. Move forward, to be able to quantify it and put a number to it because, yes and in saying that it does, in some ways lead, to you're saying some type of statistic. But what is the statistic, and. That's. What's being worked on so yes I agree with you, yes. Yes. Absolutely one. Of the big tests that we do or I guess it's a test in, the training is it's the Ruger ten barrel test which is consecutively, manufactured. Barrels, which, in, February, we're going to get, as. Close to. Markings. Being the same that. Would be one of the tests that definitely, explains. How, they're different and why they're different that. Test is not an easy test, it. Takes some time but it is, at the end of the day these ten consecutively. Rifle barrels are, distinguishable. From each other. Once. You know, how to do it and know what you're looking for so yes it absolutely goes towards, helping, to show what we're saying I know. We have more questions in the audience but we need to give Jason his spare time as well so we'll. See if we have more time for questions at the end of the session but, we would like to move to Jason have, him give his presentation. There. We go. Okay. So we're going to jump, into this what, one, of the things I have to kind of resent on some new technology. That's. Coming out and healthy. In forensic science, specifically. This. Particular piece, of equipment we're going to talk about today is. Pertaining. To firearms, but also crossing. Into the late print, side. Of things as well so, I want to begin with with just a quick little. Newscast. So Buster for the headquarters is over in the UK, and. This, was run, by the BBC, about. A year and a half ago when. They heard about this technology, coming out so hopefully the sound will work. Hopefully. It will play. If. Not we're gonna skip it. I. Just. Did some dumb also not sure why it's not. Back. Try, one more time the powers come on. Okay. So, pretty much what they said in there just, kind of talked about some of this new technology, as. They, heard about it and, and the ability to kind of get fingerprints, where we couldn't I developed. Fingerprints, before. Furthering, forensic, science and so we'll talk a little bit about that but, the system the word call, your cover it's. A novel one stage chemical, fuming technique, for. The development of finger marks on metal surfaces, and, for. Traditionally.
Metallic. Surfaces, or metal surfaces are a difficult. Substrate. To recover fingerprints. From, and. So, in, this particular case when we're talking metals, and, dealing with major. Crimes, the. Crime scene investigators are responding to and law enforcement is responding to we're. Referring to bullets, and cartridge casings, here, Knights, metal. Blades and. Then metals that have been washed or clean that may be items that have been growing rivers, and lakes and. Situations. Like that and then, also metals, that have been subjected to heat so are some scenes. Bodies. And. Then also. Spent shell casings, where. The heat from the tasting. Actually being fired the, heat that's generated from, the gun and that being fire, can. Can really, wreak. Havoc if you will on the late prints, that, we left behind or the positive on that item, originally. So. Recover, is actually, been this is a. Combined. Effort to. Kind of create this wasn't I just foster, everybody, this is a good idea but a lot of people have put time and effort into. This research, and. Into this. This process, to. Show. That it works and then to development and. So the initial discovery, oops the initial discovery actually happened a month ago University, over. In the UK by. Dr. Roberto King he was actually working on his PhD under. The direction of dr. Paul Kelly here at Loughborough when. When, method, was discovered, I will talk a little bit about that here in just a second, and then D STL got involved that's the defense sciences, and Technology, Laboratory. Over. In the over in the UK they are kind of a research and development arm, of the Ministry of Defense. Further. Advice and guidance was given by, cast the Center for Applied Sciences. And Technology, or. Referred, to oftentimes, as the home office, when. It comes to latent prints the whole office, has put together a, fingermark, virtualization. Manual there's. Really used around the world when it comes to the different chemical processes. For. The development, of lead fingerprints. On on items, and. Then foster in Freeman for. The refinement. And actually commercialization. Of the, product itself. So. We'll talk a little bit about how this process works, there's. A precursor, chemical, that's going to be used and then you have your development, chamber, I've got set the chamber up here for us to. Look at but the the chemical that we're using it's a black crystalline, inorganic, powder it's, a gonna undergo a phase change, to. Generating, reactive gas. And. Then the finger marks will, be developing in the polymerization, mechanism. This. Is something, for. Those of you they're super good processing. Super glue processing, develops latent prints based on the polymerization, mechanism so. This is very much working, similar. To the, same way super glue works in the sense you're heating up a chemical and the fingerprints are going to be the polymerization, mechanism. The. Chamber itself it's. Actually done at a very mild vacuum, but. It's it's got an adaptable, glass. Chamber with a 360-degree, visibility, and kind of a black chamber up there that allows the. Person. To do the chemical process to actually examine the elements as it's developing, and. See the development processes attacking, the. System itself has undergone, some smart environmental management we. As, a company so I was around the world we. Have a, climate. Chamber there, in our our headquarters there so we you, know make, sure this is going to work in, the Hot Desert, Sun as. Well as in the frozen. Tundra of. The world and everywhere between getting, the same results. Where wherever ghost it's. At the bottom eight of the process. Do. You load the chamber in and kind, of push button start to the system and, it runs and, does its thing there's. A nice eminence rack in there that you can use to fill. The chamber of all different, types of elements that you may be processing. And. It does have a nice excuse. Me nice and to to the graphic graphical. Touch panel interface so you can see the little 7 inch display, straight on there and, just kind of a touch button and. When we kind of talk about the process on this going back also to the smart environmental, management when. You first start the chamber actually goes through a series of tests making, sure that all the equipment to the site isn't working, properly if, it's not this, is not going to run. So. The way it kind of works is again you have your chamber here you would suspend your notes in there or put your elements in there, whether.
It Be kind of on the rack the. Casings, have sitting on a post where. You can clamp. Things in there but. You want as, much of the surface exposed, as. As possible. Your. Chemical, is placed at the bottom of the chamber where, there's a heating States below that the. Air and the moisture is backing down with the chamber once. All the air is out the. Heating. Stage has been turned. On heat, is applied to the chemical, which. Creates this vapor that goes out and your finger marks will, be developed on the item and. So, this. New model that we have here it's about what they are processing, time so, it's very very quick when this first came out they were looking at about 24, hours to. Get the development so, we really were playing that now very. Getting results back very very quickly like. I mentioned it's a completely not native process, and, the other thing that we do with all the chemical actually comes pre-weighed so. Lives you, should get the same results. Every single time it comes in a little glass vial you, pop a clock set, it down in there and, when you're done. Put, the cap back on you can dispose of that and. The next one you do you put it a new batch, of chemical, in there it, also does have an adjustable chamber capacity, the one we have on their right house of D by a glass cylinder it does have the ability to go to a 16 by, 8 inch plus one or if you've got a larger piece of evidence being processed. Recover. It's, fairly new, this. Has actually just been introduced, here, or, well around the world with. Within. The last several months in, fact this model came out the. American Academy of Forensic Sciences, conference this year in Baltimore that. Was held in February. But. It's actually over ten years in the maybe this. Process has been happening and they've been working on it so, like I mentioned it was it was dr.. Roberto King who, discovered, it at Loughborough University under, the direction of dr. Paul Kelly and. He actually was just a middle ganic chemist had nothing to do with fingerprints, for forensic science and. The process, he was working on and their chemicals are he was playing with he noticed that he was actually developing finger marks on items, he.
Kind Of published a couple of things on this in. 2008. 2009. Several. Papers that were published and. That's, when then. They. Slot the assistance, of D STL and cast who. Came on to provide a very, strong support for the development of the recover system itself. And. It was about this time in, 2010. The. The, project was actually marked as classified by. The UK, government, dr.. King was was encouraged. To continue to work on this again. Working with D, STL and Cass botanist. But. Again it was it was classified by the by the UK government now. Obviously we don't know why it was classified when a guy reckons it was classified. However. In that news video clip there's. A representative from, D STL, who talks about it and he says this technology. Is. Being utilized to save lives of. Both. The UK's forces and civilians, and. We've talked the people who've worked in labs over, dealing. With the war in Afghanistan, instead of oh yeah something. Very similar to that type. Thing so the. Speculation. Is, the UK government attacked classified, it because. They didn't want the bomb makers knowing that. We were in into developing a mark sunblocks otherwise. These people would, change. The way that they were manufacturing. These things several. People that work, over there in the UK. Task. Office in the STL is. To work for the cake forces they. Would say that you know there was an IEE fragment, in the pond technicians, would come out and. Make safe Devon Optima, crowd would gather and in those crowd job and have bomb makers so they would watch what the bomb, technician, was doing so, that the next time they created a long they go all the last time he'd probably business, mr. ebony had say we're, gonna throw a booby trap in there so the next time he sees ninety practicals, to do that again it goes to boom and so, again, they kind of like keep people out of it if they want to keep this I think a little bit more time seekers so that this information was, not getting out to people. And. Then in 2017. Foster, freedom by the exclusive, right to commercialize. This and manufacturer, Roberto keen actually began working for posture agreement in, about 2011, so, it was kind of a good match made in heaven. Would. Faust recruitment be over there in the UK and. Being well, known as a games a company that manufactures. And build quality forensic, Equinox, so. Again this is the system, that we're looking at, they. Said. They can prove the precursor, chemical, they've made it state and. Safe, to use and then simple to use safe to handle we've. Increased the processing, times or the expedited, processing times like I said down to under one hour now, and. We've, also worked on the. Optimize. Some some image, methods. For this as well honestly. Once you develop a late, print say on spent shell casing, that, we, made a rounded surface that's difficult to photograph so. We worked on ways to, photograph. Those to, make it easier for the lane forensic. Scientists, working with that type of evidence. Anyway. It's except some, research has been done on their shows that this is an extremely effective, method, and. It's really just having a turnkey, solution 11. Laps just kind of put it in there on the end of the process this type of evidence. So. Again there's your development, chamber up top here it's, got a motorized, slip that's going to go over the now again. Making. Room for that 16 inch cylinder if you need it down, here you can see the little volcano that's exit where you're counting goes and. Then your touch panel interface and. So, it makes, it pretty. User. Friendly and, peace of easement yes ma'am. Right. Right. Now that is actually we're, not releasing that right now we, do, give the MSDS, sheets to there, of course when they buy it but. It is a is like purslane an organic powder as. The. Chemical. We're. Doing we're doing some further research on that right now we did, all. Allege that real quickly and then kind of continued the presentation, so, back in 2000. And. About. 10 years ago, they. Did some testing. On that they put some blood droplets on a piece of glass round. Glass through here they got full profiles. On all those drops of blood even after processing little drops of blood they didn't touch DNA, and.
I'm. Trying to think out of things. Up, 16. Samples they got. 9. Profiles. I, just. Touched DNA after the processing, now. When we say that again we kind of keep in mind that was over. 10 years ago we really, improved the chemical since then as. Well as DNA has developed. Substantially. In. The last 10 years what they can do so we're. Gonna do some continued, research. On that but, we believe that if we were to do that now with the results of XP much higher on the touch DNA. We've also you. Know I've traveled around the different laboratories, around. The country who, have actually been doing experiments, without in validations, of that work they. Process. For. DNA first and then we put it in here to see if that affects the development, of the food print but. Then we also. They. Swap for DNA or do their DNA testing then we put in here to kind of see if we're getting that and. They have those results and a lot of them will be publishing those as well. Alright. So again we kind of talked about how it works I'll quickly talk about why it works because. This is kind of the fun part about it so it, will work via the conventional, method by that I mean there, is great fingerprint, residue. Fingerprint. Residue on, the, item itself alright and there's a lot of processes, that currently, develop. Fingermarks. Based, on this technology in, fact every process. To develop your prints is based on this this. The fingerprint. Residue was physically there whether it's powdered whether, it's superglue, whether. It's a chemical, like tin hydrant or in a diner DFO reacting. With some constituent. Of the late figure progress to itself to develop that vitamin and. So if there is fingerprint residue on line recover. Will develop, that so, example, here here's, your sheet of metal these, white line to represent fingerprint. Residue there, and, here's the developed chemical coming down building. Up on that residue, polymerized, on that and the melody and the thea prints that we can see it in practical, application, this is what it looks like here's your piece of brass metal it's. Been touched with finger marks placed, in the chamber and you can see the development, of the theater marks from, the recovered chemical itself. What. Makes recovery, unique and, one of the reasons why. People. Are getting very excited, about this technology is, the fact that it. Also develops based, on a, unique. Mechanism. And, by, that I mean the latent residue. Does not need, to be physically, present to, develop, now. What I'm talking about this we are talking about only, bare, metal and the, reason, why it works is we. Are now we're going to rely on the presence of a corrosion, scene within, a minute and. It's going to develop those finger marks based on the difference in surface energy of, the metal itself so, bare, metal finger. Marks come in contact with this the longer they sit on that piece of metal it begins to corrode that metal so if the late rust boot is wiped, away burned. Away a bullet, shot from a gun under that late recipe was obliterated there's. Still that corrosion, on the metal and that's, what recover, is going to target and develop. So, giving an example here here's our police piece, of metal our finger marks are placed on there after, approximately 30, minutes, you. See corrosion. On a very molecular, level on that Bell itself, so, then when that residue. Is wiped away washed, away clean. Obliterated. That. Corrosion is still there so now when we apply the. Chemical. Fume to it it's, still going to go down there and develop, based, on again that difference, in surface energy that's where it wants to polymerize, that's words wants to build up and. This is what we see so again here's our plate being, wiped down, you. Can see the finger marks on there before so. With the towel that's the moisture, we wipe away those finger marks hang. It in the chamber and this, is what we're developing a matter, yes ma'am does, it have to be a reactive, I don't know like. Gold. Does not react, as if we're gonna hold or, does it only work on something that has. More ability to react, as, long as the date as long as it's a bare metal it, will work now. Different metals are going to react a little bit differently so for instance and. Here the United States why we're so excited is again spent. Shell casings I. Say. The. Recovery. Rate of latent fingerprints, from spent, shell casings, is well, below, 1%. In. Fact there are many labs around the country that have quit process, T spent. Shell casings because, the recovery rate is so low. The. Majority, of cartridge. Casings, and corrective are honest farms Amana are gonna baby brass. And, copper. Base. Metal, and then also, aluminum, and. Steel type valves so as long as it's a bare metal we're. We're, going to build on that now the aluminum of the still is going to take a little bit longer time to begin to corrode and.
Also. A little bit longer time to process, so. I'm not getting into the toe because I'll have about 15 minutes but, we actually you're, going to process silver, colored metals you, use the same chamber who are actually gonna use a little, bit more chemical, and across this time is going to be a little bit longer than your Center cover but the majority of corporate or casings. Are kind of brass copper colored paint, seeds and that's what we're seeing and, again a comment on a basement presentation, if I want to use heat to obliterate evidence. Common cold kinda see what. Kind of temperatures, what I actually have to do to get there well. Just. Obliterate the. Signature. That comes out with purple. Yeah. I don't know exactly. Yeah. And. So they don't we build a based on that it's, too if there's other factors as well as far as you know some of the gas is coming back and helping those white loss some of that risk as well and. Some other factors, as well I don't know the exact temperature that will actually remove. Fingerprint. Residue but. I think it would also depend on the type services, on and. Then other partner conditions, as well I, assume. That. Posted. Agreement, are. Claiming some, kind of trade secret, protection for. Black, man are, there other parts process. Boston. Green to. Be played. Tracy. Actually. The whole bowl chamber itself is as. Far as the exact temperature for heating the chemical of two, things. Like that yeah it's and because. Of that she's, fostering Freeman. Undertaking. Any kind of process. We. Get. Into the validations, can I answer a question when I get to the validation sir, we've got about that then okay, fine. That's okay I'm gonna fly through this so if you just sum up some other examples, here again. Metals would have been washed here's. Our imaging system over here we reason to kind of do, that we're using coaxial, lighting, sometimes. Just diffuse lighting and things like that good. Results, but. Here's the big lip so here's a here's a special, casing, again, that's, what you see before development, and. After development you can now see the roof detail that was developed, on that and. Again of these marks we placed on the cartridge, casing, prior to being fired not fire them and picked up in country loaded. In the magazine, fired, from the gun and, then if it does we, have this part. Of our dhimmitude system, we call our cylindrical surface on wrapper and in a sense what it does is it takes a three-dimensional, item and it gives you a two-dimensional, image so you can see the casing behind it weave in a sense unstitch, that, and. Piece, together. Small. Big. Wayne images, as that, kind of rotates to. Give you then this 3-dimensional image which, we can then enhance in our software and get good results for forensic. Scientists to look at again. Another example here special. Casings, on or I mean prints on the spent shell casing, and. Again under, the cylindrical surface unwrapped, were being able to wrap that to get a nice 2-dimensional, image for your forensic. Scientists, to look at and examine. Get. Enhanced in the software, okay. Again another another, study there or another example there, here's. Some AED fragments, that developed some lake marks on there as. Well now one of the things in this I think is will answer your questions, this, has actually been independently. Evaluated, by task. UK Home Office they get about a two-year validation, study of this. And, they have submitted a paper that's for, peer review. From. My understanding on this but they're actually waiting, for one last person to kind of sign off on this and it's what we published so, we anticipate hopefully. That being published within the next several months that's. Going to be huge when it comes to recover. On this but one of the things that they kind of said. Through their validation, study in this article it's going to be published as it recover has, been proven to consistently, outperform, existing, techniques on. A wide range of evidence types. For. The development of fingerprints, the, other thing too is phosphor improvement continues to do ongoing. Testing to explore the limits of her cover I, can.
Quickly Show you some of these these, are different, fingerprints, on brass plates this. Was inundated bleach, the prints were aged on their form out of a network and, then submerged, in the diluted leaves for seven days and then. Process, with recover using. Coaxial illumination and, that's we're able to develop, salt. Water again. 8 to the 1 hours submerge for seven days coaxial, illumination, soaked. In vinegar print. Stage for 24 hours submerge for seven days coaxial. Illumination this. Is your stainless steel, diluted. Bleach again an h2 about an hour seven. Days this is using coax lighting this. Was in salt water gauge for 24 hours or seven days using white light and again vinegar nature and our summer through seven days using. White light and, you can see the results, that we're getting on these items, fantastic. Again, so there's these other processes, that are out there are. Gonna, be able to get you these type results. Not. Yet because we just started selling the system. But. I do know that it's it's there's, several. People around the world that purchased these and. They're. They're, pretty happy with it and as, far as it goes, I've talked to several a4 examiner's the, the process, itself is pretty. Pretty. Simple as far as we, we. Know that the chemical going up is developing. It so we know it's, it's working no, different than super. Glue and some of these other processes, for. Developing finger marks generally. Where you create. Your issues with late print examination, and Court is more on the examination. Side, of things rather. Than kind of the development side of things and you're not. Using. I'm, going to change your. Phrasing. Of it that. You see just as if this was essentially. What. I'm saying yeah every lap mostly, it should be doing a validation, on in, addition to reading the. Validation, absolutely, as with any piece of evidence or any piece of equipment it goes into a lap all the equipment should be validated, by, that particular agency, before. Being put into use for an actual casework. What's. The residues on there then that residues, going to get in fact wrote down in there I mean there's different constituents. Of the sweat we have salts give amino acids, in there we have oils all, of that is going to begin to corrode and again a lot of that is also going to be donor dependent, right. We know from from doing chemical processes, with other types of chemicals, that. Sometimes, you just have a poured milk they, just don't swell and they're not sweat a lot but leave behind residue, you're not going to develop a mark then, to get people like me that sweat like a you. Know a racehorse and, iTouch diamond holy hell I'm a horrible girl is my, colleague, responds right so I get a lot of that to be builder dependent, we're gonna go over here then become human part over here. Like Arizona drive around we, even have to add waiter to our price and I see any Chamber person, safe borders and he found that baptism. Not. Really because we're gonna be, done in the back, on. That particular one and, they've given us some of that is point to effect obviously the