Block O2O Blockchain Summit - Panel: Interoperability and the Next Wave of Blockchain
First, up I'd like to welcome our. Moderator. For this section, dr., Hans Lombardo, we're loaded with doctors of this event today dr., Hans Lombardo, he is a CMO, and a director, at block pass IDN out of Vietnam and like that is like the great untapped, source. Of blockchain programmers, is what I keep hearing from people that are there I've, known Hans I believe, probably 96. 97, we rode in and out of the dot-com boom, together I know we look like we're in our mid 20s but we're a little bit older than that and, he still got the passion he still got the drive, he's, founded his own company has been a leading light and huh and in technology in this part of the world as long as I've known him and as you just heard that's for some time so moderator. Here he comes dr., hunts Lombardo, Hans come take your chair, here. We go ladies and gentlemen make a little bit of noise for our boy Hans. There. We go good to see you man all right take a seat okay, so we're gonna bring up the rest of the stage but first up it's gonna be the man who's gonna kick off the introduction, David Alan Cohen, he is the founder of D central it's, missing, a few letters that you would expect but it's very cool you can see it right there it is a cybersecurity blockchain. Company but he has been in this for a long time he was one of the one of the one of the early maybe, even started founding members of the iota, foundation. Okay for all that you know this is a blockchain crew I don't have to explain IATA - you guys know what it's all about he's an advisor right now - Hedera hash graphed all this on top of running his own company. He's gonna sit down but then he's gonna stand up and give us a little timid intro to the panel here it comes David, Allan, Coe in. David, come on up the. Man from D Central all right we. Got two more coming up here daughter dr. Marta, Pia Casca she, is the director of ecosystems. For, Hyper. Ledger oh she's coming right up not even gonna way come have a seat sit there sit there it's your choice I'm gonna slide over here so I'm not standing in front of director. Of ecosystems, for, Hyper, ledger within. Of course the Linux Foundation you're Julian Gordon this morning he's based here, he's running Asia but this is the director, of ecosystem, for Europe, so she's got a huge job, again, another, doctor. This is like a techie techie you, know with, a great pedigree from the best polish and German universities. Is that right yes so like a real scientist, scientist and we're very happy to have her, today and we got one more we're gonna bring up here where did he go is Francis Juan Francis. From bucket technologies. And right, now living in Arkansas, is that right so he's all the way out of America they've got a really interesting technology, where, they are going to get rid of change you know people say we're gonna get rid of money well first you got to get rid of coins this guy's gonna do it through bucket technologies, but don't worry the coins go away but you still got the money in your pocket because. The blockchain there. It is all right so Hans you're in charge but David you're gonna launch into a little bit of a talks you want to do it standing or sitting here in standing, standing okay I will come over here and you can you can own this space for, ten minutes while you kick us off so that's how it sound like a plan you know that's, a plan alright ladies and gentlemen I'm turning it over I.
Think. We have a presentation, queued up here all right. Let's hit, the button for them, okay. I'm gonna tell you guys a little bit about what I know there's a lot of experts here on the panel actually know a lot about interoperability, and. I want to give you some perspective some, of this some of its true some of it's actually made up but. There's. A place. In Utah, it's. Called the Tower of Babel and. Andrea. Was talking about the Tower of Babel about this communication so this is uh was, written on that the, first actual. Block of the blockchain, in. 2008. In the tower of the blockchain Babel, account in. Block genesis 1.1. It is said that every, blockchain, on earth spoke, the same language but, this is inconsistent. With the biblical description, of the post bitcoin. Ik world described, in genesis one point to. Where. It is said that the descendants, of bitcoin aetherium, and hundreds, of other coins gave, rise to different nations, each with their own language, this is the problem we got hundreds, of altcoins. Hundreds, of coins, the. Interoperability issue, is, actually. Very premature, but it's a discussion, that everybody wants to talk about and i, have to give some perspective on what i've been doing for the past thirty years which is in the smart grid so the smart grid is one of the world's, most, complex. Machines. In the world it's very it's, a real time machine where you've got electricity. Flowing, dynamically. All the time it does not stop, and if it turns off it's a problem, whole blockchain will go down in. This case we're. Talking a hundred years of evolution, of a, very very sophisticated system. And you've got literally, hundreds, if not thousands, of standards, and different things connecting, to the electric. Grid like solar panels, and now electric vehicles, and you got micro grids and super grids and all these different things and, this. Is to set the stage for kind of like what. Already is and, where. We kind of need to go and looking at how long this, is a taken, to evolve and going back to things like the. Internet so. Some. Of you guys have heard of fad protocols, and din protocols, not my idea there's some people in these space that have kind of been talking about this where the.
Basic, Notion is the the Internet to. Me I don't agree with it but the internet was, built on these thin protocols, like TCP IP, and HTTP. And then, the application, layers where the fat layers where all the value was transferred, so things like Twitter and Google and Facebook, but. In reality in 35, years ago is when tcp/ip. Was invented. With ARPANET, so. This is 1983. It took that long for these, protocols to get to the point where we could have things like. Google and Facebook and, so we're in the same boat with blockchain, you can't just have instantaneous. Gratification here. So, the fad protocol, layer, I love, this this particular thing because it's basically a picture of a railroad track and the. Quote is and apparently underutilized. But beautiful fad protocol, because. You know the idea is once, you have a railroad track that standard, you can put it any kind of you, can go anywhere in the world on a railway with the same same, railway. So, it's a beautiful concept talk. A little bit about that. But. The the, current situation, is I there's, a lot of really great companies, including, people on the panel that are working on this including hans, working, on self, sovereign identity, and hyper ledger of course and there's. These different approaches, to doing like kind, of thin layer lightweight. Application. Level integrations, of things. Like chain to chain relays, and looking. At side chains and looking at cross. Cross. Chain atomic, swaps and doing things like you know moving, into where we can you decentralized, exchanges, which is really great work I think it's really important, and I'm. Not picking, any winners here there's a lot of people working on this of course you've got the, the. Foundation's. You've got things like cosmos, but everybody's, heard about in polka dot hash. Graph just announced that they're actually going to be able to run a theory of solidity, contracts, on top of hash graphs what that's an interesting, kind of approach to interoperability. And, then you got smart mesh that's doing things like they're doing off chain mesh. Networks, and where there's no internet connection at all so you've got all these different ecosystems. Moving around. And. The. Sort. Of thoughts on a couple. Just a couple more slides here we'll get into the interesting. Debate discussion, I guess, my. Thoughts on interoperability is, that I think personally. I think that it's a little bit too early to be talking about interoperability, because, we. Really don't have anything really working, that well and solid yet to even be talking about interoperating. Yet, however, the, constitute. The multiple, elephants, in the room to me are. A security, of things in people getting, into things like self sovereign identity, and and device identity, the. Scalability, issue you've seen a lot of people doing proof of work and now the everybody's. Talking about aetherium, Kaspar and and, these, different methods of doing proof of stake as we just just heard of proof of it proof of X. To. Reduce some. Of the scalability, issues with if you've got huge, amounts of energy and enough to charge a Tesla just to do one transaction, in. The business that I came from it doesn't work you can't go to people and tell them that you're going to use that much energy just to do a single transaction, to, transfer, data on the, electric grid so. The, bandwidth issues the data storage issues are being resolved. But they're not necessarily fixed. And it's going to take a long time the. Version, control system, is that who has the version, I mean if you talk about sophisticated. Enterprises. That have I, full-time, 24/7, IT people, you, can see that they can maybe keep track of this but the average person, I just, bought another ledger, ledger nan OS and as soon as I plugged it in it had to go and I had to integrate, and get a new piece of firmware, but, then I had to make all these decisions. Which version of a theorem it was which, version a bitch coin it. Over. Time as you get more and more of these protocols coming, in before things are even working how do you keep track of this stuff so there's all kinds of issues around that the.
Code Itself is it trusted, I mean do you actually someone, program this code so you're assuming. You. Know there's there's been I won't, mention names but there's been particularly, at. Have looked at trying to roll their own crypto, and we've. Seen kind of the the repercussions. Of that you know really know what if you're trusting, something, that's, written in the code you're assuming that it's, gonna work perfectly, and we don't really know that yet, so. Again the governance, issue has been really, important, standards. We don't even talk with anyone have any standards, I mean we're talking about all these independent companies, that are talking about we're on the fourth fourth. Generation, of blockchain, I don't know what they're talking about I mean, I don't think we're on 4th generation, yeah it's only been three years since aetherium after, Bitcoin. And, then the interoperability, issue I think is really, important, it's really relevant, it's gonna happen but. We just have to keep in mind be humble the fact that this is going to take some time so, what. We're working on. Excuse. Me. Guys. Like my trigger-happy here, I. Will. Close with we're, working if the central working on kind of a fad protocol, because we fundamentally, the the underlying, layer of end. Devices. I'm not talking about when, you're talking about chained a chain or when you have a transaction, on the blockchain I'm saying what about the actual computing. Devices in, the, internet of everything where, things are, connecting, to people and, machines. Autonomous. Things. Like robots, coming online. There's. Something, like the order of 200 billion plus, sensor. Enabled objects that are going to be connected, to the internet so those have to be secured themselves before, we even talk about the. Endpoints, so we're, working on ten, layers of, some of its patented, really, sophisticated. Technology, to make that endpoint as secure, as possible, and then, when the points actually communicate. Back and forth between each other on the transport, we're. Looking at securing, that on top. Of that then you could sit, microtransactions. And do transfer, of value so we're we're going to be integrating with with. Hyper, ledger with, hash graph with other advanced, technologies to, actually make the, machine economy, happen so that's, kind of my my, take on it but that sets the stage for, this. Discussion, and hopefully. We'll have some really good questions from Hans okay. I'll try my best I think, some, really good points there I think. We kind of like need, to like go back to what interoperability, is and, I think the important more part of that is operability. And. This. But technology. Is as we've, already noted. This technology, is not, mature, yet so. It's not the scalability. Is still not there yet so what. Is key to operability. Is scalability, that's. A really important issue. The, other question. This elite lead-in to my question is. You. Know we're talking about interoperability. Between what. Different. Blockchains. Public. And private blockchains. Blockchains. And traditional. Systems. So. We need to assess that those. Three issues, and also, whether. Interoperability. Is desirable. Is it desirable, from. One whose perspective, from the user perspective from, the enterprise perspective, who, wants interoperability, remember. Who wants decentralization. What. Is the central asian decentralisation. A goal or distribution. Ago so. First, off i like marta. To. Sort of address. Those issues thank. You, yeah. I think this, is a really good point first of all what is interoperability. Is. It. Exchanging. Information between Ledger's. Because. Today. We are constantly. From. An enterprise point, of view living.
Quite. Often in the world where, enterprises. Are trying to say well I'll implement. My stuff on a ledger. And then some other Enterprise will, implement. Their stuff on a ledger and then we need an API, that communicates, between the Ledger's right and we. Need to enjoy our ability, well, that's not a blockchain solution. We, need to get comfortable with. A. Solution. Where we are all on, one ledger. For. A certain, use case and then, we don't need that interoperability I, think that we. Still, kind. Of live in a world where we are thinking the. Centralized. Database. Rather than this distributed. Ledger and. This is a big. Problem when it comes to enterprises, of course, we won't have one ledger, to rule them all there are different, Ledger's for. Different, use cases but. There. Is a difference, between decentralized. Database, and the distributed, ledger. Okay. Francis. I mean you're approaching, it buckets, is, solving. The issue of coins and a POS level, right so. How. Does that look, to you how would how would you answer that I, think. I would, probably take. A step back. Mine, would be more, from a historical, observation, standpoint, and I would say that. There's. A couple assumptions that I'm making here and the. Critical. Assumption, is that there's a wildly. Sophisticated. And complex fabric, that. Encompasses. Pretty much everything David put together so. I'm assuming all of that is achievable right. And. What, I think interoperability. Means. Is, context. Right so, right. Now you, know the easiest example, we have our markets, right and there's some weird. Fanatical. Belief that markets are actually efficient, mathematically. Empirically. Quite. The opposite right so you, and I may come to a great deal on on. A bargain for a car but neither, of us ever price in pollution. Congestion, the. Fact that every car added to the road increases. Oil and gas and everything like that and that's because most of these mechanisms. Our inward. Focused, and run by. Self-interest. And people, and they don't have the context, for, doesn't have context, into all of the things that all of their competitors are doing around the world so, if we're trying to solve the tragedy, of the Commons and. Stay. On this planet that you know we, have breathable, air and drinkable, water on. For. All of these tokens, chains. To have context, as to what, each, other are doing is. Really the only path forward for us to build efficient, systems. Okay. So. Context. For you is very important and I think, that's interesting, because, I was thinking also industry. Verticals. So. You might want to have a ledger. For an industry particularly in this industry vertical, and a, lot, of people sort of that's where consortiums, come in what consortiums, form creative, industry. Vertical but whether, that it's, necessary, to have interoperability, between, that, chain and other chains is the question I, think. That we, need. Modularity. Between, chains right so, more than api's, between, chains we want the change to be modular. So that we, can maybe exchange. Consensus. Mechanisms, that we are trying to do within, hyper ledger right we have five different frameworks, now, that. Are different. They are not competitive, in any way they are.
Compatible. In many ways and hyper. Ledger fabric, and hyper ledger Sawtooth order to stay, for examples, where people get confused why, do we have two very similar frameworks. Well they are not similar they are different. In many ways. But. They have different consensus, mechanisms, and we have also hyper let you borrow that you you mentioned, and. They. Have now. You can run solidity, smart contracts, on both hyper ledger Psaltis and hyper ledger, borrow. Because, we believe that that, consensus. Mechanism, can be plugged into different, different. Frameworks, because, the consensus, of what, really, matters okay. So. I'll give me a sort of case study it's quite good because the feel of a plug just, block pass block, pass were in, theory am right now we're want, to be blockchain agnostic, so we want to do in neo they want to do a hyper ledger where, a these, basically. A identity. Verification platform. That, uses a protocol. Called di D which, is w3c. So, in, that, sense it could be at the top level ba, player with, smart contracts that can different. Smart contracts can work on different Ledger's right with our SK, solidity. Can work on Bitcoin, so. David. So is it possible to build interoperability, through the DAP level of the stack. Between. Between. Applications, in, the sense. It's. A good, question. What. I was thinking about is that I go, back to that kind of the if you have a really good use case for interoperability. Like the railway. Or if you look at like solar. All, solar. Inverters. In the world work, on like a I. Triple E standard. Where. If it's gonna connect to the grid they, all have to use the same standard universally, and that's a great app but, it's it's really only it's got a vertical in a certain. Area so, the idea of having different. Industries, like financial industry. And you, know you getting into the Internet of Things and all these different things I think there's gonna be some segregation. And some vertical ization that no matter what you do but if you look at like what you're working on the the, identity, where, you're talking about people, that's. Kind of more of a horizontal you, could see that that's a protocol, that you want for everybody because no matter what you're, still you still want to have an identity as a person and so. I think that's easier, to make that kind. Of leap whereas, if you get into say. Medical devices, versus. A smart. Grid devices, it's. Very hard to think that those industries, are gonna are gonna collaborate, and you know, even like the example. Of the smart grid the, lot of those protocols are never going to talk to each other just just. Based on the security issues so, you identity. Protocol for devices. But it'd be verticalized, yeah. More, where human identity, and maybe enterprise LAN identity, could. Like be ported, across like. Hyper ledger or fabric, and, in cases of shipping and maybe in for, an insurance industry, at, the same time because he might be sure Dan Enterprise might be insured to ship something right, yeah, apply, chains get interesting, because you've got you got you got things products. Traversing. All these different geographies, and all these different places and, so just going in and out of these different industries and that's where I think there might be some more interoperability. Potential. I think yeah, and I think there there, comes a certain level of governance as well right a need. For a certain level of governance and I. I'm. A. Bit. Well. Cautious. That there, for for. A real governor, for a real interoperability. There, is a need for governance. I, don't, think that we can achieve a pure. Interoperability. Without, governance. Or. I wonder maybe. Maybe, I don't have the real, imagination. How to achieve, interoperability. Without. Governance, without. Human, governance, human, govern for AI government. Interoperable. Humans yeah. Francis. I. Absolutely. Agree with both of them I think, again. From a historical, context perspective. You. Know I'm picking, on the financial, markets I sort of feel like that's always, the entry point for all of this and sort of the most relatable. But. To your, point about governance, the. Fact that most of the people building these projects, do not, understand. The, critical, historical, decisions, made, that. Led to a financial eyes world where bitcoin was born from. Lessons. Like Bretton Woods lessons, like glass-steagall. Understanding. The. Implications of. Deregulating. Derivatives, these are all really. Important lessons that we, need to draw from and. Embed, in to governance levels. Okay. I. Think, that we all fall, back into always. Tokens. And real. Assets and for, even that reason we we think in in, some kind we fall back into, some. Kind of a trusted. Third party, and.
There. Is a difference, between decentralization. And distribution, and. Of course. We. May aim for. Decentralization. But. Today. We, we, know how to do distribution. Right. And I. Guess, there's no absolute I mean if you look at Bitcoin itself there. Is a governance there's, there's the Bitcoin core group right there's certain amount of government governance, there and. What level of governance you want to call that up to you but, so. What governance, it's sort of under undermines, the idea of decentralization. That's. What we're pointing out so. How. Do you see all. These different projects we mean, you mentioned all of them right polka dot. There's. Cosmos. Which is tender MIT based we. Have three, or four different state. Channel off chain. That. People say that will lead to interoperability, do, you believe this David. Do you think whatever. What do you think of the state, channels they're just set the idea is that they'll be able to send like. Might ning 2.0, is that you can send from, bitcoin to aetherium and back to bitcoin you can send tokens is. That I mean, I believe that, you know it's the wild wild west so I, think that, there's, a lot of creativity and a lot of people trying to solve the problems, and that you know there is going to be a lot of compartmentalization. I, believe but I think what needs to change is, that as, I was reading through I'm, really, I don't pretend to be an expert on interoperability, in blockchains, I've been working with various, types of blockchain technologies, and so I think I kind. Of understand, what's going on but I think, some of the claims that people are making when they're saying that they have they're going to be the next Internet, of blockchains, or the blockchain of block chains and so everybody's saying the same thing it's not I think what I hate. To say it but I go back to, you. Know kind, like a broken record but if, you get into the standards, bodies the standards are not unlikely. To beat the developed by an individual, small company you, know you've got very very large entities, that build standards, like the International, Electrotechnical, IEC. You've got I Triple, E you've got National. Institute of Standards these. Are the people that really have to come in and help the industry to decide, how we're. Going to create this these layers of interoperability, because, I think that the, companies, that are all claiming, if, you have a thousand, companies claiming they're the next, Internet. Of blockchains, that's not believable to me I think. That we are still in the phase of experimentation. And it's, very early days as you said and, we. Need to understand, what are the consequences and, what, are we really, trying, to achieve and, it. Is a bit too early to create, any kind of standards. We. Can create. Best, practices. We, can see what what.
We'll Bring to the industry, and from, only that we can then put our, heads together and say okay this is what works this is what hasn't, been really working very well and bring. That to the standardization, bodies, but, that can be created, together, as you know kind of crowd-sourced. Version. Well, what, we are trying to do in hyper, Ledger's bring kind of the freely open, source bring the community together, and, say, okay this, seems. Kind of to be working, we've. Put together you. Know a couple, of thousand developers. Together and let's. Let's see if it works and it's. Exciting, that way but we, can't say okay, well let's sit down three, people together write a standard and now everyone obey. To it it, doesn't work that way yes yeah I, think that's really important point and, particularly, coming from you Martha because you're kind of on the front line being. The head of an ecosystem where there's what six different code bases. Yeah. Five frameworks, five tools six, five codes okay so we're talking about. I provide, your fabric. Warrensburg. Wharram. Is r3 which, is a member, but it's not part of a hyper ledger. Vase, but. There is quilt, which is the under interoperability. Project. That came, to us it. Is the inter layer protocol, implemented. In Java right so we have both tools and ant, frameworks. That are more on the, on. The, kind. Of. Protocol. Level side, of things yeah okay sound. Of agree with I mean I kind of take back what I said a little bit because this, idea that the. Standards bodies are not going to come in and solve the problem the industry has to kind of show them what the potential. Is but I think that's where you have to start working with these bodies and so, I think I appreciate all the open-source work, that's been done in the past it's really a lot of what's, created, most of the standards so I think that that's. A really good thing but David how does that I mean. We look at I mean, we look at Bitcoin and, we look at etherium and they have a core group of developers they're the ones that. Actually put together what. The next flavor is gonna be the. Next version, of Bitcoin, or next version of ëthere. Iam how. Does that work with this this, whole idea in, that type of model work you. Know I mean. That was a started, out small then, became. Bitcoin sort. Of proven in a way I mean. I guess you know there's, been a lot of good. Technologies that have been built by small teams I think the you know focus teams building, things and if it's done really well it could work yeah the. The, governance, issue comes back into plays like you know who's going to decide if. You start changing all, the different, Forks. Of these different technologies and then you've got now you've got. Situations. Where people are coming in and they have open, source technologies. And you got other people wanting to patent, the technologies, because, they don't want people forking, and before everything. Blows up you know so there's a there's an art form of getting, it to work really really well and I, think that's what needs, to happen is, that you just need to mash, up all these technologies. And and really. Find the ones that are working the best in fact I was I was actually speaking at, the National Institute of Standards on, this, technology. About. Cybersecurity and, they. All looked at me and said we don't we have like we have a blueprint, we have this idea of what we want but if you actually come up with something that. Is really really, valuable. We, will actually help you standardize, it so I think that really, the takeaway is I think that we shouldn't be alienate. We shouldn't be thinking that, we can do it on our own I think. We need to move to another especially, when you talk about this interoperability, thing so, do you think I mean, there's a hyper ledger foundation but there's other foundations. Like in the identity space and, IOT. Space there's, IOT there's decentralized. Identity foundation, which, is sort of a creating identity they're based on D ID which. Is w3c, and then there's a trusted, IOT alliance yep which is looking up building smart contracts, for standards. For devices. Do you think this is all good good, things these are nation sort of new, new, foundations. Well the trusted our Tea Alliance I was actually at one of the founding meetings, there I mean that's that's Cisco that's a pretty large company, so I, think they're on the right track it's, just a slow moving its a slow moving train but, it's definitely in the right track I haven't been, involved in the decentralized, that at any foundation, but it sounds like that's and they're going in the right direction as well I, think.
That One. Of the. Particularly. In the identity, space, one. Of the amazing, things is that there is a lot of collaboration, there. I. Think, that identity. Is we. Kind of understand. That, there. Can't be many. Identity. Solutions out there so. Linux. Foundation and, hyper ledger is part of I think almost. All, of the IDA but, we are kind of. Associate. Members, of each other so, this. Is I associate, member of hyper. Ledger we are Associates of DIF and we, are working closely with the ID and ID. 2020. And so on and so forth and we are really trying to and endi is, our identity project. Part of sovereign foundation, so, we are trying really to, figure. Out that space together because. It is, the future right we need kind, we block. Gene or not blockchain, we need to figure out identity. Of the future, for. Humans, and non-humans, yeah, it's absolutely essential. For inclusion, and and. Getting, to the unbanked in the world absolutely. So. Francis II would, you like to yeah. I think I just. Add that you know I think much. Like the internet was. Never ever adequate, at any given point in time was, driven to scale and evolve. Through. Tangible. Problems. Needs demand, I. Think this space even, though it's sort of on, a. Super. Exponential, speed because it's built on, the. Fact that we have a lot of ubiquitous, global connection. But. Also all. Of these things I think I. Agree, with Marta we're in the experimental, phase right now but there hasn't been. Clear. You, know things, that have reared their heads that have demanded, the entire space to, really focus in and build it and I, think it'll happen, over, time. Okay. Andrew. Do you think we can ask some questions. We're. Gonna encourage people to like get you at the party after a couple of drinks okay, all, right.